1. This is just an unsubstantiated argument, for an undisputable point. But I'll indulge you. What's the point of flying an unmanned drone into combat, if it's going to be destroyed as soon as it leaves the hangar?
2. The only canon examples of a fighter in Star Trek is the Scorpion from Nemesis. Which was a poorly conceived plot device to facilitate Data, and Picard's escape. And the Jem Hadar, who's purpose is to fight, and die for the Dominion, using superior numbers. The next closest things were the planetary defense force that tried to make an attack run on the Borg cube, and were summarily, dispatched in one or two shots, if I remember correctly.
Maneuverability is not a factor, as you cannot outfly faster-than-light targeting slaved to computers that are trillions of teraflops more powerful than today's machines. The physics of 24th century combat dictate that you ARE going to get hit.
The warp core of a modern Starship is several decks high, with an entire engineering department running them. This is what delivers power to not only run the entire ship, but provide power to it's shielding, and weapons through the EPS manifold. Shuttles, and fighters do not have warp cores that are several decks high. They don't have an entire engineering department managing them. It's because of this that I have a problem with shuttles being warp capable at all. Why not just put shuttle size warp cores in starships? Anyway, it would only be logical then to assume that a cruiser size vessel has a proportionately larger power reservoir to draw on, when compared to fighters and other such craft. Ergo, smaller craft simply can't generate the power needed to penetrate the larger vessel's shielding, nor generate enough power to bolster their own shields from an attack by the significantly, larger craft, armed with proportionately, stronger weapons.
Well, on this, you also have to figure how much power is being sucked off to purposes other than combat, such as Sickbay, Medlabs, life support, even those trillions upon trillions of little lights blinking and flickering. Whereas a shuttle, does not have such huge power demands, so in that sense, yes, a smaller warp core would be technically capable of providing enough combat power to be dangerous.
As far as the large ships processing power for targeting, yes, it is indeed capable. However, when you have an intelligent, not necessarily totally logical flight paths, a computer is NOT going to hit 100% of the time. Which is the precise purpose of having someone control a fighter craft (whether by flying it, or by remote. The targeting computer can say "This craft, based on current patterns of flight, should be at x,y,z coordinates at this time." However, the pilot being targeted might end up being at x-2, y+10. z-80. Thus, the firing solution was incorrect, and misses.
Now someone else was presenting the argument, where in the hell is all this stuff being stored (especially the torp launcher ammo). Now THAT argument, I can see. If a large ship, with x launcher that does x damage, has ammo that is a particular size, then a shuttle with x launcher, that does x damage, should also require that same ammo. So on that one, I agree, where would the fighter or shuttle be stuffing all that ammo. And replicator tech wouldn't overcome the fact that space just isn't there to store, whether it's the torps themselves, or the raw materials to replicate the torps out of. Whereas, at least, if you have a fighter or shuttle armed only with energy weaponry, it at least would solve that little conundrum.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
so the Starfleet CAN'T have a carrier because they are all about exploration and are non military?
well Then I guess the War that Starfleet have been fighting with he Klingons is just some little bar fight, and the Federation dreadnought? NO that isn't a combat ship Starfleet would never build a warship, that would put too many lives at risk
Trust me if there are 2 ships of equal strength 1 of those ship having fighters would make all of the difference
what I don't understand is why there are people opposed to this would you be opposed to this if this was another KDF carrier?
NO Because you all seem to think that the KDF should be the only ones with carriers, that is crazy that is like saying that America is the only country that can have missile destroyers and only france can have cruisers with china being the only country that can have carriers but they can only use helicopters on those carriers
that whole idea is crazy especially when the type of ship we are talking about it a carrier(usually the flagships of the fleets)
so the Starfleet CAN'T have a carrier because they are all about exploration and are non military?
well Then I guess the War that Starfleet have been fighting with he Klingons is just some little bar fight, and the Federation dreadnought? NO that isn't a combat ship Starfleet would never build a warship, that would put too many lives at risk
Trust me if there are 2 ships of equal strength 1 of those ship having fighters would make all of the difference
what I don't understand is why there are people opposed to this would you be opposed to this if this was another KDF carrier?
NO Because you all seem to think that the KDF should be the only ones with carriers, that is crazy that is like saying that America is the only country that can have missile destroyers and only france can have cruisers with china being the only country that can have carriers but they can only use helicopters on those carriers
that whole idea is crazy especially when the type of ship we are talking about it a carrier(usually the flagships of the fleets)
Sure carriers are the flagships of fleets TODAY.
4 centuries from now, not so much when other ships can do the job and do it better. Again in Star Trek, fighters are attrition style ships. You send them out, there's going to be a lot of mothers and fathers getting letters from star fleet regretting to inform them that their child has been Killed in Action.
I mean it doesn't take much for a star ship to blow through a shuttle/fighter's shields like they don't exist and destroy the fighter.
Klingons don't care about casualties like the Federation do. They consider it an honor to fly into combat like that and die gloriously in battle. Feds not so much.
I mean seriously, you want to strap on a Peregrine fighter and get told "go attack that Neg'Var battle cruiser." Bet you 10 credits most of that squadron isn't coming back alive.
Think the federation wants to deal with that? Not a chance in hell.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Now I'm assuming you don't use advanced fighters because they are crappy but the advanced fighters I have can take on ships by themselves and survive
I have advanced fighters, and how many times do you hit for a new batch of fighters to come out during a battle. 5, 6 times? I have.
Everytime you lose a squadron of 3 ships flying peregrines for example. Thats what 3-6 people you just sent to their deaths in game land.
Now as players yes it's just electronic nothing. But if it was real, would you feel comfortable sending out a squadron of 12 ships and probably losing 4-9 of them in an attack when you could of sent in 2 frigates and not lost a soul?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I have advanced fighters, and how many times do you hit for a new batch of fighters to come out during a battle. 5, 6 times? I have.
Everytime you lose a squadron of 3 ships flying peregrines for example. Thats what 3-6 people you just sent to their deaths in game land.
Now as players yes it's just electronic nothing. But if it was real, would you feel comfortable sending out a squadron of 12 ships and probably losing 4-9 of them in an attack when you could of sent in 2 frigates and not lost a soul?
This is a further reason to assume the fighters launched by Starfleet are remotes. It also would explain why you can only have at most twelve fighters out. Only twelve consoles/transmitters.
Also when I fly a frigate I get hit and lose about twenty crew that just miraculously regenerate. As opposed to one. My bigger ships lose hundreds to over a thousand from prolonged combat. If I can send twelve fighters or six-hundred souls in a capital sip which is preferable?
As to what will the future command ship look like?
Well oddly the romulans in my opinion should be flying missile boats. The why on that is that they are the masters of cloaks. Cloaked ship drops off a cloaked missile or three. Those large warheads find a nice juicy target and removes it without the launching vessel taking a scratch. Because if you note, ships generally do not fly around with their shields up. They have to know something is wrong first.
And honestly that is what missiles/torpedoes should be for. Energy weapons have infinite shots but very finite range. Those projectiles however can go a very long distance and still do serious damage.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
This is a further reason to assume the fighters launched by Starfleet are remotes. It also would explain why you can only have at most twelve fighters out. Only twelve consoles/transmitters.
Also when I fly a frigate I get hit and lose about twenty crew that just miraculously regenerate. As opposed to one. My bigger ships lose hundreds to over a thousand from prolonged combat. If I can send twelve fighters or six-hundred souls in a capital sip which is preferable?
As to what will the future command ship look like?
Well oddly the romulans in my opinion should be flying missile boats. The why on that is that they are the masters of cloaks. Cloaked ship drops off a cloaked missile or three. Those large warheads find a nice juicy target and removes it without the launching vessel taking a scratch. Because if you note, ships generally do not fly around with their shields up. They have to know something is wrong first.
And honestly that is what missiles/torpedoes should be for. Energy weapons have infinite shots but very finite range. Those projectiles however can go a very long distance and still do serious damage.
They could be remotes, but considering you do missions in a run about, or like me I own a peregrine, I'm going to just assume the fact they are manned fighters.
Far as the crew, beats the hell out of me. Half the time I just consider most of the crew like the EMH. They get damaged and have to re-install.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
2. The only canon examples of a fighter in Star Trek is the Scorpion from Nemesis. Which was a poorly conceived plot device to facilitate Data, and Picard's escape. And the Jem Hadar, who's purpose is to fight, and die for the Dominion, using superior numbers. The next closest things were the planetary defense force that tried to make an attack run on the Borg cube, and were summarily, dispatched in one or two shots, if I remember correctly.
Those were Federation fighters used in those episodes of DS9. That is canonically established.
And those craft you mention from "The Best of Both Worlds" were not manned fighters, but armed sentry drone pods from the Starfleet Mars Defense Perimeter.
The Hideki Class was routinely used as an attack fighter by the Cardassian Union.
In the Delta Quadrant, the Talaxians, Vaadwaur, Kyrians, and Rakosans used fighters.
In addition to the Romulan/Reman Scorpion, Federation Attack Fighter, Cardassian Hideki Class, and Jem'Hadar fighter, the Maquis used armed shuttles (that were smaller than their raiders) as fighters. The Seronians were another Alpha Quadrant race that used fighters in recent history.
In the 22nd Century, the Vulcans used fighters.
As you can see, there was plenty of canon use of space/aerospace fighter craft.
So, your claim that there were only two or three canon examples of fighter craft in Star Trek is false.
Now someone else was presenting the argument, where in the hell is all this stuff being stored (especially the torp launcher ammo). Now THAT argument, I can see. If a large ship, with x launcher that does x damage, has ammo that is a particular size, then a shuttle with x launcher, that does x damage, should also require that same ammo. So on that one, I agree, where would the fighter or shuttle be stuffing all that ammo. And replicator tech wouldn't overcome the fact that space just isn't there to store, whether it's the torps themselves, or the raw materials to replicate the torps out of. Whereas, at least, if you have a fighter or shuttle armed only with energy weaponry, it at least would solve that little conundrum.
It occurs to me that a fighter/shuttle could keep full sized ordinance in a transporter buffer and simply materialize them in their launcher as needed. Though those shuttles/runabouts usually don't seem to have enough space to even accommodate a launcher. But then I believe the delta flyer at least claimed to be using "micro photon torpedoes" but even then...
They could be remotes, but considering you do missions in a run about, or like me I own a peregrine, I'm going to just assume the fact they are manned fighters.
Far as the crew, beats the hell out of me. Half the time I just consider most of the crew like the EMH. They get damaged and have to re-install.
In gene roddenberry's andromeda, their fighters had cockpits so that they could be flown manually, but they could also be piloted remotely from the ship or use ai. There's no reason why federation carriers couldn't have fighters and shuttles and runabouts that are able to be piloted but are generally used in combat with the pilots safely on the ship flying by remote or simply using AI being commanded by the tactical officer on the bridge.
It's rather amusing to me how much of this thread has been wasted on fussing over the uber casualties of manned fighters when we've covered repeatedly how that could be completely circumvented. Not to mention the fact that one does not lose crew when launching fighters but one loses crew when sending a boarding party... this would suggest that the fighters are not manned.
No shuttles don't have the huge power demands of a cruiser. And they don't have the huge power plants of a cruiser either. And if size of the warp core, is any indication of power of the warp core, then the cruiser's output is going to be exponentially, stronger than the shuttle's, even if everything that can be turned on, is turned on, in the cruiser. It's matter/anti-matter annihilation. A little dab will do ya.
Starships target their weapons through tachyons in their deflectors. Tachyons are faster than light. The tachyons fly out, hit the target, and fly back to the ship, where the computer does it's firing solutions, in real time, similar to a radar. Only a faster than light speed radar, if you will. This is how starships track each other through warp. So basically, once that target is "painted", unless there is something wrong with the computer, that's where the beams are going. There isn't going to be any last minute dodges, or evasion, as no pilot possesses faster than light speed reflexes. It's faster than laser targeting, and barring any active countermeasures or computer error, it's going to hit 100% of the time. See?
And yet we have countless examples of ships missing their targets without any known countermeasures/malfunctions/sabotage. It's possible that this faster than light sensor system can also detect inbound fire and react quickly enough to nudge the ship a smidge this way or that to avoid some incoming fire while the pilot deals more with the general heading of the ship. That, or for story-sake, the writers simply allow missing your target to happen, logic be damned.
The Hideki Class was routinely used as an attack fighter by the Cardassian Union.
and Jem'Hadar fighter
Despite the names, the Hideki Class and the Bug Ship are Defiant or B'Rel like escort type ships.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
This is a further reason to assume the fighters launched by Starfleet are remotes. It also would explain why you can only have at most twelve fighters out. Only twelve consoles/transmitters.
Remotes or no, fighters ain't a match or even nuisance for bigger ships. Ingame, single FAW/CSV will wipe out entire squadron while keeping out of firing range of your carrier. They simply ain't a threat to anything save NPCs that don't have spam clears.
Also when I fly a frigate I get hit and lose about twenty crew that just miraculously regenerate. As opposed to one. My bigger ships lose hundreds to over a thousand from prolonged combat. If I can send twelve fighters or six-hundred souls in a capital sip which is preferable?
That crew isn't dead, it's either busy doing repairs/keeping things from falling apart and therefore unavailable for anything else, or is wounded and in sickbay/triage. Crew that gets hurt on capital ship can be healed and therefore recovered. Pilot that blew up in a fighter cannot.
As to what will the future command ship look like?
Well oddly the romulans in my opinion should be flying missile boats. The why on that is that they are the masters of cloaks. Cloaked ship drops off a cloaked missile or three. Those large warheads find a nice juicy target and removes it without the launching vessel taking a scratch. Because if you note, ships generally do not fly around with their shields up. They have to know something is wrong first.
If this tactic gets implemented, you can bet any opposing groups will have their ships shields on around the clock. And a lot of sensor tech development to counter it. However, if enemy doesn't expect you or cannot detect you and has their shields down, you can just as well decloak and nuke him with normal torpedoes, without added cost and complexity of adding cloak to them.
I also unsure if torpedo/missile even has enough juice to even activate cloak. It would really be quite expensive thing to produce, probably a lot bigger than usual torpedo to store additional batteries to hold the cloak (even for that short period of time), and just useless addition if enemy comes prepared. You can simply fire missiles from high distance under cloak and swiftly reposition in that case, and repeat the process until enemy is destroyed or decides to run away.
And honestly that is what missiles/torpedoes should be for. Energy weapons have infinite shots but very finite range. Those projectiles however can go a very long distance and still do serious damage.
Missiles are vulnerable to counter-measures (barring standard one of a shield facing ). ECM, point defense systems etc.
Well, since this thread is apparently supposed to be about a fed style carrier, I'll toss in my idea.
Jupiter Class Dreadnought Carrier
40,000 Hull (44,000 on fleet version)
1.2 shield mod (1.32 on fleet version)
5 Turn rate
4000 Crew
Same inertia as the Vo'Quv
3/3 weapon slots
4 device slots
4 eng consoles
4 sci consoles
1 tac console (2 on the fleet version)
As for a special console, it could have a console that would grant an ability that would give a moderate size hull and shield heal to all the players hanger pets, with a 3 minute cool down.
Boffs:
Cmdr eng
Lt cmdr sci
Lt sci
Lt tac
2 Hanger bays, which would come standard with Peregrine fighters
The Jupiter would have access to a hanger pet that no other carrier could use: [Hanger - Miranda Class Frigates], possibly with a Centaur or Shi'Kahr skin on the advanced and/or elite versions.
They would be armed with phaser arrays and photon torpedoes (quantum torpedoes on advanced and elite versions). As for powers, they would have
emergency power to engines 1
extend shields 1 (2 for advanced and 3 for elite)
engineering team 1 (2 for advanced and 3 for elite)
What do you guys think?
Winning.
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tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
Once again, the topic here is not fighters, but carriers. "It is time Starfleet made their own full size carrier?" To which my retort is "No it is not, and here's why." Starfleet does not willingly put people in ships and send them to their deaths, attracting fire from larger vessels. Which as my previous posts on the subject have demonstrated, is all they would basically be doing, without exhausting all other options first.
And again, FYI, the Peregrines were not originally designed to engage larger starships in combat. They were courier ships.
Again, with remote control technology the "sending people to their deaths" thing is completely negated, so we really should stop bringing that up as an excuse.
Remotes or no, fighters ain't a match or even nuisance for bigger ships. Ingame, single FAW/CSV will wipe out entire squadron while keeping out of firing range of your carrier. They simply ain't a threat to anything save NPCs that don't have spam clears.
Insurrection: Data in the mission scout ship. A one man shuttle sized vessel. "Caused significant damage" to a chel grett.
Later in the captain's yacht. (shudder. should have been captain's gig.) Uses tachyon bursts to force the ship to lower her shields and reset them.
One fighter was a significant nuisance. A squadron could have been deadly.
That crew isn't dead, it's either busy doing repairs/keeping things from falling apart and therefore unavailable for anything else, or is wounded and in sickbay/triage. Crew that gets hurt on capital ship can be healed and therefore recovered. Pilot that blew up in a fighter cannot.
Must be sickbay because reduced crew supposedly reduces your hull regeneration. IE repair rate.
If this tactic gets implemented, you can bet any opposing groups will have their ships shields on around the clock. And a lot of sensor tech development to counter it. However, if enemy doesn't expect you or cannot detect you and has their shields down, you can just as well decloak and nuke him with normal torpedoes, without added cost and complexity of adding cloak to them.
I also unsure if torpedo/missile even has enough juice to even activate cloak. It would really be quite expensive thing to produce, probably a lot bigger than usual torpedo to store additional batteries to hold the cloak (even for that short period of time), and just useless addition if enemy comes prepared. You can simply fire missiles from high distance under cloak and swiftly reposition in that case, and repeat the process until enemy is destroyed or decides to run away.
They never bothered coming up with much counter measures to the two cloak capable races before. They just rather blithely continue as though everything is rosey in the tactics free land. Also I mentioned romulans because they are the ones that could in theory produce cloaks cheaply enough to make use on heavy ordinance practical. Stealth missile fire is part of the point on a cruise missile. It flies low and alters course to avoid detection till it can reach it's target unhindered. A cloak is just a step up on the concept.
Missiles are vulnerable to counter-measures (barring standard one of a shield facing ). ECM, point defense systems etc.
All counter measures are active devices that need to be turned on. A US warship was once hit by a missile because it did not have those active. Same holds true in ST universe. So a cloaked ordinance would be killer.
Way off op on missile boats but it has a point.
Why can't carriers of any faction cloak?
Game balance I assume makes it so you cannot be out killing things without the threat of return fire.
With live pilots it makes sense in universe. Unless those fighters are remote piloted and a cloak would interfere with the controls
Oh and supporting that they can be both manned and unmanned. Picard remote pilots his runabout to cut off the power beam between the Enterprise and a romulan warbird.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
It's possible that a little green Martian warps in and catches the beam in a pocket black hole before it hits the target, too. anything is possible in STO. See how you're basically just reaching for far fetched explanations, now? Seriously, I don't think you understand how fast "faster than light" is. It's instantaneous.
Don't condescend to me. In this theoretical universe of faster than light sensors, the same technology that should allow for near flawless target lock also allows the target to detect incoming fire and react to it near instantaneously. Weapons in star trek do not travel at faster than light speeds unless fired while at warp. Torpedoes have field sustainers that allow them to maintain warp if fired at warp but not jump from sub-light to warp, and phaser type weapons use the applied phlebotinum of annular confinement beam jackets to allow them to be used at warp. So since the target vessel has faster than light sensors and is being fired on by weapons that travel at or below the speed of light, there is the possibility of detecting and evading such fire, particularly with sufficiently powerful engines capable of moving the vessel out of the way quickly enough.
All of that theoretical science fiction technology debate aside, it's already well established that the writers allow for "misses" and a whole host of other plot devices that don't make sense given the fictional technology they are supposed to be equipped with, so, again, attempting to apply logic or reality to the situation will never be fruitful.
Remotes or no, fighters ain't a match or even nuisance for bigger ships. Ingame, single FAW/CSV will wipe out entire squadron while keeping out of firing range of your carrier. They simply ain't a threat to anything save NPCs that don't have spam clears.
You are right, when going against a spam clearing ship, a spam ship can be forced to near exclusively rely on it's native weapons, particularly in one on one. But not all ships in game carry spam clear skills, and in those cases, fighters and other launchables can be used to fantastic effect. And the existence of fire at will and cannon scatter volley is no reason why the federation should not be developing and deploying its own carrier. Especially considering the reason given for commissioning the atrox from the catians was to address the threat of klingon carriers. That should merely have been a stop gap measure while they developed and constructed their own carriers.
Well, since this thread is apparently supposed to be about a fed style carrier, I'll toss in my idea.
Jupiter Class Dreadnought Carrier
40,000 Hull (44,000 on fleet version)
1.2 shield mod (1.32 on fleet version)
5 Turn rate
4000 Crew
Same inertia as the Vo'Quv
3/3 weapon slots
4 device slots
4 eng consoles
4 sci consoles
1 tac console (2 on the fleet version)
As for a special console, it could have a console that would grant an ability that would give a moderate size hull and shield heal to all the players hanger pets, with a 3 minute cool down.
Boffs:
Cmdr eng
Lt cmdr sci
Lt sci
Lt tac
2 Hanger bays, which would come standard with Peregrine fighters
The Jupiter would have access to a hanger pet that no other carrier could use: [Hanger - Miranda Class Frigates], possibly with a Centaur or Shi'Kahr skin on the advanced and/or elite versions.
They would be armed with phaser arrays and photon torpedoes (quantum torpedoes on advanced and elite versions). As for powers, they would have
emergency power to engines 1
extend shields 1 (2 for advanced and 3 for elite)
engineering team 1 (2 for advanced and 3 for elite)
What do you guys think?
The jupiter sounds pretty standard, so nothing anyone should be too cry baby about, though carriers with just four boffs usually have two lt.coms, so it either needs an ensign or another lt.com. The frigate pets with mild combat abilities and support features seems quite spiffy to me, though I'm not sure I would trust them to use their extends and heals responsibly. Would they spread out and support your teammates or would they be using all that support on the mother ship? Using it just on each other? using it on the mother ship and each other? Seems like it could be a nightmare to program them to be even remotely effective.
Well, since this thread is apparently supposed to be about a fed style carrier, I'll toss in my idea.
Jupiter Class Dreadnought Carrier
40,000 Hull (44,000 on fleet version)
1.2 shield mod (1.32 on fleet version)
5 Turn rate
4000 Crew
Same inertia as the Vo'Quv
3/3 weapon slots
4 device slots
4 eng consoles
4 sci consoles
1 tac console (2 on the fleet version)
As for a special console, it could have a console that would grant an ability that would give a moderate size hull and shield heal to all the players hanger pets, with a 3 minute cool down.
Boffs:
Cmdr eng
Lt cmdr sci
Lt sci
Lt tac
2 Hanger bays, which would come standard with Peregrine fighters
The Jupiter would have access to a hanger pet that no other carrier could use: [Hanger - Miranda Class Frigates], possibly with a Centaur or Shi'Kahr skin on the advanced and/or elite versions.
They would be armed with phaser arrays and photon torpedoes (quantum torpedoes on advanced and elite versions). As for powers, they would have
emergency power to engines 1
extend shields 1 (2 for advanced and 3 for elite)
engineering team 1 (2 for advanced and 3 for elite)
What do you guys think?
Seems nice enough, if there were ever a Starfleet carrier to be made, though I have to wonder how you justify the Fleet version of this ship getting a full .22 increase in shield modifier over the Fleet Vo'Quv. It's not the hullpoints, because the Fleet Vo'Quv only has 46k compared to 44k you're suggesting.
Scale back that shield mod a tad and you've got a nice workable Federation equivalent to the Vo'Quv, albeit more engineering focused than science. . .then again, the Federation is absolutely NOT hurting for science options right now.
Once again, the topic here is not fighters, but carriers. "It is time Starfleet made their own full size carrier?" To which my retort is "No it is not, and here's why." Starfleet does not willingly put people in ships and send them to their deaths, attracting fire from larger vessels. Which as my previous posts on the subject have demonstrated, is all they would basically be doing, without exhausting all other options first.
And again, FYI, the Peregrines were not originally designed to engage larger starships in combat. They were courier ships.
Regardless of the thread topic, your comment was a statement regarding the canon status of fighters. That was what I was addressing.
And canon has demonstrated that Starfleet uses manned fighters. Whether or not it's done willingly is irrelevant and a subject of speculation only. Either way, it was proven effective in the Dominion War. Therefore, it makes sense that in the wars of STO's era, Starfleet would use a proven "force multiplier" in combat operations. And by extention, carriers to support such craft in long term operations.
The actual fighter's name was never firmly established in canon, other than "Federation Attack Fighter" (despite it's parent design being called the Peregrine Class). However, the design's origins (which I am aware of, by the way) are irrelevant. The Maquis proved that the basic design had potential as a fighter/light combat craft. Starfleet also used them as flight trainers. Just as the USAF found that some training aircraft made excellent combat platforms, it stands to reason that Starfleet commissioned a fighter based on a combat proven utility craft.
As for small craft (like fighters) taking hits from capital ships, we routinely saw Danube Class runabouts take hits from such over the course of DS9's run. And runabouts are basically overgrown shuttles. It been shown in various DS9 episodes that well armed, rugged small craft, with trained operators and proper tactics can be a serious combat threat to larger ships. And can survive such encounters in the process. Sure, the losses would be higher in large-scale fleet actions. But it wouldn't be much better in lighter warships, judging from the losses suffered by Jem'Hadar Attack Ships, B'rel Birds of Prey, and Miranda Class Frigates.
Despite the names, the Hideki Class and the Bug Ship are Defiant or B'Rel like escort type ships.
True, the Hideki is overly large for a "fighter" at roughly 150 meters in length. But despite it's size, and use as a patrol/picket ship like traditional corvettes and frigates, it was touted as the Union's answer to the Danube runabout (a rugged, multipurpose small vessel that can fill a variety of roles). The tiny crew (3-5 personnel) seems to support this (compared to the crew complement of 43 for the JHAS and 50 (or so) for the Defiant Class). And it was routinely used as a heavy attack fighter, which it was designed to do.
There is, however, some evidence (from valid source material) that the Hideki was based on information leaked/stolen from the Defiant's specifications.
Insurrection: Data in the mission scout ship. A one man shuttle sized vessel. "Caused significant damage" to a chel grett.
There were no Breen in that movie, you probably mean Son'a ship.
Later in the captain's yacht. (shudder. should have been captain's gig.) Uses tachyon bursts to force the ship to lower her shields and reset them.
One fighter was a significant nuisance. A squadron could have been deadly.
And if that Son'a ship simply used subspace weapons and instavaped both Data's scout and Picard's chick magnet, healing radiation be damned, we wouldn't have the movie, wouldn't we?
I'm talking about pure contest of ship's respective offense/defense capabilities, not situational plot devices. Son'a ship would vape both of those vessels with it's firepower hands down in open combat.
Must be sickbay because reduced crew supposedly reduces your hull regeneration. IE repair rate.
Or part of crew is just trying to keep the ship fall apart by stopping fires, evacuating damaged areas, or just damn trying to stay alive, thus not being overly helpful in using their magical powers of reverting time and putting the destroyed parts back (or whatever explanation you can figure out for skills like ET/HE/AtSIF).
They never bothered coming up with much counter measures to the two cloak capable races before. They just rather blithely continue as though everything is rosey in the tactics free land.
Which is a bit dumb, but I think Federation probably works on countering cloak tech, just isn't so open about it.
Also I mentioned romulans because they are the ones that could in theory produce cloaks cheaply enough to make use on heavy ordinance practical. Stealth missile fire is part of the point on a cruise missile. It flies low and alters course to avoid detection till it can reach it's target unhindered. A cloak is just a step up on the concept.
Well, considering there were cloaked scientists in Insurrection, which is fed tech, it might actually be feasible.
All counter measures are active devices that need to be turned on. A US warship was once hit by a missile because it did not have those active. Same holds true in ST universe. So a cloaked ordinance would be killer. Way off op on missile boats but it has a point.
Anything that gets hit while their shields are down in ST is in dire straits, if attacker has relatively comparable tech or better. Cloaked ships using cloaked projectiles would be deadly, especially if one side managed to develop and mass produce it without anyone else knowing.
With live pilots it makes sense in universe. Unless those fighters are remote piloted and a cloak would interfere with the controls.
Oh and supporting that they can be both manned and unmanned. Picard remote pilots his runabout to cut off the power beam between the Enterprise and a romulan warbird.
If cloak doesn't affect targeting and sensors, I doubt it would mess up controls. It was never my point, I just believe fighter are useless AGAINST CONSIDERABLY LARGER vessel. They just don't have firepower to take it down fast enough as it can take them out.
As I stated before, that doesn't mean fighter/shuttle sized vessels are useless. They can perform reasonably well against other fighter/shuttles/raiders. They just don't have any use in large scale battles, against vessels that can create literal walls of phaser/beam fire and torpedo volleys. And unlike in the game, you really don't have infinite supply of fighters in hangar bays. Unless someone invents CAPSULE tech.
I don't think you understand how fast "faster than light" is. It's instantaneous.
WRONG my car can go faster than light and since YOU know nothing about physics you would not know that the speed of light is Not always the fastest thing in the universe,
for example when flying through sodium light only travels at 38km/h through sodium to if there is a huge electromagnetic shield imagine how much that would slow down the laser targeting
You are right, when going against a spam clearing ship, a spam ship can be forced to near exclusively rely on it's native weapons, particularly in one on one. But not all ships in game carry spam clear skills, and in those cases, fighters and other launchables can be used to fantastic effect.
I don't know anyone save Tholian spawns to use FAW. If more NPCs did, people wouldn't even bother with carriers for PvE/STFs. I also see no reason why anyone who does PvE content regularly wouldn't have at least one FAW/CSV/TS on their repertoire.
I can't comment about PvP though, I don't do it...yet.
And the existence of fire at will and cannon scatter volley is no reason why the federation should not be developing and deploying its own carrier. Especially considering the reason given for commissioning the atrox from the catians was to address the threat of klingon carriers. That should merely have been a stop gap measure while they developed and constructed their own carriers.
Or they simply decided to spend those resources developing Avenger? Firepower, survivability, VATA/cruiser command and ability to use cloak if needed.
I personally don't know what actual purpose carriers do have in this game, to be honest.
Comments
Well, on this, you also have to figure how much power is being sucked off to purposes other than combat, such as Sickbay, Medlabs, life support, even those trillions upon trillions of little lights blinking and flickering. Whereas a shuttle, does not have such huge power demands, so in that sense, yes, a smaller warp core would be technically capable of providing enough combat power to be dangerous.
As far as the large ships processing power for targeting, yes, it is indeed capable. However, when you have an intelligent, not necessarily totally logical flight paths, a computer is NOT going to hit 100% of the time. Which is the precise purpose of having someone control a fighter craft (whether by flying it, or by remote. The targeting computer can say "This craft, based on current patterns of flight, should be at x,y,z coordinates at this time." However, the pilot being targeted might end up being at x-2, y+10. z-80. Thus, the firing solution was incorrect, and misses.
Now someone else was presenting the argument, where in the hell is all this stuff being stored (especially the torp launcher ammo). Now THAT argument, I can see. If a large ship, with x launcher that does x damage, has ammo that is a particular size, then a shuttle with x launcher, that does x damage, should also require that same ammo. So on that one, I agree, where would the fighter or shuttle be stuffing all that ammo. And replicator tech wouldn't overcome the fact that space just isn't there to store, whether it's the torps themselves, or the raw materials to replicate the torps out of. Whereas, at least, if you have a fighter or shuttle armed only with energy weaponry, it at least would solve that little conundrum.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
well Then I guess the War that Starfleet have been fighting with he Klingons is just some little bar fight, and the Federation dreadnought? NO that isn't a combat ship Starfleet would never build a warship, that would put too many lives at risk
Trust me if there are 2 ships of equal strength 1 of those ship having fighters would make all of the difference
what I don't understand is why there are people opposed to this would you be opposed to this if this was another KDF carrier?
NO Because you all seem to think that the KDF should be the only ones with carriers, that is crazy that is like saying that America is the only country that can have missile destroyers and only france can have cruisers with china being the only country that can have carriers but they can only use helicopters on those carriers
that whole idea is crazy especially when the type of ship we are talking about it a carrier(usually the flagships of the fleets)
4 centuries from now, not so much when other ships can do the job and do it better. Again in Star Trek, fighters are attrition style ships. You send them out, there's going to be a lot of mothers and fathers getting letters from star fleet regretting to inform them that their child has been Killed in Action.
I mean it doesn't take much for a star ship to blow through a shuttle/fighter's shields like they don't exist and destroy the fighter.
Klingons don't care about casualties like the Federation do. They consider it an honor to fly into combat like that and die gloriously in battle. Feds not so much.
I mean seriously, you want to strap on a Peregrine fighter and get told "go attack that Neg'Var battle cruiser." Bet you 10 credits most of that squadron isn't coming back alive.
Think the federation wants to deal with that? Not a chance in hell.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
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I have advanced fighters, and how many times do you hit for a new batch of fighters to come out during a battle. 5, 6 times? I have.
Everytime you lose a squadron of 3 ships flying peregrines for example. Thats what 3-6 people you just sent to their deaths in game land.
Now as players yes it's just electronic nothing. But if it was real, would you feel comfortable sending out a squadron of 12 ships and probably losing 4-9 of them in an attack when you could of sent in 2 frigates and not lost a soul?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
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This is a further reason to assume the fighters launched by Starfleet are remotes. It also would explain why you can only have at most twelve fighters out. Only twelve consoles/transmitters.
Also when I fly a frigate I get hit and lose about twenty crew that just miraculously regenerate. As opposed to one. My bigger ships lose hundreds to over a thousand from prolonged combat. If I can send twelve fighters or six-hundred souls in a capital sip which is preferable?
As to what will the future command ship look like?
Well oddly the romulans in my opinion should be flying missile boats. The why on that is that they are the masters of cloaks. Cloaked ship drops off a cloaked missile or three. Those large warheads find a nice juicy target and removes it without the launching vessel taking a scratch. Because if you note, ships generally do not fly around with their shields up. They have to know something is wrong first.
And honestly that is what missiles/torpedoes should be for. Energy weapons have infinite shots but very finite range. Those projectiles however can go a very long distance and still do serious damage.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
They could be remotes, but considering you do missions in a run about, or like me I own a peregrine, I'm going to just assume the fact they are manned fighters.
Far as the crew, beats the hell out of me. Half the time I just consider most of the crew like the EMH. They get damaged and have to re-install.
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Those were Federation fighters used in those episodes of DS9. That is canonically established.
And those craft you mention from "The Best of Both Worlds" were not manned fighters, but armed sentry drone pods from the Starfleet Mars Defense Perimeter.
The Hideki Class was routinely used as an attack fighter by the Cardassian Union.
In the Delta Quadrant, the Talaxians, Vaadwaur, Kyrians, and Rakosans used fighters.
In addition to the Romulan/Reman Scorpion, Federation Attack Fighter, Cardassian Hideki Class, and Jem'Hadar fighter, the Maquis used armed shuttles (that were smaller than their raiders) as fighters. The Seronians were another Alpha Quadrant race that used fighters in recent history.
In the 22nd Century, the Vulcans used fighters.
As you can see, there was plenty of canon use of space/aerospace fighter craft.
So, your claim that there were only two or three canon examples of fighter craft in Star Trek is false.
It occurs to me that a fighter/shuttle could keep full sized ordinance in a transporter buffer and simply materialize them in their launcher as needed. Though those shuttles/runabouts usually don't seem to have enough space to even accommodate a launcher. But then I believe the delta flyer at least claimed to be using "micro photon torpedoes" but even then...
In gene roddenberry's andromeda, their fighters had cockpits so that they could be flown manually, but they could also be piloted remotely from the ship or use ai. There's no reason why federation carriers couldn't have fighters and shuttles and runabouts that are able to be piloted but are generally used in combat with the pilots safely on the ship flying by remote or simply using AI being commanded by the tactical officer on the bridge.
It's rather amusing to me how much of this thread has been wasted on fussing over the uber casualties of manned fighters when we've covered repeatedly how that could be completely circumvented. Not to mention the fact that one does not lose crew when launching fighters but one loses crew when sending a boarding party... this would suggest that the fighters are not manned.
And yet we have countless examples of ships missing their targets without any known countermeasures/malfunctions/sabotage. It's possible that this faster than light sensor system can also detect inbound fire and react quickly enough to nudge the ship a smidge this way or that to avoid some incoming fire while the pilot deals more with the general heading of the ship. That, or for story-sake, the writers simply allow missing your target to happen, logic be damned.
Despite the names, the Hideki Class and the Bug Ship are Defiant or B'Rel like escort type ships.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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Remotes or no, fighters ain't a match or even nuisance for bigger ships. Ingame, single FAW/CSV will wipe out entire squadron while keeping out of firing range of your carrier. They simply ain't a threat to anything save NPCs that don't have spam clears.
That crew isn't dead, it's either busy doing repairs/keeping things from falling apart and therefore unavailable for anything else, or is wounded and in sickbay/triage. Crew that gets hurt on capital ship can be healed and therefore recovered. Pilot that blew up in a fighter cannot.
If this tactic gets implemented, you can bet any opposing groups will have their ships shields on around the clock. And a lot of sensor tech development to counter it. However, if enemy doesn't expect you or cannot detect you and has their shields down, you can just as well decloak and nuke him with normal torpedoes, without added cost and complexity of adding cloak to them.
I also unsure if torpedo/missile even has enough juice to even activate cloak. It would really be quite expensive thing to produce, probably a lot bigger than usual torpedo to store additional batteries to hold the cloak (even for that short period of time), and just useless addition if enemy comes prepared. You can simply fire missiles from high distance under cloak and swiftly reposition in that case, and repeat the process until enemy is destroyed or decides to run away.
Missiles are vulnerable to counter-measures (barring standard one of a shield facing
Jupiter Class Dreadnought Carrier
40,000 Hull (44,000 on fleet version)
1.2 shield mod (1.32 on fleet version)
5 Turn rate
4000 Crew
Same inertia as the Vo'Quv
3/3 weapon slots
4 device slots
4 eng consoles
4 sci consoles
1 tac console (2 on the fleet version)
As for a special console, it could have a console that would grant an ability that would give a moderate size hull and shield heal to all the players hanger pets, with a 3 minute cool down.
Boffs:
Cmdr eng
Lt cmdr sci
Lt sci
Lt tac
2 Hanger bays, which would come standard with Peregrine fighters
The Jupiter would have access to a hanger pet that no other carrier could use: [Hanger - Miranda Class Frigates], possibly with a Centaur or Shi'Kahr skin on the advanced and/or elite versions.
They would be armed with phaser arrays and photon torpedoes (quantum torpedoes on advanced and elite versions). As for powers, they would have
emergency power to engines 1
extend shields 1 (2 for advanced and 3 for elite)
engineering team 1 (2 for advanced and 3 for elite)
What do you guys think?
Winning.
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
Again, with remote control technology the "sending people to their deaths" thing is completely negated, so we really should stop bringing that up as an excuse.
Insurrection: Data in the mission scout ship. A one man shuttle sized vessel. "Caused significant damage" to a chel grett.
Later in the captain's yacht. (shudder. should have been captain's gig.) Uses tachyon bursts to force the ship to lower her shields and reset them.
One fighter was a significant nuisance. A squadron could have been deadly.
Must be sickbay because reduced crew supposedly reduces your hull regeneration. IE repair rate.
They never bothered coming up with much counter measures to the two cloak capable races before. They just rather blithely continue as though everything is rosey in the tactics free land. Also I mentioned romulans because they are the ones that could in theory produce cloaks cheaply enough to make use on heavy ordinance practical. Stealth missile fire is part of the point on a cruise missile. It flies low and alters course to avoid detection till it can reach it's target unhindered. A cloak is just a step up on the concept.
All counter measures are active devices that need to be turned on. A US warship was once hit by a missile because it did not have those active. Same holds true in ST universe. So a cloaked ordinance would be killer.
Way off op on missile boats but it has a point.
Why can't carriers of any faction cloak?
Game balance I assume makes it so you cannot be out killing things without the threat of return fire.
With live pilots it makes sense in universe. Unless those fighters are remote piloted and a cloak would interfere with the controls
Oh and supporting that they can be both manned and unmanned. Picard remote pilots his runabout to cut off the power beam between the Enterprise and a romulan warbird.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Don't condescend to me. In this theoretical universe of faster than light sensors, the same technology that should allow for near flawless target lock also allows the target to detect incoming fire and react to it near instantaneously. Weapons in star trek do not travel at faster than light speeds unless fired while at warp. Torpedoes have field sustainers that allow them to maintain warp if fired at warp but not jump from sub-light to warp, and phaser type weapons use the applied phlebotinum of annular confinement beam jackets to allow them to be used at warp. So since the target vessel has faster than light sensors and is being fired on by weapons that travel at or below the speed of light, there is the possibility of detecting and evading such fire, particularly with sufficiently powerful engines capable of moving the vessel out of the way quickly enough.
All of that theoretical science fiction technology debate aside, it's already well established that the writers allow for "misses" and a whole host of other plot devices that don't make sense given the fictional technology they are supposed to be equipped with, so, again, attempting to apply logic or reality to the situation will never be fruitful.
You are right, when going against a spam clearing ship, a spam ship can be forced to near exclusively rely on it's native weapons, particularly in one on one. But not all ships in game carry spam clear skills, and in those cases, fighters and other launchables can be used to fantastic effect. And the existence of fire at will and cannon scatter volley is no reason why the federation should not be developing and deploying its own carrier. Especially considering the reason given for commissioning the atrox from the catians was to address the threat of klingon carriers. That should merely have been a stop gap measure while they developed and constructed their own carriers.
The jupiter sounds pretty standard, so nothing anyone should be too cry baby about, though carriers with just four boffs usually have two lt.coms, so it either needs an ensign or another lt.com. The frigate pets with mild combat abilities and support features seems quite spiffy to me, though I'm not sure I would trust them to use their extends and heals responsibly. Would they spread out and support your teammates or would they be using all that support on the mother ship? Using it just on each other? using it on the mother ship and each other? Seems like it could be a nightmare to program them to be even remotely effective.
Seems nice enough, if there were ever a Starfleet carrier to be made, though I have to wonder how you justify the Fleet version of this ship getting a full .22 increase in shield modifier over the Fleet Vo'Quv. It's not the hullpoints, because the Fleet Vo'Quv only has 46k compared to 44k you're suggesting.
Scale back that shield mod a tad and you've got a nice workable Federation equivalent to the Vo'Quv, albeit more engineering focused than science. . .then again, the Federation is absolutely NOT hurting for science options right now.
Regardless of the thread topic, your comment was a statement regarding the canon status of fighters. That was what I was addressing.
And canon has demonstrated that Starfleet uses manned fighters. Whether or not it's done willingly is irrelevant and a subject of speculation only. Either way, it was proven effective in the Dominion War. Therefore, it makes sense that in the wars of STO's era, Starfleet would use a proven "force multiplier" in combat operations. And by extention, carriers to support such craft in long term operations.
The actual fighter's name was never firmly established in canon, other than "Federation Attack Fighter" (despite it's parent design being called the Peregrine Class). However, the design's origins (which I am aware of, by the way) are irrelevant. The Maquis proved that the basic design had potential as a fighter/light combat craft. Starfleet also used them as flight trainers. Just as the USAF found that some training aircraft made excellent combat platforms, it stands to reason that Starfleet commissioned a fighter based on a combat proven utility craft.
As for small craft (like fighters) taking hits from capital ships, we routinely saw Danube Class runabouts take hits from such over the course of DS9's run. And runabouts are basically overgrown shuttles. It been shown in various DS9 episodes that well armed, rugged small craft, with trained operators and proper tactics can be a serious combat threat to larger ships. And can survive such encounters in the process. Sure, the losses would be higher in large-scale fleet actions. But it wouldn't be much better in lighter warships, judging from the losses suffered by Jem'Hadar Attack Ships, B'rel Birds of Prey, and Miranda Class Frigates.
@artan42
True, the Hideki is overly large for a "fighter" at roughly 150 meters in length. But despite it's size, and use as a patrol/picket ship like traditional corvettes and frigates, it was touted as the Union's answer to the Danube runabout (a rugged, multipurpose small vessel that can fill a variety of roles). The tiny crew (3-5 personnel) seems to support this (compared to the crew complement of 43 for the JHAS and 50 (or so) for the Defiant Class). And it was routinely used as a heavy attack fighter, which it was designed to do.
There is, however, some evidence (from valid source material) that the Hideki was based on information leaked/stolen from the Defiant's specifications.
There were no Breen in that movie, you probably mean Son'a ship.
And if that Son'a ship simply used subspace weapons and instavaped both Data's scout and Picard's chick magnet, healing radiation be damned, we wouldn't have the movie, wouldn't we?
I'm talking about pure contest of ship's respective offense/defense capabilities, not situational plot devices. Son'a ship would vape both of those vessels with it's firepower hands down in open combat.
Or part of crew is just trying to keep the ship fall apart by stopping fires, evacuating damaged areas, or just damn trying to stay alive, thus not being overly helpful in using their magical powers of reverting time and putting the destroyed parts back (or whatever explanation you can figure out for skills like ET/HE/AtSIF).
Which is a bit dumb, but I think Federation probably works on countering cloak tech, just isn't so open about it.
Well, considering there were cloaked scientists in Insurrection, which is fed tech, it might actually be feasible.
Anything that gets hit while their shields are down in ST is in dire straits, if attacker has relatively comparable tech or better. Cloaked ships using cloaked projectiles would be deadly, especially if one side managed to develop and mass produce it without anyone else knowing.
If cloak doesn't affect targeting and sensors, I doubt it would mess up controls. It was never my point, I just believe fighter are useless AGAINST CONSIDERABLY LARGER vessel. They just don't have firepower to take it down fast enough as it can take them out.
As I stated before, that doesn't mean fighter/shuttle sized vessels are useless. They can perform reasonably well against other fighter/shuttles/raiders. They just don't have any use in large scale battles, against vessels that can create literal walls of phaser/beam fire and torpedo volleys. And unlike in the game, you really don't have infinite supply of fighters in hangar bays. Unless someone invents CAPSULE tech.
WRONG my car can go faster than light and since YOU know nothing about physics you would not know that the speed of light is Not always the fastest thing in the universe,
for example when flying through sodium light only travels at 38km/h through sodium to if there is a huge electromagnetic shield imagine how much that would slow down the laser targeting
I don't know anyone save Tholian spawns to use FAW. If more NPCs did, people wouldn't even bother with carriers for PvE/STFs. I also see no reason why anyone who does PvE content regularly wouldn't have at least one FAW/CSV/TS on their repertoire.
I can't comment about PvP though, I don't do it...yet.
Or they simply decided to spend those resources developing Avenger? Firepower, survivability, VATA/cruiser command and ability to use cloak if needed.
I personally don't know what actual purpose carriers do have in this game, to be honest.