Each new gen of iphone is only marginally at best better than the last - there are you tube videos showing how you have to go back to iphone 3 before a human being notices real differences - so why every few months when they come out with a "faster and more powerful" iphone - does millions and millions and millions of people rush out to upgrade?
That is your answer.
I'm sorry but you are comparing apples and oranges here. A physical product which does not have any competitive interactivity between each other. Does not translate well to games which are in fact filled with competitive elements. If this were single player or had no pvp I would agree, but we do.
A new ships should have some better aspects but also weaker, thankful they changed the shield mod so I'm fairly happy. I can only hope gal-x gets a fleet version eventually and that cruisers get those new mechanics really soon.
I have both ships, Sovereign and Excelsior. The new Avenger won't put mine in the dock for long. As I rotate my ships around as I do missions. So regardless how one is set up, they all get a chance to get out for some action. Just like my away team. I rotate them around as well. Good example. When I did my Romulan Rep. Each ship took on a tier. So each one got to have some fun.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I'm sorry but you are comparing apples and oranges here. A physical product which does not have any competitive interactivity between each other. Does not translate well to games which are in fact filled with competitive elements. If this were single player or had no pvp I would agree, but we do.
A new ships should have some better aspects but also weaker, thankful they changed the shield mod so I'm fairly happy. I can only hope gal-x gets a fleet version eventually and that cruisers get those new mechanics really soon.
So what is the real complaint here? You don't want to pony up the money for a new ship? What if they gave you the option to upgrade your current ship for say 3/4 the price?
If you don't want either of those - cryptic does not want to hear about it - that is the reality.
So what is the real complaint here? You don't want to pony up the money for a new ship? What if they gave you the option to upgrade your current ship for say 3/4 the price?
If you don't want either of those - cryptic does not want to hear about it - that is the reality.
The only complaint is in competitive environment, you should only sell attractive alternatives.
That upgrade system is already in the game ala fleet ships, they will likely do something similar for the climb to Admiral. Which I am alright with, cryptic wants more then just paying customer if all they had was nothing but always paying customers soon the population would thin out.
Then all those paying customers would start to leave due to long queues etc. So don't think cryptic has no intentions what so ever for balance etc. But balance is less of priority then adding new stuff to game, especially since FTP.
The question to me is can the Avenger compete with the Excelsior. In the golden age of A2B, the Excelsior fawboat to me, will always reign supreme against the Avenger and Sovereign.
The only complaint is in competitive environment, you should only sell attractive alternatives.
That upgrade system is already in the game ala fleet ships, they will likely do something similar for the climb to Admiral. Which I am alright with, cryptic wants more then just paying customer if all they had was nothing but always paying customers soon the population would thin out.
Then all those paying customers would start to leave due to long queues etc. So don't think cryptic has no intentions what so ever for balance etc. But balance is less of priority then adding new stuff to game, especially since FTP.
Several things are high priority:
Lots of turn-over - come in buy lots of shinnies - leave
So what is the real complaint here? You don't want to pony up the money for a new ship? What if they gave you the option to upgrade your current ship for say 3/4 the price?
If you don't want either of those - cryptic does not want to hear about it - that is the reality.
This new ship makes so many other Cruisers obsolete that is not a good thing. It hurts sales on those obsolete ships from newer players that don't have them and it makes people angry their current ships are now obsolete. Make ships equal but different is what they should of done.
I and many others want ships that are obsolete to be made better and not be obsolete but I doubt they will do that and just make new ships that are better instead.
The question to me is can the Avenger compete with the Excelsior. In the golden age of A2B, the Excelsior fawboat to me, will always reign supreme against the Avenger and Sovereign.
I run 3 toons with Fleet Excel FAW/BO - 2x Aux 2 Bat
We shall see how long until they stay or come back - most likely come back.
Avenger will only replace maybe 3 toons ships for the next while
This is out of 28 toons and 32 c-store ships and shuttles
Lots of turn-over - come in buy lots of shinnies - leave
Reasonable power creep
lots of new "have to have" shinnies
Lower priority:
Balance
They actually don't want turn over, that's generally bad for business. Loyal customers are much more valuable. I'm sure any ferangi could tell you that.
Of course new customers and growth is always good too.
They actually don't want turn over, that's generally bad for business. Loyal customers are much more valuable. I'm sure any ferangi could tell you that.
Of course new customers and growth is always good too.
Actually they have found in F2P games that long-term customers cost more money to keep then high turn over short term customers.
Long-term tend to not buy as many new shinnies as the high turn over quick fix customers.
Honestly, once the new Adv. Comm. Array is on all cruisers, it will be the same as ACR vs AHCR, small trade offs for player preferences. Right now because of this being the preview/test bed for this new system, the Battle Cruiser will have a slight advantage over the other 2 ships. As for the console, some will love it, most will throw it away (at this point I think the Bioneural torpedo should be changed to a console considering the T'Varo and Avenger console).
I can picture moving from my Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit right now and seeing improved performance (better turn rate and +10 engine power) right now.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Depending on the final stats release will I worry?
Nope.
I have flown cruisers since beta and seen so many changes but it's not just the ship but the Captain that flies her that makes the ship, I have flown the AC, excel, ACR, Galaxy X and Oddy.
All these ships have there charms. There builds reflect this.
AC & Galaxy X, old war houses that soak up incredible damage make good support ships.
ACR & Fleet ACR, these are good brawlers take damage and give it out in spades if built right.
Excel, jack of all trades, certainly more nimble always thought of her as a strike cruiser.
Oddy, currently my eng uses the operations variant I think the Sci version had the edge but current ship will take aggro, run support and heal others damm fine true multirole for me and a good flagship when time taken to learn to fly her.
The Avenger is a bit unknown I could see my Tac flying one but she uses the ACR to great effect so I would be torn.
The lack of science consoles will be a limitation and I can see the need of the Avenger being backed up by other cruisers that have the extra science capacity.
Was the Regent a step up? or sideways to the other ships.
Well, the Regent had the 180 deg. firing arc Quantum Torpedo launcher (Usable on any other ship). <--- That was its main selling point for a lot of players (myself included) in all honesty.
^^^
IE - it offered a 'special' item.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Avenger released, suspicions confirmed. All you Fleet Assault Cruiser and Fleet Advanced Cruiser captains have just had your ship power-creeped. All the millions you put in to make your ships the destroyers they are today... are nothing in comparison to this beast.
Sufficed to say, I did a quick test with my FACR and my friend in his FBCR, he used all mk XI blue gear and I used my full mk XII purple TRIBBLE, and he was EQUAL in damage output to me. And I mean it when I say EQUAL. Then he switched to his full mk XII purple build, and he just blew me away. Completely.
Sufficed to say, we just got power-creeped boys. Time to pack it in and buy an Avenger.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Avenger released, suspicions confirmed. All you Fleet Assault Cruiser and Fleet Advanced Cruiser captains have just had your ship power-creeped. All the millions you put in to make your ships the destroyers they are today... are nothing in comparison to this beast.
Sufficed to say, I did a quick test with my FACR and my friend in his FBCR, he used all mk XI blue gear and I used my full mk XII purple TRIBBLE, and he was EQUAL in damage output to me. And I mean it when I say EQUAL. Then he switched to his full mk XII purple build, and he just blew me away. Completely.
Sufficed to say, we just got power-creeped boys. Time to pack it in and buy an Avenger.
Like hell I will. Keep your shiny Avenger, I will never pack my Sovereign up.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
Coming from the battlcruiser side, this outdates all the KDF battlecruisers out there. First Without the array movement buff I got 30+ turn rate, because of the high inertia she turns like a science/destroyer type ship. While I know there are some very good excelsior pilots who can get good turn out of there ships, the better inertia of the Avenger will allow it to turn inside of your turn with ease while the typical KDF battlecruiser had to use piloting skills to do so.
The cruiser array is great and will be a blessing once it hits all cruisers. The turn bonus array is+10% speed and a flat 3 on top of your current turn and so is not modified by RCS consoles etc. The -25% weapon power kept power levels over 100 on my engineer using 3 dhcs, and 3 turrets. The shield bonus was 10% absorb and regen.
Coming from the battlcruiser side, this outdates all the KDF battlecruisers out there. First Without the array movement buff I got 30+ turn rate, because of the high inertia she turns like a science/destroyer type ship. While I know there are some very good excelsior pilots who can get good turn out of there ships, the better inertia of the Avenger will allow it to turn inside of your turn with ease while the typical KDF battlecruiser had to use piloting skills to do so.
The cruiser array is great and will be a blessing once it hits all cruisers. The turn bonus array is+10% speed and a flat 3 on top of your current turn and so is not modified by RCS consoles etc. The -25% weapon power kept power levels over 100 on my engineer using 3 dhcs, and 3 turrets. The shield bonus was 10% absorb and regen.
Lastly, she looks pretty good with maco shields.
Last I heard, the inertial of the Excelsior and Avenger were the same (40). A one degree rate difference isn't exactly what I would call "with ease", especially if you are using mostly dhcs on it.
I don't think they will. Come on people every new c store ship is better than the last one or no one would buy it. Would any of you buy a weaker ship? I think not.
I don't think they will. Come on people every new c store ship is better than the last one or no one would buy it. Would any of you buy a weaker ship? I think not.
If it is clearly weaker most would not. But why can't something be a little different but not obviously better?
The avenger is only 1 degree faster in turning than the FAHCR. This means it will still only turn slightly faster to bring its nose to bear on a target if it has DC/DHC equipped up front.
Wrong build for it...DBB will be the proper build, with turrets/KCB in the rear. The 90% arc will double the firing arc up front while only slightly reducing DPS...except it has 5 forward slots so it will roughly be equivalent in damage to 4 DHC minus critD. APB2 will also be part of the build, along with BO2, and either BO1 or BFAW1 depending on if they like crowd control up front.
Aux2batt will be a part of the build, but will definitely focus more toward maxing out shields and engines than weapons due to the cruiser command reducing energy drain from weapons, thus why dual BO will probably be preferred.
DEM will be in the build, but marion may/may not be as required as it once was due to the new cruiser commands. and dont forget we will be getting a 6th Doff slot opened for us soon.
tachyo and enhanced neut consoles will still be a part of the build, just like on excels, but the excel gets 1 added cruiser command, enhancing its damage resist and jacking up threat level, which in PvP helps survivability.
I still like embassy flow caps and shield emitter arrays in sci slots depending on build and defense focus.
I dont see excel losing out to the avenger unless everyone properly builds the avenger the right way, and stays away from the silly cloaking console synergy and DC/DHC setups.
The avenger is only 1 degree faster in turning than the FAHCR. This means it will still only turn slightly faster to bring its nose to bear on a target if it has DC/DHC equipped up front.
Wrong build for it...DBB will be the proper build, with turrets/KCB in the rear. The 90% arc will double the firing arc up front while only slightly reducing DPS...except it has 5 forward slots so it will roughly be equivalent in damage to 4 DHC minus critD. APB2 will also be part of the build, along with BO2, and either BO1 or BFAW1 depending on if they like crowd control up front.
Aux2batt will be a part of the build, but will definitely focus more toward maxing out shields and engines than weapons due to the cruiser command reducing energy drain from weapons, thus why dual BO will probably be preferred.
DEM will be in the build, but marion may/may not be as required as it once was due to the new cruiser commands. and dont forget we will be getting a 6th Doff slot opened for us soon.
tachyo and enhanced neut consoles will still be a part of the build, just like on excels, but the excel gets 1 added cruiser command, enhancing its damage resist and jacking up threat level, which in PvP helps survivability.
I still like embassy flow caps and shield emitter arrays in sci slots depending on build and defense focus.
I dont see excel losing out to the avenger unless everyone properly builds the avenger the right way, and stays away from the silly cloaking console synergy and DC/DHC setups.
In PvE Dual Heavy Cannons + Turrets are very good for the Avenger especially with some Fleet Engineering Consoles helping to boost turn. The Avenger just totally out does Excelsior and Sovereign in PvE only in PvP are things not as bad.
I was on this morning. And I only saw a couple of these new ships at the Deep Space 9 area. So they are selling, but not very strong from what I normally see when a new ship comes out. I still saw a lot of Sovereign and Odyssey classes.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
So far, I haven't been beaten DPS wise by the Avenger yet. Still tops in my Fleet Sovereign A2B/FAW beam boat in all Fleet actions and STfs I've done since the Avenger's release. So no...it doesn't make the Fleet Sovereign and Fleet Excelsior obsolete.
In PvE Dual Heavy Cannons + Turrets are very good for the Avenger especially with some Fleet Engineering Consoles helping to boost turn. The Avenger just totally out does Excelsior and Sovereign in PvE only in PvP are things not as bad.
u have to really mess up a build in PvE to not be effective...
I was thinking more along the lines of PvP/Kerrat type environment where targets move, evade, elude, counter, parry, tractor u in place and hit u from behind, ect.
If you were to fly them as a beam boat, there's very little difference between the Regent and Avenger. In fact, PvE wise the Regent is the better beamboat as you don't have to waste a boff slot on a sci boff, enabling you to take 3x tactical boffs (specifically romulan crit boosting tac boffs) and 2x engineers.
The only reason I'm sticking to the Avenger is so I won't have to switch to an escort if I want focused damage. If cryptic ever make a boff power that allows for focused rapid fire beams (a beam version of cannon rapid fire), I'd be back in my Regent in a flash.
I don't think they will. Come on people every new c store ship is better than the last one or no one would buy it. Would any of you buy a weaker ship? I think not.
very easy misconception there it is not weaker than sov or excel nor is it stronger it just has a different way of doing things than both this is usually called a sidegrade which is it has some awesome things to play with but it has its own niche that it fills that the others fill in much better in others
Comments
I'm sorry but you are comparing apples and oranges here. A physical product which does not have any competitive interactivity between each other. Does not translate well to games which are in fact filled with competitive elements. If this were single player or had no pvp I would agree, but we do.
A new ships should have some better aspects but also weaker, thankful they changed the shield mod so I'm fairly happy. I can only hope gal-x gets a fleet version eventually and that cruisers get those new mechanics really soon.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
So what is the real complaint here? You don't want to pony up the money for a new ship? What if they gave you the option to upgrade your current ship for say 3/4 the price?
If you don't want either of those - cryptic does not want to hear about it - that is the reality.
The only complaint is in competitive environment, you should only sell attractive alternatives.
That upgrade system is already in the game ala fleet ships, they will likely do something similar for the climb to Admiral. Which I am alright with, cryptic wants more then just paying customer if all they had was nothing but always paying customers soon the population would thin out.
Then all those paying customers would start to leave due to long queues etc. So don't think cryptic has no intentions what so ever for balance etc. But balance is less of priority then adding new stuff to game, especially since FTP.
Several things are high priority:
Lots of turn-over - come in buy lots of shinnies - leave
Reasonable power creep
lots of new "have to have" shinnies
Lower priority:
Balance
This new ship makes so many other Cruisers obsolete that is not a good thing. It hurts sales on those obsolete ships from newer players that don't have them and it makes people angry their current ships are now obsolete. Make ships equal but different is what they should of done.
I and many others want ships that are obsolete to be made better and not be obsolete but I doubt they will do that and just make new ships that are better instead.
I run 3 toons with Fleet Excel FAW/BO - 2x Aux 2 Bat
We shall see how long until they stay or come back - most likely come back.
Avenger will only replace maybe 3 toons ships for the next while
This is out of 28 toons and 32 c-store ships and shuttles
Of course new customers and growth is always good too.
Actually they have found in F2P games that long-term customers cost more money to keep then high turn over short term customers.
Long-term tend to not buy as many new shinnies as the high turn over quick fix customers.
It is the opposite of most business models.
I can picture moving from my Fleet Assault Cruiser Refit right now and seeing improved performance (better turn rate and +10 engine power) right now.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Nope.
I have flown cruisers since beta and seen so many changes but it's not just the ship but the Captain that flies her that makes the ship, I have flown the AC, excel, ACR, Galaxy X and Oddy.
All these ships have there charms. There builds reflect this.
AC & Galaxy X, old war houses that soak up incredible damage make good support ships.
ACR & Fleet ACR, these are good brawlers take damage and give it out in spades if built right.
Excel, jack of all trades, certainly more nimble always thought of her as a strike cruiser.
Oddy, currently my eng uses the operations variant I think the Sci version had the edge but current ship will take aggro, run support and heal others damm fine true multirole for me and a good flagship when time taken to learn to fly her.
The Avenger is a bit unknown I could see my Tac flying one but she uses the ACR to great effect so I would be torn.
The lack of science consoles will be a limitation and I can see the need of the Avenger being backed up by other cruisers that have the extra science capacity.
However we shall see when she is released.
Well, the Regent had the 180 deg. firing arc Quantum Torpedo launcher (Usable on any other ship). <--- That was its main selling point for a lot of players (myself included) in all honesty.
^^^
IE - it offered a 'special' item.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Sufficed to say, I did a quick test with my FACR and my friend in his FBCR, he used all mk XI blue gear and I used my full mk XII purple TRIBBLE, and he was EQUAL in damage output to me. And I mean it when I say EQUAL. Then he switched to his full mk XII purple build, and he just blew me away. Completely.
Sufficed to say, we just got power-creeped boys. Time to pack it in and buy an Avenger.
Like hell I will. Keep your shiny Avenger, I will never pack my Sovereign up.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
Pretty much this but in my case it's my fleet Excel. Of course anyone who knows me in game knows how I cling to that ship :P
The cruiser array is great and will be a blessing once it hits all cruisers. The turn bonus array is+10% speed and a flat 3 on top of your current turn and so is not modified by RCS consoles etc. The -25% weapon power kept power levels over 100 on my engineer using 3 dhcs, and 3 turrets. The shield bonus was 10% absorb and regen.
Lastly, she looks pretty good with maco shields.
Last I heard, the inertial of the Excelsior and Avenger were the same (40). A one degree rate difference isn't exactly what I would call "with ease", especially if you are using mostly dhcs on it.
Not everyone wants the high-end brand new Ferrari. Some of us like classic muscle too.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
If it is clearly weaker most would not. But why can't something be a little different but not obviously better?
Wrong build for it...DBB will be the proper build, with turrets/KCB in the rear. The 90% arc will double the firing arc up front while only slightly reducing DPS...except it has 5 forward slots so it will roughly be equivalent in damage to 4 DHC minus critD. APB2 will also be part of the build, along with BO2, and either BO1 or BFAW1 depending on if they like crowd control up front.
Aux2batt will be a part of the build, but will definitely focus more toward maxing out shields and engines than weapons due to the cruiser command reducing energy drain from weapons, thus why dual BO will probably be preferred.
DEM will be in the build, but marion may/may not be as required as it once was due to the new cruiser commands. and dont forget we will be getting a 6th Doff slot opened for us soon.
tachyo and enhanced neut consoles will still be a part of the build, just like on excels, but the excel gets 1 added cruiser command, enhancing its damage resist and jacking up threat level, which in PvP helps survivability.
I still like embassy flow caps and shield emitter arrays in sci slots depending on build and defense focus.
I dont see excel losing out to the avenger unless everyone properly builds the avenger the right way, and stays away from the silly cloaking console synergy and DC/DHC setups.
In PvE Dual Heavy Cannons + Turrets are very good for the Avenger especially with some Fleet Engineering Consoles helping to boost turn. The Avenger just totally out does Excelsior and Sovereign in PvE only in PvP are things not as bad.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
u have to really mess up a build in PvE to not be effective...
I was thinking more along the lines of PvP/Kerrat type environment where targets move, evade, elude, counter, parry, tractor u in place and hit u from behind, ect.
The only reason I'm sticking to the Avenger is so I won't have to switch to an escort if I want focused damage. If cryptic ever make a boff power that allows for focused rapid fire beams (a beam version of cannon rapid fire), I'd be back in my Regent in a flash.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
very easy misconception there it is not weaker than sov or excel nor is it stronger it just has a different way of doing things than both this is usually called a sidegrade which is it has some awesome things to play with but it has its own niche that it fills that the others fill in much better in others