How will the Excelsior and Sovereign compete with the Avenger?

denliner1701

With the advent of the release of the Avenger Class Battlecruiser, I've pretty much lost hope in pretty much all offensive-style cruisers. Excelsiors, Sovereigns, Galaxy-X's, and Galor will pretty much be dust in the wind compared to the uber damage dealing Avenger, with such better stats than all of them. The Avenger even has access to a cloak! Most likely, only the Monbosh will ever compete with the Avenger as the top-end battlecruiser.

So to all Excelsior, Sovereign, Galor, or other Feds, how will they ever compete with the Avenger, which is basically a compact Scimitar for the Feds?

thecosmic1

The first thing they'll do is wait for the final Avenger stats to be released.

thratch1

thecosmic1 wrote: »

The first thing they'll do is wait for the final Avenger stats to be released.

The stats posted from a test server point to a ship that is pretty much superior to the Excelsior and Soveriegn -- roughly equal hull values, higher shield modifier, higher turn rate, more Tactical console slots, and a better Boff layout.

Of course, it is a Test server, so these stats may not be final.

unboundinferno

Pretty much what he said. I'm waiting to see if the stats change (they ought to, its too strong) or if the boosted powers introduced would actually benefit other ships.

I highly doubt it'll help my Oddy enough, but you never know. It might be the perks of having any option available to shift on a dime for the situation could leave it in a good place.

It could just gimp it as the focused attack-oriented Battle Cruiser is really that far ahead and those few perks are all it needs to stay ahead.

I'm sure we'll see later.

thecosmic1

thratch1 wrote: »

The stats posted from a test server point to a ship that is pretty much superior to the Excelsior and Soveriegn -- roughly equal hull values, higher shield modifier, higher turn rate, more Tactical console slots, and a better Boff layout.

Of course, it is a Test server, so these stats may not be final.

Brandon has already confirmed that the stats have changed - and they usually do. That's why all the stat blogs always say "subject to change" at the bottom of them.

admiralq1732

Sovie, and Excel will still compete. people have good builds on them, they are cannon, and better looking. Cryptic should fire their design department for every ship they bring out is butt ugly

khayuung

I recently commented on how the Avenger changes things for the cruisers of the Federation.

If you ask me, the Excelsior and the Regent are all in reasonably good places.

studleydoo

I fly a Fleet assault cruiser and I'm not worried. I find the Avenger offers a different gameplay experience without making making the Fleet Sovereign and Fleet Excelsior obsolete. It fills a new niche as a dual cannon wielding Fed cruiser. The BIG advantage that the Avenger brings to FEd cruisers is a very high, escort like spike damage potential. Fleet Sovereigns and Excelsiors will continue to be awesome as beam boats.

cidstorm

They'll nerf the shields to 1.1 and the Avenger will just lose a tiny sliver of hull and a device slot for +1 turning, dhc, and cloak usage. :P

adamkafei

I don't care what the Avenger looks like in the end, my fleet Excel will certainly give it a run for it's money.

timelord79

Sure, but making it better at everything makes for very boring or frustrating game play.
You could also say, that Starfleet set out to create battlecruiser that can blow things up and they figured out how, but had to make room for the big cannons by removing a few shield generators.

It here is an idea, that I think Cryptic should be able to figure out.

How about giving it extra shield capacity for front shields to help with the intended assault run, but have a penalty on flank and rear shields.
That would be a balanced trade off and still fit the technogical advanced theme.

bridgern

The old cruisers are obsolete now (what is sad), the new cruiser can do way more damage. I was really hoping that they would improve beam weapons instead of making an enhanced Vor'cha clone.

ufpterrell

The Avenger may grow on me, but I'm really not sure about the design. From the rear and front it looks great, a mix of the reagant and oddy designs with the split neck etc. Also the array hardpoints are really well modelled and I wish they were as good on the older ships. Then you get to see the deflector, and the horribly chunky belly. I don't know, it just doesn't seem right and is most certainly a copy of the Vengeance (which I didn't like). A shame, with the a few tweeks to the hull and deflector it could have been a stunner.

Also, could have been an opportunity to bring in a new weapon type instead of making it a DHC boat like every other escort in the game. We have multiple types of cannons, singles, duals, dual heavies yet only beam and dual beam. Why not use the introduction of the first dedicated Federation Battlecruiser to bring in a heavy beam array? Mix things up a little Cryptic!

Anyway, back on topic... I think the excel and sov will be fine. The fleet sov in the right hands is god damn devastating and the excel is still the best turning cruiser in the game.

z3ndor99

I say let them nerf it! It shouldn't be better than ships 70+ years old, heck no one buy until they make it like the galaxy class, who wants a fast capable fed cruiser anyway, yup nerf it so escorts still rule the heap... this is what everyone wants don't they?

misterde3

z3ndor99 wrote: »

I say let them nerf it! It shouldn't be better than ships 70+ years old, heck no one buy until they make it like the galaxy class, who wants a fast capable fed cruiser anyway, yup nerf it so escorts still rule the heap... this is what everyone wants don't they?

Everyone? Nope.
But here's something to think about: you usually put stuff on the same tier because it has a sum of good and bad that when put together makes it equal to the others on that tier.
If that isn't the case...don't put it on the same tier because it doesn't belong there.
This may come as a shock to you but a lot of people want their ships to actually belong on a tier and not actually above or below it.;)

erhardgrund

In terms of damage output the Avenger will be superior, theres no way around it. However to do so it will have to mount cannons wich limits your firing arc alot, so it will have less time on target or will have to sit with low defense values where that higher shield modifier is definitly needed.
Outfitted as a broadsider it will be able to do the same amount of damage as a Excelsior , Regent or their Fleet versions but it will have a higher shield modifier.
So basicly it will be a notch better at that as well but most likely it will be trading some survivability in form of heals for it, so it will most likely be either a small difference or a nonexistent one.
Those 4 tactical consoles sure are neat as well but it will only help marginaly. Its not that the damage increase is totaly huge compare with other cruisers. Fleet Ambassador ond Odyssey are not far behind and offer more flexibility in the broadsiding cruisers department.
In my expierience a science odyssey can do equal or more damage than a Fleet Excelsior or Fleet Assault because of sensor analyses and the Boff slots to fill BFAW3 , TS2 and APB at the same time.

Well see how the Avenger changes things. I doubt it will change alot. Basic turn of 9 is still on the meh side when it comes to equiping dual cannons.

However i, looking forward to the new comm array abilities wich will undoubtedly help cruisers and teams alot if done right.

When it comes to the design though, i have to say imho that the new Avenger is the most ugly ship cryptic has come up with for a long time.
I dont want to sound rude, the modelling work seems to be well executed but the shapes and proportions are so out of bounds blocky and full of curved edges that change into basic square shapes its unbearable.

It looks alot like an old fan design, the Furious Class mixed with a bit of Regent and Vesta.

I hope they`ll come up with a different skin at some point or at least another ship with similar apabilities but more agressivv looks.

I mean the thinking behind the ship isnt bad beefy for durability, slit deflector to look rugged, visible cannon ports. Kudos for the effort.
But an Attack ship like that should have a slim frontal silluette with partly covered bussard collectors and partly covered deflector and less frontal area.
While all parts on the Avenger are thick and look reinforced its still exposed alot. So it was meant to take a beating but no one thought of make it difficult to hit.

I know, esthetics are subjective and so on but havent heard one comment , not one, who realy likes the design.

z3ndor99

I get what your saying i do, it seems to me that this ship has what a lot people want but, because it looks different it isn't canon standard they don't want it, yet if the galaxy dread had this ships stats applied to it they wouldn't say a thing. We have to move foreward and accept this new cruiser, if we don't then escorts for the fed side have won. People have asked for a better fed cruiser and here it is.... so what's so wrong that they can't accept it?

yreodred

ufpterrell wrote: »

The Avenger may grow on me, but I'm really not sure about the design. From the rear and front it looks great, a mix of the reagant and oddy designs with the split neck etc. Also the array hardpoints are really well modelled and I wish they were as good on the older ships. Then you get to see the deflector, and the horribly chunky belly. I don't know, it just doesn't seem right and is most certainly a copy of the Vengeance (which I didn't like). A shame, with the a few tweeks to the hull and deflector it could have been a stunner.

Isn't this always the problem with cryptics designs?
When it's a good design (which happens rarely) small things, like nacelles too far apart, hull too narrow, or the neck weird in some way, kill a ship design, just because a designer didn't had the patience or eye for the right proportions.

When it's a bad design (like the Avenger) too many things went wrong and the ship looks like a kitbash of part made by completely different people.

ufpterrell wrote: »

Also, could have been an opportunity to bring in a new weapon type instead of making it a DHC boat like every other escort in the game. We have multiple types of cannons, singles, duals, dual heavies yet only beam and dual beam. Why not use the introduction of the first dedicated Federation Battlecruiser to bring in a heavy beam array? Mix things up a little Cryptic!

Anyway, back on topic... I think the excel and sov will be fine. The fleet sov in the right hands is god damn devastating and the excel is still the best turning cruiser in the game.

I'm wondering, in a "normal" Star Trek game the question would not be Excelsior and Sovereign, it should be Galaxy and Sovereign. But of course cryptic devs see things differently :mad:


I fully agree with your proposed heavy beam arrays, something like that would be the long awaited compensation for Starfleet Cruisers compared to KDF battlecruisers. (a problem only a few ppl are aware of, according to cryptic...)

yreodred

z3ndor99 wrote: »

I say let them nerf it! It shouldn't be better than ships 70+ years old, heck no one buy until they make it like the galaxy class, who wants a fast capable fed cruiser anyway, yup nerf it so escorts still rule the heap... this is what everyone wants don't they?

quite the contrary, the problem is that the Avenger makes all other Starfleet Cruisers obsolete. Instead Cryptics should have introduced a mechanic that buffs Starfleet Cruisers in general COMPARED to other factions cruisers.

Another thing is that ppl are waiting for a reworked Galaxy -R and -X, but with the introduction of this new ship Cryptic did the exact opposite, they made those ships even more obsolete!

EDIT:
Regarding the excelsior, in my opinion it never should have been that strong in STO in the first place outgunning the Sovereign (assault cruiser) and the Galaxy Class, just because one dev was a fan of the Excel...
(very professional approach, cryptic really :rolleyes:)

Cryptic should have reworked the other two main Starfleet Cruisers (star Cruiser and GCS) in a similar manner as the Assault Crusier. (Star Crusier science focussed, GCS similar to the Nebula or antagonistic to the Romulan D'Deridex.)


But no one wanted a ship that is,
one, making all others obsolete and
two, being the most hideous thing Cryptic has ever produced
at the same time.

They shoud have at least unlocked Sovereign, Star Crusier and GCS ship parts to be used with that ship. (each ship set seperately, of course)

z3ndor99

Like i have posted in another thread, i understand everyones point of view but, if this was about the galaxy dread getting upgraded to these new battle cruiser stats, would there be as much anger? Is it that people just don't like the look, is that people like to be the eternal underdog in their cruisers? Why shouldn't a fed cruiser be this good? If this ship is a big no, then why should any other older ship be better? Help me understand! ( oh and i hate the galaxy class design, have done since the late 80's )

shpoks

z3ndor99 wrote: »

Like i have posted in another thread, i understand everyones point of view but, if this was about the galaxy dread getting upgraded to these new battle cruiser stats, would there be as much anger? Is it that people just don't like the look, is that people like to be the eternal underdog in their cruisers? Why shouldn't a fed cruiser be this good? If this ship is a big no, then why should any other older ship be better? Help me understand! ( oh and i hate the galaxy class design, have done since the late 80's )

It's not that anyone doesn't want a Fed. cruiser to be this good, at least in my opinion.

The thing is, let's say as an example we have 10 Federation cruisers at Tier 5. Each of the 10 cruisers should be equally usefull to each other in end-game content with only minor variances. That's the point of being on a same tier after all.
So now, the way the end-game is currently set up, some of these 10 Tier 5 cruisers are lackluster, some of them are completely useless and some of them can ace it. People tend to have issues with that. It basically boils down to - why is my T5 cruiser so useless compared to your T5 cruiser when they're both the same tier? People tend to have issues with that and rightfully so.

And then you introduce a 11-th cruiser at T5 that is suposed to fill the same role as 2 or 3 of the existing 10 cruiser, but do it better thus rendering them obsolete. And that techincally isn't T5 anymore. Well it is in a certain way, but it's a "better T5". And at the same tier, roles should vary but not in game efficiency and preformace, IMHO.

Like I said in another thread, if they're really going to take this direction with ships they need to implement a way for players to pay to upgrade their current ship really soon. Because the gap between old T5 and new T5 will get wider and wider when at a point you could bring T6 ships anyway. Either that or adjust the end-game content so something else than pure damage is relevant, so ships like the Fleet Star Cruiser, the Fleet Galaxy-R and such could really have a place in end-game as T5 ships.

bareel

Let us look at Cryptic's history with a few cruiser releases.

1st: Oddy - Simply put it could fill any build/role/etc better than every other cruiser previously released. Even the fleet versions were obsolete upon release.

2nd/3rd: Regant/Excel(Fleet) - Pushed the oddy back into only being the top eng/sci cruiser. Honestly these two compete very well with one another for top offensive ship as each has an edge on the other, regant has better boff layout with the excel having a better mobility.

Current Avenger Stats will make every other tactical styled cruiser obsolete. It will be superior in every way and any build on a regant/excel would work better on the Avenger.

Compared to escorts where I have a defiant/steamrunner/kumari/armatige all on different characters with vastly different builds that the other ships simply would not be capable of using in the same way and you can see why people tend to avoid buying cruisers. Why bother when all they do is the same as the previous version except 5% better? Then in five months one will have to shell out another $25 to keep up again, TRIBBLE that!

As for the engineer heavy cruiser, aka tank, their is nothing in this game worth specializing into a tank role for. All that extra survivability you could theoretically shove into a cruiser is a waste when any ship in the game can tank any of the content already without much sacrifice or opportunity cost.

doffingcomrade

They won't. The Avenger outclasses the Excelsior and Regent, especially the Regent, in every relevant way. It turns better, it has better shields, 5/3 is simply better than 4/4, even as a beamboat (5 fore allows you to fire 5 guns while closing to attack instead of 4). While the Excelsior can at least claim to have a different boff layout(albeit most likely a worse one), the Regent just can't: The Avenger has exactly the same layout, with a Universal slot that isn't a fake choice instead, and, of course, better stats all around.

While in the beamboat role, it's not enough of an upgrade to warrant paying a full replacement cost to get a Fleet Avenger instead of your existing Fleet Whatever, it basically removes any point to purchasing the others in the future.

On top of that, it requires merely T4 Yard instead of the T5 required for the ship that this one outclasses.

erhardgrund

The Avenger will be limited by its own potential.Meaning missusage.

How many competent players you see flying around in fleet vorchas or scimitars?
Sure ships like that can do focused fire very well but it limits their time on target drasticly , decreasing their damage, or they sit and burn.
Best example is the scimitar. People try to fly it like an escort and it just doesnt work.
Fitted out with cannons and battlecloack and sec shields and adv drones it is so seriously OP. But only if used corectly. Hit and run with slightly longer hitting time than escorts, than move away and recover, heal and crossheal.
However most people overdue the tac facto to squeeze even more dps out of it. But without aoe they get surprised by heavy plasma torps. And then they sit and have low defence and to much inertia to get moving to get out of trouble.
Played right a scimi only needs time to brutaly slaughter whatever comes across. But what is the reality, big green clouds of exploded scimitars whenever i see them in stfs or even sb24.

The Avengers and Thorkats and scimitars in this game suffer the same dilema as all cannon focused cruisers: built for stabbing and used for slashing.

latiasracer

In terms of firepower, The Avenger is going to be almost identical to my Fleet Assault cruiser, because i'll use it as a beamboat. As i broadside almost constantly, Having a slot taken of the back and popped on the front is pointless...



I'm only really getting the ship because (I think) it looks badass!

newromulan1

A lot of this stuff makes me laugh so hard - try going to one of the major car companies or your local dealer to complain that the new model makes your model of car or truck not as good anymore!!

The response should be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

misterde3

newromulan1 wrote: »

A lot of this stuff makes me laugh so hard - try going to one of the major car companies or your local dealer to complain that the new model makes your model of car or truck not as good anymore!!

The response should be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

That's why we repeatedly see aderts for some new tier 3 Fiat...no wait we don't...you just missed the point.

bareel

newromulan1 wrote: »

A lot of this stuff makes me laugh so hard - try going to one of the major car companies or your local dealer to complain that the new model makes your model of car or truck not as good anymore!!

The response should be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

Escorts are the top selling Cstore ships.

Escort releases do not constantly '1-UP' the previous ones released most have a neat 'nitch' the others lack.

That is a reason I own every escort released but only half of the cruisers.

newromulan1

misterde3 wrote: »

That's why we repeatedly see aderts for some new tier 3 Fiat...no wait we don't...you just missed the point.

I any business - computers/cars/sports - anything - there is a continuous release of new and better stuff that is better than the stuff before it.

Think about all those poor soldiers who invested in the "best" gear - only to be killed when the better more powerful stuff came along.

Besides - PvP is a Play to win beast all on it's own.

PvE content is such a joke in this game that ANYONE should be able to complete it just fine in the free ships with GREEN gear that is mission dropped. If a player can't - then they should spend more time getting better at the game then whining about new/better stuff being released.

There is no "competition" between excel/sov/avenger outside of PvP - and as someone who has PvP'd a fair bit - you almost never see those ships "competing

So the thread title just by itself is meaningless!

newromulan1

bareel wrote: »

Escorts are the top selling Cstore ships.

Escort releases do not constantly '1-UP' the previous ones released most have a neat 'nitch' the others lack.

That is a reason I own every escort released but only half of the cruisers.

Play the video again "are you serious?"

Do you want me to list the escorts and how they one up'd the previous?

It really started the 1 -up with the Andorian

timelord79

Except in competitive PvE like fleet actions where the best ship gets the best reward.
Cooperative PvE is not really the issue.

And then there is always the conflict in choice between: Do I fly the ship I like best or the newest?