This is where I must disagree with you. Crypic is correct about PvE difficulty and the player base has already voted upon that. The metrics on content played clearly demonstrates this and the fact that the game player base has continued to grow rapidly drives the point home.
The average player does NOT want
- To learn the method of creating keybinds and then doing so
- Learn all the ins and outs of the game mechanics
- Heavily invest into their build to make it top tier/competitive
- And so on
They want to join the queue, do some pew pew and have some fun. With luck they get a prize when they are done. PuG stomping is the absolutely most toxic thing for a growth of the PvP playerbase.
The PvP forum community, and I mean no disrespect, is the vocal minority of the player minority. Therefore all feedback must be looked threw the lens of 'is this the direction Cryptic feels the game should go'.
Ouch that was very blunt, but at the same time, does the average player contribute to the community and help keep Cryptic afloat I wonder? What does the average player need with a Tackyokinetic converter or a rule 62 console or in fact buy anything for that matter?
Why do they need to buy any Fleet gear to which you are advertising in your signature if that is what you are saying in your thread?
PVE has become so stale and bland with years of neglect. Seriously, when you play KASE/ISE/CSE for the 1000'th time, does it not hit you, there's more to the game than popping cubes and leeching.
Keybinds/Macro are the bread and butter of MMO's, look at WOW as a prime example. To ignore this is ignornace at best. Seriously I have more than 15 skills to use, do you have 15 fingers? or do you love clicking your mouse and trying to find that elusive skill hidden somewhere while someone is pew pewing you?
As with any game, there will be those people who think Pug stomping is fun and it gives power. They exist in any game, but some people exist who will be happy to teach and share builds and provide feedback. If you don't ask you won't get it, simple.
PVP is the End game, not ROFLStomping Cubes/ probes. I never gave PVP much of a thought back in the day until I joined the queues, sure I got my TRIBBLE kicked and felt silly, as I was new back then, not using TT and having a rainbow build (Hey it looked cool).
But you learn through your defeats. In fact i welcome death, as the next time I meet him, I will laugh in the jaws of defeat and come back stronger. I don't know about you, but I enjoy a challenge. PVP is not like PVE, it takes a long journey to become a better stronger player. Once you PVP you won't go back, you will see what Cryptic have been neglecting all this time and it's really sad.
PVP is now the only thing worth playing STO for me, not the endless grind to which there is no end and what is the purpose of it?Bragging rights for a T5 base? Gloating you killed a cube just by looking at it?
If you think Pug Stomping is toxic, you are missing the point. If you don't like a challenge then by all means carry on being ignorant and popping your cubes/gates and little probes and thinking your GOD. But don't conplain about pug stomps when you don't make an effort to improve.
The more you put into something, the more you get out of it.
In regards to the Queue, it isn't our fault there isn't a dedicated queue system for premades or the fact we have to wait more than 20 mins for a pop to occur. It is cryptic who has neglected this for far too long.
Pew pew and having fun with a nice reward is cool, but getting less than 20k EC each game a reward to you or anyone for that matter? Dilithium aside.
Perhaps having a casual 'easy' mode PVP Queue where there are restrictions on gear would be more useful or even hours played in PVP or having certain requirements before entering queue like a basic tutorial on PVP, So tutorials on all 3 careers and basic tanking, escorts and boff ability for e.g. Again simple stuff that cryptic has failed to implement since day 1.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Bit of a contradiction there as PvE and PvP are the only 2 aspects of this game.
I always expect posts from pvpers to come down to "I'm better than you because I pvp" and i'm never disappointed.
Could you tell me exactly how pve is different from most pvp? Sure pvp has more abilities but tends to use them back to back the way NPCs do. People may try to out-maneuver you but keeping someone in your firing arc is the same in both pve and pvp.
I'd rather be in the top 5% of pve-ers than the top 20% of pvpers. Much larger pool to excel in. Just because you are in one does not mean you would make it into the other. Either way round. I suck at pvp.
Just said that your first point was not the case. But Ok.
You also did answer your questions about PvP... But on you hypotheticals on if borg did what we do? They have on average 1.4 million health on a cube, if it poped Aux2SIF and all sorts of heals... you would get smashed... and it would not die. The way PvE is constructed is to allow for large health to make up for the lack of healing. High damage to make up for the lack of timing, bridge officers, and inteligence from AI opponents.
The Top 5% of PvE players, are PvP players. The current record holders I believe are all PvPers.
Now as to being bad at PvP, please ask for help before you condemn the community as liers, egomaniacs, charlitens, cheaters, ect. We can help you to perform better. Just ask, you do not even have to spec. I promise.;)
Just said that your first point was not the case. But Ok.
You also did answer your questions about PvP... But on you hypotheticals on if borg did what we do? They have on average 1.4 million health on a cube, if it poped Aux2SIF and all sorts of heals... you would get smashed... and it would not die. The way PvE is constructed is to allow for large health to make up for the lack of healing. High damage to make up for the lack of timing, bridge officers, and inteligence from AI opponents.
The Top 5% of PvE players, are PvP players. The current record holders I believe are all PvPers.
Now as to being bad at PvP, please ask for help before you condemn the community as liers, egomaniacs, charlitens, cheaters, ect. We can help you to perform better. Just ask, you do not even have to spec. I promise.;)
the PVP help thread is a useful place to start, I know, that's where I got my PVP foundation from. The rest will come through experiance and exposure
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Ouch that was very blunt, but at the same time, does the average player contribute to the community and help keep Cryptic afloat I wonder? What does the average player need with a Tackyokinetic converter or a rule 62 console or in fact buy anything for that matter?
Why do they need to buy any Fleet gear to which you are advertising in your signature if that is what you are saying in your thread?
Because they can and want to.
If they are highly skilled at this game, and by highly skilled I really mean they have a large amount of knowledge about how the game works, they have no need to spend cash money on stuff.
Those lockbox keys on the exchange? They are put there by the players who want EC to buy a purple MK12 tactical console in the hope it will give their ship a bit more teeth even if simply using the proper bridge officer abilities would accomplish the same objective for a fraction of the cost. Their are exceptions no doubt, but the vast majority of the real cash STO gets is from the whales whom I doubt are all hardcore PvP oriented players. But I does not know that for sure, only Cryptic does.
Ouch that was very blunt, but at the same time, does the average player contribute to the community and help keep Cryptic afloat I wonder? What does the average player need with a Tackyokinetic converter or a rule 62 console or in fact buy anything for that matter?
Cryptic's money comes from Locboxes and 3 pack ships , which (at my guess) get more purchases from PVE players by an order of several magnitude over PVP players .
So yeah , it's due to PVE players that you have a game to PVP in .
PVE has become so stale and bland with years of neglect. Seriously, when you play KASE/ISE/CSE for the 1000'th time, does it not hit you, there's more to the game than popping cubes and leeching.
Neglect is in the eye of the beholder .
Endgame (especially raid type game like STF's) has definitely been neglected .
Keybinds/Macro are the bread and butter of MMO's, look at WOW as a prime example. To ignore this is ignornace at best.
Perhaps , but due to the Sci-Fi nature of this game , it attracts a lot of ppl who are not gamers , nor MMO junkies , which is why any comparison to other games or MMO's only works up ti'll a point , beyond which there is no frame of reference for the 'other guy' .
As with any game, there will be those people who think Pug stomping is fun and it gives power. They exist in any game, but some people exist who will be happy to teach and share builds and provide feedback. If you don't ask you won't get it, simple.
My first experiences with PVP (which I still hold as most enjoyable) were back a few years ago in PVP matches at low level ranks , for several reasons :
When you have a handful of powers only , skill does actually become a factor .
No insta-kills .
Other 'noobs' to play with .
Then I got to Tier 5 and got almost ROFLStomped .
And for a while I did not understand why I was a decent player up to Lvl 50 , but @ Lvl 50 suddenly I was average at best .
PVP is not like PVE, it takes a long journey to become a better stronger player.
That's only partially true now , and that 'truth' only begins once you've leveled up your reputations . Until then you have no business in the current Lvl 50 PVP in STO .
Once you PVP you won't go back
Not true .
I enjoyed PVP until the JHAS and the pet spam cam along .
The I quit for over a year , and now I dabble occasionally in PUG land .
But the joy from the early days has left the building a long long time ago .
But don't complain about pug stomps when you don't make an effort to improve.
I'm sorry to say this , but it's not up to you to say what ppl should complain about .
If ppl want a more cookie-cutter PVP experience , be that via different queues for premades/pugs , or a different skill/power tree altogether , then they have the right to ask for that .
You can't force ppl to improve , and more then a few don't see your ideas as 'improvement' , either because they don't understand , don't want to learn or because they do understand (that some PVP builds are less then optimal for PVE for example -- despite what many PVP-ers tout) .
The Top 5% of PvE players, are PvP players. The current record holders I believe are all PvPers.
The person (V_Silverwings) who devised the first plan to crack NWS (when it was still hard) is not an avid PVP player , so there goes your theory about PVP-ers being the best of the best @ everything .
We can help you to perform better. Just ask, you do not even have to spec. I promise.;)
This is where I must disagree with you. Crypic is correct about PvE difficulty and the player base has already voted upon that. The metrics on content played clearly demonstrates this and the fact that the game player base has continued to grow rapidly drives the point home.
The average player does NOT want
- To learn the method of creating keybinds and then doing so
- Learn all the ins and outs of the game mechanics
- Heavily invest into their build to make it top tier/competitive
- And so on
They want to join the queue, do some pew pew and have some fun. With luck they get a prize when they are done. PuG stomping is the absolutely most toxic thing for a growth of the PvP playerbase.
The PvP forum community, and I mean no disrespect, is the vocal minority of the player minority. Therefore all feedback must be looked threw the lens of 'is this the direction Cryptic feels the game should go'.
Ouch. I disagree with your assessment of the "average player." WIth that logic in mind, they should all be able to fly around with balance energy setting 100% of the time, and expect to beat all optionals or get 1st rpice. This is on escorts that don;t even come with white DHC right of the batch. STOwiki remains empty, and accolade hunters never shared strategies and builds for beating the old CE....Let's just leave it at that.
You are misunderstanding what I'm trying to get at. Let me demonstrate with a few examples, instead. Please note that keybinds, math, premade kill strategies etc are not part of anything I'm talking about. Neither is pug stomping.
Lets take shield distribution and shields resists.
Problem 1: I see many players that don't redistribute or their shields (default bind is arrow keys, you can click on the ship icon in the UI, or you can indeed keybind it.)
Problem 2: Shield resists are very powerful.
Both components are essential when it comes to pvp. They are part of the game form day 1 (both of a given players career, and of the game as a whole).
Yet, PvE fails to incorporate those completely. Neither enemies or healing allies (think nws freigher or the kang) rebalance shields. Why? If a story mission mini-boss or mob, would make use of distributing shields. People would learn. There are many players out there with lvl 50 toons, maxed out rep, that are dumbfunded when they realize what shield distribution does to your survivability. Or how much the freighter benefits from TacTeam1. If just some NPC encounters were to include sharing heals, or shield rebalancing this would change. Make a 2min tutorial mission where *insert story explanation* your weapons are disabled, but you need to survive incoming fire by keeping your shields rebalanced.
Whatever the average STO players opinion and grasp of the matter. Shield resists or lack thereof matter. Its not like they can change the game settings to a mode where they don't. You don't need to understand the math. All it takes is a UI element showing you resist levels, but we don't have that. So shields resists become part of that esoteric knowledge you put beyond average players. It doesn't have to be. My point for all of this they don;t even need to pvp to get there. Incorporate different shield resist strengthening methods in NPCs and story missions mini-bosses. So that you can get a feel for how effective it is. Hell lets go to town with the idea, and include an engineering mini game in gateway, where your task is to design a Lt. level ship that has shield resists of X% over a given duration, by putting gear, and Bo skills on a paper doll, allocating skill points, and then seeing the numbers as if the ship were in sector space activating whatever you cooked up.
These are two examples, and I might just make a long post with many more one of these days. But imagine how much of the learning curve from PvE to PvP would be lessened if people at least had the option at hard difficulty to get familiar with these two concepts.
This is where I must disagree with you. Crypic is correct about PvE difficulty and the player base has already voted upon that. The metrics on content played clearly demonstrates this and the fact that the game player base has continued to grow rapidly drives the point home.
The average player does NOT want
- To learn the method of creating keybinds and then doing so
- Learn all the ins and outs of the game mechanics
- Heavily invest into their build to make it top tier/competitive
- And so on
They want to join the queue, do some pew pew and have some fun. With luck they get a prize when they are done. PuG stomping is the absolutely most toxic thing for a growth of the PvP playerbase.
The PvP forum community, and I mean no disrespect, is the vocal minority of the player minority. Therefore all feedback must be looked threw the lens of 'is this the direction Cryptic feels the game should go'.
I did not expect to see someone hit a bullseye twice in one thread. I think you're kind of right in the philosophy/over arching direction too but I would have thought the direction was to make money and lots of it.
I was going to write more but really I just cba with some of the ego's and arrogant p***ks in this thread which doesn't help get people into PvP regardless of the help offered.
I did not expect to see someone hit a bullseye twice in one thread. I think you're kind of right in the philosophy/over arching direction too but I would have thought the direction was to make money and lots of it.
I was going to write more but really I just cba with some of the ego's and arrogant p***ks in this thread which doesn't help get people into PvP regardless of the help offered.
I really don't get it. Where does anybody suggest that you
Have to become a math head?
PUG stomping is good?
Learn and use keybinds?
This is where I must disagree with you. Crypic is correct about PvE difficulty and the player base has already voted upon that. The metrics on content played clearly demonstrates this and the fact that the game player base has continued to grow rapidly drives the point home.
Growth for how long?
What sustainability is there?
What about the slow churn that we do not get to see?
The average player does NOT want
- To learn the method of creating keybinds and then doing so
- Learn all the ins and outs of the game mechanics
- Heavily invest into their build to make it top tier/competitive
- And so on
A toddler does not want to put on clothes.
They don't want to go to bed at the right time, they don't want to brush their teeth or share toys.
They want to eat sugar and drink juice exclusively if you introduce that behavior to them early on.
Sometimes for the betterment of the child, and by larger extent the entire household, you have to know when to guide them to something better.
All of the voting the playerbase has done against mechanics, have generally been poor mechanics.
You know things like mass SNB spam from NPCs (like PvPers can face now from stupid Nimbus Pirates Distress Call) - one shot attacks that give you "no chance" to react (sound familiar to another raging thread?).
All of the debuffing NPCs with "annoying" attacks, those are like the console p2w spam the PvP player faces, but only in miniature fashion performed by headless marionettes that enact the same dance, the same way, every single time.
I hate a lot of that stuff too when I end up running it thousands of times to grind for the stuff I actually want or actually want to do.
So don't be so quick to assume that what the playerbase has actually voted against is "challenge" as opposed to what they really vote against "unfun, poorly designed, spammy mechanics and repetition".
If they are highly skilled at this game, and by highly skilled I really mean they have a large amount of knowledge about how the game works, they have no need to spend cash money on stuff.
You are trying to force a conclusion that is not really there.
The best soldiers in the world will still want the best equipment available.
Decades of MMOs have conditioned players on gear progression.
Players, especially in competitive environments, will always want the best available.
Those lockbox keys on the exchange? They are put there by the players who want EC to buy a purple MK12 tactical console in the hope it will give their ship a bit more teeth...
Those are PvPers, and the PvE guys who run the top end DPS focused channels - the few PvErs who do in fact complain the game is too easy, too boring and that power creep is making what they do easier to attain.
Ouch. I disagree with your assessment of the "average player." WIth that logic in mind, they should all be able to fly around with balance energy setting 100% of the time, and expect to beat all optionals or get 1st rpice. This is on escorts that don;t even come with white DHC right of the batch. STOwiki remains empty, and accolade hunters never shared strategies and builds for beating the old CE....Let's just leave it at that.
You are misunderstanding what I'm trying to get at. Let me demonstrate with a few examples, instead. Please note that keybinds, math, premade kill strategies etc are not part of anything I'm talking about. Neither is pug stomping.
Lets take shield distribution and shields resists.
Problem 1: I see many players that don't redistribute or their shields (default bind is arrow keys, you can click on the ship icon in the UI, or you can indeed keybind it.)
Problem 2: Shield resists are very powerful.
Both components are essential when it comes to pvp. They are part of the game form day 1 (both of a given players career, and of the game as a whole).
Yet, PvE fails to incorporate those completely. Neither enemies or healing allies (think nws freigher or the kang) rebalance shields. Why? If a story mission mini-boss or mob, would make use of distributing shields. People would learn. There are many players out there with lvl 50 toons, maxed out rep, that are dumbfunded when they realize what shield distribution does to your survivability. Or how much the freighter benefits from TacTeam1. If just some NPC encounters were to include sharing heals, or shield rebalancing this would change. Make a 2min tutorial mission where *insert story explanation* your weapons are disabled, but you need to survive incoming fire by keeping your shields rebalanced.
Whatever the average STO players opinion and grasp of the matter. Shield resists or lack thereof matter. Its not like they can change the game settings to a mode where they don't. You don't need to understand the math. All it takes is a UI element showing you resist levels, but we don't have that. So shields resists become part of that esoteric knowledge you put beyond average players. It doesn't have to be. My point for all of this they don;t even need to pvp to get there. Incorporate different shield resist strengthening methods in NPCs and story missions mini-bosses. So that you can get a feel for how effective it is. Hell lets go to town with the idea, and include an engineering mini game in gateway, where your task is to design a Lt. level ship that has shield resists of X% over a given duration, by putting gear, and Bo skills on a paper doll, allocating skill points, and then seeing the numbers as if the ship were in sector space activating whatever you cooked up.
These are two examples, and I might just make a long post with many more one of these days. But imagine how much of the learning curve from PvE to PvP would be lessened if people at least had the option at hard difficulty to get familiar with these two concepts.
Very well said havam.
Is it me or do we end up on the same side of arguments these days?
I want to address this to the PvE players in this thread, who think all PvPers are after a quick pugstomp - and would otherwise join PvP if it weren't for the negative aspects that sometimes arise...
Leave your pre-concieved notions at the door.
Come join the Tyler Durden channel formed by AntonioSallieri.
The goal of that channel is to balance teams by career/ship as best as possible, break up players and put them on opposite sides.
Make the fights as fair as possible, and then let everyone have a good time.
The rules are really that simple.
Spend some time in that channel, ask about builds, tactics.
Join some of the friendly team speak servers with vet pvpers who are willing to answer questions - and be willing to adapt, to change your build.
This is where I must disagree with you. Crypic is correct about PvE difficulty and the player base has already voted upon that.
Hrmmm, this is a tough one - because it is hard to deny. Again though, it is not a PvP vs. PvE player issue...there are also PvE players that take issue with the level of "difficulty" in PvE in the game. There are probably more PvE players that take issue with it than PvP players. The issue is that the combined numbers of the PvE players and PvP players that take issue...is...small compared to the casual players that STO is ever increasingly aimed at.
Obviously the continued feedback is going to reflect that at an increasing rate.
I want to address this to the PvE players in this thread, who think all PvPers are after a quick pugstomp - and would otherwise join PvP if it weren't for the negative aspects that sometimes arise...
Leave your pre-concieved notions at the door.
Come join the Tyler Durden channel formed by AntonioSallieri.
The goal of that channel is to balance teams by career/ship as best as possible, break up players and put them on opposite sides.
Make the fights as fair as possible, and then let everyone have a good time.
The rules are really that simple.
Spend some time in that channel, ask about builds, tactics.
Join some of the friendly team speak servers with vet pvpers who are willing to answer questions - and be willing to adapt, to change your build.
It's really that easy.
It's not preconceived if it's one of the first things you see and continue to see. Most players first taste at PvP is Kerrat, can you honestly say the premade stomping in there is a good recruitment? Then if they decide to try PvP they will do it via the queues not your channel, it may be fun for a bit but then a premade starts roflstomping and people leave the queues for the day maybe more and it does happen a lot. I remember seeing Zone callouts in DS9 saying when a PvP premade was stomping the PvP queues and you would see the numbers queuing drop in a flash.
I appreciate that the wider PvP community aren't all arrogant toss pots and it is most likely the minority bringing down the majority. When I said about big ego's and other things I wasn't meaning people who objectively look at problems like yourself and others. As it is PvP is a lot more trouble than it's worth to most people and that is how it's seen due to some of your not so welcoming players.
Remember the saying, twice burnt thrice shy. I mean look at how the OP was seen by the person making the second comment. Rightly or wrongly it was seen as more PvP 1337ism and this is the message that most people are receiving.
Thank you for the information on the channel. To me PvP is just too much trouble than it's worth for more than a blat around in Kerrat but I shall recommend it to others in my fleet who are interested in PvP.
It's not preconceived if it's one of the first things you see and continue to see. Most players first taste at PvP is Kerrat, can you honestly say the premade stomping in there is a good recruitment? Then if they decide to try PvP they will do it via the queues not your channel, it may be fun for a bit but then a premade starts roflstomping and people leave the queues for the day maybe more and it does happen a lot. I remember seeing Zone callouts in DS9 saying when a PvP premade was stomping the PvP queues and you would see the numbers queuing drop in a flash.
Those same negative and toxic personalities are found amongst PvErs as well, they just have no ability to affect you.
Players have the option of putting their heads in the sand, and pretending everything is rosy or you can deal with it in other ways if you truly do want to PvP.
I appreciate that the wider PvP community aren't all arrogant toss pots and it is most likely the minority bringing down the majority. When I said about big ego's and other things I wasn't meaning people who objectively look at problems like yourself and others.
Remember the saying, twice burnt thrice shy. I mean look at how the OP was seen by the person making the second comment. Rightly or wrongly it was seen as more PvP 1337ism and this is the message that most people are receiving.
Thank you for the information on the channel. To me PvP is just too much trouble than it's worth for more than a blat around in Kerrat but I shall recommend it to others in my fleet who are interested in PvP.
Here's the thing bud, we all have a choice.
No one says you have to go into kerrat and deal with that.
You don't have to join Arena as a PUG player if you hate losing to more organized teams, or the other teams that have decent coordination but tend to win by spamming garbage.
Keep in mind though, many of the vet and top PvPers started out like that. Getting hammered in PUGs or kerrat and working their way towards great play, solid builds and friends to play with and coordinate for a stronger team.
Regardless, Tyler Durden channel exists to allow a place to play outside of those things.
The teams are regularly mixed and match, the goal is fun and close games where no side dominates due to skill/career/ship mismatches.
So if you ever do feel like trying it out, just know that its there and that the best thing to do is to state upfront that you'd like some build or tactics advice if you feel you need it.
While many PvPers dislike "noobs" - that usually means someone who thinks they know what they are talking about and doesn't ask for any help, and just does things that make no sense at all or refuses advice when given.
I can say its extremely rare that I've seen truely "new" to PvP players admit as much, ask for help and not receive it or see them made fun of.
There really is a difference between the two cases above, and I do recognize its hard to know when one or the other is happening.
Here is a clear example of what I'm talking about though, a thread where someone new to PvP recognizes this, asks for advice, recieves it and is able to absorb it and adapt to these new ideas being presented to them.
Like most double tappers and teams oriented around supporting that setup then. :P
Or teams that run coordinated GPG, TIF, chained AMS.
It's all out there, isn't it?
Or you, know, going out of your way to challenge a team to a match based on an extremely strict rules set and then popping nimbus pirate distress calls - I mean, they're technically not click-able consoles or a click-able set bonus, they don't even need to be slotted into your ship - I guess the spirit of the rules set doesn't matter in the least when you really have something you want to try and prove.
Yeah I guess, that win at all costs attitude can show up anywhere.
Sometimes for the betterment of the child, and by larger extent the entire household, you have to know when to guide them to something better.
Just who do you think you are exactly? PVPers are such gods and the rest of us are mere children who need to just do what we're told by our betters?
I'm not playing this game to work hard, re-learn scripting to deal with the TRIBBLE-poor keybind mechanics (not included in any manual, just an excessively wordly and overly-complicated post buried somewhere), depend upon others for my own survival, spend my time micro-managing cooldowns instead of just piloting, or drop over $100 each on 10 different characters. Its a game. There seems to be this condescending assumption that this 'must work hard to always be improving' is the only way to play. It isn't. There are plenty of people who understand HOW the high end stuff works and simply choose not to because they don't consider it worth the time/effort/money. That doesn't make them children, just people with different priorities than you, and they do not deserve this disdain.
Or teams that run coordinated GPG, TIF, chained AMS.
It's all out there, isn't it?
Or you, know, going out of your way to challenge a team to a match based on an extremely strict rules set and then popping nimbus pirate distress calls - I mean, they're technically not click-able consoles or a click-able set bonus, they don't even need to be slotted into your ship - I guess the spirit of the rules set doesn't matter in the least when you really have something you want to try and prove.
Yeah I guess, that win at all costs attitude can show up anywhere.
I have never run in any team that used those setups. You must be thinking about burners teams way back in 2012.
-nC- is a large fleet that is comprised of PvEers, casual PvPers, and a premade section.
Burner isn't a part of our premades, btw, so whatever he ran back in the day is his problem, not ours. In fact, since Shift came back to the game he stamped out most of that ****.
Btw, Nimbus pirates weren't banned in NO BS3 rules. The rule was no clickable consoles. Otherwise stuff like subspace field mod would be banned.
Read the rules before agreeing to a challenge match.
It's not up to us to hand-hold other teams. It is generally expected that when a team agrees to fight under a ruleset, that they fully understand all of the rules.
I'm sorry you saw so much of yourself in my post to flip out like that.
Less 'seeing myself' more seeing again this ego of those who think that because they're PVPers, they're inherently superior as people over mere PVE players. Already quit two fleets over that attitude, and now dealing with a third where I get told that, because I'm not a PVPer, I'm expected to shut up and do what I'm told by my betters (never mind that in fleet PVE activites I match up to them just fine). That condescending attitude is cancerous, and I can't be the only person who avoids PVP over it.
I'm not playing this game to work hard, re-learn scripting to deal with the TRIBBLE-poor keybind mechanics (not included in any manual, just an excessively wordly and overly-complicated post buried somewhere), depend upon others for my own survival, spend my time micro-managing cooldowns instead of just piloting, or drop over $100 each on 10 different characters. Its a game. There seems to be this condescending assumption that this 'must work hard to always be improving' is the only way to play. It isn't. There are plenty of people who understand HOW the high end stuff works and simply choose not to because they don't consider it worth the time/effort/money. That doesn't make them children, just people with different priorities than you, and they do not deserve this disdain.
youre right, the game should teach you all how to do all this.
not us... but guess what, the game doesnt. someone needs to.
The game certainly needs to be challenging to give a sense of accomplishment when one runs through the PvE content, otherwise playing is unfun.
I'm not buying the "I don't rock PvP so I must be nothing but a child to be led..." TRIBBLE iether.
Fact is STO's PvE is too casual at the easy setting and not very challenging past high health and numbers of foes at expert, and such leads to an unpleasant experience and boredom quickly.
Also true is the fact that PvP is so unstable as too push players away before they really get a chance to enjoy it. Seriuosly whom enjoys having to constantly change ones build every month because the playerbase cant decide what balanced and the Devs dont think before they add poor mechanics?
I believe that the playerbase is a much to blaim for PVE's lack of challenge as PvP's imbalance falls on the everchanging whims of its fans. Add that to what content is thrown without thought to how it may impact overall gameay and we get exactly what StO is....
Less 'seeing myself' more seeing again this ego of those who think that because they're PVPers, they're inherently superior as people over mere PVE players. Already quit two fleets over that attitude, and now dealing with a third where I get told that, because I'm not a PVPer, I'm expected to shut up and do what I'm told by my betters (never mind that in fleet PVE activites I match up to them just fine). That condescending attitude is cancerous, and I can't be the only person who avoids PVP over it.
I don't know where you keep finding these fleets, I mean I pvp frequently and I haven't found that attitude from any of the people I've pvped with or against. It is not a case of being a better person or being an inferior person and frankly when people in the game accuse me of being such a person I take offence to it, but that does not change that some players are more skilled than others and some pvp builds (mainly escorts and top end cruisers) do operate in pve better than the majority of pve builds. (Please note emphasis on some and most, not all)
Now you can label me as a pvper and treat me as you seem to every other pvper you have mentioned, seems to me that you have decided that every pvper is the same and for that my friend I feel sorry for you.
I have never run in any team that used those setups.
It doesn't really matter how you want to spin it, you keep wanting to harp on a single tactic that has been in the game since beta like its suddenly on the level of using 3x Embassy Ground CD Doffs.
I've seen players using all manner of things in the queues, I don't really care, and I don't come to the forums to harp on it repeatedly at every turn.
Only when someone decides they want to ride in on a high horse - when even guys in their own camp are far from squeaky clean "PvErs", "Casual PvPers" or otherwise, does it provoke me to get involved.
I'm happy to discuss it in game so we can keep this thread free of unneeded drama. Something I didn't start.
For a long time there has been a group of pvpers with 7337ist attitude in swtor it happens in sto it happens the problem is these people the premades so to speak ruin all the fun for casual players by basically stomping their faces into the ground. I'm sure the premades enjoy that. Many of these same premades will feel that simply because they do this they are genetically superior to anyone who doesn't do premades. Casual pvp play will not work unless teams are forced into a separate que than the single players.
It's worth mentioning that despite some poorly thought out words and analogies most of the people in this thread are nice people.
Also I like this "and some pvp builds (mainly escorts and top end cruisers) do operate in pve better than the majority of pve builds. (Please note emphasis on some and most, not all)" I think it's fairly accurate. All too often I have heard the "anything in PvP roflstomps PvE" being used and while PvP builds should be able to do all elite content it doesn't mean they're optimal for it.
For a long time there has been a group of pvpers with 7337ist attitude in swtor it happens in sto it happens the problem is these people the premades so to speak ruin all the fun for casual players by basically stomping their faces into the ground. I'm sure the premades enjoy that. Many of these same premades will feel that simply because they do this they are genetically superior to anyone who doesn't do premades. Casual pvp play will not work unless teams are forced into a separate que than the single players.
I don't ever recall this games wing labeled as having casual pvp.
Why do you automatically assume it does?
Pve is casual enough, pvp shouldn't be.
Maybe they shouldn't let single players que at all? Maybe the game should flat out say "you want to pvp? It's dangerous to go alone. Take a friend."
Comments
Ouch that was very blunt, but at the same time, does the average player contribute to the community and help keep Cryptic afloat I wonder? What does the average player need with a Tackyokinetic converter or a rule 62 console or in fact buy anything for that matter?
Why do they need to buy any Fleet gear to which you are advertising in your signature if that is what you are saying in your thread?
PVE has become so stale and bland with years of neglect. Seriously, when you play KASE/ISE/CSE for the 1000'th time, does it not hit you, there's more to the game than popping cubes and leeching.
Keybinds/Macro are the bread and butter of MMO's, look at WOW as a prime example. To ignore this is ignornace at best. Seriously I have more than 15 skills to use, do you have 15 fingers? or do you love clicking your mouse and trying to find that elusive skill hidden somewhere while someone is pew pewing you?
As with any game, there will be those people who think Pug stomping is fun and it gives power. They exist in any game, but some people exist who will be happy to teach and share builds and provide feedback. If you don't ask you won't get it, simple.
PVP is the End game, not ROFLStomping Cubes/ probes. I never gave PVP much of a thought back in the day until I joined the queues, sure I got my TRIBBLE kicked and felt silly, as I was new back then, not using TT and having a rainbow build (Hey it looked cool).
But you learn through your defeats. In fact i welcome death, as the next time I meet him, I will laugh in the jaws of defeat and come back stronger. I don't know about you, but I enjoy a challenge. PVP is not like PVE, it takes a long journey to become a better stronger player. Once you PVP you won't go back, you will see what Cryptic have been neglecting all this time and it's really sad.
PVP is now the only thing worth playing STO for me, not the endless grind to which there is no end and what is the purpose of it?Bragging rights for a T5 base? Gloating you killed a cube just by looking at it?
If you think Pug Stomping is toxic, you are missing the point. If you don't like a challenge then by all means carry on being ignorant and popping your cubes/gates and little probes and thinking your GOD. But don't conplain about pug stomps when you don't make an effort to improve.
The more you put into something, the more you get out of it.
In regards to the Queue, it isn't our fault there isn't a dedicated queue system for premades or the fact we have to wait more than 20 mins for a pop to occur. It is cryptic who has neglected this for far too long.
Pew pew and having fun with a nice reward is cool, but getting less than 20k EC each game a reward to you or anyone for that matter? Dilithium aside.
Perhaps having a casual 'easy' mode PVP Queue where there are restrictions on gear would be more useful or even hours played in PVP or having certain requirements before entering queue like a basic tutorial on PVP, So tutorials on all 3 careers and basic tanking, escorts and boff ability for e.g. Again simple stuff that cryptic has failed to implement since day 1.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Just said that your first point was not the case. But Ok.
You also did answer your questions about PvP... But on you hypotheticals on if borg did what we do? They have on average 1.4 million health on a cube, if it poped Aux2SIF and all sorts of heals... you would get smashed... and it would not die. The way PvE is constructed is to allow for large health to make up for the lack of healing. High damage to make up for the lack of timing, bridge officers, and inteligence from AI opponents.
The Top 5% of PvE players, are PvP players. The current record holders I believe are all PvPers.
Now as to being bad at PvP, please ask for help before you condemn the community as liers, egomaniacs, charlitens, cheaters, ect. We can help you to perform better. Just ask, you do not even have to spec. I promise.;)
the PVP help thread is a useful place to start, I know, that's where I got my PVP foundation from. The rest will come through experiance and exposure
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Because they can and want to.
If they are highly skilled at this game, and by highly skilled I really mean they have a large amount of knowledge about how the game works, they have no need to spend cash money on stuff.
Those lockbox keys on the exchange? They are put there by the players who want EC to buy a purple MK12 tactical console in the hope it will give their ship a bit more teeth even if simply using the proper bridge officer abilities would accomplish the same objective for a fraction of the cost. Their are exceptions no doubt, but the vast majority of the real cash STO gets is from the whales whom I doubt are all hardcore PvP oriented players. But I does not know that for sure, only Cryptic does.
Cryptic's money comes from Locboxes and 3 pack ships , which (at my guess) get more purchases from PVE players by an order of several magnitude over PVP players .
So yeah , it's due to PVE players that you have a game to PVP in .
Neglect is in the eye of the beholder .
Endgame (especially raid type game like STF's) has definitely been neglected .
Perhaps , but due to the Sci-Fi nature of this game , it attracts a lot of ppl who are not gamers , nor MMO junkies , which is why any comparison to other games or MMO's only works up ti'll a point , beyond which there is no frame of reference for the 'other guy' .
My first experiences with PVP (which I still hold as most enjoyable) were back a few years ago in PVP matches at low level ranks , for several reasons :
When you have a handful of powers only , skill does actually become a factor .
No insta-kills .
Other 'noobs' to play with .
Then I got to Tier 5 and got almost ROFLStomped .
And for a while I did not understand why I was a decent player up to Lvl 50 , but @ Lvl 50 suddenly I was average at best .
That's only partially true now , and that 'truth' only begins once you've leveled up your reputations . Until then you have no business in the current Lvl 50 PVP in STO .
Not true .
I enjoyed PVP until the JHAS and the pet spam cam along .
The I quit for over a year , and now I dabble occasionally in PUG land .
But the joy from the early days has left the building a long long time ago .
I'm sorry to say this , but it's not up to you to say what ppl should complain about .
If ppl want a more cookie-cutter PVP experience , be that via different queues for premades/pugs , or a different skill/power tree altogether , then they have the right to ask for that .
You can't force ppl to improve , and more then a few don't see your ideas as 'improvement' , either because they don't understand , don't want to learn or because they do understand (that some PVP builds are less then optimal for PVE for example -- despite what many PVP-ers tout) .
The person (V_Silverwings) who devised the first plan to crack NWS (when it was still hard) is not an avid PVP player , so there goes your theory about PVP-ers being the best of the best @ everything .
Be nice and don't lie . :P
Ouch. I disagree with your assessment of the "average player." WIth that logic in mind, they should all be able to fly around with balance energy setting 100% of the time, and expect to beat all optionals or get 1st rpice. This is on escorts that don;t even come with white DHC right of the batch. STOwiki remains empty, and accolade hunters never shared strategies and builds for beating the old CE....Let's just leave it at that.
You are misunderstanding what I'm trying to get at. Let me demonstrate with a few examples, instead. Please note that keybinds, math, premade kill strategies etc are not part of anything I'm talking about. Neither is pug stomping.
Lets take shield distribution and shields resists.
Problem 1: I see many players that don't redistribute or their shields (default bind is arrow keys, you can click on the ship icon in the UI, or you can indeed keybind it.)
Problem 2: Shield resists are very powerful.
Both components are essential when it comes to pvp. They are part of the game form day 1 (both of a given players career, and of the game as a whole).
Yet, PvE fails to incorporate those completely. Neither enemies or healing allies (think nws freigher or the kang) rebalance shields. Why? If a story mission mini-boss or mob, would make use of distributing shields. People would learn. There are many players out there with lvl 50 toons, maxed out rep, that are dumbfunded when they realize what shield distribution does to your survivability. Or how much the freighter benefits from TacTeam1. If just some NPC encounters were to include sharing heals, or shield rebalancing this would change. Make a 2min tutorial mission where *insert story explanation* your weapons are disabled, but you need to survive incoming fire by keeping your shields rebalanced.
Whatever the average STO players opinion and grasp of the matter. Shield resists or lack thereof matter. Its not like they can change the game settings to a mode where they don't. You don't need to understand the math. All it takes is a UI element showing you resist levels, but we don't have that. So shields resists become part of that esoteric knowledge you put beyond average players. It doesn't have to be. My point for all of this they don;t even need to pvp to get there. Incorporate different shield resist strengthening methods in NPCs and story missions mini-bosses. So that you can get a feel for how effective it is. Hell lets go to town with the idea, and include an engineering mini game in gateway, where your task is to design a Lt. level ship that has shield resists of X% over a given duration, by putting gear, and Bo skills on a paper doll, allocating skill points, and then seeing the numbers as if the ship were in sector space activating whatever you cooked up.
These are two examples, and I might just make a long post with many more one of these days. But imagine how much of the learning curve from PvE to PvP would be lessened if people at least had the option at hard difficulty to get familiar with these two concepts.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I did not expect to see someone hit a bullseye twice in one thread. I think you're kind of right in the philosophy/over arching direction too but I would have thought the direction was to make money and lots of it.
I was going to write more but really I just cba with some of the ego's and arrogant p***ks in this thread which doesn't help get people into PvP regardless of the help offered.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Have to become a math head?
PUG stomping is good?
Learn and use keybinds?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Is the best way to become a mediocre PvPer.
I'm so damned confused about whats going on in this thread , that i m just going to give Jorf a hug
*Hugs Jorf and quickly dugs away*
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Growth for how long?
What sustainability is there?
What about the slow churn that we do not get to see?
A toddler does not want to put on clothes.
They don't want to go to bed at the right time, they don't want to brush their teeth or share toys.
They want to eat sugar and drink juice exclusively if you introduce that behavior to them early on.
Sometimes for the betterment of the child, and by larger extent the entire household, you have to know when to guide them to something better.
All of the voting the playerbase has done against mechanics, have generally been poor mechanics.
You know things like mass SNB spam from NPCs (like PvPers can face now from stupid Nimbus Pirates Distress Call) - one shot attacks that give you "no chance" to react (sound familiar to another raging thread?).
All of the debuffing NPCs with "annoying" attacks, those are like the console p2w spam the PvP player faces, but only in miniature fashion performed by headless marionettes that enact the same dance, the same way, every single time.
I hate a lot of that stuff too when I end up running it thousands of times to grind for the stuff I actually want or actually want to do.
So don't be so quick to assume that what the playerbase has actually voted against is "challenge" as opposed to what they really vote against "unfun, poorly designed, spammy mechanics and repetition".
You are trying to force a conclusion that is not really there.
The best soldiers in the world will still want the best equipment available.
Decades of MMOs have conditioned players on gear progression.
Players, especially in competitive environments, will always want the best available.
Those are PvPers, and the PvE guys who run the top end DPS focused channels - the few PvErs who do in fact complain the game is too easy, too boring and that power creep is making what they do easier to attain.
Very well said havam.
Is it me or do we end up on the same side of arguments these days?
Even more terrifying you are agreeing with Jorf!
Is the end truly nigh? :P
Leave your pre-concieved notions at the door.
Come join the Tyler Durden channel formed by AntonioSallieri.
The goal of that channel is to balance teams by career/ship as best as possible, break up players and put them on opposite sides.
Make the fights as fair as possible, and then let everyone have a good time.
The rules are really that simple.
Spend some time in that channel, ask about builds, tactics.
Join some of the friendly team speak servers with vet pvpers who are willing to answer questions - and be willing to adapt, to change your build.
It's really that easy.
Hrmmm, this is a tough one - because it is hard to deny. Again though, it is not a PvP vs. PvE player issue...there are also PvE players that take issue with the level of "difficulty" in PvE in the game. There are probably more PvE players that take issue with it than PvP players. The issue is that the combined numbers of the PvE players and PvP players that take issue...is...small compared to the casual players that STO is ever increasingly aimed at.
Obviously the continued feedback is going to reflect that at an increasing rate.
Cryptic asks what folks want.
Group A wants X. Group B wants Y.
X is ignored. Y is added.
Group A shrinks. Group B increases.
Cryptic asks again what folks want.
It's the cycle...
It's not preconceived if it's one of the first things you see and continue to see. Most players first taste at PvP is Kerrat, can you honestly say the premade stomping in there is a good recruitment? Then if they decide to try PvP they will do it via the queues not your channel, it may be fun for a bit but then a premade starts roflstomping and people leave the queues for the day maybe more and it does happen a lot. I remember seeing Zone callouts in DS9 saying when a PvP premade was stomping the PvP queues and you would see the numbers queuing drop in a flash.
I appreciate that the wider PvP community aren't all arrogant toss pots and it is most likely the minority bringing down the majority. When I said about big ego's and other things I wasn't meaning people who objectively look at problems like yourself and others. As it is PvP is a lot more trouble than it's worth to most people and that is how it's seen due to some of your not so welcoming players.
Remember the saying, twice burnt thrice shy. I mean look at how the OP was seen by the person making the second comment. Rightly or wrongly it was seen as more PvP 1337ism and this is the message that most people are receiving.
Thank you for the information on the channel. To me PvP is just too much trouble than it's worth for more than a blat around in Kerrat but I shall recommend it to others in my fleet who are interested in PvP.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Those same negative and toxic personalities are found amongst PvErs as well, they just have no ability to affect you.
Players have the option of putting their heads in the sand, and pretending everything is rosy or you can deal with it in other ways if you truly do want to PvP.
Here's the thing bud, we all have a choice.
No one says you have to go into kerrat and deal with that.
You don't have to join Arena as a PUG player if you hate losing to more organized teams, or the other teams that have decent coordination but tend to win by spamming garbage.
Keep in mind though, many of the vet and top PvPers started out like that. Getting hammered in PUGs or kerrat and working their way towards great play, solid builds and friends to play with and coordinate for a stronger team.
Regardless, Tyler Durden channel exists to allow a place to play outside of those things.
The teams are regularly mixed and match, the goal is fun and close games where no side dominates due to skill/career/ship mismatches.
So if you ever do feel like trying it out, just know that its there and that the best thing to do is to state upfront that you'd like some build or tactics advice if you feel you need it.
While many PvPers dislike "noobs" - that usually means someone who thinks they know what they are talking about and doesn't ask for any help, and just does things that make no sense at all or refuses advice when given.
I can say its extremely rare that I've seen truely "new" to PvP players admit as much, ask for help and not receive it or see them made fun of.
There really is a difference between the two cases above, and I do recognize its hard to know when one or the other is happening.
Here is a clear example of what I'm talking about though, a thread where someone new to PvP recognizes this, asks for advice, recieves it and is able to absorb it and adapt to these new ideas being presented to them.
Like most double tappers and teams oriented around supporting that setup then. :P
Or teams that run coordinated GPG, TIF, chained AMS.
It's all out there, isn't it?
Or you, know, going out of your way to challenge a team to a match based on an extremely strict rules set and then popping nimbus pirate distress calls - I mean, they're technically not click-able consoles or a click-able set bonus, they don't even need to be slotted into your ship - I guess the spirit of the rules set doesn't matter in the least when you really have something you want to try and prove.
Yeah I guess, that win at all costs attitude can show up anywhere.
Just who do you think you are exactly? PVPers are such gods and the rest of us are mere children who need to just do what we're told by our betters?
I'm not playing this game to work hard, re-learn scripting to deal with the TRIBBLE-poor keybind mechanics (not included in any manual, just an excessively wordly and overly-complicated post buried somewhere), depend upon others for my own survival, spend my time micro-managing cooldowns instead of just piloting, or drop over $100 each on 10 different characters. Its a game. There seems to be this condescending assumption that this 'must work hard to always be improving' is the only way to play. It isn't. There are plenty of people who understand HOW the high end stuff works and simply choose not to because they don't consider it worth the time/effort/money. That doesn't make them children, just people with different priorities than you, and they do not deserve this disdain.
Hey there, nice knee-jerk reaction.
I'm sorry you saw so much of yourself in my post to flip out like that.
We, the players, play the game created by the Developers.
Guess which one of those 2 groups are the guardians and care takers of the universe of STO?
Guess which one of those 2 groups could be considered that universe's "children"?
I have never run in any team that used those setups. You must be thinking about burners teams way back in 2012.
-nC- is a large fleet that is comprised of PvEers, casual PvPers, and a premade section.
Burner isn't a part of our premades, btw, so whatever he ran back in the day is his problem, not ours. In fact, since Shift came back to the game he stamped out most of that ****.
Btw, Nimbus pirates weren't banned in NO BS3 rules. The rule was no clickable consoles. Otherwise stuff like subspace field mod would be banned.
Read the rules before agreeing to a challenge match.
It's not up to us to hand-hold other teams. It is generally expected that when a team agrees to fight under a ruleset, that they fully understand all of the rules.
Here are the rules for that tourney:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=817631
They are quite clear.
And if you ever want an addendum to any rules, feel free to suggest it.
Less 'seeing myself' more seeing again this ego of those who think that because they're PVPers, they're inherently superior as people over mere PVE players. Already quit two fleets over that attitude, and now dealing with a third where I get told that, because I'm not a PVPer, I'm expected to shut up and do what I'm told by my betters (never mind that in fleet PVE activites I match up to them just fine). That condescending attitude is cancerous, and I can't be the only person who avoids PVP over it.
youre right, the game should teach you all how to do all this.
not us... but guess what, the game doesnt. someone needs to.
Do you even Science Bro?
I'm not buying the "I don't rock PvP so I must be nothing but a child to be led..." TRIBBLE iether.
Fact is STO's PvE is too casual at the easy setting and not very challenging past high health and numbers of foes at expert, and such leads to an unpleasant experience and boredom quickly.
Also true is the fact that PvP is so unstable as too push players away before they really get a chance to enjoy it. Seriuosly whom enjoys having to constantly change ones build every month because the playerbase cant decide what balanced and the Devs dont think before they add poor mechanics?
I believe that the playerbase is a much to blaim for PVE's lack of challenge as PvP's imbalance falls on the everchanging whims of its fans. Add that to what content is thrown without thought to how it may impact overall gameay and we get exactly what StO is....
R.I.P
I don't know where you keep finding these fleets, I mean I pvp frequently and I haven't found that attitude from any of the people I've pvped with or against. It is not a case of being a better person or being an inferior person and frankly when people in the game accuse me of being such a person I take offence to it, but that does not change that some players are more skilled than others and some pvp builds (mainly escorts and top end cruisers) do operate in pve better than the majority of pve builds. (Please note emphasis on some and most, not all)
Now you can label me as a pvper and treat me as you seem to every other pvper you have mentioned, seems to me that you have decided that every pvper is the same and for that my friend I feel sorry for you.
It doesn't really matter how you want to spin it, you keep wanting to harp on a single tactic that has been in the game since beta like its suddenly on the level of using 3x Embassy Ground CD Doffs.
I've seen players using all manner of things in the queues, I don't really care, and I don't come to the forums to harp on it repeatedly at every turn.
Only when someone decides they want to ride in on a high horse - when even guys in their own camp are far from squeaky clean "PvErs", "Casual PvPers" or otherwise, does it provoke me to get involved.
I'm happy to discuss it in game so we can keep this thread free of unneeded drama. Something I didn't start.
It's worth mentioning that despite some poorly thought out words and analogies most of the people in this thread are nice people.
Also I like this "and some pvp builds (mainly escorts and top end cruisers) do operate in pve better than the majority of pve builds. (Please note emphasis on some and most, not all)" I think it's fairly accurate. All too often I have heard the "anything in PvP roflstomps PvE" being used and while PvP builds should be able to do all elite content it doesn't mean they're optimal for it.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I don't ever recall this games wing labeled as having casual pvp.
Why do you automatically assume it does?
Pve is casual enough, pvp shouldn't be.
Maybe they shouldn't let single players que at all? Maybe the game should flat out say "you want to pvp? It's dangerous to go alone. Take a friend."
Problem solved.
Do you even Science Bro?