Hrmm, he brought up the difference between the player that might have something for any numbers of reasons that may have nothing to do with its overall effectiveness - heck, they might have zilch that would help what they're using and a coordinated effort from a group that is maximizing the effect of such said items...and how Joe Random shouldn't be treated to the same contempt that a team would.
I mean, it's easy enough to see how you went where you did with it...why you did though...is questionable.
Who decides these rules was there a vote that i missed along with half of the pvp community?
Do certain players have more say so on what is broken then others if so why?
Who gave them this power cryptic the devs the players?
Why do people say it takes no skill to use these broken consoles abilities and powers or there is no counter.
Why is it that people use these abilities and cry when others use it on them?
Who sets the criteria for what is broken or cheese in this game?
Like so many have said, in queues you can use what ever you want. No one is going to report you to the devs. But.. but.. you really need to use thing like TIF or GP with a 5 team pre made against pugs? If you do, then you are doing it wrong.
Look what happened to ground. Ground PVP was always dead, but never like now. Why? Because there are some broken mechanics that pre made use it to just stomp pugs. Even ground lovers do not want to even come close to that now.
I think, that premades, have some sort of responsibility to not abuse broken mechanics, that is why we run our pramde with out GB and TIF (and some other broken stuff). There are some lines.. you just dont spam 5 GB and TIF in to pugs that dont know even how to drive their ships.
Like I said, there are not rules in queues, but the way you play speacks for your self. In pre made matches, like tournaments or fleet duels, well, the rules are what they made.
Yesterday (I think it was you) your fleet want it to make a premade duel vs our fleet, I told you fine, but we play with rules. You refuse it, end of story.
Like I told you 10000 times, I dont want fleet drama.. I dont like them, this is a game, we play.. nothing more.. we have too mach drama with cryptic to even waste time on fleets vs fleets.
Those of you that like to say X or Y is easily countered... never play with out your friends at your side.
That is your main issue.
Its easy to say load a sci team... when you never play with out 4 friends with you. Its not hard for a premade to counter 1-2 tif fields... or a couple Gravity Pulses. Or pretty much any of the other cheese that is in the game.
It is very easy to counter them when 2 of your friends have dual Sci team setups... with the team having enough tac team to cover those that are loading sci teams... ect ect.
The issue is running that junk against pugs in the ques... you can't expect auto teamed players to have optimal team counter setups... which is why running things like Grvaity pulse (that hits everyone on the team) is seen as TRIBBLE play by most people. If a few people on that auto team in fact do have conuters loaded they are going to use them on themselves 9 times out of 10 instead of bailing out the guy on there team getting focused on by the premade.
Honestly though I could care less... keep running that type of junk in the ques all you like... you simply make Tyler Durden stronger. lol
I know I say it here more then play in game these days... but join [Tyler Durden] Leave your fleets and teams at the door... mix the matches up and have a good time. What I find very telling about TD matches in general is that after a few rounds most people end up taking the types of things people are talking about here off there ships... we balance the teams out so you get an equal serving, almost always cures the BS builds after a couple rounds.
PSW, Scramble, TBR and VM are high-level science abilities. Not exactly easy to mount.
Nadeon Detonator, AMS, Impulse Cap - Consoles you have to pay for if you're fed. Not easy to obtain either.
APO - high-level tactical. Not much of an issue for escorts, but other ships have trouble.
Target Aux - Unreliable. Rarely actually causes shutdown.
Also, make up your mind on whether we're talking about team vs team or pug vs pug tactics. Team vs team - team strategies can counter a few, but not a stack. Pug vs pug - well, maybe. But let's analyse further, yes?
I shall assume pug vs pug.
Alright, considering the counters, escorts may use APO to get away. Science ships have access to the counters you mentioned (although Scramble is not a true counter - it only turns the ability into a 2-way thing)
But what about cruisers? Most don't have access to the ones mentioned. And most of them don't have the speed to get away, even with EPTE engaged. And how about Evasive? Well, it's the only one now. The canny player will wait until the opponent has used up EM to pop the ability. Besides that, your analysis is flawed in that the TIF user can and will pursue the enemy ship. The Temporal ships are quite fast, and so can easily catch up to most other ships. Running away isn't so easy when the other player can just follow you.
Furthermore, the ability has the potential to affect the entire enemy team. Does this hence mean that it is alright that the entire enemy team has to drop everything and run away, just because of one ability use?
Besides that, your analysis of the cost-of-use is faulty. 2 weapon slots and a console - that's correct. But the synergy is extremely high! Console - boosts turnrate, grav gens (IIRC), and crits. Boosts your maneuverability and your slows, making it easier to land the TIF. I use the console on every one of my ships. The Chroniton bank - again, procs to slow the target, making it easier to land TIF. Not to mention the accuracy is not truly relevant to cruisers, which are certainly losing out, as seen in previous paragraphs. TIF also benefits the bank, as slows make it more likely to hit. Temporal Disruption Device? Again, slow synergy - and if you slow the other person with TIF, even more likely to hit - or just drop it point-blank.
So, the weapons may be junk on their own, but put together, they synergise very well to create a sum much greater than the parts.
Throughout this analysis, you can see that fast ships and most high-level maneuverable science will be able to counter. However, cruisers are left in the dust. In fact, any slow ship, even a science one, will be hard-pressed to counter as VM requires forward arc, getting into 3k range of a moving target is near-impossible on a slow ship (PSW), and Scramble doesn't help. TBR is a possibility, but......other person pops PH/APO or any of the other myriad counters to that, and they're home free.
The meta is already badly skewed towards maneuverable ships. We don't need an ability that
a) results in huge disadvantage if not countered
b) results in further skewing towards fast ships
c) requires little true cost to use
d) requires the use of paid-for consoles in order to counter if in a slow ship
e) reduces the ability of the target to activate counters (cooldowns)
f) can affect multiple targets
I haven't even mentioned the desync issue some users have (fixed for some, but still very much present) and the UI lag on pushing buttons that results (personal experience).
And this is why TIF is frowned upon. On the surface, they may seem to have plenty of counters, but on in-depth analysis, it's not so easy.
Oh, and about that bottish stuff? Knock it off. It's old, and it's never been proven.
Hmm....wonder if this thread will be gone by the time I wake up. Oh well.
I think you pretty much know nothing about the abilities you are talking about tbr scramble can all be had at lt level psw and vm can each be had at ltcm. Just about every ship in the game released in the last year has a ltcm uni station. So is it that you cant fit it or dont want to fit it.
That is peoples problem you dont want to fit the counters on your ship not that you cant. What the hell kind of cruiser cant fit an omega a healboat because any dps cruiser i see has omega and there are even cruisers that have universal ltcm to put a shockwave scramble or vm. i know that doesnt fit into your optimal build it takes a spot for something that is better something that you like to use.
Well im here to tell you that there are no optimal builds every build can be beat unless of course you do something tricky and make up rules. Rules with no criteria as far as ive seen from the responses in the thread except its op.
Only 2 responses fom 2 people on there opinions on why they think with actual data its op the rest are because you suck if you use it its banned in the tournament. I think the number 1 critera for people calling something broke is because they lost to it. The funny thing is its like some people just give up when they get hit with it maybe thats why you died when you were inversioned because you sure the hell didnt die from the inversion that does 0 dammage mind you. Difficult to come buy you cant grind a mill ec for a console thats sad.
So a beam that has a 2.5% chance to proc a debuff is going to help me with inversion im going to time my inversion around a 2.5 percent chance to proc ok.
That torpedo is useless as **** on a bull except in a very specialized situation and i could think of 10 things id rather have instead.
The console is nice for just about every ship in the game but besides the graviton bonus It doesnt help me much id rather have any other console for my sci.
Target aux is unreliable but does everything have to be a 100% with all these counters a player of your skill level cant find 1 to get away.
First and foremost I would like to thank you for sharing your opinion in connection with PvP. This is exactly what makes the community forward. However not in this arguing tonality.
I truly do not understand what rules you are speak of.
Generally in PvP there is no such rules you've written down. Nevertheless the public jugdes those players who uses only these (called) "chesse" or "broken" consoles or abilities. Because the public jugdes, sad, but they do. However there are who are interested in the public's opinion. This is why because they think these things must not be used in PvP, like as this new elachi console or I should say "Click and dead" console (when it first came out).
But back to the point: if you speak about tournaments' rules, you are wrong. Why? Because if someone undertakes a task like organising a whole tournament, co-ordinating the matches, creating score system etc., then that is obvious that he/she/they will make rules to have fair matches. Otherwise like Team A would have used a lot of these "cheese" and Team B would have not used at all, then the only result from the match will be an argument. Also if rules are not clarified.
With rules they secure that nobody can generate unnecessary and/or irrelevant arguments. (Another example, if you lend someone a certain amount of money, I guess, you think that you will decide when it must be given back, etc. this is also a rule, and you were the "organiser", you were who gave the money. Only here they give their free-time to make a good evening for the community by playing in equal matches.)
This must be followed, not jugded. If you are not pleased with the rules they made, you do not have to participate in, but you are also able to create your own tournament, with your own rules or without rules.
Let's jump to another topic: you speak about abilities and consoles, and other content of STO can be used in PvP. You are right, everything that can be obtained in-game, can be used as well. But the problem with that, that most of the players are only using these stuffs, this is what makes them be called spammers, because the enemy only sees, grav pulse used, then again and again, at the same time with scramble sensors (with the DOFF) are just flying all the time, then 4-5 subnucs, 4-5 inversion fields, new elachi consoles, AMS's... This is the problem, that without these they cannot win. With these tournaments, called "No BS" they are showing with out these (within fair circumstances) there can be also winner, second, third etc., and unfortunately lasts as well.
However this is what shows standards, not the general queues in these times. Sad but true.
Think about it as well, not just about counters.
Yours sincerely,
Thank you sir for your productive post as you will see a sane arguement will get a sane response. I would like to say something about what the public decides on what is to be used statement. For every person that says grav pulse or inversion is op i can find the same ammount of people that say its not if not more.
So it is unfair for anyone to say there is a concensus on anything there is not. Ill bring up some recent things that are broken the black hole console web mines go back a little bit to romulan embassy ground doffs boarding party 11 minute cooldowns VOLDERMORT double shields sub nuke doffs all these exploits were game breaking and broken not working as intended.
They were all fixed some faster then others some with much less crying and complaining on the forums. There has been more crying on these forums about grav pulse and inversion then any of these others. So why hasnt cryptic fixed them everything else game breaking and broken is fixed. Ill tell you why because there not game breaking or broken they work as intended if not they would be fixed.
Inversion will not win a match for you grav pulse will not win a match for you. It will help win a match for you but i think every ability we pick for our ship we pick to help us win if not your just restricting the game play experience.
Something to prove my point sad pandas best fleet in the game ive never seen a video or heard them being beat by inversion or grav pulse so if its so op why arent they getting stomped by lesser premades that use it. The answer is its not op its not an i win button its just annoying thats all.
Your point about everyone uses them is a great point everyone uses alot of things that are powerful wich brings me to bo double tap with the 35% bleedthrough doffs. ewp wich we all know has broken mechanics that go with it from not having hazards reliable clear it to visual problems why are these allowed and not being raged about by these same people. ill tell you why look at the videos from the no bs tourney they are all using it. Does that make sense?
The point of a tourney having rules by all means make as many as you want but dont use them as a standard in premade and pug matches. Dont call people noobs and cowards because they wont follow your rules. Its funny people on here think that the person who uses inversion is worse then the person who belittle berates calls names that cant be written here thats whats funny.
So i believe your in bootcamp and ive seen others from bootcamp in this thread claim that he will name and shame anyone in public chat for using an ability he doesnt like is that what is being taught at bootcamp name and shame the P2WERS. I would hope not i dont think cryptic would sponsor something that named and shamed its customers in public forums for buying and using something they sold them what do you think. The pvp community is much larger then the few that post on these forums and yap all day in opvp. So dont think the ones with the biggest mouths speak for everyone escpecially not the majority.Should these few have more say so then others ?
So on and so forth. Yes, there are counters that you can land (VM, etc) and those work. However, the gripe with TIF stems from what it does. It's a massive AoE debuff that gives your team a MASSIVE advantage for no cost other than $$$. Not like you've got to coordinate Alpha strikes/heals/debuffs, you just pop this and your team has a huge advantage.
I havent put a dime into this game since free to play so how did i get this stuff if you need cash for it go grind some dillithium what else do you have to do the ques are dead how many premade matches a night do you do? So i guess my P2wW is no different then your grind to win reputation that im sure you use. I would love for you to in a premade keep me 3k away but no more then 5k away using inversion it wont happen so yes you will either get shockwaved or run out of 5 k either way inversion countered.
I havent put a dime into this game since free to play so how did i get this stuff if you need cash for it go grind some dillithium what else do you have to do the ques are dead how many premade matches a night do you do? So i guess my P2wW is no different then your grind to win reputation that im sure you use. I would love for you to in a premade keep me 3k away but no more then 5k away using inversion it wont happen so yes you will either get shockwaved or run out of 5 k either way inversion countered.
You may not have paid the Zen for them, but someone did.
As far as how many premades I do, we've had 3 Panda/Lag interfleet matches tonight alone. And trust me, if we (in a premade) wanted to keep you in a TIF, we could. Not just the Pandas, but any premade with even basic coordination.
Furthermore, you've yet to acknowledge that problem with TIF. Yeah, it's got some counters, but do you at least admit the fact that it is OP?
I don't like cheese on sausage or eggs. I don't do cheese for breakfast. Then again, the ex put grape jelly on her sausage biscuits. I always found that odd. But grape jelly is off-topic, and I don't want to derail the thread by talking about various fruit preserves when it's about various dairy products.
I don't like cheese on sausage or eggs. I don't do cheese for breakfast. Then again, the ex put grape jelly on her sausage biscuits. I always found that odd. But grape jelly is off-topic, and I don't want to derail the thread by talking about various fruit preserves when it's about various dairy products.
this is an off-topic since the beggining, fell free to post whatever you want :cool:
p.d: i think i don't like cheese mostly cause i'm lactose intolerant
People like the OP is one of the reason why I stay away from PVP. Lets bundle our ships with P2W TRIBBLE and make sure I win. Well I have a more "chevaleresque" ( It's french google it) way of thinking about PvP and just have a dislike for those that use broken mechanics or OP console to have much better chance of winning when faced with a better opponent.
Sometimes I think of getting all those broken stuff, get in the Q and just use them against those that abuse those object to stomp pug group, you know keep it in inventory just in case................
Jamal : Tactical space specialist. USS Bug Warrior and many others
E'Mc2 : Science Reman torp T'Varo, deadly annoyance :P
Kunmal: Tactical fed Klingon, ground specialist, USS Kanewaga
Ka -tet Tier 5 fleet fully completed Starbase and fleet property
You may not have paid the Zen for them, but someone did.
As far as how many premades I do, we've had 3 Panda/Lag interfleet matches tonight alone. And trust me, if we (in a premade) wanted to keep you in a TIF, we could. Not just the Pandas, but any premade with even basic coordination.
Furthermore, you've yet to acknowledge that problem with TIF. Yeah, it's got some counters, but do you at least admit the fact that it is OP?
Im sure you have plenty of program vs program must be sad that the only people that you can find to play against you cheaters is yourselves. you guys using bo double tap with doffs in your privates. And the question wasnt can you hold me in it the question was can you stay 3 k out of my psw and still stay within 5 for the duration ill bet any ammount of ec that you cant.
I think you pretty much know nothing about the abilities you are talking about tbr scramble can all be had at lt level psw and vm can each be had at ltcm. Just about every ship in the game released in the last year has a ltcm uni station. So is it that you cant fit it or dont want to fit it.
I am fully aware that TBR and scramble can be had at lt level. Which is why I also mentioned that Scramble does nothing to help you yourself, and TBR is equally easily countered by the TIF user. But you ignored that. And VM - my point was slow ships. Slow ships are going to find it near-impossible to use it, and VM takes time to proc on Aux, during which the user can dish out a lot of hurt.
That is peoples problem you dont want to fit the counters on your ship not that you cant. What the hell kind of cruiser cant fit an omega a healboat because any dps cruiser i see has omega and there are even cruisers that have universal ltcm to put a shockwave scramble or vm. i know that doesnt fit into your optimal build it takes a spot for something that is better something that you like to use.
I already mentioned how even a cruiser/carrier with LtComm Sci/Uni will not be able to effectively use the sci counters due to lack of maneuverability.
Also, some people use heal cruisers. Sure, lockbox ships have the universals to fit the counters. But what about the Assault/Star Cruiser? Heck, what about the Marauder? Or even the Atrox?The Negh'Var? Are you saying that you can just exclude entire classes of ships from being able to counter an ability?
Well im here to tell you that there are no optimal builds every build can be beat unless of course you do something tricky and make up rules. Rules with no criteria as far as ive seen from the responses in the thread except its op.
Of course every build can be beaten. An optimal build is simply one that can be beaten by the fewest things possible.
So a beam that has a 2.5% chance to proc a debuff is going to help me with inversion im going to time my inversion around a 2.5 percent chance to proc ok.
It's not that you time it around the debuff. It's that when it procs, it makes things much easier. That's the synergy. And believe me, 2.5% proc chance is higher than you think.
That torpedo is useless as **** on a bull except in a very specialized situation and i could think of 10 things id rather have instead.
Personal preference. You're ignoring the potential here.
The console is nice for just about every ship in the game but besides the graviton bonus It doesnt help me much id rather have any other console for my sci.
Again, personal preference. I stick it on in the place of an RCS. Turnrate bonus and extra crit doesn't help?
Target aux is unreliable but does everything have to be a 100% with all these counters a player of your skill level cant find 1 to get away.
I don't have much of a problem with TIF unless it is stacked, or if the UI issues crop up, in which case I can't do much. However, that's because I fly a fast ship. What about newer players using the ships I mentioned earlier? This ability is effectively uncounterable in the queues for them. This ability freezes out new players. Which is why people see it as cheese.
Edit: Oh, and remember TIF boosts your own Boff recharge speed along with your own flight speed when mounted on temporal ships. Makes it even harder to get away.
And the question wasnt can you hold me in it the question was can you stay 3 k out of my psw and still stay within 5 for the duration ill bet any ammount of ec that you cant.
So you're saying you'd like a challenge match, we bring TIF and GPG - you do not.
You bring the counters.
Then we see what happens? Should be easy, since you know all the counters.
I'm sure you'll say no with a list of excuses.
Threads like these are always full of excuses.
Pandas don't use TIF, we don't use GPG.
That doesn't mean we don't have access or own these things.
We specifically do not use them because we know what they can do to an otherwise fun match.
And for the record, not that you will ever be convinced, but I'll say it anyway.
We don't cheat, even though it comforts some people to tell themselves that.
Only the one rule, we bring the TIF and GPG - You do not.
To prove that you can counter it "easily".
I dont play in matches with rules its a point i try and make your only going against 5 random dudes whats the big deal. No rules its a go if you have it and i have it whats the difference. Give me a week or so to get my team together and built and its a go sound good.
The amount of pages in this post, is directly proportional to the OP's stupidity level.
We have virus as math guy, and now me as the algebra guy lol.
We just need Trigonometry Guy for a Super Maths Friends comic.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I dont play in matches with rules its a point i try and make your only going against 5 random dudes whats the big deal. No rules its a go if you have it and i have it whats the difference. Give me a week or so to get my team together and built and its a go sound good.
How are you going to play you dont have that dirty little inversion field and that P2W ship the wells.Or have you been holding out let me guess you bought it used it once felt dirty and then shelved it. I hope you and ulimatum are on the team atleast then i know its there B team.
How are you going to play you dont have that dirty little inversion field and that P2W ship the wells.Or have you been holding out let me guess you bought it used it once felt dirty and then shelved it. I hope you and ulimatum are on the team atleast then i know its there B team.
I'm assuming you meant to quote me and not yourself.
No, I don't have the TIF. I do have a Wells, though I don't use it due to people like yourself claiming that they only reason I'm half decent is because of my OP ship. If you're serious about this match, I'd be more than happy to acquire what's needed.
Furthermore, yeah, I know I'm certainly not the best and that I'm not on the Panda A team. But where do you get off throwing around insults like that, especially against Ulti who really hasn't even said anything?
But fine - well have our "B Team" have a go with you. Would you like to give our A Team(s) a go too?
I dont play in matches with rules its a point i try and make your only going against 5 random dudes whats the big deal.
No, you don't get to change it. I made my offer.
The entire premise of your thread is how easy it is to counter TIF and GPG.
I'm offering you a chance to prove it.
You bring all of the counters, we bring the TIF and GPG.
The reason this is my offer, is because you are not the first person and this is not the first thread to claim that TIF and GPG are easy to counter.
As soon as the chance to prove it is given, to not use TIF and not use GPG - but rather face it and prove the counters are "easy", suddenly the direction of the conversation changes.
I'm assuming you meant to quote me and not yourself.
No, I don't have the TIF. I do have a Wells, though I don't use it due to people like yourself claiming that they only reason I'm half decent is because of my OP ship. If you're serious about this match, I'd be more than happy to acquire what's needed.
Furthermore, yeah, I know I'm certainly not the best and that I'm not on the Panda A team. But where do you get off throwing around insults like that, especially against Ulti who really hasn't even said anything?
But fine - well have our "B Team" have a go with you. Would you like to give our A Team(s) a go too?
yeah praxis, count me in as part of this panda b team.
this guy needs some kind of reality check.
trying to contradict virus on numbers and powers stuff i knew we were all shaking our head at that...
but insulting ultimatum, quite possibly one of the most genuine and knowlegable players in the game.....and you are in the mix too....
too many toes being stepped on for me not to step in somewhere.
The entire premise of your thread is how easy it is to counter TIF and GPG.
I'm offering you a chance to prove it.
You bring all of the counters, we bring the TIF and GPG.
The reason this is my offer, is because you are not the first person and this is not the first thread to claim that TIF and GPG are easy to counter.
As soon as the chance to prove it is given, to not use TIF and not use GPG - but rather face it and prove the counters are "easy", suddenly the direction of the conversation changes.
For example, poorly thought out insults.
So you wont accept a challenge from a pugmade with no rules wow what has pandas turned into.
The entire premise of your thread is how easy it is to counter TIF and GPG.
I'm offering you a chance to prove it.
You bring all of the counters, we bring the TIF and GPG.
The reason this is my offer, is because you are not the first person and this is not the first thread to claim that TIF and GPG are easy to counter.
As soon as the chance to prove it is given, to not use TIF and not use GPG - but rather face it and prove the counters are "easy", suddenly the direction of the conversation changes.
For example, poorly thought out insults.
Owned! show us your counters timejumpers, let's see what can u do vs cheese.
Comments
We get it. You don't like premades and team play.
See, that's the thing - I'm not sure where you get that from. Hrmmm...
Like so many have said, in queues you can use what ever you want. No one is going to report you to the devs. But.. but.. you really need to use thing like TIF or GP with a 5 team pre made against pugs? If you do, then you are doing it wrong.
Look what happened to ground. Ground PVP was always dead, but never like now. Why? Because there are some broken mechanics that pre made use it to just stomp pugs. Even ground lovers do not want to even come close to that now.
I think, that premades, have some sort of responsibility to not abuse broken mechanics, that is why we run our pramde with out GB and TIF (and some other broken stuff). There are some lines.. you just dont spam 5 GB and TIF in to pugs that dont know even how to drive their ships.
Like I said, there are not rules in queues, but the way you play speacks for your self. In pre made matches, like tournaments or fleet duels, well, the rules are what they made.
Yesterday (I think it was you) your fleet want it to make a premade duel vs our fleet, I told you fine, but we play with rules. You refuse it, end of story.
Like I told you 10000 times, I dont want fleet drama.. I dont like them, this is a game, we play.. nothing more.. we have too mach drama with cryptic to even waste time on fleets vs fleets.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
That is your main issue.
Its easy to say load a sci team... when you never play with out 4 friends with you. Its not hard for a premade to counter 1-2 tif fields... or a couple Gravity Pulses. Or pretty much any of the other cheese that is in the game.
It is very easy to counter them when 2 of your friends have dual Sci team setups... with the team having enough tac team to cover those that are loading sci teams... ect ect.
The issue is running that junk against pugs in the ques... you can't expect auto teamed players to have optimal team counter setups... which is why running things like Grvaity pulse (that hits everyone on the team) is seen as TRIBBLE play by most people. If a few people on that auto team in fact do have conuters loaded they are going to use them on themselves 9 times out of 10 instead of bailing out the guy on there team getting focused on by the premade.
Honestly though I could care less... keep running that type of junk in the ques all you like... you simply make Tyler Durden stronger. lol
I know I say it here more then play in game these days... but join [Tyler Durden] Leave your fleets and teams at the door... mix the matches up and have a good time. What I find very telling about TD matches in general is that after a few rounds most people end up taking the types of things people are talking about here off there ships... we balance the teams out so you get an equal serving, almost always cures the BS builds after a couple rounds.
I think you pretty much know nothing about the abilities you are talking about tbr scramble can all be had at lt level psw and vm can each be had at ltcm. Just about every ship in the game released in the last year has a ltcm uni station. So is it that you cant fit it or dont want to fit it.
That is peoples problem you dont want to fit the counters on your ship not that you cant. What the hell kind of cruiser cant fit an omega a healboat because any dps cruiser i see has omega and there are even cruisers that have universal ltcm to put a shockwave scramble or vm. i know that doesnt fit into your optimal build it takes a spot for something that is better something that you like to use.
Well im here to tell you that there are no optimal builds every build can be beat unless of course you do something tricky and make up rules. Rules with no criteria as far as ive seen from the responses in the thread except its op.
Only 2 responses fom 2 people on there opinions on why they think with actual data its op the rest are because you suck if you use it its banned in the tournament. I think the number 1 critera for people calling something broke is because they lost to it. The funny thing is its like some people just give up when they get hit with it maybe thats why you died when you were inversioned because you sure the hell didnt die from the inversion that does 0 dammage mind you. Difficult to come buy you cant grind a mill ec for a console thats sad.
So a beam that has a 2.5% chance to proc a debuff is going to help me with inversion im going to time my inversion around a 2.5 percent chance to proc ok.
That torpedo is useless as **** on a bull except in a very specialized situation and i could think of 10 things id rather have instead.
The console is nice for just about every ship in the game but besides the graviton bonus It doesnt help me much id rather have any other console for my sci.
Target aux is unreliable but does everything have to be a 100% with all these counters a player of your skill level cant find 1 to get away.
Thank you sir for your productive post as you will see a sane arguement will get a sane response. I would like to say something about what the public decides on what is to be used statement. For every person that says grav pulse or inversion is op i can find the same ammount of people that say its not if not more.
So it is unfair for anyone to say there is a concensus on anything there is not. Ill bring up some recent things that are broken the black hole console web mines go back a little bit to romulan embassy ground doffs boarding party 11 minute cooldowns VOLDERMORT double shields sub nuke doffs all these exploits were game breaking and broken not working as intended.
They were all fixed some faster then others some with much less crying and complaining on the forums. There has been more crying on these forums about grav pulse and inversion then any of these others. So why hasnt cryptic fixed them everything else game breaking and broken is fixed. Ill tell you why because there not game breaking or broken they work as intended if not they would be fixed.
Inversion will not win a match for you grav pulse will not win a match for you. It will help win a match for you but i think every ability we pick for our ship we pick to help us win if not your just restricting the game play experience.
Something to prove my point sad pandas best fleet in the game ive never seen a video or heard them being beat by inversion or grav pulse so if its so op why arent they getting stomped by lesser premades that use it. The answer is its not op its not an i win button its just annoying thats all.
Your point about everyone uses them is a great point everyone uses alot of things that are powerful wich brings me to bo double tap with the 35% bleedthrough doffs. ewp wich we all know has broken mechanics that go with it from not having hazards reliable clear it to visual problems why are these allowed and not being raged about by these same people. ill tell you why look at the videos from the no bs tourney they are all using it. Does that make sense?
The point of a tourney having rules by all means make as many as you want but dont use them as a standard in premade and pug matches. Dont call people noobs and cowards because they wont follow your rules. Its funny people on here think that the person who uses inversion is worse then the person who belittle berates calls names that cant be written here thats whats funny.
So i believe your in bootcamp and ive seen others from bootcamp in this thread claim that he will name and shame anyone in public chat for using an ability he doesnt like is that what is being taught at bootcamp name and shame the P2WERS. I would hope not i dont think cryptic would sponsor something that named and shamed its customers in public forums for buying and using something they sold them what do you think. The pvp community is much larger then the few that post on these forums and yap all day in opvp. So dont think the ones with the biggest mouths speak for everyone escpecially not the majority.Should these few have more say so then others ?
I havent put a dime into this game since free to play so how did i get this stuff if you need cash for it go grind some dillithium what else do you have to do the ques are dead how many premade matches a night do you do? So i guess my P2wW is no different then your grind to win reputation that im sure you use. I would love for you to in a premade keep me 3k away but no more then 5k away using inversion it wont happen so yes you will either get shockwaved or run out of 5 k either way inversion countered.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
You may not have paid the Zen for them, but someone did.
As far as how many premades I do, we've had 3 Panda/Lag interfleet matches tonight alone. And trust me, if we (in a premade) wanted to keep you in a TIF, we could. Not just the Pandas, but any premade with even basic coordination.
Furthermore, you've yet to acknowledge that problem with TIF. Yeah, it's got some counters, but do you at least admit the fact that it is OP?
I don't like cheese on sausage or eggs. I don't do cheese for breakfast. Then again, the ex put grape jelly on her sausage biscuits. I always found that odd. But grape jelly is off-topic, and I don't want to derail the thread by talking about various fruit preserves when it's about various dairy products.
this is an off-topic since the beggining, fell free to post whatever you want :cool:
p.d: i think i don't like cheese mostly cause i'm lactose intolerant
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Traits - Accurate, Astrophysicist, Conservation of Energy, Elusive, Infiltrator, Photonic Capacitor, Reman, Singularity Specialist, Techie
Reputation
New Rom - Precision, Sensor Targeting Assault, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
Nukara - Fortified Hull, Auxiliary Power Config - Offense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Amplifier
HY1, TS2, DPB2, APO3
TT1
ET1, AtS1
PH1, TSS2, VM1
HE1, HE2
(5x Rom Sub/Sup Op)
DOFFs - 2x PWO(Torp), PWO(Torp+Sing), SE(VM+), SE(VMSpread)
Deflector - KHG Mk XII
Impulse - Aegis
Shields - KHG Mk XII
Core - Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Singularity Mk XII [SingA][Jump][SCap][AMP][SSR]
Weapons
Fore - Omega Torp, Subspace Torp, 2x Bio-Molecular Torp Mk XI
Aft - Hyper Torp, Tricobalt Torp Mk XII [Acc]x3, Web Mines
Consoles
Tac - 3x Warhead Mk XII, Bioneural Infusion
Eng - Tachyo, Borg, Enhanced Neut Mk XII [+HullRep]
Sci - Singularity Stabilizer, Plasma Destabilizer, Zero-Point
Devices - SFM, Eng Batt
Other - Nimbus Pirate Distress Call
Sometimes I think of getting all those broken stuff, get in the Q and just use them against those that abuse those object to stomp pug group, you know keep it in inventory just in case................
E'Mc2 : Science Reman torp T'Varo, deadly annoyance :P
Kunmal: Tactical fed Klingon, ground specialist, USS Kanewaga
Ka -tet Tier 5 fleet fully completed Starbase and fleet property
Im sure you have plenty of program vs program must be sad that the only people that you can find to play against you cheaters is yourselves. you guys using bo double tap with doffs in your privates. And the question wasnt can you hold me in it the question was can you stay 3 k out of my psw and still stay within 5 for the duration ill bet any ammount of ec that you cant.
I am fully aware that TBR and scramble can be had at lt level. Which is why I also mentioned that Scramble does nothing to help you yourself, and TBR is equally easily countered by the TIF user. But you ignored that. And VM - my point was slow ships. Slow ships are going to find it near-impossible to use it, and VM takes time to proc on Aux, during which the user can dish out a lot of hurt.
I already mentioned how even a cruiser/carrier with LtComm Sci/Uni will not be able to effectively use the sci counters due to lack of maneuverability.
Also, some people use heal cruisers. Sure, lockbox ships have the universals to fit the counters. But what about the Assault/Star Cruiser? Heck, what about the Marauder? Or even the Atrox?The Negh'Var? Are you saying that you can just exclude entire classes of ships from being able to counter an ability?
Of course every build can be beaten. An optimal build is simply one that can be beaten by the fewest things possible.
It's not that you time it around the debuff. It's that when it procs, it makes things much easier. That's the synergy. And believe me, 2.5% proc chance is higher than you think.
Personal preference. You're ignoring the potential here.
Again, personal preference. I stick it on in the place of an RCS. Turnrate bonus and extra crit doesn't help?
I don't have much of a problem with TIF unless it is stacked, or if the UI issues crop up, in which case I can't do much. However, that's because I fly a fast ship. What about newer players using the ships I mentioned earlier? This ability is effectively uncounterable in the queues for them. This ability freezes out new players. Which is why people see it as cheese.
Edit: Oh, and remember TIF boosts your own Boff recharge speed along with your own flight speed when mounted on temporal ships. Makes it even harder to get away.
So you're saying you'd like a challenge match, we bring TIF and GPG - you do not.
You bring the counters.
Then we see what happens? Should be easy, since you know all the counters.
I'm sure you'll say no with a list of excuses.
Threads like these are always full of excuses.
Pandas don't use TIF, we don't use GPG.
That doesn't mean we don't have access or own these things.
We specifically do not use them because we know what they can do to an otherwise fun match.
And for the record, not that you will ever be convinced, but I'll say it anyway.
We don't cheat, even though it comforts some people to tell themselves that.
The amount of pages in this post, is directly proportional to the OP's stupidity level.
We have virus as math guy, and now me as the algebra guy lol.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
If this is a no rules match im all for it im sure i could find 4 guys. So no rules panda match anything goes correct?
Only the one rule, we bring the TIF and GPG - You do not.
To prove that you can counter it "easily".
Oh yes please.
I dont play in matches with rules its a point i try and make your only going against 5 random dudes whats the big deal. No rules its a go if you have it and i have it whats the difference. Give me a week or so to get my team together and built and its a go sound good.
We just need Trigonometry Guy for a Super Maths Friends comic.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
How are you going to play you dont have that dirty little inversion field and that P2W ship the wells.Or have you been holding out let me guess you bought it used it once felt dirty and then shelved it. I hope you and ulimatum are on the team atleast then i know its there B team.
I'm assuming you meant to quote me and not yourself.
No, I don't have the TIF. I do have a Wells, though I don't use it due to people like yourself claiming that they only reason I'm half decent is because of my OP ship. If you're serious about this match, I'd be more than happy to acquire what's needed.
Furthermore, yeah, I know I'm certainly not the best and that I'm not on the Panda A team. But where do you get off throwing around insults like that, especially against Ulti who really hasn't even said anything?
But fine - well have our "B Team" have a go with you. Would you like to give our A Team(s) a go too?
No, you don't get to change it. I made my offer.
The entire premise of your thread is how easy it is to counter TIF and GPG.
I'm offering you a chance to prove it.
You bring all of the counters, we bring the TIF and GPG.
The reason this is my offer, is because you are not the first person and this is not the first thread to claim that TIF and GPG are easy to counter.
As soon as the chance to prove it is given, to not use TIF and not use GPG - but rather face it and prove the counters are "easy", suddenly the direction of the conversation changes.
For example, poorly thought out insults.
yeah praxis, count me in as part of this panda b team.
this guy needs some kind of reality check.
trying to contradict virus on numbers and powers stuff i knew we were all shaking our head at that...
but insulting ultimatum, quite possibly one of the most genuine and knowlegable players in the game.....and you are in the mix too....
too many toes being stepped on for me not to step in somewhere.
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
So you wont accept a challenge from a pugmade with no rules wow what has pandas turned into.
Owned! show us your counters timejumpers, let's see what can u do vs cheese.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)