Troll?
I merely made an observation. It is people like you who are trolls, sitting in forums and jumping on anyone's post that does not please you. And the reason why post PvE players does not wish to enter PvP. Well unlike you I have things to do in real life. You can continue to sit here and troll on, or decide to get a real life.
Cheers.
How wonderful, someone else who needs to resorts to the "I have a life!" line. Go on flexing that e-peen.
I'm sorry if you think I'm the thing stopping you from entering PvP, but I'm in fact trying to make PvP more fair for everyone (elimination of P2W, less power creep) so that it's easier to get into it.
Really what counters that i listed dont work in practice. again no explanation just because i said so TRIBBLE.
PSW - What if they've got Aux to ID or Omega running? Or, since they've got a massive movement advantage over you, they keep outside the 3KM range? It's far easier for them to stay out of it than for you to get into it.
AMS - Use cheese to counter more cheese?
Evasives - They can move and make sure that you're in it easier than you can move out.
Omega - Yup, that's doing me a ton of good on my Sci ships.
So on and so forth. Yes, there are counters that you can land (VM, etc) and those work. However, the gripe with TIF stems from what it does. It's a massive AoE debuff that gives your team a MASSIVE advantage for no cost other than $$$. Not like you've got to coordinate Alpha strikes/heals/debuffs, you just pop this and your team has a huge advantage.
Umm if you notice i never mentioned emp in the not broken category A2B EMP is actually broken its timer is reduced by A2B and its not supposed to great criteria for an ability to be considered broken. Unlike inversion grav pulse etc. wich work excactly as the description says.My fleet is the federal reserve not TRIBBLE so get it straight. I didnt spam you with anything i wasnt in the match. and from what i heard on ts was 2 bug ships 2 cruisers and 1 sci ship the only P2W on the team that wasnt a ship was grav pulse on 1 ship not 5 50 second ones like you would like to make people believe. I think its common knowledge that the rules for the no bs tourney were made by a member of the pandas. And yes they were banned from the tourney because people dont like to play against 3rd party programs.
Never heard of the Federal Reserve, up for a match some time?
The problem with the aspect of cheating is that once the idea takes root you can point it at anyone and smear them. People who know me know my gaming limits, didn't stop several SOB members calling me a hacker. I rejoiced! I asked for some clarification or proof and was just cried and insulted at.
The community is always watchful for any play that can't be explained via existing mechanics. If you think you've got some proof, please share it. Mud-slinging carries little weight.
It's funny. I was told several times that the vast majority of fleets that took part in No BS #3 made it clear they were unwilling to fight Pandas. Yet in No BS #4 I as the organiser didn't receive a SINGLE complain or worry from other fleets. Not a single one. It just goes to show that a few individuals in the community are quite happy to set fire to any event they don't like the look of...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
to be fair tif is very very VERY hard to counter with shockwave if the TIF pilot knows what hes doing.
shockwave torp is much better imo.
Oh so everything should be easy i get it if it is hard and takes thought and prevents you from flying freely with no restrictions it should be banned. I feel like im in the pve forum please please make it easy. Is it easy to counter 2 alpha snb attacks is it easy to counter a team with multiple extends i could go on and on. The point is it has multiple counters and people instead of using those counters would rather cry and ban it. So answer me this mai is it supposed to be easy is everyone supposed to run the same build so that you can easily setup and counter it.If you want easy join the no bs tourney. And most of the people i know dont join the bs tourney because of the people involved not the rules get it straight. 90% of the fleets that joined are not even fleets just make shift teams of friends or panda alt characters while there are a few named fleets in it there are far more fleets that didnt join. Some because of the bs rules that they make to fit there play style. And some for the BS people that run them look at the forum posts you will understand so wich is a bigger problem with pvp the consoles or the trolls that cry for hours and cause wars between fleets because they got hit buy grav pulse.
Just another antagonistic troll thread. Get people to speak their minds then attack them for doing so and make out your all innocent. You can tell school is about to go back cant you !
Never heard of the Federal Reserve, up for a match some time?
The problem with the aspect of cheating is that once the idea takes root you can point it at anyone and smear them. People who know me know my gaming limits, didn't stop several SOB members calling me a hacker. I rejoiced! I asked for some clarification or proof and was just cried and insulted at.
The community is always watchful for any play that can't be explained via existing mechanics. If you think you've got some proof, please share it. Mud-slinging carries little weight.
Since we are naming fleets with no moderation lag industries never heard of you ive seen you in here running your mouth alot but never have i been on a team that has lost to your fleet. I thought you were pveers oh wait i forgot now you have pixel pandas in your fleet so i guess that makes you good.
Umm if you notice i never mentioned emp in the not broken category A2B EMP is actually broken its timer is reduced by A2B and its not supposed to great criteria for an ability to be considered broken. Unlike inversion grav pulse etc. wich work excactly as the description says.My fleet is the federal reserve not TRIBBLE so get it straight. I didnt spam you with anything i wasnt in the match. and from what i heard on ts was 2 bug ships 2 cruisers and 1 sci ship the only P2W on the team that wasnt a ship was grav pulse on 1 ship not 5 50 second ones like you would like to make people believe. I think its common knowledge that the rules for the no bs tourney were made by a member of the pandas. And yes they were banned from the tourney because people dont like to play against 3rd party programs.
the match where i was using the dkora was a 1vs1 that some SOB challenge me cause i called them noobs for using grav pulse in previuos premade vs random pugs match (in that one i was using my jem'hadar with a non-cheese build, as always). Try to ask about the facts before making rage post.
Not point in continue posting here, u already got your answers, if u use TRIBBLE, don't cry when ppl talks bad about you/your fleet.
Since we are naming fleets with no moderation lag industries never heard of you ive seen you in here running your mouth alot but never have i been on a team that has lost to your fleet. I thought you were pveers oh wait i forgot now you have pixel pandas in your fleet so i guess that makes you good.
Yep, just a QQer here, he's not making valid arguments, he's just crying for the sake of crying. Next thread please!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Counters to temporal inversion field for the people who are too lazy to do the work yourself.
Let a noob educate you awesomely skilled auto hotkey users.
let me start off by saying no inversion field cant be countered by a 3rd party program it actually is the ability that screws it up the most wich is why the rule makers hate it. Here is a description of the ability first - 200% flight speed -150% turn rate - 150% power recharge speed.
counter #1 photonic shock wave i know its hard to use with a 3k range but if your within 5 you should be able to close 2k distance.
counter #2 photonic shockwave torpedo now you only need to be within 10k range
counter #3 scramble sensors this can be used from 10 k also.
counter #4 antimatter spread you need to be closer but still works.
Now before i go into these next counters i think it should be noted that the biggest weakness inversion has is a 5k range. The movement debuff can be countered by abilities that increase speed turn and movement. And something else you guys obviously dont know is if you fly out of 5 k not only does it remove the movement debuff key word debuff not disable inversion in no way disables your engines.
So counter number 5 tractor beam repulsors Have your sci repulsor out the evil person using inversion that way the other 4 noobs who cant seem to escape the 5 k range arent affected by it.
counter number 5 evasive maneuvers if you cant get out of 5k range with eveasive you are a noob.
counter 6 omega helps counter the movement and turn debuff wich again allows you to get out of 5k.
impulse capcitance cell the pay to win console that 1 poster likes to use again brings you out of 5k range.
epte again will increase your speed to get out of 5 k range.
i think you get my point on getting out of 5k range and any ability that will help you do that is a counter.
next point is the power speed recharge debuff that also has a 5 k range and does not add the full amount of the timer increase if you are not within 5k.The timer debuff only adds when you are in inversion field so you only lose a few seconds on cooldowns if you move 5k away i bet you werent told that by the people complaining.
Now onto the next set of counters that i bet alot of you didnt know is that disableing auxillary also disables inversion.
counter number 7 viral matrix disables aux
counter 8 target auxillary subsystems .
there are other things that also disable aux any of them work.
there are other detailed team strategies that will counter inversion also if you want more detail let me knowill be glad to post them for the lazy noobs who only listen to what they are told.
So i have made my case as why the cost of inversion 2 weapons slots 1 fore weapon slot at that and a console and the limits to inversion are quite ballancedwith numerous counters. And lets not forget the 3 minute cooldown.
So for giving up 2 weapons for 2 subpar weapons and a console slot i should get what jam sensors. the ability should be powerful if you can get people caught in it.
Let me go ahead and get out of the way the responses to these counters because ive already heard it word for word from all you guys wich is why i know you just repeat what your told like good little boys.
They will say ohh 5 people using it is op i agree 100% but no more op then stacking 5 of anything .
Next they will say how can you fly out of it when your in tractor viraled and gassed? Well i say this how do you get out of anything when your tractored viraled and gassed.
They will say it takes no skill to push the button. Well it takes skill and timing to put that player in a position to not get out of the inversion. No you dont just hit the button and ships freeze and then blow up i wish it was that simple.
They will say it has no counter. Ive proved that wrong it has more counters then 95% of the abilities ingame.
Really what counters that i listed dont work in practice. again no explanation just because i said so TRIBBLE.
Here's your explanation.
Well, let's analyse, shall we?
PSW, Scramble, TBR and VM are high-level science abilities. Not exactly easy to mount.
Nadeon Detonator, AMS, Impulse Cap - Consoles you have to pay for if you're fed. Not easy to obtain either.
APO - high-level tactical. Not much of an issue for escorts, but other ships have trouble.
Target Aux - Unreliable. Rarely actually causes shutdown.
Also, make up your mind on whether we're talking about team vs team or pug vs pug tactics. Team vs team - team strategies can counter a few, but not a stack. Pug vs pug - well, maybe. But let's analyse further, yes?
I shall assume pug vs pug.
Alright, considering the counters, escorts may use APO to get away. Science ships have access to the counters you mentioned (although Scramble is not a true counter - it only turns the ability into a 2-way thing)
But what about cruisers? Most don't have access to the ones mentioned. And most of them don't have the speed to get away, even with EPTE engaged. And how about Evasive? Well, it's the only one now. The canny player will wait until the opponent has used up EM to pop the ability. Besides that, your analysis is flawed in that the TIF user can and will pursue the enemy ship. The Temporal ships are quite fast, and so can easily catch up to most other ships. Running away isn't so easy when the other player can just follow you.
Furthermore, the ability has the potential to affect the entire enemy team. Does this hence mean that it is alright that the entire enemy team has to drop everything and run away, just because of one ability use?
Besides that, your analysis of the cost-of-use is faulty. 2 weapon slots and a console - that's correct. But the synergy is extremely high! Console - boosts turnrate, grav gens (IIRC), and crits. Boosts your maneuverability and your slows, making it easier to land the TIF. I use the console on every one of my ships. The Chroniton bank - again, procs to slow the target, making it easier to land TIF. Not to mention the accuracy is not truly relevant to cruisers, which are certainly losing out, as seen in previous paragraphs. TIF also benefits the bank, as slows make it more likely to hit. Temporal Disruption Device? Again, slow synergy - and if you slow the other person with TIF, even more likely to hit - or just drop it point-blank.
So, the weapons may be junk on their own, but put together, they synergise very well to create a sum much greater than the parts.
Throughout this analysis, you can see that fast ships and most high-level maneuverable science will be able to counter. However, cruisers are left in the dust. In fact, any slow ship, even a science one, will be hard-pressed to counter as VM requires forward arc, getting into 3k range of a moving target is near-impossible on a slow ship (PSW), and Scramble doesn't help. TBR is a possibility, but......other person pops PH/APO or any of the other myriad counters to that, and they're home free.
The meta is already badly skewed towards maneuverable ships. We don't need an ability that
a) results in huge disadvantage if not countered
b) results in further skewing towards fast ships
c) requires little true cost to use
d) requires the use of paid-for consoles in order to counter if in a slow ship
e) reduces the ability of the target to activate counters (cooldowns)
f) can affect multiple targets
I haven't even mentioned the desync issue some users have (fixed for some, but still very much present) and the UI lag on pushing buttons that results (personal experience).
And this is why TIF is frowned upon. On the surface, they may seem to have plenty of counters, but on in-depth analysis, it's not so easy.
Oh, and about that bottish stuff? Knock it off. It's old, and it's never been proven.
Hmm....wonder if this thread will be gone by the time I wake up. Oh well.
Is really funny see you trying to justify the use of grav pulse and TIF when EVERYBODY here knows that they are way out of line, and that is the reason why they are banned in tournamnets...
You say, "EVERYBODY here knows"? If anything, the amount of discussion I've seen on the topic (in this, and other threads) says the exact opposite is true. Please speak for yourself and not the rest of the community.
90% of the replys here are telling you the same, maybe some of them are more polite than others, but in the end is the same. If u want to use cheese, use it, but don't come and cry here when ppl talks bad about your fleet, that is the price you pay.
From experience, it's the worst pvpers that need to resort to poor sportsmanship, feeling the need to name and shame other players/fleets, and rage quitting from pvp matches. The crying really says more about the QQ-er than the QQ-ee.
Let me just explain a few simple things before I go back to munching on my popcorn.
All of this rage QQ about op consoles, p2w and cheese is a load of TRIBBLE. I've been here since launch and believe me, I've heard it all. You may think you've found something new or interesting to flame about in zone or here on these forums but trust me... it's all old hat and regurgitation. And the sad fact is that it's all disingenuous. There is only one common denominator behind all this QQ - someone lost. And lost badly.
There are basically two types of QQers, as the OP alluded. There are the sheeple who just blindly repeat something they heard on the forums or in some ingame channel. Then there are the ones who have given up on actual PvP and resort to childish name calling. Their words are the only weapon they have left yet, appropriately, are just as ineffective as their attempts at PvP. It's no coincidence that these are the same exact ones who beam out of matches while hiding behind some false justification of taking the high road. We all learned this lesson on the schoolyard playground: there is nothing more childish than "taking your ball and going home." That's not how it works in a competitive environment such as PvP. That's also not how real life works. What would you think if the Tampa Bay Rays left the field in the first inning against the Yankees, crying about the size of their payroll?
Real PvPers learn and adapt. Real PvPers know the state of the game... which is exactly the same state of any other MMORPG. There will always be change. There will always be nerfs, buffs, rebalancing, new skills and new items. Real PvPers know they cannot dictate how someone else plays. That would be insane. Instead, real PvPers prepare themselves as best they can for any situation. Real PvPers invest time understanding the game and its mechanics.
And lastly... for emphasis, these two points deserve their own lines:
Real PvPers play as a team. That is how this game is designed.
Real PvPers don't go into a match without sci team.
The bottom line, gentlemen, are these wise words. Learn them. Love them. Live them:
Yep, just a QQer here, he's not making valid arguments, he's just crying for the sake of crying. Next thread please!
What was your valid arguement for why inversion is op i must have missed that. I explained in detail why its not. all i hear from you guys is because i said it therefore its true but i know you lack the knowledge of the game to come up with a counter arguement. Other then because i said so. Or that fleet your not even in is a cheese factory wehat makes it op the aoe hmm ban all aoe skills the slow there are much worse slow effects in the game the timer recharge speed that you can eliminate by moving. what is the criteria the cost 2 weapons slots and a console isnt giving up enough your crazy or is it because daddy said dont use it so i dont.
How wonderful, someone else who needs to resorts to the "I have a life!" line. Go on flexing that e-peen.
I'm sorry if you think I'm the thing stopping you from entering PvP, but I'm in fact trying to make PvP more fair for everyone (elimination of P2W, less power creep) so that it's easier to get into it.
PSW - What if they've got Aux to ID or Omega running? Or, since they've got a massive movement advantage over you, they keep outside the 3KM range? It's far easier for them to stay out of it than for you to get into it.
AMS - Use cheese to counter more cheese?
Evasives - They can move and make sure that you're in it easier than you can move out.
Omega - Yup, that's doing me a ton of good on my Sci ships.
So on and so forth. Yes, there are counters that you can land (VM, etc) and those work. However, the gripe with TIF stems from what it does. It's a massive AoE debuff that gives your team a MASSIVE advantage for no cost other than $$$. Not like you've got to coordinate Alpha strikes/heals/debuffs, you just pop this and your team has a huge advantage.
Sure there are counters to every counter wich is where the fun of the chess match starts you know thought.
So you use evasive the guy chases you leaving the other 4 players out of 5k range good thinking.
so you go to shockwave the guy and and he runs away staying between 4 and 5 k away i doubght it if he runs cool hes out of 5k. If he tries to stay within exactly 4 to 5 k without coming closer and you cant close that distance thats your problem but very hard to do i think to do this would take much skill on the person using inversions part.
Omega wells cant carry omega oh wait that doesnt fit your cookie cutter build sorry
And saying that what it does is instant victory is a bit of an overstatement.
i guess you want easy also. So if one counter doesnt work there are many more that would work its situational just like everything else in the game.
Real PvPers play as a team. That is how this game is designed.
Just wanted to point out, that uh - actually, it's not. Not in the manner in which people often point to it - it's simply not the case.
When you queue...what's the basic option/first option? Just to queue as an individual and be placed on a team, right? There's an additional option to queue as a team, right?
It's not a case of there being an option to join individually if you don't have a team, it's a case of there being an option to join as a team if you have one.
That's quite a distinction...something that's oft overlooked.
Whether you're in a PUG, PUGmade/Trade PUG, or a Premade...you're still on a team. So yes, the game was designed around that...the Premade stuff...is optional - not inherent to the design. If anything, the game massively shows that not enough consideration was given to design efforts to handle Premade teams.
Real PvPers don't go into a match without sci team.
Probably could have touched upon this with the above, but I wanted to focus on the design element that was brought up...but uh, your definition of a Real PvPer doesn't mean squat to me. You're saying a Real PvPer is ABC...doesn't mean diddly. You might as well be saying that a Real Car has ABC in a parking lot full of Cars while claiming none of the Cars are Cars.
Which is why I had to comment on that line...I mean, I had to - it was actually going to be how I started off my reply here, but I decided to end with it instead.
While...there is little doubt that QQ does arise, generally speaking or perhaps just imho - the term QQ is most often used by those that are actually doing the QQ than those they've accused of QQ. It's along the lines of...I don't really know how to reply to something somebody said that would affect my style of play and what I'm doing, I can't think of anything to actually argue against what they're saying, and I don't want to appear as if I can't play without the stuff - here, let me just say that they're QQin' and everybody will get a laugh, it will shift the focus from what I'm doing...yeah, I see it as along those lines.
I'm not sure I've seen it used in another manner than that in over a decade...The QQ is dead, all hail the QQ. It's a trip. No really. It's a trip.
So uh, yeah - thanks for the chuckle. Simple chuckle, no soda on the keyboard - it was funny, but not that funny. But uh, yeah - thanks again.
Sure there are counters to every counter wich is where the fun of the chess match starts you know thought.
So you use evasive the guy chases you leaving the other 4 players out of 5k range good thinking.
so you go to shockwave the guy and and he runs away staying between 4 and 5 k away i doubght it if he runs cool hes out of 5k. If he tries to stay within exactly 4 to 5 k without coming closer and you cant close that distance thats your problem but very hard to do i think to do this would take much skill on the person using inversions part.
Omega wells cant carry omega oh wait that doesnt fit your cookie cutter build sorry
And saying that what it does is instant victory is a bit of an overstatement.
i guess you want easy also. So if one counter doesnt work there are many more that would work its situational just like everything else in the game.
Oh dear.
Ok. So there are more than a few ways to keep you >3KM away. Tractor Beam, TB Mines, Danubes, VM, Target: Engines, manually piloting since it's stupidly easy due to the fact that your target is slow as molasses, etc.
Now, note that I said that Scis can't carry Omega. I didn't say anything about a Wells, because I don't fly one... What about Nebulas? fRSV? If you're rolling with a LtC Tac on your Wells or Vesta, you've got a highly specialized build or you're gimping yourself on the Sci side just to be able to protect yourself against movement debuffs. If you've flown against me, you know that I run anything but a cookie cutter build.
I also didn't say that it's instant win. I said that it's an advantage. There's no doubt that it provides your team a huge advantage. Moreso that any other ability or console in the whole game.
You haven't addressed my other point at all - yeah, there are counters. But that doesn't change the fact that it affects a massive area with an immensely powerful debuff, with relatively difficult counters, with no other AoEs coming close to being as powerful. And the only way to obtain it is buying large amounts, hence P2W.
Please point out another ability that's half as powerful/potent as this one.
You are free to run what you want in public queues, but other people are free to single you out for repeated double tap alphas and also can equip all of their cheese and make you the sole target of it. Don't complain when that happens.
Just wanted to point out, that uh - actually, it's not. Not in the manner in which people often point to it - it's simply not the case.
When you queue...what's the basic option/first option? Just to queue as an individual and be placed on a team, right? There's an additional option to queue as a team, right?
It's not a case of there being an option to join individually if you don't have a team, it's a case of there being an option to join as a team if you have one.
That's quite a distinction...something that's oft overlooked.
Excellent point!
You know, this game also allows you to queue up for pvp in a Tier 1 ship. When you start playing, what's the basic/first option? Just to stay in your first ship, with the starter boffs, and basic white weapons and no consoles? But there's an additional option to switch/upgrade your ship, right?
That's also quite a distinction... something that's oft overlooked.
You know, this game also allows you to queue up for pvp in a Tier 1 ship. When you start playing, what's the basic/first option? Just to stay in your first ship, with the starter boffs, and basic white weapons and no consoles? But there's an additional option to switch/upgrade your ship, right?
Excellent point!
Obviously the design behind STO PvP is premised on PUGs flying T1 ships.
First and foremost I would like to thank you for sharing your opinion in connection with PvP. This is exactly what makes the community forward. However not in this arguing tonality.
I truly do not understand what rules you are speak of.
Generally in PvP there is no such rules you've written down. Nevertheless the public jugdes those players who uses only these (called) "chesse" or "broken" consoles or abilities. Because the public jugdes, sad, but they do. However there are who are interested in the public's opinion. This is why because they think these things must not be used in PvP, like as this new elachi console or I should say "Click and dead" console (when it first came out).
But back to the point: if you speak about tournaments' rules, you are wrong. Why? Because if someone undertakes a task like organising a whole tournament, co-ordinating the matches, creating score system etc., then that is obvious that he/she/they will make rules to have fair matches. Otherwise like Team A would have used a lot of these "cheese" and Team B would have not used at all, then the only result from the match will be an argument. Also if rules are not clarified.
With rules they secure that nobody can generate unnecessary and/or irrelevant arguments. (Another example, if you lend someone a certain amount of money, I guess, you think that you will decide when it must be given back, etc. this is also a rule, and you were the "organiser", you were who gave the money. Only here they give their free-time to make a good evening for the community by playing in equal matches.)
This must be followed, not jugded. If you are not pleased with the rules they made, you do not have to participate in, but you are also able to create your own tournament, with your own rules or without rules.
Let's jump to another topic: you speak about abilities and consoles, and other content of STO can be used in PvP. You are right, everything that can be obtained in-game, can be used as well. But the problem with that, that most of the players are only using these stuffs, this is what makes them be called spammers, because the enemy only sees, grav pulse used, then again and again, at the same time with scramble sensors (with the DOFF) are just flying all the time, then 4-5 subnucs, 4-5 inversion fields, new elachi consoles, AMS's... This is the problem, that without these they cannot win. With these tournaments, called "No BS" they are showing with out these (within fair circumstances) there can be also winner, second, third etc., and unfortunately lasts as well.
However this is what shows standards, not the general queues in these times. Sad but true.
See, I didn't expect fireworks. Sure, almost everything he's posted has been a complaint about one thing or the other - it's a curious post history...a little schizoid...but hey, aren't we all?
Honestly, I expected most folks to ignore it - it's been done to death in countless threads. Sure, it's kind of entertaining until the mods shut the threads down..but it's gotten a little old, no?
Running some of these op items in a coordinated fashion in a team is one thing, but a lot of people just Q up solo. They aren't likely trying to make the most op setup imaginable, they do what seems fun to them. To a lot of players having little pets flying around spewing warp plasma is entertaining, and they saved up a lot fleet marks etc to afford them. So they enter a pvp match with their fancy stuff... and get called a noob spammer... and we never see them in a pvp match ever again.
I'm inclined to think people are kind of confusing their premade vs premade team environment , with the public Q environment. Yes if you run some of these items in a coordinated fashion it can get ridiculous kinda quick. But that is not the aim of most of the people that are using them. I mean how much do they really want to win if they entered the Q solo, or with only one other person? Would be best to think before accusing them of being p2w noobs, naming and shaming, etc. imho.
Running some of these op items in a coordinated fashion in a team is one thing, but a lot of people just Q up solo. They aren't likely trying to make the most op setup imaginable, they do what seems fun to them. To a lot of players having little pets flying around spewing warp plasma is entertaining, and they saved up a lot fleet marks etc to afford them. So they enter a pvp match with their fancy stuff... and get called a noob spammer... and we never see them in a pvp match ever again.
I'm inclined to think people are kind of confusing their premade vs premade team environment , with the public Q environment. Yes if you run some of these items in a coordinated fashion it can get ridiculous kinda quick. But that is not the aim of most of the people that are using them. I mean how much do they really want to win if they entered the Q solo, or with only one other person? Would be best to think before accusing them of being p2w noobs, naming and shaming, etc. imho.
It's basic human psychology, my friend. As I've already mentioned, it has nothing to do with consoles, p2w, etc. The fact is that people rarely respond well to getting their asses handed to them. That's the bottom line.
You did, however, touch upon the one root complaint that every one of these threads devolves into - premades. For most of the forum warriors here, this is what they really dislike. They advocate for a system where team play is marginalized and the entire game is dumbed down to serve uninformed, lazy players.
People like virusdancer exemplify this mindset. Even while he copies and pastes the words "play as a team" and "use sci team," his own bias refuses to let him see the simple connection between those two statements. Meaning, no, not everyone should have sci team in their toolbar... but someone on the team should.
You did, however, touch upon the one root complaint that every one of these threads devolves into - premades. For most of the forum warriors here, this is what they really dislike. They advocate for a system where team play is marginalized and the entire game is dumbed down to serve uninformed, lazy players.
Hrmm, he brought up the difference between the player that might have something for any numbers of reasons that may have nothing to do with its overall effectiveness - heck, they might have zilch that would help what they're using and a coordinated effort from a group that is maximizing the effect of such said items...and how Joe Random shouldn't be treated to the same contempt that a team would.
I mean, it's easy enough to see how you went where you did with it...why you did though...is questionable.
Comments
How wonderful, someone else who needs to resorts to the "I have a life!" line. Go on flexing that e-peen.
I'm sorry if you think I'm the thing stopping you from entering PvP, but I'm in fact trying to make PvP more fair for everyone (elimination of P2W, less power creep) so that it's easier to get into it.
PSW - What if they've got Aux to ID or Omega running? Or, since they've got a massive movement advantage over you, they keep outside the 3KM range? It's far easier for them to stay out of it than for you to get into it.
AMS - Use cheese to counter more cheese?
Evasives - They can move and make sure that you're in it easier than you can move out.
Omega - Yup, that's doing me a ton of good on my Sci ships.
So on and so forth. Yes, there are counters that you can land (VM, etc) and those work. However, the gripe with TIF stems from what it does. It's a massive AoE debuff that gives your team a MASSIVE advantage for no cost other than $$$. Not like you've got to coordinate Alpha strikes/heals/debuffs, you just pop this and your team has a huge advantage.
Never heard of the Federal Reserve, up for a match some time?
The problem with the aspect of cheating is that once the idea takes root you can point it at anyone and smear them. People who know me know my gaming limits, didn't stop several SOB members calling me a hacker. I rejoiced! I asked for some clarification or proof and was just cried and insulted at.
The community is always watchful for any play that can't be explained via existing mechanics. If you think you've got some proof, please share it. Mud-slinging carries little weight.
It's funny. I was told several times that the vast majority of fleets that took part in No BS #3 made it clear they were unwilling to fight Pandas. Yet in No BS #4 I as the organiser didn't receive a SINGLE complain or worry from other fleets. Not a single one. It just goes to show that a few individuals in the community are quite happy to set fire to any event they don't like the look of...
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
hmm i don't have that pay2win power on my ship
photonic shockwave is working for me...i remember i equippd it back then to get rid of evul TSI extends hehe
Oh so everything should be easy i get it if it is hard and takes thought and prevents you from flying freely with no restrictions it should be banned. I feel like im in the pve forum please please make it easy. Is it easy to counter 2 alpha snb attacks is it easy to counter a team with multiple extends i could go on and on. The point is it has multiple counters and people instead of using those counters would rather cry and ban it. So answer me this mai is it supposed to be easy is everyone supposed to run the same build so that you can easily setup and counter it.If you want easy join the no bs tourney. And most of the people i know dont join the bs tourney because of the people involved not the rules get it straight. 90% of the fleets that joined are not even fleets just make shift teams of friends or panda alt characters while there are a few named fleets in it there are far more fleets that didnt join. Some because of the bs rules that they make to fit there play style. And some for the BS people that run them look at the forum posts you will understand so wich is a bigger problem with pvp the consoles or the trolls that cry for hours and cause wars between fleets because they got hit buy grav pulse.
And by the way thanks for making my point with the tif pilot that knows what he is doing statement. It does take skill.
Since we are naming fleets with no moderation lag industries never heard of you ive seen you in here running your mouth alot but never have i been on a team that has lost to your fleet. I thought you were pveers oh wait i forgot now you have pixel pandas in your fleet so i guess that makes you good.
the match where i was using the dkora was a 1vs1 that some SOB challenge me cause i called them noobs for using grav pulse in previuos premade vs random pugs match (in that one i was using my jem'hadar with a non-cheese build, as always). Try to ask about the facts before making rage post.
Not point in continue posting here, u already got your answers, if u use TRIBBLE, don't cry when ppl talks bad about you/your fleet.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Yep, just a QQer here, he's not making valid arguments, he's just crying for the sake of crying. Next thread please!
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
you know, my idea about an external forum is still available :cool:
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Here's your explanation.
Well, let's analyse, shall we?
PSW, Scramble, TBR and VM are high-level science abilities. Not exactly easy to mount.
Nadeon Detonator, AMS, Impulse Cap - Consoles you have to pay for if you're fed. Not easy to obtain either.
APO - high-level tactical. Not much of an issue for escorts, but other ships have trouble.
Target Aux - Unreliable. Rarely actually causes shutdown.
Also, make up your mind on whether we're talking about team vs team or pug vs pug tactics. Team vs team - team strategies can counter a few, but not a stack. Pug vs pug - well, maybe. But let's analyse further, yes?
I shall assume pug vs pug.
Alright, considering the counters, escorts may use APO to get away. Science ships have access to the counters you mentioned (although Scramble is not a true counter - it only turns the ability into a 2-way thing)
But what about cruisers? Most don't have access to the ones mentioned. And most of them don't have the speed to get away, even with EPTE engaged. And how about Evasive? Well, it's the only one now. The canny player will wait until the opponent has used up EM to pop the ability. Besides that, your analysis is flawed in that the TIF user can and will pursue the enemy ship. The Temporal ships are quite fast, and so can easily catch up to most other ships. Running away isn't so easy when the other player can just follow you.
Furthermore, the ability has the potential to affect the entire enemy team. Does this hence mean that it is alright that the entire enemy team has to drop everything and run away, just because of one ability use?
Besides that, your analysis of the cost-of-use is faulty. 2 weapon slots and a console - that's correct. But the synergy is extremely high! Console - boosts turnrate, grav gens (IIRC), and crits. Boosts your maneuverability and your slows, making it easier to land the TIF. I use the console on every one of my ships. The Chroniton bank - again, procs to slow the target, making it easier to land TIF. Not to mention the accuracy is not truly relevant to cruisers, which are certainly losing out, as seen in previous paragraphs. TIF also benefits the bank, as slows make it more likely to hit. Temporal Disruption Device? Again, slow synergy - and if you slow the other person with TIF, even more likely to hit - or just drop it point-blank.
So, the weapons may be junk on their own, but put together, they synergise very well to create a sum much greater than the parts.
Throughout this analysis, you can see that fast ships and most high-level maneuverable science will be able to counter. However, cruisers are left in the dust. In fact, any slow ship, even a science one, will be hard-pressed to counter as VM requires forward arc, getting into 3k range of a moving target is near-impossible on a slow ship (PSW), and Scramble doesn't help. TBR is a possibility, but......other person pops PH/APO or any of the other myriad counters to that, and they're home free.
The meta is already badly skewed towards maneuverable ships. We don't need an ability that
a) results in huge disadvantage if not countered
b) results in further skewing towards fast ships
c) requires little true cost to use
d) requires the use of paid-for consoles in order to counter if in a slow ship
e) reduces the ability of the target to activate counters (cooldowns)
f) can affect multiple targets
I haven't even mentioned the desync issue some users have (fixed for some, but still very much present) and the UI lag on pushing buttons that results (personal experience).
And this is why TIF is frowned upon. On the surface, they may seem to have plenty of counters, but on in-depth analysis, it's not so easy.
Oh, and about that bottish stuff? Knock it off. It's old, and it's never been proven.
Hmm....wonder if this thread will be gone by the time I wake up. Oh well.
You say, "EVERYBODY here knows"? If anything, the amount of discussion I've seen on the topic (in this, and other threads) says the exact opposite is true. Please speak for yourself and not the rest of the community.
From experience, it's the worst pvpers that need to resort to poor sportsmanship, feeling the need to name and shame other players/fleets, and rage quitting from pvp matches. The crying really says more about the QQ-er than the QQ-ee.
Let me just explain a few simple things before I go back to munching on my popcorn.
All of this rage QQ about op consoles, p2w and cheese is a load of TRIBBLE. I've been here since launch and believe me, I've heard it all. You may think you've found something new or interesting to flame about in zone or here on these forums but trust me... it's all old hat and regurgitation. And the sad fact is that it's all disingenuous. There is only one common denominator behind all this QQ - someone lost. And lost badly.
There are basically two types of QQers, as the OP alluded. There are the sheeple who just blindly repeat something they heard on the forums or in some ingame channel. Then there are the ones who have given up on actual PvP and resort to childish name calling. Their words are the only weapon they have left yet, appropriately, are just as ineffective as their attempts at PvP. It's no coincidence that these are the same exact ones who beam out of matches while hiding behind some false justification of taking the high road. We all learned this lesson on the schoolyard playground: there is nothing more childish than "taking your ball and going home." That's not how it works in a competitive environment such as PvP. That's also not how real life works. What would you think if the Tampa Bay Rays left the field in the first inning against the Yankees, crying about the size of their payroll?
Real PvPers learn and adapt. Real PvPers know the state of the game... which is exactly the same state of any other MMORPG. There will always be change. There will always be nerfs, buffs, rebalancing, new skills and new items. Real PvPers know they cannot dictate how someone else plays. That would be insane. Instead, real PvPers prepare themselves as best they can for any situation. Real PvPers invest time understanding the game and its mechanics.
And lastly... for emphasis, these two points deserve their own lines:
Real PvPers play as a team. That is how this game is designed.
Real PvPers don't go into a match without sci team.
The bottom line, gentlemen, are these wise words. Learn them. Love them. Live them:
Less QQ. More Pew Pew.
Just shut up and fight.
What was your valid arguement for why inversion is op i must have missed that. I explained in detail why its not. all i hear from you guys is because i said it therefore its true but i know you lack the knowledge of the game to come up with a counter arguement. Other then because i said so. Or that fleet your not even in is a cheese factory wehat makes it op the aoe hmm ban all aoe skills the slow there are much worse slow effects in the game the timer recharge speed that you can eliminate by moving. what is the criteria the cost 2 weapons slots and a console isnt giving up enough your crazy or is it because daddy said dont use it so i dont.
Sure there are counters to every counter wich is where the fun of the chess match starts you know thought.
So you use evasive the guy chases you leaving the other 4 players out of 5k range good thinking.
so you go to shockwave the guy and and he runs away staying between 4 and 5 k away i doubght it if he runs cool hes out of 5k. If he tries to stay within exactly 4 to 5 k without coming closer and you cant close that distance thats your problem but very hard to do i think to do this would take much skill on the person using inversions part.
Omega wells cant carry omega oh wait that doesnt fit your cookie cutter build sorry
And saying that what it does is instant victory is a bit of an overstatement.
i guess you want easy also. So if one counter doesnt work there are many more that would work its situational just like everything else in the game.
Just wanted to point out, that uh - actually, it's not. Not in the manner in which people often point to it - it's simply not the case.
When you queue...what's the basic option/first option? Just to queue as an individual and be placed on a team, right? There's an additional option to queue as a team, right?
It's not a case of there being an option to join individually if you don't have a team, it's a case of there being an option to join as a team if you have one.
That's quite a distinction...something that's oft overlooked.
Whether you're in a PUG, PUGmade/Trade PUG, or a Premade...you're still on a team. So yes, the game was designed around that...the Premade stuff...is optional - not inherent to the design. If anything, the game massively shows that not enough consideration was given to design efforts to handle Premade teams.
Just wanted to share that...
Probably could have touched upon this with the above, but I wanted to focus on the design element that was brought up...but uh, your definition of a Real PvPer doesn't mean squat to me. You're saying a Real PvPer is ABC...doesn't mean diddly. You might as well be saying that a Real Car has ABC in a parking lot full of Cars while claiming none of the Cars are Cars.
You know, it's just one of those funny things...
Which is why I had to comment on that line...I mean, I had to - it was actually going to be how I started off my reply here, but I decided to end with it instead.
While...there is little doubt that QQ does arise, generally speaking or perhaps just imho - the term QQ is most often used by those that are actually doing the QQ than those they've accused of QQ. It's along the lines of...I don't really know how to reply to something somebody said that would affect my style of play and what I'm doing, I can't think of anything to actually argue against what they're saying, and I don't want to appear as if I can't play without the stuff - here, let me just say that they're QQin' and everybody will get a laugh, it will shift the focus from what I'm doing...yeah, I see it as along those lines.
I'm not sure I've seen it used in another manner than that in over a decade...The QQ is dead, all hail the QQ. It's a trip. No really. It's a trip.
So uh, yeah - thanks for the chuckle. Simple chuckle, no soda on the keyboard - it was funny, but not that funny. But uh, yeah - thanks again.
I would reply but if your only response is to argue semantics on all 3 points, then keep laughing all the way back to irrelevancy.
Oh dear.
Ok. So there are more than a few ways to keep you >3KM away. Tractor Beam, TB Mines, Danubes, VM, Target: Engines, manually piloting since it's stupidly easy due to the fact that your target is slow as molasses, etc.
Now, note that I said that Scis can't carry Omega. I didn't say anything about a Wells, because I don't fly one... What about Nebulas? fRSV? If you're rolling with a LtC Tac on your Wells or Vesta, you've got a highly specialized build or you're gimping yourself on the Sci side just to be able to protect yourself against movement debuffs. If you've flown against me, you know that I run anything but a cookie cutter build.
I also didn't say that it's instant win. I said that it's an advantage. There's no doubt that it provides your team a huge advantage. Moreso that any other ability or console in the whole game.
You haven't addressed my other point at all - yeah, there are counters. But that doesn't change the fact that it affects a massive area with an immensely powerful debuff, with relatively difficult counters, with no other AoEs coming close to being as powerful. And the only way to obtain it is buying large amounts, hence P2W.
Please point out another ability that's half as powerful/potent as this one.
Nailed it!!!!
Excellent point!
You know, this game also allows you to queue up for pvp in a Tier 1 ship. When you start playing, what's the basic/first option? Just to stay in your first ship, with the starter boffs, and basic white weapons and no consoles? But there's an additional option to switch/upgrade your ship, right?
That's also quite a distinction... something that's oft overlooked.
Just wanted to share that...
Semantics? Not a single point was about semantics.
1) Design intention - pointing out that many think the game was designed for Premade teams does not appear to be the case...is not semantics.
2) Opinion - pointing out that some people think they know the true definition of something and everybody else is wrong...is not semantics.
3) Irony - pointing out that, imho, the majority of people that use the term QQ are the folks doing the QQ...is not semantics.
As for being irrelevant...guess I'll just have to find a way to go on with my life.
Excellent point!
Obviously the design behind STO PvP is premised on PUGs flying T1 ships.
It explains why so much is wrong, eh?
First and foremost I would like to thank you for sharing your opinion in connection with PvP. This is exactly what makes the community forward. However not in this arguing tonality.
I truly do not understand what rules you are speak of.
Generally in PvP there is no such rules you've written down. Nevertheless the public jugdes those players who uses only these (called) "chesse" or "broken" consoles or abilities. Because the public jugdes, sad, but they do. However there are who are interested in the public's opinion. This is why because they think these things must not be used in PvP, like as this new elachi console or I should say "Click and dead" console (when it first came out).
But back to the point: if you speak about tournaments' rules, you are wrong. Why? Because if someone undertakes a task like organising a whole tournament, co-ordinating the matches, creating score system etc., then that is obvious that he/she/they will make rules to have fair matches. Otherwise like Team A would have used a lot of these "cheese" and Team B would have not used at all, then the only result from the match will be an argument. Also if rules are not clarified.
With rules they secure that nobody can generate unnecessary and/or irrelevant arguments. (Another example, if you lend someone a certain amount of money, I guess, you think that you will decide when it must be given back, etc. this is also a rule, and you were the "organiser", you were who gave the money. Only here they give their free-time to make a good evening for the community by playing in equal matches.)
This must be followed, not jugded. If you are not pleased with the rules they made, you do not have to participate in, but you are also able to create your own tournament, with your own rules or without rules.
Let's jump to another topic: you speak about abilities and consoles, and other content of STO can be used in PvP. You are right, everything that can be obtained in-game, can be used as well. But the problem with that, that most of the players are only using these stuffs, this is what makes them be called spammers, because the enemy only sees, grav pulse used, then again and again, at the same time with scramble sensors (with the DOFF) are just flying all the time, then 4-5 subnucs, 4-5 inversion fields, new elachi consoles, AMS's... This is the problem, that without these they cannot win. With these tournaments, called "No BS" they are showing with out these (within fair circumstances) there can be also winner, second, third etc., and unfortunately lasts as well.
However this is what shows standards, not the general queues in these times. Sad but true.
Think about it as well, not just about counters.
Yours sincerely,
See, I didn't expect fireworks. Sure, almost everything he's posted has been a complaint about one thing or the other - it's a curious post history...a little schizoid...but hey, aren't we all?
Honestly, I expected most folks to ignore it - it's been done to death in countless threads. Sure, it's kind of entertaining until the mods shut the threads down..but it's gotten a little old, no?
Even Golden Girls had its moments.
I'm inclined to think people are kind of confusing their premade vs premade team environment , with the public Q environment. Yes if you run some of these items in a coordinated fashion it can get ridiculous kinda quick. But that is not the aim of most of the people that are using them. I mean how much do they really want to win if they entered the Q solo, or with only one other person? Would be best to think before accusing them of being p2w noobs, naming and shaming, etc. imho.
It's basic human psychology, my friend. As I've already mentioned, it has nothing to do with consoles, p2w, etc. The fact is that people rarely respond well to getting their asses handed to them. That's the bottom line.
You did, however, touch upon the one root complaint that every one of these threads devolves into - premades. For most of the forum warriors here, this is what they really dislike. They advocate for a system where team play is marginalized and the entire game is dumbed down to serve uninformed, lazy players.
People like virusdancer exemplify this mindset. Even while he copies and pastes the words "play as a team" and "use sci team," his own bias refuses to let him see the simple connection between those two statements. Meaning, no, not everyone should have sci team in their toolbar... but someone on the team should.
Hrmm, he brought up the difference between the player that might have something for any numbers of reasons that may have nothing to do with its overall effectiveness - heck, they might have zilch that would help what they're using and a coordinated effort from a group that is maximizing the effect of such said items...and how Joe Random shouldn't be treated to the same contempt that a team would.
I mean, it's easy enough to see how you went where you did with it...why you did though...is questionable.