Even if there are really pilots in those fighters - they quite likely have emergency trnasporters for the crew.
As to resources... well, considering how almost every player has more ships than fingers.... apparently raw materials and fabrication facilities aren't short anywhere in the galaxy.
So... since when did people become replicatable? O.o It's like you purposely glossed over that key point.
_____________________________________________
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
So we've proven the existence of fighters in Star Trek...anything left to discuss?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
So... since when did people become replicatable? O.o It's like you purposely glossed over that key point.
considering dead crew can become alive again, i would say there are a lot of holograms onboard now with many of the engineers being real people to affect repairs when holoemitters are out.
It comes down to defensive armament. If battleships had the defensive capability to knock those airplanes out of the sky in WW2 we'd of never heard of the carriers rise to power. It would be just another bad idea on the backburner.
So it comes down to a question of a starships weapons being reliable enough to make carrier fighters ineffective? I think they are!
We have yet to see a war where the carrier has truly had it's capabilities tested.
A crew would be necessary on each fighter to make necessary repairs, things the computer simply cannot do on it's own. unless they're holograms or androids..
please keep in mind here people there's a difference between 'fighters' and small warp capable starships. fighters are sub-light ships only.
Lyndon Brewer: 20% chance to capture enemy ship for 60 seconds on successful use of boarding party.
It comes down to defensive armament. If battleships had the defensive capability to knock those airplanes out of the sky in WW2 we'd of never heard of the carriers rise to power. It would be just another bad idea on the backburner.
So it comes down to a question of a starships weapons being reliable enough to make carrier fighters ineffective? I think they are!
We have yet to see a war where the carrier has truly had it's capabilities tested.
A crew would be necessary on each fighter to make necessary repairs, things the computer simply cannot do on it's own. unless they're holograms or androids..
please keep in mind here people there's a difference between 'fighters' and small warp capable starships. fighters are sub-light ships only.
In that case, I'm not sure there are any canon fighters, except maybe the Scorpions.
_____________________________________________
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
In that case, I'm not sure there are any canon fighters, except maybe the Scorpions.
There are a few, Bajorans had sub-warp craft for police duty/planetary defense as well and there were a few others. "Jetfighters" DO exist in Star Trek canon. They are just not viable in space and so are ships carrying these things. Trek Starships all have "Shuttles" which are warp capable small craft that outperform a "Jetfighter" by far especially a craft like a Runabout that's almost a "corvette" type of ship. Yet, these shuttles also were never deployed in direct combat only if desperate or a distraction was needed. I can see a stationary starbase launch some of those to assist the defenders but there's no reason to carry around many of those ships because even with warp-cores, shields and more capable weapons they aren't a real threat to begin with.
The "Federation Attack Fighter" in-canon should also be larger, at least wider, than a Danube class shuttle. Even if a wing of those attack craft would manage to do decent damage you'd not carry those around since it's just not efficient. Place them as interceptors on Starbases - I can go with that. But carriers? No. They should've rather created "command ships" with the ability to let their "pets" warp-in as off-screen reinforcements which pick on a specific target and retreat again.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
even with warp-cores, shields and more capable weapons they aren't a real threat to begin with.
Really ? You should tell that to the Maquis, who were a real pain in the *** for the Cardies, disabling Galor class ship and such, using peregrine only. As mentioned several time, they use the same weaponry than any ship of the line, only less of them. But a photon torp is still a photon torp, and it does the same amount of damage no matter which ship it came from.
I don't understand why there is such a discussion. Carriers are fine. Fighters are seen on screen several time, we even see them disable ship of the line, alone, and we even see a hangar bay in Nemesis. There is also a Khazon ship which is a carrier.
Really ? You should tell that to the Maquis, who were a real pain in the *** for the Cardies, disabling Galor class ship and such, using peregrine only. As mentioned several time, they use the same weaponry than any ship of the line, only less of them. But a photon torp is still a photon torp, and it does the same amount of damage no matter which ship it came from.
I don't understand why there is such a discussion. Carriers are fine. Fighters are seen on screen several time, we even see them disable ship of the line, alone, and we even see a hangar bay in Nemesis. There is also a Khazon ship which is a carrier.
You should read up about "guerilla warfare". The Maquis was a pain in the butt because they operated in the DMZ and the badlands. However you wouldn't argue that the Vietcong had been a match for the US army in open warfare, would you? And the thought that small craft could arm the same types of weaponry (regarding ammunition/power output). They managed to disable Galor-class ships by swarming them in the dozens and a Galor isn't such an impressive cruiser to begin with. But this discussion is tiresome, so I'll argue with something completely not lore-related:
Carriers and Starfighters are so overused and native to EVERY sci-fi universe in existence. What was so bad about keeping Star Trek unique in that regard? Why does everything need to be mushed down into uniformity? The point is if I'm a carrier/fighter fan why would I want to play Star Trek Online in the first place? It all just makes no sense
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Fighters would make perfect sense in having weapons and shields, after all shuttles make use of these devices and can pose a threat to larger ships, so why not a fighter. Also it would make sense to have a carrier even if the fighters were warp capable, because it would eat at their energy reserves to constantly warp long distances just as it does with shuttles and other small craft, so instead they hitch a ride in a larger vessel with power to burn. Several episodes have shown fighter like craft in use for air raids against planets, when orbital strikes are not needed or are overkill.
Fighters would make perfect sense in having weapons and shields, after all shuttles make use of these devices and can pose a threat to larger ships, so why not a fighter. Also it would make sense to have a carrier even if the fighters were warp capable, because it would eat at their energy reserves to constantly warp long distances just as it does with shuttles and other small craft, so instead they hitch a ride in a larger vessel with power to burn. Several episodes have shown fighter like craft in use for air raids against planets, when orbital strikes are not needed or are overkill.
I suspect sub-warp fighters couldn't put up the energy needed to provide shielding and weapons power that would compete with even shuttles. Shuttles on the other hand have been shown to travel distances between DS9 and earth without any trouble of running low on resources. As for planetary operations it's true, however I suspect that shuttles could be used here as well, in fact shuttles especially "runabout" types could completely substitute any form of ground/air vehicle. And every cruiser has the potential to carry and launch shuttles already. Why would you bring masses of those when you can bring cruisers along in a fight in deep space anyway?
EDIT: The link you provided is entirely non/soft canon source. I know that people try to cramp in carriers and fighters in Star Trek since the beginning of time, yet they never made it in there
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Fighters would make perfect sense in having weapons and shields, after all shuttles make use of these devices and can pose a threat to larger ships, so why not a fighter. Also it would make sense to have a carrier even if the fighters were warp capable, because it would eat at their energy reserves to constantly warp long distances just as it does with shuttles and other small craft, so instead they hitch a ride in a larger vessel with power to burn. Several episodes have shown fighter like craft in use for air raids against planets, when orbital strikes are not needed or are overkill.
There should be more carriers. Heck, those shuttles should be able to deploy mini drones, and those mini drones should launch micro drones.
Nanite-carriers! :cool: The just release clouds of nanite drones that'll simply eat up the opposing vessel.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Yeah, all those obnoxious Star Trek fans who wanted Star Trek Online to loosely represent Star Trek. Wussies.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
...Seriously? You actually believe that bolded part? I suppose that is why Carriers COMPLETELY replaced Battleships... Because obviously the core ship was pathetic. Honestly that floating city is very well protected and you have to work hard to bring one down. They may not have deck guns but they pack a wallop in terms of Phalanx and Cruise Missiles. So no... Real Life Carriers are not helpless without their fighters. They are a lot MORE effective WITH their various aircraft but not so weak as you wish to assert them to be.
Well, thats not compelty , in fact - carriers are weak alone in 21.th century and thier airwing si still thier main power.
Yes, they have phalanx canons, sea arow defence missiles....but if in your idea are that so very capable of defence by themself, why they are acopanied by dozens of support ships ? mainly with specialized tin cans - ones for ASW , others for air defence ?
For bombardemt of enemy land you have cruise missile armed crusers, not CVs.
But i think in line that STO carriers are more like crusers/battoleships with just added air wings.
Nonetheless, it IS a natural progression of naval fight. First you have battleship, then you have carriers, which as WWII shown, is just much more effective in ship-to-ship combat
We of coruse now have missile cruisers, but from what I can tell, they are for a different tactic - tehy are essential a fighter that always use ramming speed, and to my knowledge, they are used less against ships and mostly on lands.
well in ST you have lot of figher ships usage, not necesary in movies, but in books you have it.
It is true that fighters are mainlu used ffrom starbases, but bot from ships, but even in startrek you have fighter-capable ****, and i dont speak only about alternate/mirror universe.
In yesterday enterprise galaxy class was without civilians (well except gunan as bartender), but it carried few wings of fighters.
And it was similan in battle in which starfleet was tried to retake DS9 and tried to make breaktthrought caradsian/jemhadar blocade to reach wormhole and prevent reinforcemt of dominin to rech alha quadrant.
When they started under comand of sisco battle, he ordered sqaadrons of figther to start feint atatck, folloved by attack on normal ships.
For the most part I agree with the OP. STO is slowly become less about individual ships and more about the BSG style of conflict: one big ship launching fighters to do a lot of the fighting for it. It doesn't matter if it's more scientifically or historically realistic, or whatever. It has a very un-Trek-like feel to it. Could anyone here imagine Kirk, Janeway, Picard, or Archer saying: "send out the fighters to engage the enemy?"
But then as my sig states, there's not much canon left in STO.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
uhhh that makes it uh STAR shiiiiiiiip, whether it can fight is another story. a dedicated fighter is sub-light only..
Yeah...no.
Being warp capable or not is in no way relevant to a ship being a carrier-launched fighter. it just helps define said ship's operational range and strategic options.
uhhh that makes it uh STAR shiiiiiiiip, whether it can fight is another story. a dedicated fighter is sub-light only..
who says thats what is what decides on how to call something a fighter or starship? peregrine FIGHTERS (thats what they were called in DS9) were warp capable couriers fitted with weaponry. so yeah... your argument doesnt work. you rarely hear shuttles/runabouts/etc being called starships in the series.
Being warp capable or not is in no way relevant to a ship being a carrier-launched fighter. it just helps define said ship's operational range and strategic options.
if it's warp capable it's uh starship. meaning to travel the stars?
uhhh. yeah?
Lyndon Brewer: 20% chance to capture enemy ship for 60 seconds on successful use of boarding party.
Comments
So... since when did people become replicatable? O.o It's like you purposely glossed over that key point.
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
U.S.S. Weatherlight
Would it really change much? A lot of people use full energy weapons anyways...
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
considering dead crew can become alive again, i would say there are a lot of holograms onboard now with many of the engineers being real people to affect repairs when holoemitters are out.
So it comes down to a question of a starships weapons being reliable enough to make carrier fighters ineffective? I think they are!
We have yet to see a war where the carrier has truly had it's capabilities tested.
A crew would be necessary on each fighter to make necessary repairs, things the computer simply cannot do on it's own. unless they're holograms or androids..
please keep in mind here people there's a difference between 'fighters' and small warp capable starships. fighters are sub-light ships only.
cause sometimes its party time!
In that case, I'm not sure there are any canon fighters, except maybe the Scorpions.
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
U.S.S. Weatherlight
There are a few, Bajorans had sub-warp craft for police duty/planetary defense as well and there were a few others. "Jetfighters" DO exist in Star Trek canon. They are just not viable in space and so are ships carrying these things. Trek Starships all have "Shuttles" which are warp capable small craft that outperform a "Jetfighter" by far especially a craft like a Runabout that's almost a "corvette" type of ship. Yet, these shuttles also were never deployed in direct combat only if desperate or a distraction was needed. I can see a stationary starbase launch some of those to assist the defenders but there's no reason to carry around many of those ships because even with warp-cores, shields and more capable weapons they aren't a real threat to begin with.
The "Federation Attack Fighter" in-canon should also be larger, at least wider, than a Danube class shuttle. Even if a wing of those attack craft would manage to do decent damage you'd not carry those around since it's just not efficient. Place them as interceptors on Starbases - I can go with that. But carriers? No. They should've rather created "command ships" with the ability to let their "pets" warp-in as off-screen reinforcements which pick on a specific target and retreat again.
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I don't understand why there is such a discussion. Carriers are fine. Fighters are seen on screen several time, we even see them disable ship of the line, alone, and we even see a hangar bay in Nemesis. There is also a Khazon ship which is a carrier.
You should read up about "guerilla warfare". The Maquis was a pain in the butt because they operated in the DMZ and the badlands. However you wouldn't argue that the Vietcong had been a match for the US army in open warfare, would you? And the thought that small craft could arm the same types of weaponry (regarding ammunition/power output). They managed to disable Galor-class ships by swarming them in the dozens and a Galor isn't such an impressive cruiser to begin with. But this discussion is tiresome, so I'll argue with something completely not lore-related:
Carriers and Starfighters are so overused and native to EVERY sci-fi universe in existence. What was so bad about keeping Star Trek unique in that regard? Why does everything need to be mushed down into uniformity? The point is if I'm a carrier/fighter fan why would I want to play Star Trek Online in the first place? It all just makes no sense
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http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/federation_data.php?filter=Carrier
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I suspect sub-warp fighters couldn't put up the energy needed to provide shielding and weapons power that would compete with even shuttles. Shuttles on the other hand have been shown to travel distances between DS9 and earth without any trouble of running low on resources. As for planetary operations it's true, however I suspect that shuttles could be used here as well, in fact shuttles especially "runabout" types could completely substitute any form of ground/air vehicle. And every cruiser has the potential to carry and launch shuttles already. Why would you bring masses of those when you can bring cruisers along in a fight in deep space anyway?
EDIT: The link you provided is entirely non/soft canon source. I know that people try to cramp in carriers and fighters in Star Trek since the beginning of time, yet they never made it in there
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That really doesn't justify their use in fleet combat, where they're cannon fodder, and rightly so.
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
U.S.S. Weatherlight
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nanite-carriers! :cool: The just release clouds of nanite drones that'll simply eat up the opposing vessel.
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cause sometimes its party time!
They are a blasphemous bunch who would raze this game to the ground like they did with Enterprise.
Well, thats not compelty , in fact - carriers are weak alone in 21.th century and thier airwing si still thier main power.
Yes, they have phalanx canons, sea arow defence missiles....but if in your idea are that so very capable of defence by themself, why they are acopanied by dozens of support ships ? mainly with specialized tin cans - ones for ASW , others for air defence ?
For bombardemt of enemy land you have cruise missile armed crusers, not CVs.
But i think in line that STO carriers are more like crusers/battoleships with just added air wings.
well in ST you have lot of figher ships usage, not necesary in movies, but in books you have it.
It is true that fighters are mainlu used ffrom starbases, but bot from ships, but even in startrek you have fighter-capable ****, and i dont speak only about alternate/mirror universe.
In yesterday enterprise galaxy class was without civilians (well except gunan as bartender), but it carried few wings of fighters.
And it was similan in battle in which starfleet was tried to retake DS9 and tried to make breaktthrought caradsian/jemhadar blocade to reach wormhole and prevent reinforcemt of dominin to rech alha quadrant.
When they started under comand of sisco battle, he ordered sqaadrons of figther to start feint atatck, folloved by attack on normal ships.
But then as my sig states, there's not much canon left in STO.
uhhh that makes it uh STAR shiiiiiiiip, whether it can fight is another story. a dedicated fighter is sub-light only..
the fact it's called a Vulcan 'fighter' is actually a mistake on canon's part. which happens a lot i'm afraid :rolleyes:
cause sometimes its party time!
Yeah...no.
Being warp capable or not is in no way relevant to a ship being a carrier-launched fighter. it just helps define said ship's operational range and strategic options.
who says thats what is what decides on how to call something a fighter or starship? peregrine FIGHTERS (thats what they were called in DS9) were warp capable couriers fitted with weaponry. so yeah... your argument doesnt work. you rarely hear shuttles/runabouts/etc being called starships in the series.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Attack_fighter
the Peregrine fighter is classified as a fighter in-game and it has warpdrive.
if it's warp capable it's uh starship. meaning to travel the stars?
uhhh. yeah?
cause sometimes its party time!
mistake on canons part. it's a starship sry charlie!
cause sometimes its party time!
Considering a ship doesn't need to be warp capable to go to the stars, your argument isn't really getting you anywhere.
Plus, operating as a combat fighter is in no way mutually exclusive with being capable of FTL travel.