First lemme get a few things out of the way, as I know how those in power and the borderline trolls operate on the forums. The #1 tactic to discredit someone here is to criticize their knowledge of the game and/or their "build", let me state the following in advance; I have at least 5 (more counting low level) toons totally or semi-dedicated to PvP each with many good ships. In fact, I no longer build ANYTHING for PvE unless it's exclusively for leveling purposes. Any decent PvP build is easily a good PvE build with a few console (& maybe 2 weapon) swaps. My builds range from poor (which get scrapped and rebuilt), to moderately excellent (and I have every knowledge of what keeps me from exceeding that level). I have sci/tac/eng/ability specific/ship specific/etc builds so I'm not limited in my knowledge. I watch oPvP and run/moderate a variety of channels with plenty of ppl to ask questions. I read the forums, study builds, new items ...well I think you get the picture. Secondly, I do not fully endorse all of OPs ideas, I do, however appreciate his "crusade" to improve PvP, or as I see it "FIX" it. Finally, I have ALOT of time invested playing the game, I mean alot. That being said...
I don't think I fully understand the question here. Does level refer to to actual level? (Lt Cmdr vs VA or lvl 31 v lvl 46? for ex) or to SKILL level? Or something else? So far, I'd say in ANY case a higher "level" player should/would be better. How much better is the real issue.
And that's really the problem with PvP. In game knowledge counts for squat. Learning everything to be learned in game is pretty much PvP 101, getting good at it REQUIRES outside reference. Testing with parsers, reading about what works and what doesn't and ofc the ever popular "secret" builds mechanics that give a distinct advantage. You call BS? play some low level PvP without all the spam, stacked passives, and broken equipment/doffs, and you'll see a much more LEVEL playing field where a moderately, well built ship (yes even a dinky sci), can take out 2-3 escorts or cruisers without much issue based solely on build and skill. By build I mean using standard equipment that works properly by skill I mean using flying and abilities to win, not 100k crits that you get from some glitched combination of DoFFs/Rep equipment/BoFF stacking. And don't tell me ALL low level PvPers are newbs. You can tell who is and who isn't. Lets face it, we most all have alts.
If you mean in general, there is no way to determine by a search unless it would be by their total /played time by all alts. For PvP, it could easily be a rating system (like chess uses) where beating a more skilled player(s) significantly increases your rating while beating a lower one barely improves it. (In fact in chess, if a 2200 rated player beats a 1500 rated, his score will actually go DOWN, but if the 1500 wins, his score might go up by 200!)
Again, that's not a solution to the problem, it's a work-a-round. Hoping to make friends who teach you secrets is not what Star Trek is about. You could know the whole game inside and out yet it means nothing if you aren't "taught" how to make it viable for PvP.
^that^Granted, I don't blame people for doing it, it's just a fact.
Friendly as long as you are part of it. PvP is "player vs player", not "community members vs non-community members". Too much buddy system, not enough actual skill.
Lol, he wants to make it where you don't have to read forums non-stop to at least play semi-competitive PvP on some level. And/or allow non pros to compete without getting stomped by premades, thereby frustrating them to stay away. And LEAVE HIS BUILDS OUT OF THIS. It grows tiresome. Even if he's PvP'd only once, he can see the system is borked. Even if you "fix" his ship for him, he's likely to have the same opinion, as I do.
Spoken like a true god. New players have about 0 chance of ever catching up to the Vets. So it's rly, 1st come, 1st serve? And btw... he's not "improving" anything, he's (hopefully) "fixing" it.
Go ahead, nitpick over my statements and disagree, it won't change anything as to the general 99% of players opinions to PvP. Don't get me wrong, I love PvP, it's actually the only reason I play anymore. Only challenge left. But I also see things that are clearly making it fun for only a handful of people.
1. to actually be able to fix something, you have to know about it first, he knows very little about actually pvping.
2.he is refering to skill level, he wants all players to be equal with maybe a 5-10% difference if you have researched/practced the game or not
3. the same thing will all MMO's, SWTOR, WOW, Rift, STO, etc. they all use a combination of practice and research to get better at PVP.
4. i agree a rating system like that might help, but then you might get a run of huge luck ar a run of really bad luck which would change your score even when you are not any better/worse.
5. asking for help/study/practice is the only way to get better at ANYTHING.
6. you do not have to read forum post after forums post. many of the PVP guides are only a couple posts long, and asking questions in the PVP chat/channel helps a lot as well. though i do agree that you can;t just read you have to practice as well
7. your saying you want people to be jerks to each other????
8. he was not fixing or improving anything, his "fixes" would ruin the game and completely change how the game works, there was an 80 page thread that s now gone where he descended into ignoring everyone simply because they disagreed with him and his "proof" kept backfiring on him
9. you can get a good start at pvp with the tier 5 free ship you get at level 40 and MK X1 gear from mission rewards
Not true, Tapeworm Disagrees with me on EVERYTHING, and we talk reasonable, and are totally civilized to each other, Hell we have even had conversations in game.
And these disagreements have taken place over multiple threads, and yet not once were he "ignored" or "reported" or anything of the sort.
These special "privileges" are reserved for those who have "special needs" for attention.
Please continue to prove my point that you can't handle any kind of criticism.
Not true, Tapeworm Disagrees with me on EVERYTHING, and we talk reasonable, and are totally civilized to each other, Hell we have even had conversations in game.
And these disagreements have taken place over multiple threads, and yet not once were he "ignored" or "reported" or anything of the sort.
These special "privileges" are reserved for those who have "special needs" for attention.
we have been nice to you, showing where you were wrong and pointing out errors. you have shown no proof and now your threads that you said would prove it are backfiring completely.
BTW how do you do split up a single post into multple parts? do you have to do it manually?
When learning at the PvP school of hard knocks, do not forget to ask your fellow players after a match for tips.
This is how I rose out of newbdom. When I was first starting PvP of course I would get owned left and right, but after the match I would message either someone on my team or the other team if they had a very high score at the end. Most people would give me a tip or two, some added me to their friend's list to play in the future, and then I was lucky enough to find one veteran (Hei Qin@Zenith Nader) who basically took me on as a pupil and he would ask if I wanted to team with him every time he went to pvp. Every time we'd play I'd ask him questions and he'd give me tips. I went from having about 1/5 of his score at the end of the match to sometimes actually out-scoring him, although he still had high score the majority of the time. Eventually it got to the point where it wasn't me just asking questions, but we would converse about the game as peers instead of student/teacher and talk about what each of us thought worked and why.
And all of this is happening because the skill system allows Broken rates. To much spam in this game. Spam of Items (% Bonus's from them) Spam of skills, etc.
Nerf these, and you will vastly improve the system
Its not fair for new players to have to "do research" or "get feedback" in order to do pvp.
they should learn the mechanics while leveling. Example, they should learn that when an npc tractor beams them, that you use X skill to get out.
And all methods of leveling should include all types of CC, and even concepts of heavy alpha, or raw dps so they can fundamentally learn how to deal with it.
Well as I said, I can't fully endorse all of your solutions. In fact I think it's matter of convincing devs it would be profitable to fix a problem and let them figure out how. Suggestions are fine, but I can't say X is the ultimate fix. In defense of the ones who oppose you, a higher understanding of these flawed mechanics would need to be achieved before "THIS is the answer." solutions could be accurately provided. However your end goal I am all for and support you on that. I don't mind pointing out when others are opposing you for the wrong reasons also. ;-)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
they should learn the mechanics while leveling. Example, they should learn that when an npc tractor beams them, that you use X skill to get out.
And all methods of leveling should include all types of CC, and even concepts of heavy alpha, or raw dps so they can fundamentally learn how to deal with it.
we have actually all agreed on that even in your weapons thread, this is the first time YOUR actually mentioning it.
[Lol, he wants to make it where you don't have to read forums non-stop to at least play semi-competitive PvP on some level. And/or allow non pros to compete without getting stomped by premades, thereby frustrating them to stay away. And LEAVE HIS BUILDS OUT OF THIS. It grows tiresome. Even if he's PvP'd only once, he can see the system is borked. Even if you "fix" his ship for him, he's likely to have the same opinion, as I do.
B]
No I can't leave his builds out of this, it only takes 5 min to 10 min per day to just browse the pvp section of the forums, and only takes a few min to look for important stickied threads like DDIS list of pvp builds. It doesn't take too long for him to post a thread with his build and ask for help with that instead of complaining. Obviously he can't be bothered to do this so why should we bother to care about his opinion.
Its not too hard for newer characters, I was PVPing and doing pretty good with my Romulan even before I had any rep gear just using the free caustic plasma weapons and stuff from exchange that wasn't more then 1 mil a piece.
Take away the 'skills' gap and you take away one of the main reasons to play.
To improve.
Omegashinzon.
Have you read ANY of the op's other threads?
Its very very obvious that a lack of knowledge and the lack of actually wanting to help himself improve by listening to others is where all of this comes from.
He wants to 'nerf' the game to the point of being an arcade game with next to no learning curve, skill isn't required.
The only thing I agree with is the queues need to be looked at and changed to be more inviting to newer players.
Downside, I don't know of a single game that does that for multiplayer/PvP.
They all require practice to improve, why should this game be any different?
Its not fair for new players to have to "do research" or "get feedback" in order to do pvp.
they should learn the mechanics while leveling. Example, they should learn that when an npc tractor beams them, that you use X skill to get out.
Not fair to do research or get feedback? How else do you expect to learn? Even reading the tool-tips on boff abilities is research, which will, in fact, tell you which skill to use to get out of a tractor beam.
And all methods of leveling should include all types of CC, and even concepts of heavy alpha, or raw dps so they can fundamentally learn how to deal with it.
This, I agree with, but it's never going to happen. STO is a very casual game, and if they made the PvE as difficult as PvP 90% of players would probably leave. Any time there is any increase in difficulty there are hundreds if not thousands of posts complaining that it's too hard (i.e. Borg spheres using the new enhanced EPtE in STFs).
1. to actually be able to fix something, you have to know about it first, he knows very little about actually pvping.
2.he is refering to skill level, he wants all players to be equal with maybe a 5-10% difference if you have researched/practced the game or not
3. the same thing will all MMO's, SWTOR, WOW, Rift, STO, etc. they all use a combination of practice and research to get better at PVP.
4. i agree a rating system like that might help, but then you might get a run of huge luck ar a run of really bad luck which would change your score even when you are not any better/worse.
5. asking for help/study/practice is the only way to get better at ANYTHING.
6. you do not have to read forum post after forums post. many of the PVP guides are only a couple posts long, and asking questions in the PVP chat/channel helps a lot as well. though i do agree that you can;t just read you have to practice as well
7. your saying you want people to be jerks to each other????
8. he was not fixing or improving anything, his "fixes" would ruin the game and completely change how the game works, there was an 80 page thread that s now gone where he descended into ignoring everyone simply because they disagreed with him and his "proof" kept backfiring on him
9. you can get a good start at pvp with the tier 5 free ship you get at level 40 and MK X1 gear from mission rewards
1. Agreed, I've told him as much myself. The problem he poses still exists however.
2. Maybe he doesn't. A ranking system would allow ranks 1/2/3/4/5 to easch be within 5%-10% of each other in their own rank. A rank 1 vs rank 5 might still be 500% difference.
3. If you say so. I only care about STO.
4. That's 2 things we agree on.
5. That's 3.
6. Yeah but it's too much. Too many in game things are broken and taken advantage of and others are wasted abilities. That is hardly "getting better".
7. OFC not.
8. Again, he may or not have the answers. What he does understand is the basic problem.
9. Depends who you are up against. Vs. newbpugs, sure. Vs. a premade, LOLZ.
This is how I rose out of newbdom. When I was first starting PvP of course I would get owned left and right, but after the match I would message either someone on my team or the other team if they had a very high score at the end. Most people would give me a tip or two, some added me to their friend's list to play in the future, and then I was lucky enough to find one veteran (Hei Qin@Zenith Nader) who basically took me on as a pupil and he would ask if I wanted to team with him every time he went to pvp. Every time we'd play I'd ask him questions and he'd give me tips. I went from having about 1/5 of his score at the end of the match to sometimes actually out-scoring him, although he still had high score the majority of the time. Eventually it got to the point where it wasn't me just asking questions, but we would converse about the game as peers instead of student/teacher and talk about what each of us thought worked and why.
Fine fine. But this is PvP, not Samurai Sword Crafting. [-_-]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
No I can't leave his builds out of this, it only takes 5 min to 10 min per day to just browse the pvp section of the forums, and only takes a few min to look for important stickied threads like DDIS list of pvp builds. It doesn't take too long for him to post a thread with his build and ask for help with that instead of complaining. Obviously he can't be bothered to do this so why should we bother to care about his opinion.
Its not too hard for newer characters, I was PVPing and doing pretty good with my Romulan even before I had any rep gear just using the free caustic plasma weapons and stuff from exchange that wasn't more then 1 mil a piece.
So by that logic we will never have any sort of balanced PvP. Newer players will always have an impossible learning curve to catch up to. The strong get stronger faster than the weak do. This can only be resolved 2 ways; change things (as OP suggests), or separate things (as I suggest). Either way the elite stay elite, just not by stomping easy prey. Think of Nascar or Indy racing. More or less equal competitors race, with some having better teams/drivers and thereby winning more. But even Joe Shcmoe has a 1% chance of winning. What you do NOT see is Class 1 cars racing Class 5 ones.
Omegashinzon.
Have you read ANY of the op's other threads?
Its very very obvious that a lack of knowledge and the lack of actually wanting to help himself improve by listening to others is where all of this comes from.
He wants to 'nerf' the game to the point of being an arcade game with next to no learning curve, skill isn't required.
The only thing I agree with is the queues need to be looked at and changed to be more inviting to newer players.
Downside, I don't know of a single game that does that for multiplayer/PvP.
They all require practice to improve, why should this game be any different?
Yeah a bit. I see he has a lack of experience, but I also see power elite PvPers opposing their thrones being revoked. I'm suggesting a compromise can be made. Smashing his idea of "a better PvP" (by fixing obvious issues for most players who enter the arena) solely on those grounds I object to. So essentially I agree with you AND him. My favorite thing you said was "more inviting to new players". That exactly is our universal goal I think. If someone opposes that, I expect a logical reason, not bashing his mystery build.
In fact, I was one of those "interviewed" on ESD by him (I let him keep the 50k ec -_-) and the fact that he was asking random people (mostly newer players) to share opinions gives him a rather unique perspective on the problem. It all falls back to making it where ANYONE can PvP and not feel like their ship is total garbage. Who wants that? But no,I don't think nerfing to infinity players who have been honing their builds/skill is the answer either. The gap is simply WAY to wide currently. Mainly due to trade secrets IMO. In one of his other posts, that was the first thing he said was universally agreed on by all he interviewed if I'm not mistaken, myself included.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Umm, what? I say I learned to PvP by asking people for help and you respond with this? What am I missing here?
Apologies, I did not mean to offend you by trivializing your hard work. There is clearly nothing unrespectable about what you did. It would be nice, however, if one could take pre-existing knowledge of the game and use it to some success in PvP without a "Master" taking you under his wing. Which is essentially what is happening when you find random bits of wisdom found in threads or otherwise online. Even that knowledge is shared sparingly. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my message. *nods*
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
In fact, I was one of those "interviewed" on ESD by him (I let him keep the 50k ec -_-) and the fact that he was asking random people (mostly newer players) to share opinions gives him a rather unique perspective on the problem. It all falls back to making it where ANYONE can PvP and not feel like their ship is total garbage. Who wants that? But no,I don't think nerfing to infinity players who have been honing their builds/skill is the answer either. The gap is simply WAY to wide currently. Mainly due to trade secrets IMO. In one of his other posts, that was the first thing he said was universally agreed on by all he interviewed if I'm not mistaken, myself included.
If that is true, he never shared it with the us, he refused to show the interviews, just saying that they all agreed with him on everything and if we did not believe it we were ignorant, misinformed, tyrants
also, i am not a big PVPer, nor do i use escorts all the time (I prefer cruisers) so it is not just people who are "exploiters" who don't want to see their seat taken away.
And that's really the problem with PvP. In game knowledge counts for squat. Learning everything to be learned in game is pretty much PvP 101, getting good at it REQUIRES outside reference. Testing with parsers, reading about what works and what doesn't and ofc the ever popular "secret" builds mechanics that give a distinct advantage. You call BS? play some low level PvP without all the spam, stacked passives, and broken equipment/doffs, and you'll see a much more LEVEL playing field where a moderately, well built ship (yes even a dinky sci), can take out 2-3 escorts or cruisers without much issue based solely on build and skill. By build I mean using standard equipment that works properly by skill I mean using flying and abilities to win, not 100k crits that you get from some glitched combination of DoFFs/Rep equipment/BoFF stacking. And don't tell me ALL low level PvPers are newbs. You can tell who is and who isn't. Lets face it, we most all have alts.
OkFirst off posting everything in annoying coloursis just that. Very annoying and pretentious.
Yes I haven't seen a good pvper in a lowbie pvp in 3 years. If you are still doing lowbie pvp if you started playing 3 years ago you are a major douche bag. There is no reason to be there other then you can't handle end game pvp.
I haven't qued up a low level pvp in a good year at least... last time I did I did 5x the dmg and 2x the healing and the game ended 15-0 and I felt dirty. I apolagized... mailed a couple victims some nice end game weapons... and still I felt dirty.
Enjoy beating up on the new kids though what ever floats your boat I guess.
Yes end game pvp is more complicated... that isn't a bad thing.
Yes if people are going to complain about mechanics before learning them they should be called on it.
So by that logic we will never have any sort of balanced PvP. Newer players will always have an impossible learning curve to catch up to. The strong get stronger faster than the weak do. This can only be resolved 2 ways; change things (as OP suggests), or separate things (as I suggest). Either way the elite stay elite, just not by stomping easy prey. Think of Nascar or Indy racing. More or less equal competitors race, with some having better teams/drivers and thereby winning more. But even Joe Shcmoe has a 1% chance of winning. What you do NOT see is Class 1 cars racing Class 5 ones.
Yeah a bit. I see he has a lack of experience, but I also see power elite PvPers opposing their thrones being revoked. I'm suggesting a compromise can be made. Smashing his idea of "a better PvP" (by fixing obvious issues for most players who enter the arena) solely on those grounds I object to. So essentially I agree with you AND him. My favorite thing you said was "more inviting to new players". That exactly is our universal goal I think. If someone opposes that, I expect a logical reason, not bashing his mystery build.
In fact, I was one of those "interviewed" on ESD by him (I let him keep the 50k ec -_-) and the fact that he was asking random people (mostly newer players) to share opinions gives him a rather unique perspective on the problem. It all falls back to making it where ANYONE can PvP and not feel like their ship is total garbage. Who wants that? But no,I don't think nerfing to infinity players who have been honing their builds/skill is the answer either. The gap is simply WAY to wide currently. Mainly due to trade secrets IMO. In one of his other posts, that was the first thing he said was universally agreed on by all he interviewed if I'm not mistaken, myself included.
Well, I'm not a high end PvP player, my fleet isn't even a PvP fleet.
If I've managed to start getting to grips with PvP through a little bit of research and questioning, why can't everyone else?
Plenty of other people have done the same themselves.
So what will you have us do?
Dumb the game down so people who can't be bothered to practice, find out and experiment can go in to a competitive match and not have their feelings hurt?
Make it so easy that there is no challenge for most and only slight challenge for the rest?
Why aren't all games like this? I mean you know, all those actual pro FPS players (yes they actually get payed real money) who have learnt how to play shouldn't be allowed to play then?
Apologies, I did not mean to offend you by trivializing your hard work. There is clearly nothing unrespectable about what you did. It would be nice, however, if one could take pre-existing knowledge of the game and use it to some success in PvP without a "Master" taking you under his wing. Which is essentially what is happening when you find random bits of wisdom found in threads or otherwise online. Even that knowledge is shared sparingly. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my message. *nods*
I suppose my point is that if you want to get better at PvP then you need to actively seek to get better. You can't just make some sh*t build without doing any research or even understanding the game's mechanics and hope to compete against people that have done the research and do understand the mechanics. Should I be able to compete against an NBA player in basketball without practicing or even understanding the rules of the game? Of course not. It's the same with any competitive game, and STO is no exception.
Yes, I was fortunate to have someone take me under his wing, but at the same time that didn't just happen out of nowhere. I was actively seeking advice on a daily basis. I was making threads asking for advice in these forums, asking people in PvP matches for advice, and asking questions in OPvP.
When I first started out I had one of the exact same problems that the OP has. I was using 2 tac teams, a sci team and an eng. team on an escort because I didn't understand the concept of shared cooldowns or what exactly shared a cooldown with what. When I posted my build in this forum, people pointed this out to me and when I asked "why" they explained it to me.
This is the exact opposite approach that the OP is taking. We both started out at the same spot, but I made an effort to understand what I was doing wrong and how I can get better. The OP on the other hand is trying to blame the game for his lack of understanding and trying to change the game to fit his predetermined notions of how it should be played instead of trying to change the way he plays in order to fit how the game works. That'd be like me telling the NBA commissioner that I'm actually good enough to play in the NBA if they'd just change the rules about dribbling, fouling, out-of-bounds, and having to shoot the ball through the basket to score. If we changed the rules of basketball to where you just ran around in circles I'd be a pro in no time.
It's quite ironic, because I gave the OP tips in another thread that he made in easy to understand bullet points, but his response was that it was not about him, but rather it was about how to change the game. That is completely unrealistic, unproductive, and ignorant and is not going to help anyone, especially himself.
I suppose my point is that if you want to get better at PvP then you need to actively seek to get better. You can't just make some sh*t build without doing any research or even understanding the game's mechanics and hope to compete against people that have done the research and do understand the mechanics. Should I be able to compete against an NBA player in basketball without practicing or even understanding the rules of the game? Of course not. It's the same with any competitive game, and STO is no exception.
Yes, I was fortunate to have someone take me under his wing, but at the same time that didn't just happen out of nowhere. I was actively seeking advice on a daily basis. I was making threads asking for advice in these forums, asking people in PvP matches for advice, and asking questions in OPvP.
When I first started out I had one of the exact same problems that the OP has. I was using 2 tac teams, a sci team and an eng. team on an escort because I didn't understand the concept of shared cooldowns or what exactly shared a cooldown with what. When I posted my build in this forum, people pointed this out to me and when I asked "why" they explained it to me.
This is the exact opposite approach that the OP is taking. We both started out at the same spot, but I made an effort to understand what I was doing wrong and how I can get better. The OP on the other hand is trying to blame the game for his lack of understanding and trying to change the game to fit his predetermined notions of how it should be played instead of trying to change the way he plays in order to fit how the game works. That'd be like me telling the NBA commissioner that I'm actually good enough to play in the NBA if they'd just change the rules about dribbling, fouling, out-of-bounds, and having to shoot the ball through the basket to score.
It's quite ironic, because I gave the OP tips in another thread that he made in easy to understand bullet points, but his response was that it was not about him, but rather it was about how to change the game. That is completely unrealistic, unproductive, and ignorant and is not going to help anyone, especially himself.
We've all been there I think, endless losing.
What makes it fun though is achievement.
Surviving your first alpha against you.
Making your first kill.
From a Tac perspective, making your first alpha strike.
The list goes on
It would be nice, however, if one could take pre-existing knowledge of the game and use it to some success in PvP without a "Master" taking you under his wing.
You don't need a "Master" taking you under his or her wing to have some success with knowledge that you have gained from the game.
Which is essentially what is happening when you find random bits of wisdom found in threads or otherwise online.
That is essentially pretty false. There's a vast difference between having a "Master", a "Mentor", whatever you want to call he or she...and er, you know - trying to gather as much information as you can and applying it.
I read something that Bruce Lee wrote once, does that essentially mean that he was my "Master" and took me under his wing? No, it means I wanted more knowledge and I went after it.
Yes, getting better at something will require effort...surprise, surprise.
Even that knowledge is shared sparingly.
Bullpuckey. Nothing but bullpuckey. There are countless theory crafters, mix/maxers, spreadsheet warriors that are constantly sharing knowledge of the game.
Not true, Tapeworm Disagrees with me on EVERYTHING, and we talk reasonable, and are totally civilized to each other, Hell we have even had conversations in game.
Since my name got dropped I figured I would add something here. He is correct. I seriously disagreed with his fleet ideas and his economics suggestions.
I however die all the time in PvP, but I also know that I do not spend the time required to improve and so I am not at all upset by it lol. If you see me in Ker'rat and you want a challenge, I should not be your choice. With that said, several players have given me useful suggestions and tips and no one has been rude to me about not being a good PvP'er.
I have no qualms with 100k one shot deals. If I choose to spend the time to figure it out then I could do it too. I default t4 ship piloted by a VA should absolutely destroy a LT in a default t1 ship (providing both players had equal experience with the game).
Since my name got dropped I figured I would add something here. He is correct. I seriously disagreed with his fleet ideas and his economics suggestions.
I however die all the time in PvP, but I also know that I do not spend the time required to improve and so I am not at all upset by it lol. If you see me in Ker'rat and you want a challenge, I should not be your choice. With that said, several players have given me useful suggestions and tips and no one has been rude to me about not being a good PvP'er.
I have no qualms with 100k one shot deals. If I choose to spend the time to figure it out then I could do it too. I default t4 ship piloted by a VA should absolutely destroy a LT in a default t1 ship (providing both players had equal experience with the game).
I like this post.
Its a nicely rounded outlook.
It also goes someway to say that you can take your time or blast through and try and improve all the time at a high pace.
Let me explain for the people in this thread the folly of pointing out my builds as a point to invalidate my position, I will only explain it once, So read carefully.
Inorder to be competitive in sto PVP, You must learn how to "break" the mechanics, Like everyone else. You need to learn how to break tanking, to become the point of becoming near to unkillable, Or damage to less the 5 second kills. You do this through learning both a combination of what skills to use, how to use them, as well as what items accompany them to do this.
Learning this system, Does resolve an issue of being killed, But its end result is just propagating a system where I am working to support the very thing i am against, That is killing the ignorant until they complain and then telling them "its your fault, your a newb and dont know how to build, go learn to break the system like the rest of us".
My objective is to stop this. Under no situation should people need to read to be competitive in pvp. They should read to excel in it. that is a very big difference to the current "must read/get help to pvp competitively" So when omega says "I wont change my position, even if you help" He is correct, and no amount of helping, or trying to get me to change my build will end this "Crusade".
the crusade will end, when you exploiters get bat nerfed in to the group. And i am going to rofl at you when it happens, because half if not more of you are going to become TRIBBLE pvpers.
Let me explain for the people in this thread the folly of pointing out my builds as a point to invalidate my position, I will only explain it once, So read carefully.
Inorder to be competitive in sto PVP, You must learn how to "break" the mechanics, Like everyone else. You need to learn how to break tanking, to become the point of becoming near to unkillable, Or damage to less the 5 second kills. You do this through learning both a combination of what skills to use, how to use them, as well as what items accompany them to do this.
Learning this system, Does resolve an issue of being killed, But its end result is just propagating a system where I am working to support the very thing i am against, That is killing the ignorant until they complain and then telling them "its your fault, your a newb and dont know how to build, go learn to break the system like the rest of us".
My objective is to stop this. Under no situation should people need to read to be competitive in pvp. They should read to excel in it. that is a very big difference to the current "must read/get help to pvp competitively" So when omega says "I wont change my position, even if you help" He is correct, and no amount of helping, or trying to get me to change my build will end this "Crusade".
the crusade will end, when you exploiters get bat nerfed in to the group. And i am going to rofl at you when it happens, because half if not more of you are going to become TRIBBLE pvpers.
Cheaters Never prosper.
If you have played ANY MMO, you would no you need to have done research before hand to do good in PVP. this is not just STO, despite what you think, it is with all MMOs
most of us are laughing at you right now, as your own threads are backfiring horribly on you.
Let me explain for the people in this thread the folly of pointing out my builds as a point to invalidate my position, I will only explain it once, So read carefully.
Inorder to be competitive in sto PVP, You must learn how to "break" the mechanics, Like everyone else. You need to learn how to break tanking, to become the point of becoming near to unkillable, Or damage to less the 5 second kills. You do this through learning both a combination of what skills to use, how to use them, as well as what items accompany them to do this.
Learning this system, Does resolve an issue of being killed, But its end result is just propagating a system where I am working to support the very thing i am against, That is killing the ignorant until they complain and then telling them "its your fault, your a newb and dont know how to build, go learn to break the system like the rest of us".
My objective is to stop this. Under no situation should people need to read to be competitive in pvp. They should read to excel in it. that is a very big difference to the current "must read/get help to pvp competitively" So when omega says "I wont change my position, even if you help" He is correct, and no amount of helping, or trying to get me to change my build will end this "Crusade".
the crusade will end, when you exploiters get bat nerfed in to the group. And i am going to rofl at you when it happens, because half if not more of you are going to become TRIBBLE pvpers.
Cheaters Never prosper.
So in other words, you're a delusional nutbag. Got it.
the crusade will end, when you exploiters get bat nerfed in to the group. And i am going to rofl at you when it happens, because half if not more of you are going to become TRIBBLE pvpers.
Cheaters Never prosper.
So bothering to read tooltips on abilites and items, grind the marks/dil/ec for said items, and bothering to research and test new builds is an exploit? Or is it simply being able to beat you that is the exploit?:rolleyes:
If you want I can set up a free ship or mirror ship with only green and blue gear and doffs, and restricting myself to no rep gear and only items bought near face value off of exchange and you might survive against me a few more seconds then you did last time I popped you. It is your builds and refusal to spend any time reading and learning for even a small fraction of the time you spend posting.
OkFirst off posting everything in annoying coloursis just that. Very annoying and pretentious.
Yes I haven't seen a good pvper in a lowbie pvp in 3 years. If you are still doing lowbie pvp if you started playing 3 years ago you are a major douche bag. There is no reason to be there other then you can't handle end game pvp.
I haven't qued up a low level pvp in a good year at least... last time I did I did 5x the dmg and 2x the healing and the game ended 15-0 and I felt dirty. I apolagized... mailed a couple victims some nice end game weapons... and still I felt dirty.
Enjoy beating up on the new kids though what ever floats your boat I guess.
Yes end game pvp is more complicated... that isn't a bad thing.
Yes if people are going to complain about mechanics before learning them they should be called on it.
Wow, you managed to flame and insult on 5/6 of your comments. That's impressive even for you. I've read your posts regarding similar things, and time and time again and your stance is always the same. Heh, I was rather surprised you didn't call for a Valdore console BUFF, and at least recognized it's beyond intended performance. Far as the issue here, you have failed to make a single point as usual except you like things the way there are. <Noted.> No real need to go any further.
(Also; all white letters, just for you ;-))
Well, I'm not a high end PvP player, my fleet isn't even a PvP fleet.
If I've managed to start getting to grips with PvP through a little bit of research and questioning, why can't everyone else?
Plenty of other people have done the same themselves.
So what will you have us do?
Dumb the game down so people who can't be bothered to practice, find out and experiment can go in to a competitive match and not have their feelings hurt?
Make it so easy that there is no challenge for most and only slight challenge for the rest?
Why aren't all games like this? I mean you know, all those actual pro FPS players (yes they actually get payed real money) who have learnt how to play shouldn't be allowed to play then?
I don't have the answers to that, the Devs do, if they care to improve PvP, they will have to decide themselves. OP has some interesting ideas, not all of which I like. I do however welcome the change should it come. Interesting that an overwhelming proportion of players would as well, but not the ones currently dominating. I think you are drawing extreme conclusions from a major change that somehow pro-PvPers would suddenly be no better off than Captain Average Player. I highly doubt that in any scenario.
I................
It's quite ironic, because I gave the OP tips in another thread that he made in easy to understand bullet points, but his response was that it was not about him, but rather it was about how to change the game. That is completely unrealistic, unproductive, and ignorant and is not going to help anyone, especially himself.
I'm gonna assume you are an alright guy and advise you not to let others suck you down to the level of discrediting someone based on there lack of "skill" if it can be called that. The fact that he's not good kinda gives him credit. Not on being an expert at the dynamics of PvP, but the sheer overwhelmingness from a nooby point of view. Not at all welcoming to fresh players, & not at all easy to even understand what's going on. We aren't talking X ship makes all teh kills, get X ship. It's more like X,Y,or Z ship (simplified)+X,Y,or Z broken equipment+X or Y Broken DoFFs/BoFFs+some legit skill/spec knowledge gets all teh kills. He's calling BS on that and I agree.
The OP is just trying to start ****. He also griefs people with his antics in PvP.
Don't fall for his TRIBBLE. And certainly don't respond to his posts with any seriousness.
YOU, I respect. I read your posts often as well and even when you disagree, it's with some logic behind it and tastefully done. In this case, I'm intrigued by OP putting so much effort into this and wanna see where it leads. Probably just being bashed on the forums but who knows.
You don't need a "Master" taking you under his or her wing to have some success with knowledge that you have gained from the game.
That is essentially pretty false. There's a vast difference between having a "Master", a "Mentor", whatever you want to call he or she...and er, you know - trying to gather as much information as you can and applying it.
I read something that Bruce Lee wrote once, does that essentially mean that he was my "Master" and took me under his wing? No, it means I wanted more knowledge and I went after it.
Yes, getting better at something will require effort...surprise, surprise.
Bullpuckey. Nothing but bullpuckey. There are countless theory crafters, mix/maxers, spreadsheet warriors that are constantly sharing knowledge of the game.
Yes, and major props to those who compile info and post it. (Why does'nt PWE/Cryptic do something like this?) But I'm still waiting to see the spreadsheet that includes all the secret combinations that actually WORK. I know they exist, you know they exist. It's not skill, it's game manipulation. And that's all fine and dandy, but where/how is the new player (or LEARNING) player supposed to compete? I'll borrow an NBA reference from another poster. NBA players do not learn to compete by starting vs. NBA teams while still in high school. They work their way up the ranks. Having "Crested Pines High School Varsity" team play the Chicago Bulls to "get better" is just ridiculous.
Let me explain for the people in this thread the folly of pointing out my builds as a point to invalidate my position, I will only explain it once, So read carefully.
Inorder to be competitive in sto PVP, You must learn how to "break" the mechanics, Like everyone else. You need to learn how to break tanking, to become the point of becoming near to unkillable, Or damage to less the 5 second kills. You do this through learning both a combination of what skills to use, how to use them, as well as what items accompany them to do this.
Learning this system, Does resolve an issue of being killed, But its end result is just propagating a system where I am working to support the very thing i am against, That is killing the ignorant until they complain and then telling them "its your fault, your a newb and dont know how to build, go learn to break the system like the rest of us".
My objective is to stop this. Under no situation should people need to read to be competitive in pvp. They should read to excel in it. that is a very big difference to the current "must read/get help to pvp competitively" So when omega says "I wont change my position, even if you help" He is correct, and no amount of helping, or trying to get me to change my build will end this "Crusade".
the crusade will end, when you exploiters get bat nerfed in to the group. And i am going to rofl at you when it happens, because half if not more of you are going to become TRIBBLE pvpers.
Cheaters Never prosper.
Don't bother Uhmari, as I already stated, it's certain ppls #1 tactic to discredit you (and therefore your entire idea) by criticizing your build. I've seen it a dozen times. BTW: Bashing an opponent's reputation and shifting the subject are both high on the list of unethical debating practices. It skirts the issue at hand. In essence, I agree wholeheartedly with 90% of what you said here. Not sure I'd call them cheaters though, the current system doesn't allow for any other method.
So bothering to read tooltips on abilites and items, grind the marks/dil/ec for said items, and bothering to research and test new builds is an exploit? Or is it simply being able to beat you that is the exploit?:rolleyes:
If you want I can set up a free ship or mirror ship with only green and blue gear and doffs, and restricting myself to no rep gear and only items bought near face value off of exchange and you might survive against me a few more seconds then you did last time I popped you. It is your builds and refusal to spend any time reading and learning for even a small fraction of the time you spend posting.
Tooltips are vague and misleading, often not working as stated, either for the better or for the worse. Grinding gets you gear that helps, but does not make anyone "good" by a longshot. I hate the word exploit so let's just say knowing what items are which and employing an overwhelming stack of them is in a nutshell causing a problem for everyone else. Learning the game is one thing, learning to make your Jem Bug do non-stop evasive maneuver speeds and immune from trac beams is something else. (the only example I care to use). I am NOT against employing cleverness to win, be it one way or the other. I AM against calling it "skill" and everyone who doesn't know it, newbys. Secrets, lot's of them. Outside of PvP fleets and a few inner circles, secrets. That's cool, just give those without the insight a way to play using regular, intended, game mechanics.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Let me summarize for the OP and our purple texting friend.
What I am hearing... is people spend hours and hours learning how to play the game. Understanding how each skill works... and how they interact with each other. This is clearly in your views an exploit.
Did I sum it up properly... if I did does it not seem pretty silly to you.
This would be like saying Wayne G. Should have slowed down and not spent 1000s of hours as a kid learning how to throw the perfect saucer pass. MJ should NOT have gotten back out on the court when he was cut from his high school basketball team. There was no point in spending 1000s of hours out there to get better. Really those guys where total exploiters.
Come on guys most of the Long time PvPers you guys seem to hate are not saying the game is perfect. I have posted plenty of my own this is what I would like fixed threads. Sometimes I believe I am right and I am willing to admit I am sometimes wrong. I will admit to playing this game far to much... I haven't added /played times up lately but I have no doubt I have been in game for time totaling over 6 months easy... its sad. However I will admit I still don't always know exact mechanics of things. Things change all the time. People that care keep up... that doesn't make them exploiters. Any more then MJ was exploiting when he decided his game needed more defense and adjusted. Or when Wayne changed it up half way through his career and started bagging 2x as many assists as goals. Great players adjust... if your not at that level no one blames you.
To further my analogy and so you can understand why so many people are treating you in a perhaps an abrupt manner. If the NHL or NBA was sitting down to consider rule changes in there respective games... do you think they should place more weight in the insights from MJ and WG as opposed to insights from bench warmers in those games minor leagues. (not saying anyone in STO belongs in either category... just making a point here)
Comments
1. to actually be able to fix something, you have to know about it first, he knows very little about actually pvping.
2.he is refering to skill level, he wants all players to be equal with maybe a 5-10% difference if you have researched/practced the game or not
3. the same thing will all MMO's, SWTOR, WOW, Rift, STO, etc. they all use a combination of practice and research to get better at PVP.
4. i agree a rating system like that might help, but then you might get a run of huge luck ar a run of really bad luck which would change your score even when you are not any better/worse.
5. asking for help/study/practice is the only way to get better at ANYTHING.
6. you do not have to read forum post after forums post. many of the PVP guides are only a couple posts long, and asking questions in the PVP chat/channel helps a lot as well. though i do agree that you can;t just read you have to practice as well
7. your saying you want people to be jerks to each other????
8. he was not fixing or improving anything, his "fixes" would ruin the game and completely change how the game works, there was an 80 page thread that s now gone where he descended into ignoring everyone simply because they disagreed with him and his "proof" kept backfiring on him
9. you can get a good start at pvp with the tier 5 free ship you get at level 40 and MK X1 gear from mission rewards
Please continue to prove my point that you can't handle any kind of criticism.
we have been nice to you, showing where you were wrong and pointing out errors. you have shown no proof and now your threads that you said would prove it are backfiring completely.
BTW how do you do split up a single post into multple parts? do you have to do it manually?
This is how I rose out of newbdom. When I was first starting PvP of course I would get owned left and right, but after the match I would message either someone on my team or the other team if they had a very high score at the end. Most people would give me a tip or two, some added me to their friend's list to play in the future, and then I was lucky enough to find one veteran (Hei Qin@Zenith Nader) who basically took me on as a pupil and he would ask if I wanted to team with him every time he went to pvp. Every time we'd play I'd ask him questions and he'd give me tips. I went from having about 1/5 of his score at the end of the match to sometimes actually out-scoring him, although he still had high score the majority of the time. Eventually it got to the point where it wasn't me just asking questions, but we would converse about the game as peers instead of student/teacher and talk about what each of us thought worked and why.
@DevolvedOne
Well as I said, I can't fully endorse all of your solutions. In fact I think it's matter of convincing devs it would be profitable to fix a problem and let them figure out how. Suggestions are fine, but I can't say X is the ultimate fix. In defense of the ones who oppose you, a higher understanding of these flawed mechanics would need to be achieved before "THIS is the answer." solutions could be accurately provided. However your end goal I am all for and support you on that. I don't mind pointing out when others are opposing you for the wrong reasons also. ;-)
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
we have actually all agreed on that even in your weapons thread, this is the first time YOUR actually mentioning it.
No I can't leave his builds out of this, it only takes 5 min to 10 min per day to just browse the pvp section of the forums, and only takes a few min to look for important stickied threads like DDIS list of pvp builds. It doesn't take too long for him to post a thread with his build and ask for help with that instead of complaining. Obviously he can't be bothered to do this so why should we bother to care about his opinion.
Its not too hard for newer characters, I was PVPing and doing pretty good with my Romulan even before I had any rep gear just using the free caustic plasma weapons and stuff from exchange that wasn't more then 1 mil a piece.
To improve.
Omegashinzon.
Have you read ANY of the op's other threads?
Its very very obvious that a lack of knowledge and the lack of actually wanting to help himself improve by listening to others is where all of this comes from.
He wants to 'nerf' the game to the point of being an arcade game with next to no learning curve, skill isn't required.
The only thing I agree with is the queues need to be looked at and changed to be more inviting to newer players.
Downside, I don't know of a single game that does that for multiplayer/PvP.
They all require practice to improve, why should this game be any different?
This, I agree with, but it's never going to happen. STO is a very casual game, and if they made the PvE as difficult as PvP 90% of players would probably leave. Any time there is any increase in difficulty there are hundreds if not thousands of posts complaining that it's too hard (i.e. Borg spheres using the new enhanced EPtE in STFs).
@DevolvedOne
Sorry, you lost me after that.
At any rate, I'm not defending every statement or suggestion OP's ever made.
1. Agreed, I've told him as much myself. The problem he poses still exists however.
2. Maybe he doesn't. A ranking system would allow ranks 1/2/3/4/5 to easch be within 5%-10% of each other in their own rank. A rank 1 vs rank 5 might still be 500% difference.
3. If you say so. I only care about STO.
4. That's 2 things we agree on.
5. That's 3.
6. Yeah but it's too much. Too many in game things are broken and taken advantage of and others are wasted abilities. That is hardly "getting better".
7. OFC not.
8. Again, he may or not have the answers. What he does understand is the basic problem.
9. Depends who you are up against. Vs. newbpugs, sure. Vs. a premade, LOLZ.
Fine fine. But this is PvP, not Samurai Sword Crafting. [-_-]
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
Umm, what? I say I learned to PvP by asking people for help and you respond with this? What am I missing here?
@DevolvedOne
So by that logic we will never have any sort of balanced PvP. Newer players will always have an impossible learning curve to catch up to. The strong get stronger faster than the weak do. This can only be resolved 2 ways; change things (as OP suggests), or separate things (as I suggest). Either way the elite stay elite, just not by stomping easy prey. Think of Nascar or Indy racing. More or less equal competitors race, with some having better teams/drivers and thereby winning more. But even Joe Shcmoe has a 1% chance of winning. What you do NOT see is Class 1 cars racing Class 5 ones.
Yeah a bit. I see he has a lack of experience, but I also see power elite PvPers opposing their thrones being revoked. I'm suggesting a compromise can be made. Smashing his idea of "a better PvP" (by fixing obvious issues for most players who enter the arena) solely on those grounds I object to. So essentially I agree with you AND him. My favorite thing you said was "more inviting to new players". That exactly is our universal goal I think. If someone opposes that, I expect a logical reason, not bashing his mystery build.
In fact, I was one of those "interviewed" on ESD by him (I let him keep the 50k ec -_-) and the fact that he was asking random people (mostly newer players) to share opinions gives him a rather unique perspective on the problem. It all falls back to making it where ANYONE can PvP and not feel like their ship is total garbage. Who wants that? But no,I don't think nerfing to infinity players who have been honing their builds/skill is the answer either. The gap is simply WAY to wide currently. Mainly due to trade secrets IMO. In one of his other posts, that was the first thing he said was universally agreed on by all he interviewed if I'm not mistaken, myself included.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
Apologies, I did not mean to offend you by trivializing your hard work. There is clearly nothing unrespectable about what you did. It would be nice, however, if one could take pre-existing knowledge of the game and use it to some success in PvP without a "Master" taking you under his wing. Which is essentially what is happening when you find random bits of wisdom found in threads or otherwise online. Even that knowledge is shared sparingly. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my message. *nods*
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
If that is true, he never shared it with the us, he refused to show the interviews, just saying that they all agreed with him on everything and if we did not believe it we were ignorant, misinformed, tyrants
also, i am not a big PVPer, nor do i use escorts all the time (I prefer cruisers) so it is not just people who are "exploiters" who don't want to see their seat taken away.
Ok First off posting everything in annoying colours is just that. Very annoying and pretentious.
Yes I haven't seen a good pvper in a lowbie pvp in 3 years. If you are still doing lowbie pvp if you started playing 3 years ago you are a major douche bag. There is no reason to be there other then you can't handle end game pvp.
I haven't qued up a low level pvp in a good year at least... last time I did I did 5x the dmg and 2x the healing and the game ended 15-0 and I felt dirty. I apolagized... mailed a couple victims some nice end game weapons... and still I felt dirty.
Enjoy beating up on the new kids though what ever floats your boat I guess.
Yes end game pvp is more complicated... that isn't a bad thing.
Yes if people are going to complain about mechanics before learning them they should be called on it.
Well, I'm not a high end PvP player, my fleet isn't even a PvP fleet.
If I've managed to start getting to grips with PvP through a little bit of research and questioning, why can't everyone else?
Plenty of other people have done the same themselves.
So what will you have us do?
Dumb the game down so people who can't be bothered to practice, find out and experiment can go in to a competitive match and not have their feelings hurt?
Make it so easy that there is no challenge for most and only slight challenge for the rest?
Why aren't all games like this? I mean you know, all those actual pro FPS players (yes they actually get payed real money) who have learnt how to play shouldn't be allowed to play then?
I suppose my point is that if you want to get better at PvP then you need to actively seek to get better. You can't just make some sh*t build without doing any research or even understanding the game's mechanics and hope to compete against people that have done the research and do understand the mechanics. Should I be able to compete against an NBA player in basketball without practicing or even understanding the rules of the game? Of course not. It's the same with any competitive game, and STO is no exception.
Yes, I was fortunate to have someone take me under his wing, but at the same time that didn't just happen out of nowhere. I was actively seeking advice on a daily basis. I was making threads asking for advice in these forums, asking people in PvP matches for advice, and asking questions in OPvP.
When I first started out I had one of the exact same problems that the OP has. I was using 2 tac teams, a sci team and an eng. team on an escort because I didn't understand the concept of shared cooldowns or what exactly shared a cooldown with what. When I posted my build in this forum, people pointed this out to me and when I asked "why" they explained it to me.
This is the exact opposite approach that the OP is taking. We both started out at the same spot, but I made an effort to understand what I was doing wrong and how I can get better. The OP on the other hand is trying to blame the game for his lack of understanding and trying to change the game to fit his predetermined notions of how it should be played instead of trying to change the way he plays in order to fit how the game works. That'd be like me telling the NBA commissioner that I'm actually good enough to play in the NBA if they'd just change the rules about dribbling, fouling, out-of-bounds, and having to shoot the ball through the basket to score. If we changed the rules of basketball to where you just ran around in circles I'd be a pro in no time.
It's quite ironic, because I gave the OP tips in another thread that he made in easy to understand bullet points, but his response was that it was not about him, but rather it was about how to change the game. That is completely unrealistic, unproductive, and ignorant and is not going to help anyone, especially himself.
@DevolvedOne
We've all been there I think, endless losing.
What makes it fun though is achievement.
Surviving your first alpha against you.
Making your first kill.
From a Tac perspective, making your first alpha strike.
The list goes on
Don't fall for his TRIBBLE. And certainly don't respond to his posts with any seriousness.
You don't need a "Master" taking you under his or her wing to have some success with knowledge that you have gained from the game.
That is essentially pretty false. There's a vast difference between having a "Master", a "Mentor", whatever you want to call he or she...and er, you know - trying to gather as much information as you can and applying it.
I read something that Bruce Lee wrote once, does that essentially mean that he was my "Master" and took me under his wing? No, it means I wanted more knowledge and I went after it.
Yes, getting better at something will require effort...surprise, surprise.
Bullpuckey. Nothing but bullpuckey. There are countless theory crafters, mix/maxers, spreadsheet warriors that are constantly sharing knowledge of the game.
Since my name got dropped I figured I would add something here. He is correct. I seriously disagreed with his fleet ideas and his economics suggestions.
I however die all the time in PvP, but I also know that I do not spend the time required to improve and so I am not at all upset by it lol. If you see me in Ker'rat and you want a challenge, I should not be your choice. With that said, several players have given me useful suggestions and tips and no one has been rude to me about not being a good PvP'er.
I have no qualms with 100k one shot deals. If I choose to spend the time to figure it out then I could do it too. I default t4 ship piloted by a VA should absolutely destroy a LT in a default t1 ship (providing both players had equal experience with the game).
I like this post.
Its a nicely rounded outlook.
It also goes someway to say that you can take your time or blast through and try and improve all the time at a high pace.
Inorder to be competitive in sto PVP, You must learn how to "break" the mechanics, Like everyone else. You need to learn how to break tanking, to become the point of becoming near to unkillable, Or damage to less the 5 second kills. You do this through learning both a combination of what skills to use, how to use them, as well as what items accompany them to do this.
Learning this system, Does resolve an issue of being killed, But its end result is just propagating a system where I am working to support the very thing i am against, That is killing the ignorant until they complain and then telling them "its your fault, your a newb and dont know how to build, go learn to break the system like the rest of us".
My objective is to stop this. Under no situation should people need to read to be competitive in pvp. They should read to excel in it. that is a very big difference to the current "must read/get help to pvp competitively" So when omega says "I wont change my position, even if you help" He is correct, and no amount of helping, or trying to get me to change my build will end this "Crusade".
the crusade will end, when you exploiters get bat nerfed in to the group. And i am going to rofl at you when it happens, because half if not more of you are going to become TRIBBLE pvpers.
Cheaters Never prosper.
If you have played ANY MMO, you would no you need to have done research before hand to do good in PVP. this is not just STO, despite what you think, it is with all MMOs
most of us are laughing at you right now, as your own threads are backfiring horribly on you.
So in other words, you're a delusional nutbag. Got it.
@DevolvedOne
So bothering to read tooltips on abilites and items, grind the marks/dil/ec for said items, and bothering to research and test new builds is an exploit? Or is it simply being able to beat you that is the exploit?:rolleyes:
If you want I can set up a free ship or mirror ship with only green and blue gear and doffs, and restricting myself to no rep gear and only items bought near face value off of exchange and you might survive against me a few more seconds then you did last time I popped you. It is your builds and refusal to spend any time reading and learning for even a small fraction of the time you spend posting.
Wow, you managed to flame and insult on 5/6 of your comments. That's impressive even for you. I've read your posts regarding similar things, and time and time again and your stance is always the same. Heh, I was rather surprised you didn't call for a Valdore console BUFF, and at least recognized it's beyond intended performance. Far as the issue here, you have failed to make a single point as usual except you like things the way there are. <Noted.> No real need to go any further.
(Also; all white letters, just for you ;-))
I don't have the answers to that, the Devs do, if they care to improve PvP, they will have to decide themselves. OP has some interesting ideas, not all of which I like. I do however welcome the change should it come. Interesting that an overwhelming proportion of players would as well, but not the ones currently dominating. I think you are drawing extreme conclusions from a major change that somehow pro-PvPers would suddenly be no better off than Captain Average Player. I highly doubt that in any scenario.
I'm gonna assume you are an alright guy and advise you not to let others suck you down to the level of discrediting someone based on there lack of "skill" if it can be called that. The fact that he's not good kinda gives him credit. Not on being an expert at the dynamics of PvP, but the sheer overwhelmingness from a nooby point of view. Not at all welcoming to fresh players, & not at all easy to even understand what's going on. We aren't talking X ship makes all teh kills, get X ship. It's more like X,Y,or Z ship (simplified)+X,Y,or Z broken equipment+X or Y Broken DoFFs/BoFFs+some legit skill/spec knowledge gets all teh kills. He's calling BS on that and I agree.
YOU, I respect. I read your posts often as well and even when you disagree, it's with some logic behind it and tastefully done. In this case, I'm intrigued by OP putting so much effort into this and wanna see where it leads. Probably just being bashed on the forums but who knows.
Yes, and major props to those who compile info and post it. (Why does'nt PWE/Cryptic do something like this?) But I'm still waiting to see the spreadsheet that includes all the secret combinations that actually WORK. I know they exist, you know they exist. It's not skill, it's game manipulation. And that's all fine and dandy, but where/how is the new player (or LEARNING) player supposed to compete? I'll borrow an NBA reference from another poster. NBA players do not learn to compete by starting vs. NBA teams while still in high school. They work their way up the ranks. Having "Crested Pines High School Varsity" team play the Chicago Bulls to "get better" is just ridiculous.
Don't bother Uhmari, as I already stated, it's certain ppls #1 tactic to discredit you (and therefore your entire idea) by criticizing your build. I've seen it a dozen times. BTW: Bashing an opponent's reputation and shifting the subject are both high on the list of unethical debating practices. It skirts the issue at hand. In essence, I agree wholeheartedly with 90% of what you said here. Not sure I'd call them cheaters though, the current system doesn't allow for any other method.
Tooltips are vague and misleading, often not working as stated, either for the better or for the worse. Grinding gets you gear that helps, but does not make anyone "good" by a longshot. I hate the word exploit so let's just say knowing what items are which and employing an overwhelming stack of them is in a nutshell causing a problem for everyone else. Learning the game is one thing, learning to make your Jem Bug do non-stop evasive maneuver speeds and immune from trac beams is something else. (the only example I care to use). I am NOT against employing cleverness to win, be it one way or the other. I AM against calling it "skill" and everyone who doesn't know it, newbys. Secrets, lot's of them. Outside of PvP fleets and a few inner circles, secrets. That's cool, just give those without the insight a way to play using regular, intended, game mechanics.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
If only I knew that 3 years ago...
Do you even Science Bro?
Let me summarize for the OP and our purple texting friend.
What I am hearing... is people spend hours and hours learning how to play the game. Understanding how each skill works... and how they interact with each other. This is clearly in your views an exploit.
Did I sum it up properly... if I did does it not seem pretty silly to you.
This would be like saying Wayne G. Should have slowed down and not spent 1000s of hours as a kid learning how to throw the perfect saucer pass. MJ should NOT have gotten back out on the court when he was cut from his high school basketball team. There was no point in spending 1000s of hours out there to get better. Really those guys where total exploiters.
Come on guys most of the Long time PvPers you guys seem to hate are not saying the game is perfect. I have posted plenty of my own this is what I would like fixed threads. Sometimes I believe I am right and I am willing to admit I am sometimes wrong. I will admit to playing this game far to much... I haven't added /played times up lately but I have no doubt I have been in game for time totaling over 6 months easy... its sad. However I will admit I still don't always know exact mechanics of things. Things change all the time. People that care keep up... that doesn't make them exploiters. Any more then MJ was exploiting when he decided his game needed more defense and adjusted. Or when Wayne changed it up half way through his career and started bagging 2x as many assists as goals. Great players adjust... if your not at that level no one blames you.
To further my analogy and so you can understand why so many people are treating you in a perhaps an abrupt manner. If the NHL or NBA was sitting down to consider rule changes in there respective games... do you think they should place more weight in the insights from MJ and WG as opposed to insights from bench warmers in those games minor leagues. (not saying anyone in STO belongs in either category... just making a point here)