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Zen * Other Economic Revisions

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  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    This is not a lot. You had stated earlier, and multiple times, that using a bank as personal storage upsets you. For $23 bucks I could easily start a fleet and max of the bank spaces available just for my one guy!


    Yes, You could and im can tolerate that, but i hate it.


    If you are using fleets as a bank, and you are paying for it
    its no different then expanding the bank slots, and i'm ok with that.

    It should work out that you have your own tabs, and it saves you
    the 5-10$ Creation fee to just expand your tabs.

    Easy way to solve the problem
    with a warning first because sometime someone just decides to delete a toon and forgets they are in a fleet--done that myself in fact

    Fleet upkeep, Or making fleets uphold a specific requirement, and or principle is
    been something i am strongly believed in. However, Many people are very
    scared about such a mechanic that will desolve their fleet, so i am putting
    more time into this system/idea before i repost it on sto forums



    As it stands now, I believe there is a good solution to this problem.

    What i would like to do is set up an X amount of Active projects completed a month.
    If this is not met, the fleet will grant 7 weeks extension and place the fleet in "overdue" State.

    IF the fleet is unable to get out in this time, then the fleet will move to stage two, which we will call "Mothball". Once a fleet is in mothball, then it loses all star-base function, and fleet benefits other then a chat box. (so it loses star-base access, and fleet bank access and any other benefit that comes with the fleet base itself, like vendors etc)

    The fleet will stay in moth ball for an additional 90 days. To get out of mouth ball, the fleet will have to pay 200,000 Dilithium.

    If its not paid, the fleet will be desolved, deleted, etc.
  • kitsune424kitsune424 Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    What i would like to do is set up an X amount of Active projects completed a month.
    If this is not met, the fleet will grant 7 weeks extension and place the fleet in "overdue" State.

    Mah... that would backfire pretty badly I am a member, on my KDF fleet with only 3 actual active players, I have 3 toons in it but only 3 other people are in it
    We are the Borg. Existence as you know it is over. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Mah... that would backfire pretty badly I am a member, on my KDF fleet with only 3 actual active players, I have 3 toons in it but only 3 other people are in it
    We are the Borg. Existence as you know it is over. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.


    Chances are its a shared fleet bank.

    Which is what we need to get rid of.


    I had the idea of charging dilithium OR Ec per a person per a month.
    The applying the situation on here.

    The calculations i came up with, would leave each player up to 300 Dilithium per a day for the tax rate.

    But i think there may be a better way of doing it, like i said im working on it, but the weapons and tank revisions are my priority atm, because the game is getting a massive upgrade to these systems and pvp/pve end game soon.
  • onehappytapewormonehappytapeworm Member Posts: 106 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    IF the fleet is unable to get out in this time, then the fleet will move to stage two, which we will call "Mothball". Once a fleet is in mothball, then it loses all star-base function, and fleet benefits other then a chat box. (so it loses star-base access, and fleet bank access and any other benefit that comes with the fleet base itself, like vendors etc)

    Yikes! So me and my Army buddies make a small fleet. Suddenly we find ourselves out in the field and then shortly after we get deployed to help with a natural disaster. Now since we haven't finished a time gated project in time we cannot access our bank or other goodies until we pay more to do so? Or maybe not everyone gets called away but those left cannot complete them, despite trying?

    This has the potential to burn small fleets to the ground.
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Yes it does, As i said, that is the way i designed the system.

    However, I did not consider military personal based fleets, we may need
    to find some revisions to fix it.


    this is not the topic of this thread, we should look at returning to it.
  • kitsune424kitsune424 Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    Yes it does, As i said, that is the way i designed the system.

    However, I did not consider military personal based fleets, we may need
    to find some revisions to fix it.


    this is not the topic of this thread, we should look at returning to it.

    I disagree it IS a topic of this thread, before you can talk about implementing something you need to consider all veritables
    We are the Borg. Existence as you know it is over. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Your talking about oranges, im talking about apples, the dicussion is not what color the orange peel is, or how thick it is (Variables).

    I did not purpose those revisions in OP, it just came up

    Give me a few days, i will review the system and start a thread specifically about it in fleet holdings
    where the topic belongs.
  • onehappytapewormonehappytapeworm Member Posts: 106 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    this is not the topic of this thread, we should look at returning to it.

    Maybe not the exact topic, but still very close. You wanted to a Zen cost to the fleet system, so any exploration of how that would affect fleets is on topic :P

    But not just military. What if I have a couple members of my family that are into Trek and games and so we decide to build a Tapeworm family fleet base. Then my cousins Flatworm and Hookworm spend a couple weeks camping with their parents. My brother Inchworm gets an opportunity to attend some sort of camp. Now half my fleet is doing real life stuff and now we to spend more resources getting our stuff back, that we paid cash for.

    (On topic because you posed that to help stop me from having my private bank that I would be required to complete X number of projects to keep my access to stuff I paid Zen for.)
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    There is another option, You could start the upkeep requirements at specific levels.
    This would negate the other fleets, smaller fleets

    A good example is war craft III

    At 80/200 moderate upkeep starts
    At 160/200 Heavy upkeep starts.

    We could start a similar thing

    200/500 players upkeep moderate starts
    400/500 players upkeep heavy starts
  • onehappytapewormonehappytapeworm Member Posts: 106 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    So as a fleet admiral I would have to ever vigilant about who is logging on and who isn't. Because I do not want to lose my money I invested into my base (starting it and upgrading it) because people stopped donating because the fleet in general is moved onto other projects. Now I have to kick people who also might have put cash money into the game because they have not logged on in a while because life sneaked up and grabbed them so that I could avoid upkeep and then prevent my fleet from being shut down.

    I know people buy Dil to donate right now and that is fine. But I should not have to depend on others to play and donate in order to protect and keep benefiting from something I invested my cash into, which is what you are suggesting.

    I also believe adding Zen to the fleet mechanic would make it so that the entire game is no longer F2P. Because there is now a feature that you have to pay for.
  • kitsune424kitsune424 Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Comment deleted by Author
    We are the Borg. Existence as you know it is over. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,187 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I have not started playing yet. I have been waiting a week for my ISP to install my internet. However, when I do get the internet installed, it will be my first time playing STO. I am disabled, and have been since 2007, with no income. I have to live with my brother, and he helps take care of me.

    Therefore, I have no way to afford to pay for anything in the game. In fact, it wasn't till a month ago that I was able to get a computer that could handle the minimal requirements for the game. And the computer belongs to someone else, but they are letting me use it.

    What you are proposing will limit those in the same financial situation, for whatever reason they have, to not being able to get those things at all. (Probably permanently).

    I understand that you are upset when you think someone is cheating, when you feel that you work so hard to play by the rules. And, if what they are doing is considered by the developer to be cheating, I am for them putting a stop to it. However, if the developer makes players have to spend real money to stop players from cheating with this, what will they do when another exploit comes up? Charge money to keep people from doing that one also?

    The point I am trying to make is this: Anytime there is something that people can use to cheat in a game, or give them an unfair advantage, a lot (not all) will take advantage of it. Charging money as a deterrent will not stop it. It will only hurt those of us who cannot afford to pay.

    I love the fact that STO is F2P, otherwise I wouldn't be able to play it. Still, from what I gather by asking friends who play it, and reading threads on this forum, I am going to need to do a lot of grinding just to try to keep up with ones who pay. That in itself is going to be bad enough since there are times when my health will keep me from playing sometimes up to 2-3 weeks at a time. It will take me a loooooooong time to get some of the things another F2P player can get quickly.

    I hope that you understand my thinking on this matter.
    Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
  • ikonn#1068 ikonn Member Posts: 1,450 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Something I would like to see is a better solution for Exp being converted over to Expertise when your characters reach Lvl 50.

    Each of my chars have many millions of points that have no purpose and that I can't use. True, every now and then, I may change a skill out but I mean, really? Even using Expertise for Star Base projects... I have way more than I'll ever use. It simply collects and doesn't get used.

    We don't need that many points simply sitting around being wasted for doing daily DOFF missions. Maybe we shouldn't look at the OP suggestions specifically, but possibly look in a slightly different direction with a conversion system for Expertise to EC, Dil, or maybe even Marks.
    -AoP- Warrior's Blood (KDF Armada) / -AoP- Qu' raD qulbo'Degh / -AoP- Project Phoenix
    Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    What you are proposing will limit those in the same financial situation, for whatever reason they have, to not being able to get those things at all. (Probably permanently).


    I can sympathize with this, as many are in this condition, we can move to
    changing the fleet creation item to a dilithium charge. This will help people like
    you in your postion, and also help reduce spam of fleet creation.

    Its statements like this that help refine the purposed changes.
  • onehappytapewormonehappytapeworm Member Posts: 106 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    we can move to changing the fleet creation item to a dilithium charge.

    This is 100% acceptable to me as well. Because while you can purchase Dil, you never have too.
  • onehappytapewormonehappytapeworm Member Posts: 106 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    but possibly look in a slightly different direction with a conversion system for Expertise to EC, Dil, or maybe even Marks.

    This would rock! Well over 9 million EXP on my main toon.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    You OP... You're nuts.

    Add a cost to a single person, for a group thing? Thats just stupid.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • kheldor9kheldor9 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    its not ruining it.

    A lot of the cash shop items are going over to dilithium.
    You are just left with the things that are NOT NEEDED to F2P. They just
    help make things easier. There for, They are NOT needed.

    so optional things =zen

    If you cant convert dilithium to zen = more money.

    the rest are corrections to problems in the game, or improvements.

    What improvements?? Because your bank account has frivolous amounts of disposable income doesn't mean the rest of us have it. Your idea is beyond ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered. There are far too many things in the game that require Zen as it is. When I played in beta and on release, we could expand our inventory with regular Energy Credits, now we can't even do that. Horrible, atrocious idea.
  • kheldor9kheldor9 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    They dont need the ships, Let them pay for it.

    You are seriously one messed up, ignorant, selfish person. Seriously.
  • onehappytapewormonehappytapeworm Member Posts: 106 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    kheldor9 wrote: »
    You are seriously one messed up, ignorant, selfish person. Seriously.

    I would like to point out that I disagreed with nearly everything uhmari stated in the OP, but to simply call names and insult the guy does nothing to change his mind.
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    You OP... You're nuts.

    Add a cost to a single person, for a group thing? Thats just stupid.

    Yes because that group thing (Fleet bank) WAS NOT MENT FOR YOU TO BE
    USING IT FOR YOURSELF. Man up and pay for your bank expansions.

    Your abuse of game mechcanics, is only going to lead to the decline and collapse
    of the game
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    What improvements?? Because your bank account has frivolous amounts of disposable income doesn't mean the rest of us have it. Your idea is beyond ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered. There are far too many things in the game that require Zen as it is. When I played in beta and on release, we could expand our inventory with regular Energy Credits, now we can't even do that. Horrible, atrocious idea.

    lets just make everything free.

    By the way, are you going to pay the server bills? the staff paychecks, Expansion projects for the game?

    Sto is a Biz. Understand that , its objective is to make money.

    I strongly believe games these days have gone from quality, to just being about money
    Got STO has a LONG way to go to reach that level. Compared to other F2p shops
    sto's is literally empty.
  • unclejim1unclejim1 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    Zen can still be converted into Dilithium.

    Once above is done, Remove Dilith > To > Zen Conversion from the game.

    This simply won't work. You can't have an asymmetric exchange. You get conversion by people offering to sell one currency in exchange for the other. It can't go one way, because as soon as one person converts their Zen into dilithium, by definition the person on the other end of the exchange has converted their dilithium into Zen.

    The only way your desired state happens is for PWE to take over the exchange system and effectively pump dilithium into the economy, and increase the supply of dilithium outside of grinding. That by definition is inflation.

    The biggest problem you've got, though - and this is the part that completely ruins your plan to provide fleet benefits with Zen - is that at present, the exchange system allows the market of buyers and sellers to set a value for Zen based on time spent grinding for dilithium. You take that away, and the only underlying basis for Zen is the US dollar. That works well for Americans, or Germans, or Australians like me, because we're from economies with high per capita earnings. But if you're Venezuelan, or Indonesian? Congratulations, you've just killed regional fleets.
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,187 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I have some questions about the different types of currency I am having trouble finding. First, what are the different types of currency? I am under the impression they are dill, and Zen. And you can grind dill to get Zen, or you can use real money to get both. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Next, I was interested weather you can sell the ships. I have been told that you can sell your characters you get within the game, as long as they are not part of your crew. If the characters are part of your crew, they become binding. Is this the same with the ships, or can you resell them after you use them.

    I am also under the understanding that you can get every single ship by converting dill. Is this true? If so, is there anything at all you can't get, besides vet rewards, without needing to use real money?
    Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
  • ceekayzeroceekayzero Member Posts: 411 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    razar2380 wrote: »
    I have some questions about the different types of currency I am having trouble finding. First, what are the different types of currency? I am under the impression they are dill, and Zen. And you can grind dill to get Zen, or you can use real money to get both. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Next, I was interested weather you can sell the ships. I have been told that you can sell your characters you get within the game, as long as they are not part of your crew. If the characters are part of your crew, they become binding. Is this the same with the ships, or can you resell them after you use them.

    I am also under the understanding that you can get every single ship by converting dill. Is this true? If so, is there anything at all you can't get, besides vet rewards, without needing to use real money?

    The currencies in the game (excluding reputation marks and fleet credits):
    EC = Energy Credits. Obtained by vendoring loot and certain activities (doffing, Tour the Universe). Rough value is 1 million EC = $1.00
    Dil = Dilithium. Obtained via dilithium ore. Dilithium ore is available in a number of methods (STFs, dilithium mining, other PvE). You need to refine raw ore into refined dilithium. Rough value: 11,500 dil = $1.00
    Zen is the PWE cash currency, to allow you to buy things from the C-Store (including certain ships, modules, keys, etc.). Zen is 100 Zen = $1.00.
    There is a dilithium to zen/zen to dilithium exchange, which allows you to use real money to obtain dilithium. Likewise, you can obtain zen by grinding dilithium.
    Furthermore, you can buy certain items in the cash store and sell them on the exchange.

    Now, ship selling is possible. Certain ships obtainable from lockboxes or the Lobi Store come in special requisition boxes. These can be traded and sold on the exchange. Many go for high (out of print mirror universe ships) to astronomical (Jem Hadar Attack Ship) amounts of EC. Right now the rough value of a JHAS is $400.00. In order to sell a ship, it must REMAIN in it's box. Once you unpack it, then the ship is bound and can no longer be sold.

    You can use the dilithium exchange to grind your dilithium into zen so you can get the C-Store ships.

    If you join a fleet, you will have the option to obtain a fourth currency: fleet credits. These can be used to purchase various items from the fleet holdings (starbase, embassy, dilithium mine). You have to contribute to various projects (either straight dilithium, fleet marks, doffs, etc.) to get fleet credits. Once your starbase has a sufficiently high shipyard, you have access to more and more ships. Many fleets will allow you to temporarily join and make use of their higher tier shipyard...for a price.
  • uhmariuhmari Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    This simply won't work. You can't have an asymmetric exchange. You get conversion by people offering to sell one currency in exchange for the other. It can't go one way, because as soon as one person converts their Zen into dilithium, by definition the person on the other end of the exchange has converted their dilithium into Zen.

    Yes it can.
    You have the server do the exchange, not the player.

    You let the player by dilithium from the server, for its zen.
    Problem solved.

    You have injected money into the game, and dilithium into the economy.
  • clearbeardclearbeard Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    uhmari wrote: »
    This simply won't work. You can't have an asymmetric exchange. You get conversion by people offering to sell one currency in exchange for the other. It can't go one way, because as soon as one person converts their Zen into dilithium, by definition the person on the other end of the exchange has converted their dilithium into Zen.

    Yes it can.
    You have the server do the exchange, not the player.

    You let the player by dilithium from the server, for its zen.
    Problem solved.

    You have injected money into the game, and dilithium into the economy.

    Your assumption that removing the player set dilithium <--> zen exchange will result in more money for Cryptic is, quite simply, wrong. When I, as an active F2P player with lots of time on my hands, grind for dilithium to exchange for Zen SOMEONE is still buying that zen, and doing so in quantities well beyond what they plan on using personally. Remove that exchange and all of a sudden everyone who buys Zen with dilithium is no longer contributing to the real money portion of the game's economy and Cryptic's revenues will crash, guaranteed. Your suggestions are an excellent way to drive them out of business and shut down the game. If you want to see more tangible benefits to being an active Gold member (which you seem to) AND have more money flow to the devs, a better solution would be to simplify and streamline all of the game's currencies and make absolutely everything available with in-game trades including monthly memberships.

    Add memberships to the Zen store. Get rid of dilithium entirely to put the entire game on an Energy Credit standard. Then let Zen be purchased for EC on a player-to-player exchange and the economy will be more robust, less convoluted, and likely more profitable for the devs. That will achieve most of the goals you seem to want, without your top-down, imposed by fiat economic model destroying the game entirely.
  • drtassadardrtassadar Member Posts: 82 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    A friend of mine pointed out that this guy has like 10 threads all talking about proposed changes to the game, all terrible ideas. I have a feeling he's either a troll, or doesn't know this game very well, and is trying to make himself seem like a veteran.
    "That was not Mozart laughing, Father... that was God. That was God laughing at me, through that... through that obscene giggle."
  • ceekayzeroceekayzero Member Posts: 411 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    drtassadar wrote: »
    A friend of mine pointed out that this guy has like 10 threads all talking about proposed changes to the game, all terrible ideas. I have a feeling he's either a troll, or doesn't know this game very well, and is trying to make himself seem like a veteran.

    I suspect he doesn't know the game very well, given his comparisons to other MMOs.

    But I'll note (like in the "changes to weapons" thread), the responses from everyone else are some of the best written methods to explain how the game combat system works, and should be compiled into a FAQ.
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