only a lil point from here regarding premades:
i started to pvp and got kicked a lot. i came to the forums, "complained" a bit, got advice, tested a few things.... got better (without bootcamp... it's not necessary but i'm sure quite helpful. see below why ;D).
i then started to gather people who always delivered good, hard and almost always "equal" fights in my buddy-list, later on in our own chatchannel.
f.e. one of them is a bootcamp-graduate and started to pvp about one month before he first crossed my way (as for myself, i struggled about 3 months before i really started to improve). he's one of the evilst escort-pilots i ever fought ^^ ...
i now regularly team up with my mates, and there's more than one premade that have been stomped by our pugmade (everyone takes in what he wants to, no specialized team-builds).
sure... we also get stomped several times, thats the game i guess ...
so, the lil point is: it's not about premades or pugmades or simple pugs... it's always about the team. u can raise your chances to win a match just by pugging with people u know a bit and by using thingies that support your playstyle (for which bootcamp is a great place to get some knowledge which those could be) ...
all this posts about premades, premades... STO is the only game that make me feel guilty if i team with friends
Fair point , and one I thought about as well (when I tried to imagine the opposing POV) .
Thus on one hand there is your POV , as well as the "professional" PVP-ers "sword and shield" tactics that have worked in other games , while OTOTH there are those games where PUGs meet Premades where (as a Pugger) I either took off my shields/eng consoles to end it faster , or ... chose to AFK (/insert Cone of Shame).
Oh and once upon a time I loved to PVP in this game too .
My Excelsior rocked , and so did my BOP .
Now I can shield tank as an Engineer , with almost no pew pew to speak of and wonder what the hell is going on ... .
only a lil point from here regarding premades:
i started to pvp and got kicked a lot. i came to the forums, "complained" a bit, got advice, tested a few things.... got better (without bootcamp... it's not necessary but i'm sure quite helpful. see below why ;D).
i then started to gather people who always delivered good, hard and almost always "equal" fights in my buddy-list, later on in our own chatchannel.
f.e. one of them is a bootcamp-graduate and started to pvp about one month before he first crossed my way (as for myself, i struggled about 3 months before i really started to improve). he's one of the evilst escort-pilots i ever fought ^^ ...
i now regularly team up with my mates, and there's more than one premade that have been stomped by our pugmade (everyone takes in what he wants to, no specialized team-builds).
sure... we also get stomped several times, thats the game i guess ...
so, the lil point is: it's not about premades or pugmades or simple pugs... it's always about the team. u can raise your chances to win a match just by pugging with people u know a bit and by using thingies that support your playstyle (for which bootcamp is a great place to get some knowledge which those could be) ...
Some good points in there.
Although kinda dulled by the fact you are a member of 2 of the most well known PvP fleets and a third I've seen quite a few times in KvF queues.
Some good points in there.
Although kinda dulled by the fact you are a member of 2 of the most well known PvP fleets and a third I've seen quite a few times in KvF queues.
i was not from the start... ran a one-man-fleet since s6-launch for months (r.i.p. -w-a-s-t-e-s-i-d-e- ).
i was asked to join and got invited after i fought them in pugs (xcept klink fleet where i'm in due to a buddy... though fought them also before)...
nope, i don't want to say "yay, how good am i" (i know i'm not), i want to say: progress and enjoy the fruits .
also: if it's about the fleetsign on your back, just ask for an invite. all these fleets (any pvp fleet ^^) needs and wants pvp'ers or those who are interested! a lot of advice and nice people in there, i can tell ya .
i was not from the start... ran a one-man-fleet since s6-launch for months (r.i.p. -w-a-s-t-e-s-i-d-e- ).
i was asked to join and got invited after i fought them in pugs (xcept klink fleet where i'm in due to a buddy... though fought them also before)...
nope, i don't want to say "yay, how good am i" (i know i'm not), i want to say: progress and enjoy the fruits .
also: if it's about the fleetsign on your back, just ask for an invite. all these fleets (any pvp fleet ^^) needs and wants pvp'ers or those who are interested! a lot of advice and nice people in there, i can tell ya .
Not that this guy needs my endorsement in any way but here it is.
This guy was a long time que pugger fed side. And very good as well.
Attitudes like this, that why I don't need PvP and yeah I read the PvP bootcamp thing and well, it had the opposite effect on me. 'Cause basically it says:
Get Ship X or you screwed.
Get BOFFs X, Y, Z or your screwed
Get DOFFs X, Y, Z or your screwed
Use powers X, Y, Z or your screwed
and on and on and on.... so one dimensional...
so all this begging by the "pros" for more noob fodder doesn't sway me i the least.
hip63 :P
What attitude? The attitude of wanting to help people improve and not instantly die in pvp?
Nothing is set in stone, but when you're first starting out in pvp you will want to use a somewhat standardized build until you get the hang of things. After that, is when the fun starts and you can start tweaking and creating your own variations or completely new builds. PvP is anything but one-dimensional, which is one of the aspects that keeps players coming back for more.
i then started to gather people who always delivered good, hard and almost always "equal" fights in my buddy-list, later on in our own chatchannel.
......
i now regularly team up with my mates, and there's more than one premade that have been stomped by our pugmade (everyone takes in what he wants to, no specialized team-builds).
WHen you play with someone over time, get to know them and have anything like regular communication with them your group stopped being a pug a long time ago. Premades aren't limited to groups from one fleet using the standart 3 scis and 2 tacs setup. It also refers to groups of good/experienced players grouping together. Such a group has a huge, almost insurmountable advantage to the average pug made up of total strangers of varying skill.
Nothing is set in stone, but when you're first starting out in pvp you will want to use a somewhat standardized build until you get the hang of things. After that, is when the fun starts and you can start tweaking and creating your own variations or completely new builds. PvP is anything but one-dimensional, which is one of the aspects that keeps players coming back for more.
This is a really good point.
When you are first starting out and asking for advice the most vet players can really do is point you in the direction of tried and true builds that will "work" to a decent degree - even if they might not be the most unique or original.
There are really very few "one size fits all" builds. What PvP you are usually doing, who you PvP with, what your own personal style or ability might dictate are all things you will need to iron out on your own and customize for.
On the other hand, I can sympathize if someone told you specifically that X ship is the only ship you should use.
I have 4 different Tacs in 4 different ships at the moment, and the one that owns a JHAS isn't even flying it right now. So that's obviously not true.
WHen you play with someone over time, get to know them and have anything like regular communication with them your group stopped being a pug a long time ago. Premades aren't limited to groups from one fleet using the standart 3 scis and 2 tacs setup. It also refers to groups of good/experienced players grouping together. Such a group has a huge, almost insurmountable advantage to the average pug made up of total strangers of varying skill.
as thissler stated i come from pugs. also one word i used for what you just described: pugmade... i thought that's the word (beside "premade" for combined builds and just "pugs" for strangers fighting on the same team):
people who team up together before match, may know each other and fight together without the necessity of combined builds.
btw: there's not always a buddy to go with, so still i go in pugs too.
i think it's just logical that you'll probably "functioning" better together if you know each other.
how to get there? pugging and fighting/meeting same players by coincedence again and again over some time, which happens automatically if you pvp.
then may give/receive the props (f.e.:"i like ya playstyle, may let's team up next time"). oops... another buddy on my list, wanted to keep that dang-thing clean ;D....
there u are, finding yourself in your own pug-made ...
or just start in opvp/fleet channel....
and about the pugs: if the players are used to do some teamwork and are kinda good in what they do it can get very hard. i experienced some very nice matches with good groups that not knew each other before the match.
PvP needs everyone to stop complaining about things. Using purple mark X antiproton weapons, loading up on EPS consoles, and Mk X Covariant capx3 shields you aren't correct telling people their BO or gaming keyboard or ISO, or SS, or Romulan boffs are OP lame weak or OP.
PvP's entry barrier is really quite steep in its current formats. Even if you have or can afford all the tricked out gear, there's an entirely unrelated issue: The fact that the only format outside of Kerrat is the 5-man team format.
Which means now you need *5* people with the above. 5 people with synchronized schedules who can afford to spend 40+ hours a week drilling to function as a synchronized unit. This is not an easy thing to come by in generation ADHD, where people have the attention spans of a narcoleptic ferret.
Or, you know, in an era where a lot of people are working two or more jobs for the salary of one . . . since, you know, this isn't the late 1990s/early 2000s anymore where you could just walk down the street and have another job in most cities.
Who the hell can afford 40+ hours in a video game, still make a real living, and have a family?
Your so called ADHD generation has nothing to do with it. Most of them are over on Xbox and PS to begin with, not playing an MMO. You'd also find very few of them into Star Trek. That's the stuff their parents were into, especially since it hasn't had a decent show on TV in a while, and the current film series is unrelated to this game.
I have kids ranging from 3 years old to 20 years old. I will tell you, of all their friends I have met and talked to, many more show an interest in Star Wars than Star Trek.
Skill level of already existing "Player Killers". This is what makes it difficult for existing players to join. Now I define a Player Killer as a person who has either been Pewed enough that they deciphered the build that was killing them. Or they Pewed others enough to get good at it. This isn't something we can make go away, and no PvP initiative will help. Kudos to those who tried to help with PvP Boot Camp, but lets face it, a full year of instruction will not make up anything against a player that has 1+ years of pewing in Ker'rat with an active intrest in getting better. Now I may not be the best, but contrary to the norm, I can smash the new PvPers as well as the next guy. It is kinda easy to pick them out too, since they mainly do not have a fleet or are in a fleet I know to be somewhat soft in PvP.
The only solution I can find is to bring a large number of players into PvP and then create a seperate Queue for Elite PvP, and Basic PvP. That way the players will not be going against people like me (as stated above I am not legendary... just legendarily annoying ) and others who know how to Spike/Tank. Another zone in Kerrat for beginners would help too. Like you get missions, say only 20 of that mission to go into that Ker'rat. That way players will be going against similar skill and gear. Will any of this happen? Nope.
Unfotunately the PvE community seems to think there is no skill bridge to cross in terms of PvE vs PvP either. This keeps a lot of the PvE people from having interest since they think that if they can kill Donatra in a team of 5, they are as good as it gets. Believe me, I have been chewed out by PvE players for what they percieve as my failure, I then offer to prove my skill in a 1v1... and rage/accusation of hax follow. PvP reputation would help, but a lot of builds in PvE don't even use Tactical Team. I didn't have to equip it until a certain BOP showed me how pitiful my Galaxy-X really was. That was 3 months in !!!
I could go on forever, but this is the heart of the issue I can see form the perspective of Ker'rat, which is ironically where most go to get a PvP experience.
For a clarification, the worst arguement I ran accross is the "they get blowed up so they do not want to go pew, when they go boom in miliseconds". I took a poetic liscense to it, but it is kinda accurate, but also shows that the player in question has no interest in PvP. This arguement is used as an excuse all too often, some PvE players will attempt PvP and get wrecked by somebody like me. Hell my B'rel Spike build is somewhat deadly, I kill 9/10 tries. Here recently however (as in the past few months), I try to hunt those neer my spawn, which is MUCH easyer seing as those who camp a spawn are usualy those of lower skill. I do try to make them rage, as they are going 12v1 agaisnt me and I kill one of them, then making him not wish to do it ever again is in my best interest. (This is part of the problem) And nothing in game seems to stop me from going pew pew on these spawn campers, fix the spawn and they won't die. But that has been asked for since I started playing. So it is not going to happen clearly.
Comments
like in every mmo, not only STO
i started to pvp and got kicked a lot. i came to the forums, "complained" a bit, got advice, tested a few things.... got better (without bootcamp... it's not necessary but i'm sure quite helpful. see below why ;D).
i then started to gather people who always delivered good, hard and almost always "equal" fights in my buddy-list, later on in our own chatchannel.
f.e. one of them is a bootcamp-graduate and started to pvp about one month before he first crossed my way (as for myself, i struggled about 3 months before i really started to improve). he's one of the evilst escort-pilots i ever fought ^^
i now regularly team up with my mates, and there's more than one premade that have been stomped by our pugmade (everyone takes in what he wants to, no specialized team-builds).
sure... we also get stomped several times, thats the game i guess
so, the lil point is: it's not about premades or pugmades or simple pugs... it's always about the team. u can raise your chances to win a match just by pugging with people u know a bit and by using thingies that support your playstyle (for which bootcamp is a great place to get some knowledge which those could be)
Fair point , and one I thought about as well (when I tried to imagine the opposing POV) .
Thus on one hand there is your POV , as well as the "professional" PVP-ers "sword and shield" tactics that have worked in other games , while OTOTH there are those games where PUGs meet Premades where (as a Pugger) I either took off my shields/eng consoles to end it faster , or ... chose to AFK (/insert Cone of Shame).
Oh and once upon a time I loved to PVP in this game too .
My Excelsior rocked , and so did my BOP .
Now I can shield tank as an Engineer , with almost no pew pew to speak of and wonder what the hell is going on ... .
Some good points in there.
Although kinda dulled by the fact you are a member of 2 of the most well known PvP fleets and a third I've seen quite a few times in KvF queues.
i was not from the start... ran a one-man-fleet since s6-launch for months (r.i.p. -w-a-s-t-e-s-i-d-e-
i was asked to join and got invited after i fought them in pugs (xcept klink fleet where i'm in due to a buddy... though fought them also before)...
nope, i don't want to say "yay, how good am i" (i know i'm not), i want to say: progress and enjoy the fruits
also: if it's about the fleetsign on your back, just ask for an invite. all these fleets (any pvp fleet ^^) needs and wants pvp'ers or those who are interested! a lot of advice and nice people in there, i can tell ya
Not that this guy needs my endorsement in any way but here it is.
This guy was a long time que pugger fed side. And very good as well.
So there.
Nothing is set in stone, but when you're first starting out in pvp you will want to use a somewhat standardized build until you get the hang of things. After that, is when the fun starts and you can start tweaking and creating your own variations or completely new builds. PvP is anything but one-dimensional, which is one of the aspects that keeps players coming back for more.
@DevolvedOne
WHen you play with someone over time, get to know them and have anything like regular communication with them your group stopped being a pug a long time ago. Premades aren't limited to groups from one fleet using the standart 3 scis and 2 tacs setup. It also refers to groups of good/experienced players grouping together. Such a group has a huge, almost insurmountable advantage to the average pug made up of total strangers of varying skill.
This is a really good point.
When you are first starting out and asking for advice the most vet players can really do is point you in the direction of tried and true builds that will "work" to a decent degree - even if they might not be the most unique or original.
There are really very few "one size fits all" builds. What PvP you are usually doing, who you PvP with, what your own personal style or ability might dictate are all things you will need to iron out on your own and customize for.
On the other hand, I can sympathize if someone told you specifically that X ship is the only ship you should use.
I have 4 different Tacs in 4 different ships at the moment, and the one that owns a JHAS isn't even flying it right now. So that's obviously not true.
...thx 4 the props i guess
as thissler stated i come from pugs. also one word i used for what you just described: pugmade... i thought that's the word (beside "premade" for combined builds and just "pugs" for strangers fighting on the same team):
people who team up together before match, may know each other and fight together without the necessity of combined builds.
btw: there's not always a buddy to go with, so still i go in pugs too.
i think it's just logical that you'll probably "functioning" better together if you know each other.
how to get there? pugging and fighting/meeting same players by coincedence again and again over some time, which happens automatically if you pvp.
then may give/receive the props (f.e.:"i like ya playstyle, may let's team up next time"). oops... another buddy on my list, wanted to keep that dang-thing clean ;D....
there u are, finding yourself in your own pug-made
or just start in opvp/fleet channel....
and about the pugs: if the players are used to do some teamwork and are kinda good in what they do it can get very hard. i experienced some very nice matches with good groups that not knew each other before the match.
I'm an old pvper from way back, and I remembered in Shadowbane on my priest stacking crazy resists.
It's a fun game once you can survive the initial alpha...
Or, you know, in an era where a lot of people are working two or more jobs for the salary of one . . . since, you know, this isn't the late 1990s/early 2000s anymore where you could just walk down the street and have another job in most cities.
Who the hell can afford 40+ hours in a video game, still make a real living, and have a family?
Your so called ADHD generation has nothing to do with it. Most of them are over on Xbox and PS to begin with, not playing an MMO. You'd also find very few of them into Star Trek. That's the stuff their parents were into, especially since it hasn't had a decent show on TV in a while, and the current film series is unrelated to this game.
I have kids ranging from 3 years old to 20 years old. I will tell you, of all their friends I have met and talked to, many more show an interest in Star Wars than Star Trek.
Skill level of already existing "Player Killers". This is what makes it difficult for existing players to join. Now I define a Player Killer as a person who has either been Pewed enough that they deciphered the build that was killing them. Or they Pewed others enough to get good at it. This isn't something we can make go away, and no PvP initiative will help. Kudos to those who tried to help with PvP Boot Camp, but lets face it, a full year of instruction will not make up anything against a player that has 1+ years of pewing in Ker'rat with an active intrest in getting better. Now I may not be the best, but contrary to the norm, I can smash the new PvPers as well as the next guy. It is kinda easy to pick them out too, since they mainly do not have a fleet or are in a fleet I know to be somewhat soft in PvP.
The only solution I can find is to bring a large number of players into PvP and then create a seperate Queue for Elite PvP, and Basic PvP. That way the players will not be going against people like me (as stated above I am not legendary... just legendarily annoying
Unfotunately the PvE community seems to think there is no skill bridge to cross in terms of PvE vs PvP either. This keeps a lot of the PvE people from having interest since they think that if they can kill Donatra in a team of 5, they are as good as it gets. Believe me, I have been chewed out by PvE players for what they percieve as my failure, I then offer to prove my skill in a 1v1... and rage/accusation of hax follow. PvP reputation would help, but a lot of builds in PvE don't even use Tactical Team. I didn't have to equip it until a certain BOP showed me how pitiful my Galaxy-X really was. That was 3 months in
I could go on forever, but this is the heart of the issue I can see form the perspective of Ker'rat, which is ironically where most go to get a PvP experience.