So... it's been a while since I've seen the price of zen get this low. We're almost to the point that two rich dilithium claims would buy a lockbox key.
Where's the floor?
The Floor? THat would be 25:1.
Since the market locks at that amount and cannot get any lower.
Where will the players LET the market bottom out at? Low 80's.
Any player driven market is good and bad. At times you get rich off it, and at times you loose your rear. That is the nature of it. Look at the EC. I can't sell nothing on it for a decent price. So most of my loot goes to the Vendor. Since at times I actually get a higher price. So even that is crashed. Unless you come across something really valuable. Then its too much to pay for if you don't have that kind of EC in the bank. I bought several things out of the Dil store due to this. I found it was easier to farm the Dil and get the item than to earn EC for it. The Zen market is the same.
The other thing is the cut throats. That always plague these markets. Someone is always willing to sell it lower to get theirs to sell faster. By the time you add more cut throats. Then the value is reduced to pennies.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Any player driven market is good and bad. At times you get rich off it, and at times you loose your rear. That is the nature of it. Look at the EC. I can't sell nothing on it for a decent price. So most of my loot goes to the Vendor. Since at times I actually get a higher price. So even that is crashed. Unless you come across something really valuable. Then its too much to pay for if you don't have that kind of EC in the bank. I bought several things out of the Dil store due to this. I found it was easier to farm the Dil and get the item than to earn EC for it. The Zen market is the same.
The other thing is the cut throats. That always plague these markets. Someone is always willing to sell it lower to get theirs to sell faster. By the time you add more cut throats. Then the value is reduced to pennies.
The exchange crashed due to allot of people dumping old unused gear when LOR was released to fund the new Romulan.
Now the zen/dilithium exchange is doing the same exact thing, people are dumping zen onto the market to get dilithium to fund the new Romulan.
Both markets work with cut throats. Zen is the product on one exchange and cut throats selling want dilithium and they want it now so they will sell for 1 dilithium per zen less than everyone else. Zen prices drop for this reason only and not because of how much dilithium is available. when theres allot of dilithium zen prices go up because they know more are going to be willing to pay the higher prices.
For the other exchange, prices are more to do with demand of the item, A purple tac console sells better than a purple cannon. Then ontop of that you have people wanting to sell now and drops the price 5 ec less than the lowest and that will temporaraly lower the price but those cutthroats can be good for normal sellars if they under cut by a large enough amount. buy it and put it up with your own at a more reasonable price. This market is also more stable because most of the items are from random drops and most people put it up at a higher price than the lowest.
Definatly a buyers market now.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Both markets work with cut throats. Zen is the product on one exchange and cut throats selling want dilithium and they want it now so they will sell for 1 dilithium per zen less than everyone else. Zen prices drop for this reason only and not because of how much dilithium is available. when theres allot of dilithium zen prices go up because they know more are going to be willing to pay the higher prices.
People price lower because they're willing to take less to get it now, not because they're "cut-throat." You're free to hold onto your zen/dil and wait until a more profitable time to sell.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
People price lower because they're willing to take less to get it now, not because they're "cut-throat." You're free to hold onto your zen/dil and wait until a more profitable time to sell.
They are cut-throats, a cut-throat salesman is one who is willing to make a sale by less than favourable means in order to attract more customers and therefore sell more and quicker than his competitors; i.e. to "cut their financial throats".
speculation is the problem
Zen bought off the exchange should be lastingly bound to account
I actually like the idea of Speculation, it doesn't mean you are evil or anything, it just means you have the lobes for business, and you know how to be patient, (I have been thinking of making a line graph of the price of Zen so you know when to buy, and when to sell.) Believe it or not, I am completely fine with the exchange the way it is, if prices get too high, people will be less likely to buy Zen on the Exchange and more likely to sell, and since everyone wants their zen to be bought, they will sell it at acceptable prices, soon, there will be people selling their Zen like crazy, making the dil, and since there are more Zen on the market, they will each be worth less, so the price will go down, and then people start gobbling them up to prepare for the next big upswing, which will mean less ZEN on the exchange, making each of them more valuable, making the price go up, and the cycle continues, this is TRUE free-market economics. There will be booms and busts, highs and lows, and this is just how the market works. If it is fixed, then you will be in the exact situation Vamank was talking about, since there is no way to make a profit, why try?
No one will try to sell ZEN in the first place, because they can't look forward to buying any more.
And this is the part where Star trek online and real-world economics meet, if you set a fixed price, or prevent the buyers from selling like you are saying, where will all the new ZEN come from?
Everyone will keep buying, but you don't think of the producers in this case, there will be a ZEN shortage, and it will force the Devs into action, either buying it, and doling back out to the masses, (In which case you have a whole new problem) or you switch back to the free market, allowing people to pursue a profit and allowing the market to balance itself.
(A brief Economics lesson in STO, by your friend, Destroyer831624)
They are cut-throats, a cut-throat salesman is one who is willing to make a sale by less than favourable means in order to attract more customers and therefore sell more and quicker than his competitors; i.e. to "cut their financial throats".
How is selling something cheaper "less than favorable means?" Why are we even concerned about competitors in the first place? The person who ends up buying the item and using it wins the most by paying less. Why do you hate the customer?
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Its not really crashed yet. As the other said it got down to 85. Personally I saw it at 87. When I could log on. However I noticed it was under 120 over the weekend. Hovering around the 118-116 mark.
This is good news for me. Cause I will be coming back again to buy more. I bought 2 ships a costume, and other goodies off the last time it was low. I still need ships, and other stuff. So this is good news for me.
Isn't this a good thing for the dilithium market? That means that dilithium has a higher dollar value.
My family of toons is still living off the pile of Dil I got when I sold Zen at 320 dil per. And frugal spending. Those were the days. I havnt put zen into the market since. Im still spoiled thinking I shouldnt sell for less than 300, as its still REAL money for fake digital items.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
I didn't say there was anything wrong with asking. Ask away, more power to you. However, you were asking for two different things: a set ratio, meaning a price that goes no lower or higher, and that the ratio could go higher, therefore not making it a set ratio. It's confusing.
Also, I'm not sure PWE is going to take anyone seriously with a screen name like bitemepwe.
So, its crashed again has it. Not surprising as with the new LOR update, I am sure lots of peeps offloaded their Dilithium for zen so they could buy the new ships...
However, even given that fact, I believe you're not allowed to undercut the market value of an item by a large margin.
Otherwise your company gets arrested.
Whatthe...? That's completely, utterly incorrect.
But that is what is going on here.
The market value of Dilithium (or in Champions Online Questionite) is 150 per C-point.
Selling your Dil for below that is racketeering.
Aside from the fact that you're starting from a completely incorrect premise, you're also assuming that the value of Dilithium, Questionite and Astral Diamonds (the NW equivalent) are or should be equivalent.
There's no reason for them to be, which is good, because they're not.
I think that is what bitemepwe is getting at.
If so, he's completely wrong.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
As I have always said it needs to be locked at a fixed rate
It's like the stock market. Meaning it's controlled by the whim and emotion of those who invest in the system.
I'm going to see how far the zen rate drops, buy zen up when it's dirt cheap, then sell for dilithium when it gets expensive again. That was I can afford the omega MKXII set....
You can undercut the price all you want, it will make you go out of business at a certain point.
If companies got 'arrested' for selling things cheaply, Wal Mart would be in jail.
The market value of dil is... exactly what the market settles on. It's a very efficient market, it has both buy and sell bids.
If someone offers to sell zen for below the market price, it will be bought up automatically by people who have buy bids out. And likely as not, those people will reprice it and put it back on the exchange at the market price, and profit the same amount that the cheap-seller lost by mispricing.
The dil exchange doesn't allow you to sell dil or Zen below the current price.
If you wanted to buy 1 Zen for 150 dil (while it's at about 115 now), the system will only take 115 dil from you.
If you wanted to sell 1 Zen for only 50 dil (same supposed 115 dil buy/114 sell), the system will again give you the curently available 114 dil.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
What does duplicate accounts have to do with it?
CO is operating under the same F2P model as STO.
Therefore, you can have as many accounts as you want!
And they also have their own version of Dilithium stores, which they need to use as much as we do in STO.
Also add to that the high end items (vehicles) are comparable in cost to a Fleet Special Project and they're per character!
Also, they do not have Doffing or STFs to earn their Questionite.
And add to that it's more tedious to acquire Questionite then it is Dil.
Granted, they don't have fleet bases.
But still, this should serve as a baseline indication that there should not be a discrepancy between the values, given that the resources serve an equal function in both games.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
Also, they do not have Doffing or STFs to earn their Questionite.
And add to that it's more tedious to acquire Questionite then it is Dil.
Granted, they don't have fleet bases.
But still, this should serve as a baseline indication that there should not be a discrepancy between the values, given that the resources serve an equal function in both games.
You point out three ways in which the two games' economies aren't comparable, and then say they should be.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Because in the ways that matter, they are the same.
You use them to buy ingame gear and unlocks.
Allow me to be brutally honest.
The reason players want the prices to be low is a selfish one, so they can benefit to the maximum by inconveniencing someone else.
Example, my Fleet has a major upgrade running that I could have filled weeks ago if the price was around the 150 rate.
But because I know it's going to cost me twice as much as it should, I've refused to fill the assignment!
And pretty much every assignment involving Dilithium is stalling out, because no-one in the Fleet has the ability to fill it!
In the end though, it's the Dil sellers who are losing here.
You can get a lot of sales with a fair price or you can get minimal sales with an unfair one.
Your choice.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Because in the ways that matter, they are the same.
You use them to buy ingame gear and unlocks.
Allow me to be brutally honest.
The reason players want the prices to be low is a selfish one, so they can benefit to the maximum by inconveniencing someone else.
Example, my Fleet has a major upgrade running that I could have filled weeks ago if the price was around the 150 rate.
But because I know it's going to cost me twice as much as it should, I've refused to fill the assignment!
And pretty much every assignment involving Dilithium is stalling out, because no-one in the Fleet has the ability to fill it!
In the end though, it's the Dil sellers who are losing here.
You can get a lot of sales with a fair price or you can get minimal sales with an unfair one.
Your choice.
Don't worry the price will probably rise to 130 pretty soon:
1) with the 3 pack Scimitar coming out
2) with the New Mining Holding that reduces dilithium costs + adds more dilithium grinding missions.
3) The Zen sale ends
4) the big fleets are just about finishing off tier 5
Because in the ways that matter, they are the same.
You use them to buy ingame gear and unlocks.
Allow me to be brutally honest.
The reason players want the prices to be low is a selfish one, so they can benefit to the maximum by inconveniencing someone else.
Complete failure of logic followed by ad hominem attack.
In the end though, it's the Dil sellers who are losing here.
You can get a lot of sales with a fair price or you can get minimal sales with an unfair one.
You really have no clue how markets work, do you. The price is set by the sellers and buyers. Sellers wouldn't benefit from a lower price because they're not interested in selling at that price.
Here's a last attempt at rationality.
Today, the Euro is at $1.33 to 1 Euro.
I want you to sell me Euros at $1.00 to 1 Euro. I promise you, you'll sell a ton more than you will at the patently unfair rate of $1.33 to 1 Euro. The currencies should trade at 1:1 because people on both sides of the Atlantic use them to pay for the same things.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
As a long time player of CO, at least until about last year, I can tell you why. There is no worthwhile Dil sinks in that game.
Can you imagine how Dil would be if there were no sinks constantly coming out in the way of shinies? The CO questionite exchange has been higher than that, but people have simply stopped farming Questionite, why bother they already got anything they might want a long time ago and all the stuff coming out if for vehicles, a failed attempt to replicate the ship centric STO ecnomic model because its a game about superheroes, not their rides.
i can't help but find amusing that people are complaning about others buying zen and selling at a low price, blame them, not the game, if thats how they wish to spend their money, its their money, and cryptic benefits from letting this go on too, and f2p players get to buy stuff from z-store without paying ridiculous ammount of dil.
free market, isn't that what americans like so much?
i can't help but find amusing that people are complaning about others buying zen and selling at a low price, blame them, not the game, if thats how they wish to spend their money, its their money, and cryptic benefits from letting this go on too, and f2p players get to buy stuff from z-store without paying ridiculous ammount of dil.
free market, isn't that what americans like so much?
Comments
i think on neverwinter it's still about 400 ad ((dil)) per 1 zen and thats insane
The Floor? THat would be 25:1.
Since the market locks at that amount and cannot get any lower.
Where will the players LET the market bottom out at? Low 80's.
The other thing is the cut throats. That always plague these markets. Someone is always willing to sell it lower to get theirs to sell faster. By the time you add more cut throats. Then the value is reduced to pennies.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
The exchange crashed due to allot of people dumping old unused gear when LOR was released to fund the new Romulan.
Now the zen/dilithium exchange is doing the same exact thing, people are dumping zen onto the market to get dilithium to fund the new Romulan.
Both markets work with cut throats. Zen is the product on one exchange and cut throats selling want dilithium and they want it now so they will sell for 1 dilithium per zen less than everyone else. Zen prices drop for this reason only and not because of how much dilithium is available. when theres allot of dilithium zen prices go up because they know more are going to be willing to pay the higher prices.
For the other exchange, prices are more to do with demand of the item, A purple tac console sells better than a purple cannon. Then ontop of that you have people wanting to sell now and drops the price 5 ec less than the lowest and that will temporaraly lower the price but those cutthroats can be good for normal sellars if they under cut by a large enough amount. buy it and put it up with your own at a more reasonable price. This market is also more stable because most of the items are from random drops and most people put it up at a higher price than the lowest.
Definatly a buyers market now.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
They are cut-throats, a cut-throat salesman is one who is willing to make a sale by less than favourable means in order to attract more customers and therefore sell more and quicker than his competitors; i.e. to "cut their financial throats".
*The more you know
I actually like the idea of Speculation, it doesn't mean you are evil or anything, it just means you have the lobes for business, and you know how to be patient, (I have been thinking of making a line graph of the price of Zen so you know when to buy, and when to sell.) Believe it or not, I am completely fine with the exchange the way it is, if prices get too high, people will be less likely to buy Zen on the Exchange and more likely to sell, and since everyone wants their zen to be bought, they will sell it at acceptable prices, soon, there will be people selling their Zen like crazy, making the dil, and since there are more Zen on the market, they will each be worth less, so the price will go down, and then people start gobbling them up to prepare for the next big upswing, which will mean less ZEN on the exchange, making each of them more valuable, making the price go up, and the cycle continues, this is TRUE free-market economics. There will be booms and busts, highs and lows, and this is just how the market works. If it is fixed, then you will be in the exact situation Vamank was talking about, since there is no way to make a profit, why try?
No one will try to sell ZEN in the first place, because they can't look forward to buying any more.
And this is the part where Star trek online and real-world economics meet, if you set a fixed price, or prevent the buyers from selling like you are saying, where will all the new ZEN come from?
Everyone will keep buying, but you don't think of the producers in this case, there will be a ZEN shortage, and it will force the Devs into action, either buying it, and doling back out to the masses, (In which case you have a whole new problem) or you switch back to the free market, allowing people to pursue a profit and allowing the market to balance itself.
(A brief Economics lesson in STO, by your friend, Destroyer831624)
There is never anything wrong with asking.
R.I.P
Isn't this a good thing for the dilithium market? That means that dilithium has a higher dollar value.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
I didn't say there was anything wrong with asking. Ask away, more power to you. However, you were asking for two different things: a set ratio, meaning a price that goes no lower or higher, and that the ratio could go higher, therefore not making it a set ratio. It's confusing.
Also, I'm not sure PWE is going to take anyone seriously with a screen name like bitemepwe.
However, even given that fact, I believe you're not allowed to undercut the market value of an item by a large margin.
Otherwise your company gets arrested.
But that is what is going on here.
The market value of Dilithium (or in Champions Online Questionite) is 150 per C-point.
Selling your Dil for below that is racketeering.
So therefore, the limit should be capped at that minimum to prevent people artificially lowering the value.
Now, if you wanted to raise the number, say to 160, 175 or 200, that would be acceptible.
I think that is what bitemepwe is getting at.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Whatthe...? That's completely, utterly incorrect.
Aside from the fact that you're starting from a completely incorrect premise, you're also assuming that the value of Dilithium, Questionite and Astral Diamonds (the NW equivalent) are or should be equivalent.
There's no reason for them to be, which is good, because they're not.
If so, he's completely wrong.
It's like the stock market. Meaning it's controlled by the whim and emotion of those who invest in the system.
I'm going to see how far the zen rate drops, buy zen up when it's dirt cheap, then sell for dilithium when it gets expensive again. That was I can afford the omega MKXII set....
The dil exchange doesn't allow you to sell dil or Zen below the current price.
If you wanted to buy 1 Zen for 150 dil (while it's at about 115 now), the system will only take 115 dil from you.
If you wanted to sell 1 Zen for only 50 dil (same supposed 115 dil buy/114 sell), the system will again give you the curently available 114 dil.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
That's wrong, the floor is 25. The ceiling is 500 though.
Questionite Exchange
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
What does duplicate accounts have to do with it?
CO is operating under the same F2P model as STO.
Therefore, you can have as many accounts as you want!
And they also have their own version of Dilithium stores, which they need to use as much as we do in STO.
Also add to that the high end items (vehicles) are comparable in cost to a Fleet Special Project and they're per character!
Also, they do not have Doffing or STFs to earn their Questionite.
And add to that it's more tedious to acquire Questionite then it is Dil.
Granted, they don't have fleet bases.
But still, this should serve as a baseline indication that there should not be a discrepancy between the values, given that the resources serve an equal function in both games.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
You point out three ways in which the two games' economies aren't comparable, and then say they should be.
You use them to buy ingame gear and unlocks.
Allow me to be brutally honest.
The reason players want the prices to be low is a selfish one, so they can benefit to the maximum by inconveniencing someone else.
Example, my Fleet has a major upgrade running that I could have filled weeks ago if the price was around the 150 rate.
But because I know it's going to cost me twice as much as it should, I've refused to fill the assignment!
And pretty much every assignment involving Dilithium is stalling out, because no-one in the Fleet has the ability to fill it!
In the end though, it's the Dil sellers who are losing here.
You can get a lot of sales with a fair price or you can get minimal sales with an unfair one.
Your choice.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Don't worry the price will probably rise to 130 pretty soon:
1) with the 3 pack Scimitar coming out
2) with the New Mining Holding that reduces dilithium costs + adds more dilithium grinding missions.
3) The Zen sale ends
4) the big fleets are just about finishing off tier 5
Complete failure of logic followed by ad hominem attack.
You really have no clue how markets work, do you. The price is set by the sellers and buyers. Sellers wouldn't benefit from a lower price because they're not interested in selling at that price.
Here's a last attempt at rationality.
Today, the Euro is at $1.33 to 1 Euro.
I want you to sell me Euros at $1.00 to 1 Euro. I promise you, you'll sell a ton more than you will at the patently unfair rate of $1.33 to 1 Euro. The currencies should trade at 1:1 because people on both sides of the Atlantic use them to pay for the same things.
There will always be speculation, if the zen currency is static then you would just see more radical price shifts on the exchange.
As a long time player of CO, at least until about last year, I can tell you why. There is no worthwhile Dil sinks in that game.
Can you imagine how Dil would be if there were no sinks constantly coming out in the way of shinies? The CO questionite exchange has been higher than that, but people have simply stopped farming Questionite, why bother they already got anything they might want a long time ago and all the stuff coming out if for vehicles, a failed attempt to replicate the ship centric STO ecnomic model because its a game about superheroes, not their rides.
free market, isn't that what americans like so much?
I'm a Socialist.