Help upgrading an Advanced Escort

georgedp

Hi guys,
since the server is down I made my ship's build to ask for your opinion about some upgrades I m thinking of doing.
Any other tips or suggestions also welcomed

http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=zeusd1_0

(the engine is a Jem Hadar Combat Impulse Mk XI, but the skill planer wouldn't show it)

I m mostly PvEing (only tried PvP 2 times and I'll never touch PvP button again :rolleyes:) and right now i dont die often

So, I'm gathering marks to install a MACO set, a KCB and an assimilated console and have some questions about them.

1. Since I cant spent enough time each day and collect mark rather slowly, which should I install first? The console, the beam or the shield?

2. Should I go for the Mk XII set or take the Mk XI and sell the neural processors for dil? (couldnt find the stats for Mk XI so dont know the differences)

3. the set must be the same Mk XI or Mk XII for the additional bonus to work? or can I have the Mk XII shield with Mk XI engine and deflector?

4. will I have the borg set bonus with only the KCB and the console? or i have to put their engine too?

5. which console should I replace with the assimilated one? ( I m between shield emitter amplifier and tetraburnium armor)

6. should I also try the omega torpedos? will I have a bonus with the above compilation?

7. will I have power problem when I change the jem hadar engine and loose the weapons power bonus? (i m right now working with: wpn 125/100 sld 74/50 eng 46/25 aux 41/25)

Sorry for asking that many questions and thanks in advance for your time

Unknown

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jadensecura

Overall looks pretty good, there are a couple things to think about on your current build though. First, you should replace that Dual Cannon with a DHC when you can, that'll help your DPS a bit, and you should probably drop the Tyken's Rift, either for an Energy Siphon or for a second copy of one of the heals. The other thing is the Aux to Batt, if you're using it successfully to give your EPtS 100% uptime, great, if not you might want to think about dropping AtB for a second EPtS. For most PvE it's your shields that keep you alive, anything that gets through to your hull will kill you very rapidly, so you need to make sure your shields are strong. Now, to your questions:

1. Go for the shield, then console. The extra plasma resist on the MACO shield is huge for STFs.

2. Mk XI and Mk XII are very close in performance, I think the difference is something under 5% on just a few of the stats. That said, if you're going to want the XII eventually it might make the most sense to just get it first rather than waste so many resources. (Also think about just grabbing the X shield, it'll be a nice boost and not too terribly expensive.)

3. Set items have to be the same Mk to provide the set bonus.

4. The borg engine is not in the same set with the KCB and console, the engine goes with the deflector and shield while the other 2 go with the Omega torpedo to make their own set. KCB and console will provide the 2 piece bonus from their set, the Omega Weapon Amplifier proc, which is pretty nice.

5. Definitely replace the Tetraburnium. Actually I'd drop the Neutronium as well, move the Zero Point in there, and get 2 Emitter Arrays for that slot and your Shield Emitter Amplifier, since those will boost both healing and regen.

6. You can try out the Omega torpedo, opinions are mixed but I kind of like it. And it does give a bonus with the KCB and console which makes you slightly tougher.

7. You shouldn't have any significant power problems, the bonus from the engine is small, and the Assimilated Module gives +5 weapons power anyway.

insanesenator

jadensecura wrote: »

First, you should replace that Dual Cannon with a DHC when you can, that'll help your DPS a bit,

I have a question on this part... a long time ago, I read on the forums that the math actually works out better to have one dual cannon, 2 DHC rather than 3 DHC because of the slightly weaker power drain when all 3 are firing, especially during rapid fire. Granted, the OP has Mk X vs XI, but I would venture its worth looking into.

jadensecura

insanesenator wrote: »

I have a question on this part... a long time ago, I read on the forums that the math actually works out better to have one dual cannon, 2 DHC rather than 3 DHC because of the slightly weaker power drain when all 3 are firing, especially during rapid fire. Granted, the OP has Mk X vs XI, but I would venture its worth looking into.

Well, I can't state categorically how it's going to go, but my tendency is still to defer to the Starship Weapons Calculator (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=236545) even though it is rather old at this point, and that says that the 3 DHCs are better than 2 DHCs and a DC. Omega Weapon Amplifier won't change that, but overcapping might, unfortunately I think this kind of detailed data on that simply doesn't exist, which honestly isn't surprising given how difficult it would be to test. So while it's theoretically possible that could be true under just the right set of circumstances, it's a lot farther out on a limb than I ever want to be when making recommendations.

georgedp

insanesenator wrote: »

I have a question on this part... a long time ago, I read on the forums that the math actually works out better to have one dual cannon, 2 DHC rather than 3 DHC because of the slightly weaker power drain when all 3 are firing, especially during rapid fire. Granted, the OP has Mk X vs XI, but I would venture its worth looking into.

yes I read it too but the conclusion wasn't clear in favor of on of them. What I understand from various posts on that case is that with DHC you have more power per hit, less hits, so less crit chance than DC but DHC have more crit sev. So at the end its what you like most and what your power build can stand so you dont loose the wpn bonus.
(a question here, shouldn't I try to keep wpn power over 100 for the bonus? I thought that was the number thats why I was keeping the jem engines)

there was a debate also about photons and quantum that wasn't so clear either...

you got me a little confused with the consoles....:D
it seems I'll have to choose between more armor or more shielding?

it seems I'd better have the Mk XI set then, so get all 3 in same tier, if the difference is small, and It would be more close to get it...

I tried the energy siphon but didnt seem to work well with cubes...so I m trying out different ones to find something nice. The tyken helps some times with spheres and probes groups. Gravity well would be much better but....

The AtB is the next I m going to change cause i don't seem to handle it right all the time. Maybe try it again when I got the keybind thing working...but for now i m thinking of a 2nd EptS or an engineering team...(?)

As for the APs I dont have the credits or dil to change them right now and I'll probably keep them for some time, at least till I get to a fleet sometime after I finish the MACO set, plus I started to like them, sometimes they tend to kill things more quickly...
(But the new nanite disruptors look very sweet )

topset

insanesenator wrote: »

I have a question on this part... a long time ago, I read on the forums that the math actually works out better to have one dual cannon, 2 DHC rather than 3 DHC because of the slightly weaker power drain when all 3 are firing, especially during rapid fire. Granted, the OP has Mk X vs XI, but I would venture its worth looking into.

There's a lot of huge misunderstanding about weapon power drain and this is one of the single most overlooked issues. I also remember reading that, but testing shows it simply isn't true.

Weapon power drain works on cycles, so while dual cannons have less power drain PER CYCLE, they cycle twice as frequently, meaning that you're running at lower power levels overall. Dual Cannons proc more, and have more power drain - Dual Heavies proc less and crit harder. It's an overwhelming advantage for DHCs when you run the numbers. The increase in proc rate doesn't compensate for the lower crit severity and higher overall power drain.

Stick with all dual heavies

Unknown

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insanesenator

topset wrote: »

There's a lot of huge misunderstanding about weapon power drain and this is one of the single most overlooked issues. I also remember reading that, but testing shows it simply isn't true.

Weapon power drain works on cycles, so while dual cannons have less power drain PER CYCLE, they cycle twice as frequently, meaning that you're running at lower power levels overall. Dual Cannons proc more, and have more power drain - Dual Heavies proc less and crit harder. It's an overwhelming advantage for DHCs when you run the numbers. The increase in proc rate doesn't compensate for the lower crit severity and higher overall power drain.

Stick with all dual heavies

Thanks for the info! Now the trick is to get another mk XII AP DHC, since I got them before the rep system and I'm only at level 3 with omega since I've been back.

georgedp

edalgo wrote: »

Drop the Aux2batt for either a RSP or AuxSiF1.

Go with all DHC's and 1 torp

I replaced it with another EptS and trying it out to see if it works

insanesenator wrote: »

Thanks for the info! Now the trick is to get another mk XII AP DHC, since I got them before the rep system and I'm only at level 3 with omega since I've been back.

a noob question: where do you find the Mk XII AP? I found them only in exchange for extremely big prices and dil markets only have Mk XI ones...

Quick question: i had an uncommon conn doff for tac team and got a blue one yesterday. Can I ditch the second TT1 having those two or I'll need more? (i once read a thread somewhere about it but cant find it)

shadowaxx

Advanced Fleet space weapons has MK XII anti-proton, although the range of modifiers is limited.

axellightning

georgedp wrote: »

a noob question: where do you find the Mk XII AP? I found them only in exchange for extremely big prices and dil markets only have Mk XI ones...

Quick question: i had an uncommon conn doff for tac team and got a blue one yesterday. Can I ditch the second TT1 having those two or I'll need more? (i once read a thread somewhere about it but cant find it)

Fleet MK XII antiproton weapons are your best option if the exchange is too expensive. Saying that though you will need to spend a minimum of 140,000 Fleet credits and 70k Dilithium for a full set of 7 advanced fleet weapons (if you are using them on an escort of course). Fleet advanced are 20k fleet credits + 10k dil each (per weapon).

As regards to the tac team question; If you want to get 1 tac team down to a recharge time of 15 secs instead of 30, you will need 2 Vary rare conn officers which each take 8 seconds off tac team.

Hope this helps

axellightning

shadowaxx wrote: »

Advanced Fleet space weapons has MK XII anti-proton, although the range of modifiers is limited.

^ Yes that is the down side of Fleet weapons...

georgedp

140,000 Fleet credits and 70k Dilithium?? wow....!:eek:
it seems I'll stuck with Mk XI for a loooong time...:D
at least I have future "targets" not to get bored....the MACO set, the KCB-asim.console, the fleet weapons....ok I'll be ready in about 2 years....:D:P

by the way cant decide which is better, the 2 EptS or a EptS + reverse polarity.

The 2 EptS have a cooldown at 30 secs and I think the duration is also 30 sec so you can cycle them all the time and have a shield bonus?
The reverse polarity only lasts 7,5-8 sec, is this enough to help you?

different dilemma....since I have the 2 TTs and only space for one torpedo high yield, should I replace torpedos with cannons to increase my DPS? Will I have power issues with 4 cannons? What do you think? Anybody tried it? Or found any post about it?

torvinecho25

topset wrote: »

There's a lot of huge misunderstanding about weapon power drain and this is one of the single most overlooked issues. I also remember reading that, but testing shows it simply isn't true.

Weapon power drain works on cycles, so while dual cannons have less power drain PER CYCLE, they cycle twice as frequently, meaning that you're running at lower power levels overall. Dual Cannons proc more, and have more power drain - Dual Heavies proc less and crit harder. It's an overwhelming advantage for DHCs when you run the numbers. The increase in proc rate doesn't compensate for the lower crit severity and higher overall power drain.

Stick with all dual heavies

Okay I really don't watch to sound like I'm picking you apart here, but there are a few correction I've gotta make.

First off; while yes, weapon power drains in "cycles", the base power drain from dual cannon is lower then the drain from DHC (-10 DC, -12 DHC). So, while it is true that dual cannon drain more power, the difference isn't really notable.

Secondly, like weapon power, procs work in "cycles"; these cycles, however, are not connected to the power drain cycles. Despite the fact that DC fire twice as often, they actually proc at the EXACT SAME RATE as DHC, due to the proc cycling. There is no "proc advantage" between the two.

That being said, like you pointed out, DHCs DO have an inherent boost to criticals.

So, when you run the math, it really comes down to the slight higher damage of the DHC vs the sustained fire of the dual cannon. DHC do slightly more damage and are generally accepted as better. DC, however, can work perfectly fine as well.

Generally, DHC work better with [acc]; since it fires fewer bursts, you need to make every hit count. DC works better with [crth] or [crtd], to up its crit rate.

georgedp

jadensecura wrote: »

... you might want to think about dropping AtB for a second EPtS. For most PvE it's your shields that keep you alive, anything that gets through to your hull will kill you very rapidly, so you need to make sure your shields are strong....

5. Definitely replace the Tetraburnium. Actually I'd drop the Neutronium as well, move the Zero Point in there, and get 2 Emitter Arrays for that slot and your Shield Emitter Amplifier, since those will boost both healing and regen...

I tried some of the stuff you all suggested,
your 2nd EptS advise was perfect. I bind them both with my TT and fire all beams and my shields are up most of the time along with the 2nd amplifier instead of tetraburnium. But if they drop dont even have time to breath! :P:D
Hope it'll be better when I manage to change the Jem shield with the MACO.

Also got 2 rare conns and 1 uncommon and changed the 2nd TT with TtorpSpread and got a better warp core (hyper [rep] [w-a]) (+5 engines and +15 sub repair)

thank you all

axellightning

georgedp wrote: »

140,000 Fleet credits and 70k Dilithium?? wow....!:eek:
it seems I'll stuck with Mk XI for a loooong time...
at least I have future "targets" not to get bored....the MACO set, the KCB-asim.console, the fleet weapons....ok I'll be ready in about 2 years....

by the way cant decide which is better, the 2 EptS or a EptS + reverse polarity.

The 2 EptS have a cooldown at 30 secs and I think the duration is also 30 sec so you can cycle them all the time and have a shield bonus?
The reverse polarity only lasts 7,5-8 sec, is this enough to help you?

different dilemma....since I have the 2 TTs and only space for one torpedo high yield, should I replace torpedos with cannons to increase my DPS? Will I have power issues with 4 cannons? What do you think? Anybody tried it? Or found any post about it?

What type of energy weapons do you want to use? If you don't have a massive budget and are not very picky go with Tetryon because they are the cheapest on the exchange. Tbh don't even bother with fleet weapons, damage modifiers are pretty useless anyway on the most part. I personally use [Acc] [CrtH]x2 on DHC and [Acc]x2 [CrtH] on turrets.

Epts + reverse shield polarity I would go for.

YES ditch the torp and replace with a DHC. I personally don't see the use for a torp in a cannon build (my personal opinion, some would disagree)

DHC x4 Turret x3 Is what Iv'e always used; and many would agree

Hope your blowing those enemy's away soon

axellightning

georgedp wrote: »

I tried some of the stuff you all suggested,
your 2nd EptS advise was perfect. I bind them both with my TT and fire all beams and my shields are up most of the time along with the 2nd amplifier instead of tetraburnium. But if they drop dont even have time to breath! :P
Hope it'll be better when I manage to change the Jem shield with the MACO.

Also got 2 rare conns and 1 uncommon and changed the 2nd TT with TtorpSpread and got a better warp core (hyper [rep] [w-a]) (+5 engines and +15 sub repair)

thank you all

Whatever works for you

georgedp

axellightning wrote: »

What type of energy weapons do you want to use? If you don't have a massive budget and are not very picky go with Tetryon because they are the cheapest on the exchange. Tbh don't even bother with fleet weapons, damage modifiers are pretty useless anyway on the most part. I personally use [Acc] [CrtH]x2 on DHC and [Acc]x2 [CrtH] on turrets.

Epts + reverse shield polarity I would go for.

YES ditch the torp and replace with a DHC. I personally don't see the use for a torp in a cannon build (my personal opinion, some would disagree)

DHC x4 Turret x3 Is what Iv'e always used; and many would agree

Hope your blowing those enemy's away soon

I have already spent too much for the antiprotons so I'll stick with them. I'll upgrade them after getting the MACO to a higher Mk and add KCB (and maybe the omega torp)
I dont know about the 4 DHCs...I read somewhere (sorry cant remember where it was) that you get an increased damage when your wpn power is 100 or more, and with a 4th cannon in front I would be under it all the time. (now with 2 DHC and 1 DC I'm dropping only for a while and still my DPS is fairly low for escort) Dont now if this is truth...
I also like that torpedo spread!

by the way 2 hazard emitters do any good? they last 15'' and start 30'' cooldown to duplicate so you can have like 15'' effect-15'' nothing-15'' effect- 15'' nothing.
But already some times when you clean a plasma burn and get another one soon you have to wait till you can use it again. Should I try it?

jadensecura

georgedp wrote: »

...I dont know about the 4 DHCs...I read somewhere (sorry cant remember where it was) that you get an increased damage when your wpn power is 100 or more, and with a 4th cannon in front I would be under it all the time....

by the way 2 hazard emitters do any good? they last 15'' and start 30'' cooldown to duplicate so you can have like 15'' effect-15'' nothing-15'' effect- 15'' nothing.
But already some times when you clean a plasma burn and get another one soon you have to wait till you can use it again. Should I try it?

The power thing is sort of half true. The reality is that any time your weapon power drops below 125 you start losing damage output. There may be a change in the scaling at 100 power, I don't know about that, but as high as you can is good regardless. The flipside to that is that a DHC has higher DPS than a torp, especially against shields, and it's hard to fit in all the abilities you'd like to have when you want a torp too (ideally you'd want 2 copies of a cannon ability, 2-3 attack patterns (usually 2 copies of APO and 1 of APB), enough TTs to chain, and then 2 torp abilities as well, but you have to sacrifice something because that won't all fit). So as far as I know it's basically a toss up between the two build types.

On dual HE, it's certainly an option. I wouldn't sacrifice TSS for the second HE, but you could drop the offensive ability. I did run double HE on my Vesta for a while just after S7 released, when the plasma burn was so strong, it's pretty good, but not overwhelmingly so because of that 30 second cooldown.

georgedp

I have 1 TT (with Doffs) 1 APO 1 APB 2 cannon and 2 torp abilities at the moment, so I'll probably keep the torp for now till I manage to buy the other things + upgrade the 3d cannon to Mk XI, and when I got to omega torp or no torp I'll...ask again

I'll try the 2 HE and see how it goes, tyken doesn't seem to do any serious damage after all and dont see anything else that would do something. Science Team is a nice one but shares cooldown time with TT

axellightning

georgedp wrote: »

I have 1 TT (with Doffs) 1 APO 1 APB 2 cannon and 2 torp abilities at the moment, so I'll probably keep the torp for now till I manage to buy the other things + upgrade the 3d cannon to Mk XI, and when I got to omega torp or no torp I'll...ask again

I'll try the 2 HE and see how it goes, tyken doesn't seem to do any serious damage after all and dont see anything else that would do something. Science Team is a nice one but shares cooldown time with TT

Yeah that's why science team is a no no

I think the DHC/torp thing is all personal preference. Its 50/50 on opinions so I've seen on which is better.

Let us know your full set up when your happy with it

revlot

I am running fleet issue tetryon, not settled on what size weapons, started with beams and working my way up to something more powerfull. Not keen on the lower ability of turrets and favor beams in the rear.

But I digress, my question is about what consoles are used?

I currently run 4 Tactical - Tetryon Pulse Generator, 3 Engineering - Field Emitter, and 2 Science - Shield Emitter Amplifier. I have no hull augments, just the boosts to my shields, I also have Reverse Shield Polarity 1. I also got a [SCap] Warp Core to dedicate 7.5% of my engine power to the shield emitters, plus the shield buff ability the warp core brings.

I prefer to survive my strafing run, and make a second if needed, rather than die and suffer the consequences, so I kinda think it is important to buff the shields as well as the weapons.

And then there are the bonuses that come from advancing in the maco, nukara, and romulan reputations. So many things change your end results, that can you REALLY confine yourself to just debating the ship itself? Can you have a ship with less DPS and more survivability that comes out ahead by virtue of external bonuses?

I am more interested in 'Fun' than getting the best DPS I can get.

axellightning

revlot wrote: »

I am running fleet issue tetryon, not settled on what size weapons, started with beams and working my way up to something more powerfull. Not keen on the lower ability of turrets and favor beams in the rear.

But I digress, my question is about what consoles are used?

I currently run 4 Tactical - Tetryon Pulse Generator, 3 Engineering - Field Emitter, and 2 Science - Shield Emitter Amplifier. I have no hull augments, just the boosts to my shields, I also have Reverse Shield Polarity 1. I also got a [SCap] Warp Core to dedicate 7.5% of my engine power to the shield emitters, plus the shield buff ability the warp core brings.

I prefer to survive my strafing run, and make a second if needed, rather than die and suffer the consequences, so I kinda think it is important to buff the shields as well as the weapons.

And then there are the bonuses that come from advancing in the maco, nukara, and romulan reputations. So many things change your end results, that can you REALLY confine yourself to just debating the ship itself? Can you have a ship with less DPS and more survivability that comes out ahead by virtue of external bonuses?

I am more interested in 'Fun' than getting the best DPS I can get.

So what are you actually asking?

axellightning

revlot wrote: »

I am running fleet issue tetryon, not settled on what size weapons, started with beams and working my way up to something more powerfull. Not keen on the lower ability of turrets and favor beams in the rear.

I wouldn't have recommended fleet weapons in the first place tbh, especially since Tetryon DHC are only 1-2 mil each on the exchange

georgedp

revlot wrote: »

I am running fleet issue tetryon, not settled on what size weapons, started with beams and working my way up to something more powerfull. Not keen on the lower ability of turrets and favor beams in the rear.

But I digress, my question is about what consoles are used?

I currently run 4 Tactical - Tetryon Pulse Generator, 3 Engineering - Field Emitter, and 2 Science - Shield Emitter Amplifier. I have no hull augments, just the boosts to my shields, I also have Reverse Shield Polarity 1. I also got a [SCap] Warp Core to dedicate 7.5% of my engine power to the shield emitters, plus the shield buff ability the warp core brings.

I prefer to survive my strafing run, and make a second if needed, rather than die and suffer the consequences, so I kinda think it is important to buff the shields as well as the weapons.

And then there are the bonuses that come from advancing in the maco, nukara, and romulan reputations. So many things change your end results, that can you REALLY confine yourself to just debating the ship itself? Can you have a ship with less DPS and more survivability that comes out ahead by virtue of external bonuses?

I am more interested in 'Fun' than getting the best DPS I can get.

The idea of "pushing" shields as much as you can I think is a nice approach, the only bad about it is that if they drop you re dead in seconds. (i get that a lot with my current setup :P)
And from what I have learned the little time I m here, that s the problem with escorts right there, you must kill the other before that happens, thats why DPS is so important with escorts. It s no fun to get killed all the time
You must find the balance between them that works best for what you are "hunting" more...
The bonuses cant help you if you dont have a good ship and if you dont built it so you can take advantage of them.
I didnt get what exactly warp core you have

age03

To put it blunt Geers aren't Tacs and shouldn't try to be.That is great build for a Tac but not a Geer.

jadensecura

georgedp wrote: »

The idea of "pushing" shields as much as you can I think is a nice approach, the only bad about it is that if they drop you re dead in seconds. (i get that a lot with my current setup :P)
And from what I have learned the little time I m here, that s the problem with escorts right there, you must kill the other before that happens, thats why DPS is so important with escorts. It s no fun to get killed all the time

Those aren't just true of escorts, they're true of all ships in the game but the very best tank cruisers (meaning the ones with pilots with absurdly good reflexes). That's something you'll quickly notice that there are a lot of complaints about, including from me.

georgedp

http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=zeusd2_0

This is where I am at the moment.
Got the Mk XI MACO cause I need many days more to get to Tier 5 but it s really good.
Only problem I think my old deflector was better but really like the look of new one
And the Heavy Graviton Beam is, as some of you said, almost useless...

My next "target" is the assimilated console and here is my new question...
Where should I put it?
Take off the armor? As it is now when my shields get down I already die very quick....
Take off one of the Shield Emitters? I got many buffs to recover shields but some times they're not seem to be enough...

axellightning

georgedp wrote: »

http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=zeusd2_0

This is where I am at the moment.
Got the Mk XI MACO cause I need many days more to get to Tier 5 but it s really good.
Only problem I think my old deflector was better but really like the look of new one
And the Heavy Graviton Beam is, as some of you said, almost useless...

My next "target" is the assimilated console and here is my new question...
Where should I put it?
Take off the armor? As it is now when my shields get down I already die very quick....
Take off one of the Shield Emitters? I got many buffs to recover shields but some times they're not seem to be enough...

My console set up is: Tactical - energy weapon type x5, Engineer - Neutronium x2, Science - Assimilated module, Fleet shield emitter, Field generator/Zero point conduit. I would put universal consoles in science slots personally.

I have a Fleet tactical escort btw, but it doesn't effect anything in this instant

axellightning

georgedp wrote: »

http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=zeusd2_0

This is where I am at the moment.
Got the Mk XI MACO cause I need many days more to get to Tier 5 but it s really good.
Only problem I think my old deflector was better but really like the look of new one
And the Heavy Graviton Beam is, as some of you said, almost useless...

My next "target" is the assimilated console and here is my new question...
Where should I put it?
Take off the armor? As it is now when my shields get down I already die very quick....
Take off one of the Shield Emitters? I got many buffs to recover shields but some times they're not seem to be enough...

I would get rid of one of the shield emitters, swap it out with the zero point. And then add another neutronium.

For me damage resistance comes before shield cap, so you could also swap out the field generator for the assimilated module. It all depends what you want more; damage or survive ability