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D'deridex Turn Rate....again.
voicesdark
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I was really hoping all of the feedback on tribble was going to be enough to get this looked at. I'm not someone looking for a cruiser that turns like an escort, or anything like that.
Clarification: This wasn't intended as a strictly turn rate adjustment only thread. I'f you've got build suggestions (that don't revolve around "just cloak every time you want to turn") Please feel free to share them.
I'm sorry but I gave it a proper shake down on tribble and knew then the turn rate was too low. Been going at it again now with LOR launch, and well with absolutely no exaggeration....I just fell asleep waiting to turn.
Not asking for much just a bump to 6.5-7.5 is all. IF it was a carrier the current turn rate would be okay, but it's not a carrier and especially with the Elachi and their subspace jump...well yeah like I said I literally fell asleep turning.
This REALLY is something that needs to finally get addressed, and with that I DON'T want this being turned into another flame/canon war like the tribble thread was. So please keep replies ONLY to build suggestions or serious discussion about the turn rate of this ship IN-GAME. Thank you.
UPDATE:
Combat Impulse Engine MK XII [Aux] [Spd] [Turn]
Console - Engineering - RCS Accelerator MK XII
Enhanced Maneuvering Thrusters mini-set
- Console - Universal - Projected Singularity
- Console - Universal - Molecular Phase Inversion Field
[Genetic Resequencer - Space Trait: Helmsman]
Console - Tachyokinetic Converter
Skills:
None of my Captain skills have more than 6 points put into them, the bonus after six isn't worth the points.
Speeds
8.4 deg/sec - At Full Stop
14.7 deg/sec - Full speed
16.7 - Full Impulse
35.2 - Cloaked
41.3 - Evasive Man.
43.6 - Full Impulse and Evasive man.
112.2 - Full Impulse, cloaked, and Evasive Man.
I think I remember seeing someone saying something about a Singularity Core that increases turn rate as well, but the only one I could find on the exchange was the one that boosts slipstream turning.
So there it is a core build that doesn't rely on cloaking, boff or captain abilities, or stacking multiples of the same console. Actually with this build you can use as little as 4 universal consoles which still leaves room for others.
the only problem is the Tachyokinetic Converter costs 200 lobi and is bound on pickup so there's no way to get one in the exchange or anywhere else, and the RCS and Helmsman trait are expensive to get on the exchange, but it gives you a lot more freedom for boff abilities and consoles.
Forgot to mention that with this setup I'm running engine power at min so I can use the extra power elsewhere.
Clarification: This wasn't intended as a strictly turn rate adjustment only thread. I'f you've got build suggestions (that don't revolve around "just cloak every time you want to turn") Please feel free to share them.
I'm sorry but I gave it a proper shake down on tribble and knew then the turn rate was too low. Been going at it again now with LOR launch, and well with absolutely no exaggeration....I just fell asleep waiting to turn.
Not asking for much just a bump to 6.5-7.5 is all. IF it was a carrier the current turn rate would be okay, but it's not a carrier and especially with the Elachi and their subspace jump...well yeah like I said I literally fell asleep turning.
This REALLY is something that needs to finally get addressed, and with that I DON'T want this being turned into another flame/canon war like the tribble thread was. So please keep replies ONLY to build suggestions or serious discussion about the turn rate of this ship IN-GAME. Thank you.
UPDATE:
Combat Impulse Engine MK XII [Aux] [Spd] [Turn]
Console - Engineering - RCS Accelerator MK XII
Enhanced Maneuvering Thrusters mini-set
- Console - Universal - Projected Singularity
- Console - Universal - Molecular Phase Inversion Field
[Genetic Resequencer - Space Trait: Helmsman]
Console - Tachyokinetic Converter
Skills:
None of my Captain skills have more than 6 points put into them, the bonus after six isn't worth the points.
Speeds
8.4 deg/sec - At Full Stop
14.7 deg/sec - Full speed
16.7 - Full Impulse
35.2 - Cloaked
41.3 - Evasive Man.
43.6 - Full Impulse and Evasive man.
112.2 - Full Impulse, cloaked, and Evasive Man.
I think I remember seeing someone saying something about a Singularity Core that increases turn rate as well, but the only one I could find on the exchange was the one that boosts slipstream turning.
So there it is a core build that doesn't rely on cloaking, boff or captain abilities, or stacking multiples of the same console. Actually with this build you can use as little as 4 universal consoles which still leaves room for others.
the only problem is the Tachyokinetic Converter costs 200 lobi and is bound on pickup so there's no way to get one in the exchange or anywhere else, and the RCS and Helmsman trait are expensive to get on the exchange, but it gives you a lot more freedom for boff abilities and consoles.
Forgot to mention that with this setup I'm running engine power at min so I can use the extra power elsewhere.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by voicesdark on
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Yeah there's the RCS and then the two console mini set bonus, but the real problem with the ship is the base turn rate it too low so even when you add an RCS or the console set it doesn't give it the boost it needs.
Wait that doesn't even remotely make sense. Why would they have to respec all the fed cruisers just because of boosting 1-2 points to ones that should never have been given the same turn rate as a carrier in the first place? A 1-2 point boost for the base turn rate wouldn't effect any other cruisers.
They could easily change the base turn rate to a 7 or 8 even and it wouldn't really effect anything, although I would say 8 should be the max.
The other easy solution would be to change the mini set bonus to apply to base turn rate which would put it at 7.5.
ADDITION: And yes for the record I think the Galaxy should get a slight boost as well. Two of the most iconic ships for a generation of ST fans and a pakled freighter could run circles around then.
Admiral Jorak
Romulan Intelligence
I'll say it again (since you either didn't understand, or chose not to): The D'Deridex turn rate is explicitly linked to (and set as slightly worse than) the Galaxy's turn rate. This was made clear during the Tribble testing of LoR by Archon.
You change one, the other has to change. And as a result, the entire Federation cruiser paradigm has to be re-worked since you'd suddenly have one of the least nimble ships becoming one of the most nimble ships.
ummm....dude there is a T5 and fleet version of it as well and they all have the same turn rate, so it's not just about a T4 ship.
5 - Extremely large ships with huge hulls. Carriers.
6 - Very large ships with large hulls. Heavy Armored Cruisers.
7 - Large ships with average Cruiser hulls and increased manueverability. Combat Cruisers.
8 - Large ships with average/below average Cruiser hulls and enhanced manueverability. Battle Cruisers.
Now, on that scale, where does the D'deridex fall? It is a Very/Extremely large ship with large hull, and no demonstrated increased manueverability. That puts it in the 5 - 6 range. Might even go as high as a 7, but 8 is putting it into the nimble Battlecruiser class, which it is clearly not.
However, then you look at the Cloaking ability, Heavy Cannon capability, Singularity abilities, and now you have to pay for all those. So knocking it down to a 5.5 puts it on the level between a Carrier and a Heavy Armored Cruiser, and comparable to the Galaxy class on which it was scaled to.
So, no. I don't think the turn rate needs to be changed. That is, unless you want to give up something else. Maybe no Singularity abilities? No Cloak? Those are the major advantages of this ship over the Galaxy, so one of those would have to go. As has been said, if this ship is boosted without payment, it will result in a clear imbalance and require other ships to be adjusted to compensate.
Anyway, my two cents.
Don't forget the Double D has two Lt.Com BOFF slots, something that no other ship has. And using those slots, plus the changes to EPEngines, you can run EPEngines and APOmega for a near constant turn rate buff. Add a quality RCS and maybe the new Helmsman trait and you can actually turn....decently.
Oh, and apparently cloaking increases your turn rate, so you can cloak in combat and turn quickly for another attack.
Haakona has a 5.5 and splits into a 10 turn ship and a 13 turn ship.
Essentially nullifying the its Larger so its got to have a massive turn rate.
(Which is patently false)
Its based on Mass to Thrust ratios how well a ship can maneuver in space.
Bigger Engine to its Mass = Better Maneuverbility.
Also might to keep in mind The Big D moves slower at Warp, not impulse. It also maneuvers as well if not better then the Enterprise.
Neither the Enterprise nor the Big D should have horrible turn rates it serves no purpose.
It's fine.
Spock's Brain.
Are you aware that there is a serious difference between "speed" and "turnrate"?
The mass to thrust ratio only affects the ship's acceleration, not its turnrate.
Turning is determined/achieved by the navigational thrusters and/or how well (if at all) the impulse thrust can be redirected (vectorised thrust).
And that only works if the impulse engines are located at positions where they can have any affect on the ship's orientation and can do more than just provide forward thrust.
We all agree that whatever point change should effect both the D'D and the Galaxy. and that it should be a point change of at max 1-2 points to the base turn rate.
My pointing out your clear inability to comprehend something, and your continued inability to apply that comprehension to the issue at hand is not me being an TRIBBLE.
Secondly, simply because you can't understand or agree with the reasoning behind something, in this case the link between the Galaxy and the D'Deridex, doesn't mean there isn't a reason for something being the way it is.
Archon made the decision to stick with the (arguably liberal) interpretation of Trek lore that has the D'Deridex being very closely aligned with the Glaxy in terms of performance. As a result, that means for STO the stats of the two ships are inextricably related.
Once again, completely oblivious to the issue at hand: the relationship between the D'Deridex and the Galaxy, and the effect making such a significant change to the Galaxy would have on the entire Federation cruiser dynamic. Instead of making changes to one ship, what you're asking for would necessitate a re-evaluation, and likely changes, to easily a dozen different ships. Possibly even a design pass on the entire Cruiser ship class.
That's not a "simple change".
please understand what I'm about to say isn't directed at you, but this isn't the first time this logic has come up, and there's a major flaw in it.
Yes overall the D'deridex has a huge "footprint", but overall the ship is comprised of two thin hull sections separated by empty space in between, so the whole mass + thrust = turn is more of a grey line than usual.
Carriers make up for the lack of turn by having the combat pets do the majority of the attacking, therefore they don't need a higher turn and because of the fighters and additional hull for the hangar bays have more mass.
And again this isn't asking for a huge amount of an increase. By saying by 1-2 points it could simply be raising it to 6.5-7.5.
Singularity abilities aren't really as useful as people think, at least not to the point you're suggesting.
Now seeing as how the are linking the Galaxy and D'deridex together which is understandable they were designed to null each other out, the Galaxy should actually get a 1 point difference putting the galaxy at 7.5 and the D'deridex at 6.5. The logic behind the point difference is as you said the D'deridex has singularity powers, which pretty much the only real useful one is the equivalent of Miracle worker. Structurally wise the Galaxy has more surface area connecting the neck and saucer compared to the D'D neck and hull.
We all agree that whatever point change should effect both the D'D and the Galaxy. and that it should be a point change of at max 1-2 points to the base turn rate.
In the case of the D'Deridex, yes it does.
Get it through your skull:
Because of the relationship between the two ships, changing a base stat on the D'Deridex means that the corresponding change must be made to the Galaxy. In this case you're talking about a 25% (or more) increase in turn rate.
That change will then need to be mirrored across the entire Fed cruiser population because people will ask, and rightly so, why if one ship gets a turn rate increase why shouldnt every other comparable ship receive the same treatment?
So because you blindly demanded a change to one ship while stubbornly ignoring the relationships it has with other ships, you've instead caused a ripple effect that changes the entire cruiser dynamic for the Federation faction. And because the Dev's apparently like Fed cruisers as they are, it's never going to happen
www.divisionhispana.com
The DD series doesn't really feel like they have any redeeming value, slow turn rate, incredibly low inertia, slow impulse, terrible Tactical BOFF layouts with little to nothing to offset it.
If the PvE gameplay actually required slow moving space whales for tanking content, it may have had a niche to fill.
If you want to make a "realism" argument based upon Newtonian mechanics, the heck you say. Reaction control engines' mass to thrust ratio, save proximity to center-of-mass, is everything in determining responsiveness in reaction control.
Spock's Brain.
Oh dear lord...here we go again telling the few that its fine or go back to escorts
Use the following for the tier 5 ship if you really really want to turn on a dime and be all cool and jazzy
RCS CONSOLES....
SKILL POINTS IN THRUSTERS....
LTC TAC SLOT...ATTACK PATTERN OMEGA 1
LTC SCI SLOT.... ENERGY SIPHON 2 (this boost all your power levels, thus giving you more engine)
TOSS DOWN....AUXILLIARY TO DAMPNERS (this buffs turn rate)
USE EVASIVE MANUEVERS
USE THE BLOODY CLOAK
I do appologize for the apparent shouting of above mention, but considering it was only listed like a half dozen times by myself alone in the test thread and just not heard apparently..
along with the fact that...its not the same as a fed or kdf ship, dont fly her the same way, your tactics need to change, ( I say your, for the people that havent picked up on this yet)
If it doesnt fit your playstyle, I do appologize but ask anyone that fits into this category to stop asking for something many other people have adapted and mastered the Big D, and go fly something else, there is 2 other very familiar ships at endgame to use if its a matter of wanting to fly the "iconic" ship.
For those that enjoy it as is, bravo, for those that dont, take above mention into consideration try out some diferent builds and what not, if it still isnt for you, move on.
I do understand, and please take it that I was speaking to the way ships are set up within the game as a whole, and not comparison to their performance via mass/thrust ratio (which is debatable when you consider that warp drive is reactionless drive). I merely wanted to point out that a 5.5 turn rate in this game is both a representation of how the Double D fits in comparison to the other ships in the game and also payment for the other abilities this ship has (and I hate to say it, but Singularity abilities can be quite useful, compared to ships that have none...teleport 5KM ahead, please?).
To illustrate, let's say the Galaxy and D'D both are unilaterally given a 7.5 turn rate. Now, the Galaxy has more manueverability than a Sovereign, a combat cruiser. So, we have to adjust the Sovereign up to an 8.5. That puts the Sovereign above the Excelsior, which is supposed to have more manuervability, and so we have to up the Excelsior to a 9.5. And so on, as the ripple effect spreads to more and more ships. Eventually, you end up with everything turning faster, and the situation the same. The only alternative is to give only the D'D the turn increase, which will then begs the question of what the Galaxy has that the D'D does not in supposedly equivilant ships.
I think the mini-set bonus, combined with the RCS consoles gets the job done and really this is a non-issue for the cryptic devs who playtested that eventuality internally and found the ship to do what they wanted it to do.
You can overcome this by using an RCS accelerator, or the 2 piece bonus for the refit/retrofit D'D, or careful use of battle cloak, or careful use of Evasive Maneuvers, or a subspace jump console, or the lockbox trait, or maxed out thrusters skill, etc.
Maybe the D'D should have been designed as a battle cruiser instead of a heavy cruiser, but it looks like a heavy cruiser and in the shows, that was its apparent role.
And frankly, as an NPC ship, it has always had a terribly slow turn rate, which made it one of the few NPC ships where even a battle cruiser could get in its rear arc and hang out all day long.
For better or worse, the D'Deridex is and has always been a whale. And as non-carrier whales go, I think it's by far the best of the bunch. BoFF and console layout is very flexible, and it has good stats apart from the turn rate/inertia.
It is simply the least nimble ship in the romulan fleet, as it is meant to be.
But don't let me stop you, it's getting absurdly hilarious. Or hilariously absurd. I'm not sure which.