Last night and friend and I did a 1v1 pvp on Tribble. I as in a bug and he was in a sci, yes i know but it was for testing purposes of the effect of EPtS 10 second hole.
Last night and friend and I did a 1v1 pvp on Tribble. I as in a bug and he was in a sci, yes i know but it was for testing purposes of the effect of EPtS 10 second hole.
10 - 0 All kills within a minute
What is the result of this 1v1 pairing on Holodeck?
Guess me using only 1 epts is a good thing eh? I've never run 2 copies on anything except a galx due to its limited power selection at low levels lol
I think folks that run a single EPtS or those that run EPtS/EPtX are likely to notice this far more than the 2x EPtS folks will.
I look at it like the following...
2x EPtS: from a 0s gap to a 10s gap
1x EPtS: from a 15s gap to a 25s gap
EPtS/EPtX: from a ~0s gap to
000 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
015 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
020 EA wears off
030 EB triggered CD wears off
035 EB wears off
045 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
060 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
065 EA wears off
075 EB triggered CD wears off
080 EB wears off
090 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
105 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
110 EA wears off
120 EB triggered CD wears off
125 EB wears off
A convoluted pair of 25s gaps. Again, from ~0s to 25s.
What about the DCE DOFFs used to get that ~0s gap? Well, instead of gambling that they take you from 15s to 0s - it's a case of gambling that they take you from 25s to 10s.
Some might say it's not fair to look at it that way. It's the same +10s as the others.
The others didn't make the investment in the DOFFs - not only procuring them but also the opportunity cost of running them instead of something else. That gamble that was 0s or 15s could result in 25s now. From 0s to 25s...
Which is why I think the following is likely to happen in certain cases:
2x EPtS folks will continue to run 2x EPtS.
1x EPtS folks will run 2x EPtS to have a 10s gap instead of the new 25s gap.
EPtS/EPtX folks will switch to 2x EPtS and change their DOFFs.
Decloak Alpha Folks...you know...I think they're going to pick up EPtW. Have to remember the changes being made to GDF as well (50% hull). It's kind of funny when you think about it - the boost to EPtW for spike/burst and the 10s gap in EPtS. Hrmm...how much damage did the Decloak Alpha Folks lose with that GDF change?
I think folks that run a single EPtS or those that run EPtS/EPtX are likely to notice this far more than the 2x EPtS folks will.
I look at it like the following...
2x EPtS: from a 0s gap to a 10s gap
1x EPtS: from a 15s gap to a 25s gap
EPtS/EPtX: from a ~0s gap to
000 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
015 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
020 EA wears off
030 EB triggered CD wears off
035 EB wears off
045 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
060 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
065 EA wears off
075 EB triggered CD wears off
080 EB wears off
090 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
105 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
110 EA wears off
120 EB triggered CD wears off
125 EB wears off
A convoluted pair of 25s gaps. Again, from ~0s to 25s.
What about the DCE DOFFs used to get that ~0s gap? Well, instead of gambling that they take you from 15s to 0s - it's a case of gambling that they take you from 25s to 10s.
Some might say it's not fair to look at it that way. It's the same +10s as the others.
The others didn't make the investment in the DOFFs - not only procuring them but also the opportunity cost of running them instead of something else. That gamble that was 0s or 15s could result in 25s now. From 0s to 25s...
Which is why I think the following is likely to happen in certain cases:
2x EPtS folks will continue to run 2x EPtS.
1x EPtS folks will run 2x EPtS to have a 10s gap instead of the new 25s gap.
EPtS/EPtX folks will switch to 2x EPtS and change their DOFFs.
Decloak Alpha Folks...you know...I think they're going to pick up EPtW. Have to remember the changes being made to GDF as well (50% hull). It's kind of funny when you think about it - the boost to EPtW for spike/burst and the 10s gap in EPtS. Hrmm...how much damage did the Decloak Alpha Folks lose with that GDF change?
I would rather have my GDF back please! Get rid of that stupid, nasty hull damage requirement!
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Yeouch... eptw bonus is going to be for 20 seconds now? Man, thats going to hurt as before if a saw a eptw trigger, I'd only need to survive its onslaught for a few seconds..but twenty? 10% bonus damage for eptw1 on a bug or kumari or defiant or other for 20 seconds...talk about a dps boost
...and epts is reduced? seriously? well it'll make decloak ganking easier with a cycle space measured in days, but now it on paper sounds almost pointless to keep a cycle going even out of combat as theres no overlap between the prepatation of defence and attack - by my logic (likely flawed but that me), as resist/attack have equal durations, if the attacker activates first, their bonus ends before the resist does - but wheras then said attacker only does 100% of its dps (compared to 110 previously) - which means for the 20 seconds between cycles, the defender has zero bonus resist while the attacker is doing full damage - thus the defenders in a worse position defending/tanking than the attacker is...whereas before, the defender had a resist that extended far over the duration of the damage bonus
...I hate to say it, but unless you carry a tss or such and time them meticulously, tanking in pvp is done for and in pve, tanking will be a far harder task with that huge period between buffs if this hits - and the attackers, escort types, will remain dominant as long as they shoot first
For each of these EPtX changes, I'd love to hear what problem is being solved.
Improving EPtW appears to help cruisers. Maybe.
If, arguably, the EPtS change reduces overall tankiness, does it affect escorts and cruisers equally? Does it help engineers? Not obvious.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
...I hate to say it, but unless you carry a tss or such and time them meticulously, tanking in pvp is done for and in pve, tanking will be a far harder task with that huge period between buffs if this hits - and the attackers, escort types, will remain dominant as long as they shoot first
Yeah, I just can't see Cryptic being dumb enough to release this as is. I'm thinking they've listened hard to the complaints and will roll this change back. At least on EPTS.
Whenever we diminish the value of something players have worked hard to earn, we try to compensate whenever possible. In this case, we chose to include a Defense bonus because it is thematically appropriate to the concept of being an elusive target in Space combat.
The changes in this patch both reduce the Stealth values attached to the Subterfuge Trait, and eliminate the stacking of those bonuses. We felt that a small Defense bonus would help mitigate those changes.
What is your specific concern over the Defense bonus? Do you feel that the bonus is too large?
So...one could potentially say the following happened...maybe, eh?
Cryptic decided to diminish the value of EPtS/EPtE/EPtW/EPtA. That they were providing additional power/benefit for 30s was a problem for them. In order to compensate players for the loss of 10s and the various gaps created (10-25s); they decided to boost the duration of the secondary effects as well as add other thematic bonuses to the powers. Since EPtS was already receiving the max effect on the secondary effect, that effect was not boosted further.
The new changes sound good, the problem is that people were used to current eptX for so long time and of course its gonna be hard and take some time to get used to the re-balance. But now "emergency power" has a new meaning as not being 100% uptime. Its gonna require more attention, not just bind it to spacebar and slam it to death.
Yeah, I just can't see Cryptic being dumb enough to release this as is. I'm thinking they've listened hard to the complaints and will roll this change back. At least on EPTS.
My hope is...they keep talking about the new code...that they've completely redone the game and are dropping parts out - so that even with the changes to EPtX and everything else they plan on doing - that it will all work out in the end!
Then again, I may have just forgotten to sleep last night.
Sadly, it seems they come from a complete misunderstanding of how the Emergency powers work. If you look at the Tribble thread, the dev defending the power didn't even know how the powers worked at all as far as cooldowns are concerned.
Sadly, it seems they come from a complete misunderstanding of how the Emergency powers work. If you look at the Tribble thread, the dev defending the power didn't even know how the powers worked at all as far as cooldowns are concerned.
I would suggest that they split the eptx abilities into two abilities each. One that just runs once its activated (with a long cooldown) and one that enhances a running ability even further (but only for a short time with a short cooldown).
For example, splitting Emergency Power to shields into two skills:
Power to shields and emergency power to shields.
Power to shields I:
Ensign
Runs permanently once activated. (can be de-buffed of course)
2 min cooldown before it can be re-activated.
5 % shield resistance
+7.5 Shield Power
Emergency Power to shields I:
Ensign
8 sec runtime
30 sec cooldown before it can be re-activated.
10 % shield resistance
+15 Shield Power
+X Shield Regeneration IF Power to shields is running.
+X Shield Resistance IF Power to shields is running.
The numbers themself are totally made up and should be balanced by people that understand the game better than i do.
A change like this would accomodate the tank-focused classes by giving them more abilities for their excessive engineer slots and allowing better balancing. It would lower the overall resistances etc. but would allow to to buff them over what we have now for a short duration to counter a damage spike.
Personally I think these changes are good. As others have said 100% uptime was a stupid idea. It's not an emergency power.
It seems so much stuff can be keybound with little thought that battles happen at a furious pace. Many new players are instavaped wondering wtf, not making a dent in ppls shields. It would be nice if the mechanics of the game could be changed so that it takes consideration about when to deploy EPtS, TT etc; In the same way someone might make a decision to tractor someone in their Omega cd window.
EPtA with the stealth sight boost may offset the Alpha bops with their boost to EPtW.
I also completely agree with DDIS about pressure damage. I've been trying to play on my engineers more and found the whole process thoroughly unpleasant. Granted I am not a great player at engineer, but it always seemed to me that a battleship/cruiser type ship should be able to punch out enough dmg with its beams to make an escort break off an attack over time, or contribute dmg in some meaningful way to a battle. I don't personally enjoy playing a pure healing role (and am admittedly terrible at it), it also makes running dailes etc far more time consuming than romping through in an escort.
I hope the EPtW will address the pressure dmg issue, though I still think beams draw way too much power for their dps. Spike dmg should still be the domain of the tactical escort or cannon/dbb escort imo.
Inner Circle / Special Circumstances Gardiner, Suval, Thran Korvak, Raketh, Xedar, Zidow Decis, Vesok
From a PvP perspective, players can choose between increasing burst damage (EPtW) or increasing survivability (EPtS). They can also choose "get me as far from this point as possible" (EPtE) or increasing hold effectiveness and stealth detection (EPtA). All of these are real substantial choices to make due to the 15 second Emergency Power global cooldown - unlike most other offensive powers in the game, activating EPtW or EPtA also opens up the activator to spike damage, since they can't use EPtS in that 15 second window.
This is where they think they have created more choices.
The truth is that they have created less choice.
Their assumption is that A, B, C & D are all equal.
That now, with all buff times being the same, you simply choose which one you prefer the most. A, B, C or D. They think that each of these are "substantial".
That's not how this game works, because A (shield resistance) is still critical, the other three are simply "nice to have".
Resistance will always be more important than any other buff or power because you can't use other powers if you are dead.
Even you admit this, when you agreed that people should cover the gap with OTHER healing. (TSS/HE).
So now, instead of slotting 1 heal power to cover the gap you absolutely must choose OTHER heal powers (whereas right now, I' m running TB instead of TSS on my escort for example).
Again, a point where there is actually less choice through an unconsidered domino effect.
The gap is 5 seconds out of 45, for 11% - I'm not seeing where you're coming up with a 33% gap in coverage.
T=0 - Use first copy of EPtS 1
T=15 - Global Emergency Power cooldown finishes
T=20 - EPtS buff falls off
T=20.01 - Use second copy of EPtS 1
T=30 - Global Emergency Power cooldown finishes again
T=40 - EPtS buff falls off
T=45 - First copy of EPtS finshes recharging
T=45.1 - Go to T=0
It's not an 11% gap, it's not 5s.
Runaway healing, and resistances in this game is an issue but this ignores the problem (power creep) and targets instead baseline mitigation.
Instead of a resistance reduction which would benefit pressure damage (and therefore to an extent all ships), this is a 10s gaping hole that benefits spike (limited amount of builds and ships).
Honestly any "emergency" power should only provide a minimum, a floor value, rather than add to a spike peak.
For example, EPtS should be used to keep shields online longer, instead of stacking the power onto existing output to boost the overall resists. Or with EPtW, if I dip below my 100 energy mark, redirect emergency power to bring it back to 100, rather than add it to the top and take me to 160.
The game isnt really designed this way though, so a lot of stuff would have to change to make this feasible. Most obvious problem is that beam weapons suck without the cap-boosting juice.
While I do not PvP, I wanted to get the opinion from the PvP community about an idea of how to compensate for the changes. I posted it in the Tribble Maintenance Release Notes for April 10th, link below.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
You're getting caught up in the semantics of the power names.
Uh, no... Current game model is all about adding to spike, stack this with that for more boom. There is nothing that fills in the valleys in between the peaks. EPtX should fill that role. Its not semantics its about rhythm, remove the peaks and fill in the valleys. People complain about the yo-yo, but it is because there is massive buildup then fall back to nothing. This would reduce the stacking and raise the floor.
I read the patch notes, and all I can make of it is that cryptic wants more people to get on their tactical captains and fly an escort, than any other ship. Tacscorts will simply choose a EPtS/EPtE combo and that's that, there will be more QQ about game being only Escort Trek Online.
Uh, no... Current game model is all about adding to spike, stack this with that for more boom. There is nothing that fills in the valleys in between the peaks.
well now the instant kill bops and other heavy burst ships will be able to kill people with more ease... so now you escort pilots prepare for more qq and nerfs to come to your damage when you are able to time a burst between the eps resistance buff. All this is going to do is make more people cry about damage!
seriously? my crf bo3 setup bop melts sheild faces with ease through ANYTHING that hasent popped RSP, gimme a break.
100% uptime on epts is decent against pressure dmg or even non alpha tac dmg to an extent. But please.....a well timed alpha between omegas will kill anyone regardless of epts.
Like it. No, love it. My eng will be usefull again.
Ok, it will be creating gaps but... ES1 is almost on pair with EPtS1 when it comes to resists and ES3 is better by 10% when compared with EPtS3 (unless wiki lies). Get an eng/cruiser with ES on ride to give you protection during those 10 seconds IF you are attacked.
Antonio is right. This is a great change.
And you, escorts players - deal with it. You are supposed to be glass cannons.
20s of coverage followed by 10s of gap is about as "yo-yo" as anything gets in this game.
I'm not supporting the change on Tribble, I'm suggesting an alternative course--EPtX should extend the duration of a power, rather than adding to the peak power.
Comments
10 - 0 All kills within a minute
Not an insignificant nerf IMHO
Tanky guys falling to pieces, unlike before.
Good question. We will do it on holo when the servers get back online and I will revert to you/this thread.
I think folks that run a single EPtS or those that run EPtS/EPtX are likely to notice this far more than the 2x EPtS folks will.
I look at it like the following...
2x EPtS: from a 0s gap to a 10s gap
1x EPtS: from a 15s gap to a 25s gap
EPtS/EPtX: from a ~0s gap to
000 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
015 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
020 EA wears off
030 EB triggered CD wears off
035 EB wears off
045 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
060 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
065 EA wears off
075 EB triggered CD wears off
080 EB wears off
090 EA 45s CD, EA 15s triggered CD
105 EA triggered CD wears off, EB 45s CD, EB 15s triggered CD
110 EA wears off
120 EB triggered CD wears off
125 EB wears off
A convoluted pair of 25s gaps. Again, from ~0s to 25s.
What about the DCE DOFFs used to get that ~0s gap? Well, instead of gambling that they take you from 15s to 0s - it's a case of gambling that they take you from 25s to 10s.
Some might say it's not fair to look at it that way. It's the same +10s as the others.
The others didn't make the investment in the DOFFs - not only procuring them but also the opportunity cost of running them instead of something else. That gamble that was 0s or 15s could result in 25s now. From 0s to 25s...
Which is why I think the following is likely to happen in certain cases:
2x EPtS folks will continue to run 2x EPtS.
1x EPtS folks will run 2x EPtS to have a 10s gap instead of the new 25s gap.
EPtS/EPtX folks will switch to 2x EPtS and change their DOFFs.
Decloak Alpha Folks...you know...I think they're going to pick up EPtW. Have to remember the changes being made to GDF as well (50% hull). It's kind of funny when you think about it - the boost to EPtW for spike/burst and the 10s gap in EPtS. Hrmm...how much damage did the Decloak Alpha Folks lose with that GDF change?
I would rather have my GDF back please! Get rid of that stupid, nasty hull damage requirement!
...and epts is reduced? seriously? well it'll make decloak ganking easier with a cycle space measured in days, but now it on paper sounds almost pointless to keep a cycle going even out of combat as theres no overlap between the prepatation of defence and attack - by my logic (likely flawed but that me), as resist/attack have equal durations, if the attacker activates first, their bonus ends before the resist does - but wheras then said attacker only does 100% of its dps (compared to 110 previously) - which means for the 20 seconds between cycles, the defender has zero bonus resist while the attacker is doing full damage - thus the defenders in a worse position defending/tanking than the attacker is...whereas before, the defender had a resist that extended far over the duration of the damage bonus
...I hate to say it, but unless you carry a tss or such and time them meticulously, tanking in pvp is done for and in pve, tanking will be a far harder task with that huge period between buffs if this hits - and the attackers, escort types, will remain dominant as long as they shoot first
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Improving EPtW appears to help cruisers. Maybe.
If, arguably, the EPtS change reduces overall tankiness, does it affect escorts and cruisers equally? Does it help engineers? Not obvious.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Yeah, I just can't see Cryptic being dumb enough to release this as is. I'm thinking they've listened hard to the complaints and will roll this change back. At least on EPTS.
To an extent, I think part of it can be found in this except from another thread:
So...one could potentially say the following happened...maybe, eh?
Cryptic decided to diminish the value of EPtS/EPtE/EPtW/EPtA. That they were providing additional power/benefit for 30s was a problem for them. In order to compensate players for the loss of 10s and the various gaps created (10-25s); they decided to boost the duration of the secondary effects as well as add other thematic bonuses to the powers. Since EPtS was already receiving the max effect on the secondary effect, that effect was not boosted further.
I too am curiuos what issue these changes solve.
Too much cruiser tankiness?????
R.I.P
My hope is...they keep talking about the new code...that they've completely redone the game and are dropping parts out - so that even with the changes to EPtX and everything else they plan on doing - that it will all work out in the end!
Then again, I may have just forgotten to sleep last night.
Sadly, it seems they come from a complete misunderstanding of how the Emergency powers work. If you look at the Tribble thread, the dev defending the power didn't even know how the powers worked at all as far as cooldowns are concerned.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=487871
For example, splitting Emergency Power to shields into two skills:
Power to shields and emergency power to shields.
Power to shields I:
Ensign
Runs permanently once activated. (can be de-buffed of course)
2 min cooldown before it can be re-activated.
5 % shield resistance
+7.5 Shield Power
Emergency Power to shields I:
Ensign
8 sec runtime
30 sec cooldown before it can be re-activated.
10 % shield resistance
+15 Shield Power
+X Shield Regeneration IF Power to shields is running.
+X Shield Resistance IF Power to shields is running.
The numbers themself are totally made up and should be balanced by people that understand the game better than i do.
A change like this would accomodate the tank-focused classes by giving them more abilities for their excessive engineer slots and allowing better balancing. It would lower the overall resistances etc. but would allow to to buff them over what we have now for a short duration to counter a damage spike.
It seems so much stuff can be keybound with little thought that battles happen at a furious pace. Many new players are instavaped wondering wtf, not making a dent in ppls shields. It would be nice if the mechanics of the game could be changed so that it takes consideration about when to deploy EPtS, TT etc; In the same way someone might make a decision to tractor someone in their Omega cd window.
EPtA with the stealth sight boost may offset the Alpha bops with their boost to EPtW.
I also completely agree with DDIS about pressure damage. I've been trying to play on my engineers more and found the whole process thoroughly unpleasant. Granted I am not a great player at engineer, but it always seemed to me that a battleship/cruiser type ship should be able to punch out enough dmg with its beams to make an escort break off an attack over time, or contribute dmg in some meaningful way to a battle. I don't personally enjoy playing a pure healing role (and am admittedly terrible at it), it also makes running dailes etc far more time consuming than romping through in an escort.
I hope the EPtW will address the pressure dmg issue, though I still think beams draw way too much power for their dps. Spike dmg should still be the domain of the tactical escort or cannon/dbb escort imo.
Gardiner, Suval, Thran
Korvak, Raketh, Xedar, Zidow
Decis, Vesok
That does not seem to be what has happened:
This is where they think they have created more choices.
The truth is that they have created less choice.
Their assumption is that A, B, C & D are all equal.
That now, with all buff times being the same, you simply choose which one you prefer the most. A, B, C or D. They think that each of these are "substantial".
That's not how this game works, because A (shield resistance) is still critical, the other three are simply "nice to have".
Resistance will always be more important than any other buff or power because you can't use other powers if you are dead.
Even you admit this, when you agreed that people should cover the gap with OTHER healing. (TSS/HE).
So now, instead of slotting 1 heal power to cover the gap you absolutely must choose OTHER heal powers (whereas right now, I' m running TB instead of TSS on my escort for example).
Again, a point where there is actually less choice through an unconsidered domino effect.
Then, there is this:
It's not an 11% gap, it's not 5s.
Runaway healing, and resistances in this game is an issue but this ignores the problem (power creep) and targets instead baseline mitigation.
Instead of a resistance reduction which would benefit pressure damage (and therefore to an extent all ships), this is a 10s gaping hole that benefits spike (limited amount of builds and ships).
For example, EPtS should be used to keep shields online longer, instead of stacking the power onto existing output to boost the overall resists. Or with EPtW, if I dip below my 100 energy mark, redirect emergency power to bring it back to 100, rather than add it to the top and take me to 160.
The game isnt really designed this way though, so a lot of stuff would have to change to make this feasible. Most obvious problem is that beam weapons suck without the cap-boosting juice.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=9167671#post9167671
You're getting caught up in the semantics of the power names.
So unless you're here to RP, this really has no place in the discussion at all.
Elite Defense Stovokor
You mean aside from powers like TSS, ES, RSP?
What? This creates a deeper valley.
20s of coverage followed by 10s of gap is about as "yo-yo" as anything gets in this game.
wont help my torp boat though-booooo
seriously? my crf bo3 setup bop melts sheild faces with ease through ANYTHING that hasent popped RSP, gimme a break.
100% uptime on epts is decent against pressure dmg or even non alpha tac dmg to an extent. But please.....a well timed alpha between omegas will kill anyone regardless of epts.
Ok, it will be creating gaps but... ES1 is almost on pair with EPtS1 when it comes to resists and ES3 is better by 10% when compared with EPtS3 (unless wiki lies). Get an eng/cruiser with ES on ride to give you protection during those 10 seconds IF you are attacked.
Antonio is right. This is a great change.
And you, escorts players - deal with it. You are supposed to be glass cannons.