This much we can agree on, but I was a bit confused by the rest of your post, as it seemed to me that you went to the trouble of scoffing at just about every one who ever had any sort of opinion on the Rommy faction.
Perhaps it would help if you make a more focused post complaining about one or two elements of the issue.
The lateness of the hour probably had to do with my lack of cohesion. To sum it up:
When they posted the first dev blog, DStahl's first set of answers, it was announced that Romulans would be forcibly allied to either the FED or the KDF. The reasoning was that this would be "the best of both worlds" for Romulan players, since they'd be able to use their unique ships, plus the ships of what faction they aligned with. That was mentioned since back then.
I was as disappointed as you by the whole concept. Why should Romulans have to ally with anyone? Why shouldn't we get our own bases? A sizeable part of the posters on the forums put down those that disagreed with the decision, giving every "reason" and excuse under the sun why it had to happen.
Ok, not much we can do about it, best focus on the positive and move on. Right? Wrong.
Because now, after it's been said that Romulans will get access to their allied faction's ships (just like it had been said before), a lot of those defenders of the Rom alliances are doing a 180. Look at the latest threads: "leaders need to boycott Romulans", "some things should remain sacred", et al. Some go as far as to say the Romulan faction shouldn't happen and that it's a mistake.
See the double-standard? When it affected a faction they didn't care for, that's totally fine, Cryptic made the right call and people should stop whining. When they perceive that same decision suddenly affects some idea of the integrity of a game that lets Federation captains fly Breen, Cardassian and Dominion ships, now it's intolerable and shouldn't be allowed!
All I'm saying is people should go back and read their reasonings and support behind the half-faction decision. Because they can just as easily be applied now to the ship issue. Is this really because Feds won't be able to fly D'Deridexi?
As I've mentioned, I'm upset at the whole concept of alliance, period. The difference? As a Romulan captain, I can choose not to use FED or KDF ships (and will exercise that right). I don't, however, have the right to refuse to pick a side.
And when it comes to the direction Cryptic is taking, how is that caused by Romulan players? It's not what most of us wanted. And I think most people who have been waiting to play as Romulans aren't interested in flying KDF or FED ships, anyway.
Because now, after it's been said that Romulans will get access to their allied faction's ships (just like it had been said before), a lot of those defenders of the Rom alliances are doing a 180. Look at the latest threads: "leaders need to boycott Romulans", "some things should remain sacred", et al. Some go as far as to say the Romulan faction shouldn't happen and that it's a mistake.
See the double-standard?
Ok , fist off thanks for the clarification !
Now having said that we still seem to disagree -- even when we agree ! :P
The reason is that I don't see the double standard , I see just ppl having opinions about the Rommy's and in some cases perhaps changes in opinions .
The best thing for me in these forums is when I can read (or respond to) a well thought out argument .
I do not have to agree , but it makes me think and I like that . That's what Star Trek used to do when I was younger .
I can also see what you are saying in regards to ppl having a double standard in regards to lockbox ships VS Rommy ships (as in some support the lockbox ships but don't want the Romulans to have Fed/Kdf ships) -- meaning that one alien ship for a faction is ok , but another ship is off limits .
And in that case I can see the double standard , but it's not something I feel I can 'blame' players for .
I'm not into the blame game against my fellow players . I only did it once or twice and that was uncomfortable enough .
But I do blame Cryptic for a slew of things . Sometimes I'm right . Some times I'm wrong . Some times I'm both .
I agree, and the OP makes excellent points. That's exactly what the thread link in my signature is about!
Thanks for the expansion that had "as much content as the last"
9 Episodes = 30+ episodes...?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's pronounced "S.T.O." "Stow" sounds idiotic! lol
Since this is a new faction (some debate that) that you will have to start from scratch on, I think this was an attempt to keep the people who already bought zen ships from being completely screwed and not be able to fly those ships, some people have spent hundreds of dollars for. I really do feel it was an attempt to appease the player base and give them a break.
However now, proving that this dev team cannot please anybody no matter what they do, everyone is screaming bloody murder.
You can't tell me that all of you same people wouldn't have raged if you DIDN'T have access you the ships you already paid for, or demanded some kind of refund or zen bonus, since you won't be needing them anymore.
However I can see a problem coming from this system. It will effectively make both KDF and FED obsolete, especially in the cruiser department. KDF pop has always been low because they haven't had the same content and to be honest, most people couldn't be bothered to restart a new char once they hit 20 to make a KDF char now. Feds have more ships, KDF has better ships, but I am sure most people will debate that.
Romulans sound like they will have much better ships that fed, and maybe on par with KDF, without the issue of low pop.
So given the choice of being able to play KDF for the better ships, or Fed for the more iconic/more variety of ships, AND have access to your own, new and improved (still waiting to see stats) ships? It is the best of both worlds with virtually no downside to play as a Romulan, aside from having to start over, but after a few months, that won't be an issue.
first of all, **** would never do anything to spare us losing money or what not.. that have shown that a hundred times.. thus why we had to buy the excelsior twice, and what not..
and no, i myself, like alot of other players would not have raged over not being able to use faction specific ships with a new faction that were purchased with zen.. we dont rage now over buying a klink ship and not being able to use it with feds.. the idea that we would have been upset about it is so far out in left feild, that im suprised that anyone with any sense would even try to use that as a shield for captics actions..
and as far as the dev team not being able to please everyone, ill agree that will never happen.. but... when you are making a game, that is based off of one of the largest ip's in the planet.. that is known for having the strongest, most loyal, and picky fallowers, when you decide to do something like add a romulan faction, you do it right.. you dont half TRIBBLE it to try to make as much money on as little investment.. the op is right about the freedome fighter scenario.. its tired and busted... they make it seem like the destruction of one planet among the maney the romulan empire controls would make the romulans virtually useless..
its a weak sauce story line (though i would expect nothing more from the writer they have chosen to go with. and while i was hoping we would have gotten a proper romulan faction, i was not suprised when i saw the fudged it up..
and to answer the op, it is **** that they are gonna have romulans flying around in other factions ships.. it cheapens all the factions as a whole when you do that.. pretty soon, there will be no factions.. the fact that the player pop. has responded in this way, and they just seem to ignore it is beyond stupid.. i know it probably wont happen, but like myself pretty much closing up shop in game (i find myself playing rift now and maybe logging into sto once every couple of weeks) i hope **** actually fails and learns a lesson from this **** they are putting out in may..
But that iron-clad reason ain't so iron-clad no more now is it? :P
Yes, absolutely. Cryptic isn't loading a patch to their contract with CBS or a change in copyright law. Their contract with CBS says CBS has approval rights to everything that goes in this game. CBS says they can't do that. That's really the end of it; Cryptic has absolutely no legal right whatsoever to just push forward and ignore CBS.
If you think CBS won't pull this license from a profitable venture for violating the license terms, talk to FASA and Last Unicorn Games, both of whom have had this exact IP yanked out from under them for doing things that I promise you (and I) would argue are completely sensible things that would have made a lot of money for all parties involved, and removing the license made everybody involved less money. CBS has the absolute right to dictate how their IP is used in for-profit ventures.
Having said the above, I'll now clarify those two stories. FASA had the rights to make a pen and paper RPG based on all the Star Trek properties that existed at the time they made their contract. After they began publishing their game, Star Trek: The Next Generation started. FASA assumed that their contract would cover future properties, when it in fact said no such thing. They published two TNG supplements, and Paramount (this was the late '80s, long before the merges and splits that left the license with CBS) yanked their license. They could have chosen to simply say "yes, the license covers TNG" and gotten a lot more future licensing fees from FASA as sales would have increased with the show's popularity, but for their own reasons, they yanked it. They didn't (or didn't solely) do it to punish FASA, they had their own reasons, but they mostly came down to FASA going against Paramount's vision for the franchise.
The second one was even simpler. LUG had the rights to make a pen and paper RPG based on Star Trek, and they HAD licensed the future properties. It was hugely successful as such things go, so much so that Wizards of the Coast purchased LUG solely to get this license. All the LUG employees were excited to be working for their new employer, and were blogging about how great it was going to be. They'd even gone through orientation and gotten their company shirts.
Then Paramount informed them that their contract had specified that if the company changed hands, Paramount had the right to remove the IP and give it to someone else. They exercised that right, giving the rights to Decipher. Suddenly WotC had an expensive purchase of a company that made a few card games that weren't very successful, one giant property they couldn't use, and one nearly-complete RPG that didn't use their own house system. They fired most of the LUG people (many of whom were immediately hired by Decipher to work on their Trek game, which later failed because Decipher didn't have the experience or desire to do a pen and paper game, they were just looking for the books to get them an "in" for their card games in book stores) and hastily finished up the Dune RPG for a limited run, then let it die.
Moral of this story; you cannot assume that just because something looks to us like it would do nothing but good for CBS that they will approve it, and you CAN assume that if they do not approve it, they won't shy away from shutting this game down. The Star Trek IP is their property, period. They let Cryptic borrow it under specific terms. If Cryptic tells you those terms don't let them do something, then those terms don't let them do that something. Nothing can change that but CBS.
You don't have to convince Cryptic that you want a T5 Connie. *THEY* want a T5 Connie too, although some of them understand CBS's reasons for not wanting it. If CBS said tomorrow "hey, you guys are green light; make a T5 Connie", I assure you it would get immediately placed into the development schedule, and a large marketing campaign organized around it. They probably wouldn't put it into immediate development, due to LOR, but they would immediately schedule WHEN it would be developed. They'd probably also throw in a lot of other TOS-related stuff, and spend some money on a great voice guest or two.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
its a weak sauce story line (though i would expect nothing more from the writer they have chosen to go with. and while i was hoping we would have gotten a proper romulan faction, i was not suprised when i saw the fudged it up..
and to answer the op, it is TRIBBLE that they are gonna have romulans flying around in other factions ships.. it cheapens all the factions as a whole when you do that.. pretty soon, there will be no factions.. the fact that the player pop. has responded in this way, and they just seem to ignore it is beyond stupid.. i know it probably wont happen, but like myself pretty much closing up shop in game (i find myself playing rift now and maybe logging into sto once every couple of weeks) i hope craptic actually fails and learns a lesson from this abortion they are putting out in may..
To be fair, I don't think their writer actually creates any of the story. I realize that when she gets interviewed by the various podcasts they give her a lot of importance under some delusion that STO's writer (like player Foundry authors do in their missions) gets to "write" the story, but its pretty clear the game's story is decided by the devs/higher ups at Cryptic. All the writer does is put it into words that we read on screen. I'm sure her opinion is listened to but in the end her actual decision making power is null.
As for all the factions being cheapened.... and the Romulan faction being a paper thin generic space elf faction.....well, I'm pretty sure their metric tell them they will make money off this. Yeah, that's all I can say about that. There's lots of valid arguments against it but in the end Cryptic will make money off the IP's imagery and fanbase while providing a substandart product. *shrugs* Its Cryptic, what'd you expect?
Oh sure, you'll get to fly warbirds of all types, including the fan favorite D'D, but without being part of the empire but instead being part of a counter empire culture.... it just seems like too bitter a pill to swallow for hard core Romulan fans. I'm not such a type of fan so I was thinking of making a sci alt to experience the new story content but as it gets closer to release I find myself thinking.... meh.
Have you seen the actual licensing agreements for STO?
Nope. Just the numerous statements, both publicly and privately, from numerous employees and former employees who have seen them. They've been clear about this arrangement since before beta. Even getting the starter Connie in was a fight.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Maybe. Maybe not. You're assuming that people would fly opposite faction ships. I'm not sure it could work. Many people (including myself) fly lockbox ships because such ships are unique/it's silly/it's vanity gear/have special abilities, but I don't see anything like that if you offer me to fly Fed ship with my kdf characters. That may be silly but that's it. Fed or KDF ships have nothing special, you can find anything you like in your faction's shipyard.
If I want the new fed or kdf ship, then i'll likely give it to one of my existing characters. If I play a Romulan in may (and it's just speculation) then I will probably make it a more RP character, with a Romulan crew, a Romulan ship, since I already have 3 chars with the best possible gear, all OP goodies and a lot of resources. I think most Romulans won't be normal alts, since most of us already have at least one very well developped character able to use new fed or kdf ships. I mean if i want to do something silly I'll just do it with my main char.
A new faction makes little sense if all you want is creating another alt you will play like any other random character.
Well, note, my assumption is rooted in the idea that two thirds of Romulans and Klingons who buy ships would NOT buy other faction ships. And even if none would, the all Fed ship scenario is probably the strongest for Cryptic. The point is that the Fed ships are the most profitable, likely to a point where it's better for Cryptic to just allow ther factions to buy them.
It would probably make the most sense on the whole, financially, if all C-Store ships were claim able by all factions.
Now, in game or earnable ships? Keep those locked.
But keeping Klingon or Rpmulan C-Store ships from Fed players just caps their sales potential. Keeping Fed ships from Romulans or Klingons? Well, that just creates demand for unprofitable C - Store releases.
All in all, I could see keeping Feds from flying Klingon or Romulan ships but not vice versa mainly because that might increase numbers for the smaller factions and Feds don't the help.
The lateness of the hour probably had to do with my lack of cohesion. To sum it up:
When they posted the first dev blog, DStahl's first set of answers, it was announced that Romulans would be forcibly allied to either the FED or the KDF. The reasoning was that this would be "the best of both worlds" for Romulan players, since they'd be able to use their unique ships, plus the ships of what faction they aligned with. That was mentioned since back then.
I was as disappointed as you by the whole concept. Why should Romulans have to ally with anyone? Why shouldn't we get our own bases? A sizeable part of the posters on the forums put down those that disagreed with the decision, giving every "reason" and excuse under the sun why it had to happen.
Ok, not much we can do about it, best focus on the positive and move on. Right? Wrong.
Because now, after it's been said that Romulans will get access to their allied faction's ships (just like it had been said before), a lot of those defenders of the Rom alliances are doing a 180. Look at the latest threads: "leaders need to boycott Romulans", "some things should remain sacred", et al. Some go as far as to say the Romulan faction shouldn't happen and that it's a mistake.
See the double-standard? When it affected a faction they didn't care for, that's totally fine, Cryptic made the right call and people should stop whining. When they perceive that same decision suddenly affects some idea of the integrity of a game that lets Federation captains fly Breen, Cardassian and Dominion ships, now it's intolerable and shouldn't be allowed!
All I'm saying is people should go back and read their reasonings and support behind the half-faction decision. Because they can just as easily be applied now to the ship issue. Is this really because Feds won't be able to fly D'Deridexi?
As I've mentioned, I'm upset at the whole concept of alliance, period. The difference? As a Romulan captain, I can choose not to use FED or KDF ships (and will exercise that right). I don't, however, have the right to refuse to pick a side.
And when it comes to the direction Cryptic is taking, how is that caused by Romulan players? It's not what most of us wanted. And I think most people who have been waiting to play as Romulans aren't interested in flying KDF or FED ships, anyway.
I don't think you understand some of the posts you're criticizing.
I'm in favor of alliance ships. A lot of people didn't accept that Dstahl's was saying that when he first posted that. It isn't that they suddenly flipped on the idea. It's that they were in denial about it. I posted multiple threads suggesting ways to make it work smoother and was bombarded with people who seemed to think I was suggesting Romulans claim Fed ships rather than responding to Cryptic's stated plan and offering suggestions to offset the idea.
I'm saying that Romulans are probably only worth doing if they CAN fly Fed ships. I think any opposition to the concept, in broad form, is pretty much pure pettiness. Whether it's from Klingon, Federation, or Romulan players.
I think Cryptic can find a way to do this that is more consistent and sensible... And that it would benefit them to do that. Even if it's just a hull retexture and a blurb about Romulans building the ships based on Fed/Klingn designs.
But I don't really have very much sympathy for the idea of simply throwing out Roms flying Fed or Klingon ally ships. I think it's petty and unrealistic. I think this is one of those points where Cryptic's willingness to do extra factions hinges on them doing it this way.
Nope. Just the numerous statements, both publicly and privately, from numerous employees and former employees who have seen them. They've been clear about this arrangement since before beta. Even getting the starter Connie in was a fight.
Yup. There was apparently some displeasure from CBS that the starter Connie exists at all.
Now, from what I gather... CBS is typically pretty quiet. But an interesting thing to note is that Jesse Heinig, now at Cryptic, was in charge of the Decipher Trek RPG. And the current CBS rep in charge of Trek worked for him at Decipher. So I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't informal communication.
And I also imagine it mostly does down to branding issues rather than lore.
I'm not into the blame game against my fellow players . I only did it once or twice and that was uncomfortable enough .
But I do blame Cryptic for a slew of things . Sometimes I'm right . Some times I'm wrong . Some times I'm both .
It's not a blame game, I don't think. I'm saying that at this point, it's spilled milk.... we can cry over it, but as the past has shown us, it's not going to matter. We all seem to be equal in not getting what we wanted, in many ways, shapes and forms.
I AM saying, let's not flame the Romulan players before the thing even launches. A lot of us won't be fying non-Rom ships anyway!
I'm saying that Romulans are probably only worth doing if they CAN fly Fed ships. I think any opposition to the concept, in broad form, is pretty much pure pettiness. Whether it's from Klingon, Federation, or Romulan players.
But I don't really have very much sympathy for the idea of simply throwing out Roms flying Fed or Klingon ally ships. I think it's petty and unrealistic. I think this is one of those points where Cryptic's willingness to do extra factions hinges on them doing it this way.
I respectfully disagree with you on the point of Romulans only being worth doing if they can fly Fed ships. Why fly another faction's ships when I'll have actual Romulan ships?
(Personally, however, I don't have an issue with other people doing it, if that's what they wish.)
I will, however, concede the point that this will be their model for future factions, many of whom don't have as big a variety of ships -the Cardassians come to mind, for one- so I can understand where you're coming from.
I will, however, concede the point that this will be their model for future factions, many of whom don't have as big a variety of ships -the Cardassians come to mind, for one- so I can understand where you're coming from.
They're not going to make any more factions. Cryptic has made it very clear that we're stuck with just two (or one and a half if you prefer).
They're not going to make any more factions. Cryptic has made it very clear that we're stuck with just two (or one and a half if you prefer).
Really, cause I seem to recall that Dan said earlier this year that the "Not Season 8" update as it was known as at the time would pave the way for how future factions will be introduced.
Really, cause I seem to recall that Dan said earlier this year that the "Not Season 8" update as it was known as at the time would pave the way for how future factions will be introduced.
He is talking about Factions as in the Fed or KDF type rather than he Micro-Faction type we are getting with the Romulans. We will get more Micro-Factions in the future but they will never be full Factions with their own dedicated full storylines, bases, etc.
Personally, I'm fine with Micro-Factions.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
If Feds / Klinks don't get to fly Warbirds then I think I can live with the faction (even though I want a real RSE). However, given the choice between more rep grids and more mini factions I will choose mini faction every time. And a Cardassian / New Dominion faction would be awesome ...
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
It's not a blame game, I don't think. I'm saying that at this point, it's spilled milk.... we can cry over it, but as the past has shown us, it's not going to matter. We all seem to be equal in not getting what we wanted, in many ways, shapes and forms.
I AM saying, let's not flame the Romulan players before the thing even launches. A lot of us won't be fying non-Rom ships anyway!
I respectfully disagree with you on the point of Romulans only being worth doing if they can fly Fed ships. Why fly another faction's ships when I'll have actual Romulan ships?
(Personally, however, I don't have an issue with other people doing it, if that's what they wish.)
I will, however, concede the point that this will be their model for future factions, many of whom don't have as big a variety of ships -the Cardassians come to mind, for one- so I can understand where you're coming from.
I'm not talking about being worth doing from your perspective. I'm talking about being worth doing from Cryptic's.
I imagine we'll see close to ten Romulan ships. Then we'll see C-Store and fleet versions of those ships.
But I don't think Cryptic will be able to justify making new ones beyond that at the kind of rate they can justify making Fed ships... And they're probably hoping that Romulans make creating more Klingon ships easier to justify as well.
I'm fine with micro-factions for everybody except Romulans and Borg (and Dominion).
Well, the Romulans we are playing are a Micro-Faction: they are one part of the whole. We're not playing all Romulans. We're playing the Reunification sub-group of all Romulans. Our primary enemies will seem to be the Tal Shiar sub-group of all Romulans. There is probably a third sub-group of Romulans who do not wish to be under the Tal Shair/Iconian thumb nor do they wish to be reunified with the Vulcans - that would have been Sela's original group.
Canon fractured the Romulan Empire. This is just how STO wants to interpret that canon.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Giving it some more thought...while I can se its economically unfeasable to have any more full factions I wonder why did Cryptic not make the Rom players part of the RSE? I mean, content is already shared between red and blue so its not like adding a green to the queus would matter.
Not much would've needed to be changed, instead of a space elf adventurer that starts out as a farmboy you could start as a low ranking captain in the RSE and throughout the levelling missions you discover empress sela is possessed, under the thumb of the iconians, is really her MU duplicate, etc, etc, etc, and have to join with a rebel force made up RSE citizens and however much of the imperial senate has managed to survive and work towards bringing her and her puppet masters down. THAT would've been a satisfying Romulan story, so why go through the whole Romulan Republic nonsense?
Giving it some more thought...while I can se its economically unfeasable to have any more full factions I wonder why did Cryptic not make the Rom players part of the RSE? I mean, content is already shared between red and blue so its not like adding a green to the queus would matter.
Not much would've needed to be changed, instead of a space elf adventurer that starts out as a farmboy you could start as a low ranking captain in the RSE and throughout the levelling missions you discover empress sela is possessed, under the thumb of the iconians, is really her MU duplicate, etc, etc, etc, and have to join with a rebel force made up RSE citizens and however much of the imperial senate has managed to survive and work towards bringing her and her puppet masters down. THAT would've been a satisfying Romulan story, so why go through the whole Romulan Republic nonsense?
Probably because an RSE would not ally with the Federation or Klingon Empire. So you couldn't make a Micro-Faction from the RSE and use an ally system. It would need to be its own Faction, with its own stories, own Fleetbases, etc. That would be too much work.
Plus Cryptic had the leader of the RSE captured by Iconians.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Giving it some more thought...while I can se its economically unfeasable to have any more full factions I wonder why did Cryptic not make the Rom players part of the RSE?
Well they have given a lot of arguments and/or excuses as to why they dont want a separate faction (including such as PVP queue problems, fleets/clans, etc), which are probably all part of the internal reasoning. It would definitely be more difficult. Long-term it would be vastly better for the game to have three (or more) poles of activity. Short-term it probably costs too much for the gains they expect to pull, even if it means a long game is less likely to develop. At this point they are probably right--the game has so many shortcomings for even basic playability that this one decision is not even significant to long-term play.
Probably because an RSE would not ally with the Federation or Klingon Empire
That's a lost opportunity though. RSE could in fact ally with fed or kdf on a short-term basis, as they have done in lore. They have to be an independent entity to move like that though. That is what we have lost.
That's a lost opportunity though. RSE could in fact ally with fed or kdf on a short-term basis, as they have done in lore. They have to be an independent entity to move like that though. That is what we have lost.
Yeah, but let's keep in mind that the Klingons attacked the Romulan Empire and retook the Khitomer sector after Romulus was destroyed. I don't believe the RSE would ally with the Klingons after they did that. At this point there's just too much mistrust and hatred between the two groups.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Yeah, but let's keep in mind that the Klingons attacked the Romulan Empire and retook the Khitomer sector after Romulus was destroyed. I don't believe the RSE would ally with the Klingons after they did that. At this point there's just too much mistrust and hatred between the two groups.
Which explains perfectly why it is so ridiculous for the KDF to accept Romulans into their innermost secret operations, doesnt it. Again: pardon us while we go kill Romulans who are massing in the Yon Nebula, make yourself at home in our fleet starbases we'll brb.
Which explains perfectly why it is so ridiculous for the KDF to accept Romulans into their innermost secret operations, doesnt it. Again: pardon us while we go kill Romulans who are massing in the Yon Nebula, make yourself at home in our fleet starbases we'll brb.
But, again, these are a particular sub-group of Romulans. They have intentionally set themselves apart of the rest of the RSE and are trying for peaceful coexisitence. The KDF is probably using the Republic as a launching point for further actions into Rom territory.
Plus, let's step outside of the metagame for a minute. There's nothing exciting or important about Fleetbase that it makes any difference if Rom allies are in there or not. It's not like they can sabotage your Fleetbase or some-such.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Probably because an RSE would not ally with the Federation or Klingon Empire. So you couldn't make a Micro-Faction from the RSE and use an ally system. It would need to be its own Faction, with its own stories, own Fleetbases, etc. That would be too much work.
Plus Cryptic had the leader of the RSE captured by Iconians.
Exactly, so tehy could have the players BE one of those factions the empire splintered off to, working to restore the empire while calling themselves the RSE. They could still do the whole ally thing with the Feds and KDF by saying that they desperately need the resources and if they're offering why not use their resources while preserving their own? The key aspect of all this is that the Romulans retain the cultural aspects fans know and love them for, instead of becoming a federation-lite.
I'm not saying they would need to be a full faction at all, jsut saying that the way they shoehorned this Romulan republic when players could've just as easily been part of a RSE faction.
Which explains perfectly why it is so ridiculous for the KDF to accept Romulans into their innermost secret operations, doesnt it. Again: pardon us while we go kill Romulans who are massing in the Yon Nebula, make yourself at home in our fleet starbases we'll brb.
Internal consistency in trek? What arcane magicks are these?? Besides, they've kept the Fed/Klingon war going on instead of taking the more sensible path of stopping it. It IS the more sensible thing to do even from their point of view, since it'd make sharing whatever content they manage to get out easier across both factions.
I can only assume its an apeacement to PWE, leaving the door open for a greater emphasis in PvP and the greater ocurrence of P2W which PWE seems to prefer.
Let me reiterate a point I've made before: The Romulan Star Empire is GONE. The last Praetor is missing. The Empress is missing. The capital world has been destroyed. Given the politics of the Empire as revealed in canon and in the novels that have obviously been used as inspiration (given some of the place-names), many of the Fleet commanders and subcommanders do not feel that they owe fealty to the Empire, but rather to particular people or places in the Empire; that's one of the reasons mnhei'sahe seems so impenetrable to non-Romulans, it doesn't necessarily follow our (or Klingon's) notions of "honor".
Some of the factions within the Fleet have joined together to start a new Romulan Republic at Mol'Rihan. Others are trying (and failing) to continue the Empire under the thumb of the Tal Shiar - and these have made themselves the enemies of the new Republic. On Mol'Rihan, the Romulans are already soliciting the assistance of Starfleet and the KDF to defend them from their brothers who still follow the Tal Shiar factions; why do you boggle at the idea that this cooperation might extend into space?
Comments
The lateness of the hour probably had to do with my lack of cohesion. To sum it up:
When they posted the first dev blog, DStahl's first set of answers, it was announced that Romulans would be forcibly allied to either the FED or the KDF. The reasoning was that this would be "the best of both worlds" for Romulan players, since they'd be able to use their unique ships, plus the ships of what faction they aligned with. That was mentioned since back then.
I was as disappointed as you by the whole concept. Why should Romulans have to ally with anyone? Why shouldn't we get our own bases? A sizeable part of the posters on the forums put down those that disagreed with the decision, giving every "reason" and excuse under the sun why it had to happen.
Ok, not much we can do about it, best focus on the positive and move on. Right? Wrong.
Because now, after it's been said that Romulans will get access to their allied faction's ships (just like it had been said before), a lot of those defenders of the Rom alliances are doing a 180. Look at the latest threads: "leaders need to boycott Romulans", "some things should remain sacred", et al. Some go as far as to say the Romulan faction shouldn't happen and that it's a mistake.
See the double-standard? When it affected a faction they didn't care for, that's totally fine, Cryptic made the right call and people should stop whining. When they perceive that same decision suddenly affects some idea of the integrity of a game that lets Federation captains fly Breen, Cardassian and Dominion ships, now it's intolerable and shouldn't be allowed!
All I'm saying is people should go back and read their reasonings and support behind the half-faction decision. Because they can just as easily be applied now to the ship issue. Is this really because Feds won't be able to fly D'Deridexi?
As I've mentioned, I'm upset at the whole concept of alliance, period. The difference? As a Romulan captain, I can choose not to use FED or KDF ships (and will exercise that right). I don't, however, have the right to refuse to pick a side.
And when it comes to the direction Cryptic is taking, how is that caused by Romulan players? It's not what most of us wanted. And I think most people who have been waiting to play as Romulans aren't interested in flying KDF or FED ships, anyway.
Ok , fist off thanks for the clarification !
Now having said that we still seem to disagree -- even when we agree ! :P
The reason is that I don't see the double standard , I see just ppl having opinions about the Rommy's and in some cases perhaps changes in opinions .
The best thing for me in these forums is when I can read (or respond to) a well thought out argument .
I do not have to agree , but it makes me think and I like that . That's what Star Trek used to do when I was younger .
I can also see what you are saying in regards to ppl having a double standard in regards to lockbox ships VS Rommy ships (as in some support the lockbox ships but don't want the Romulans to have Fed/Kdf ships) -- meaning that one alien ship for a faction is ok , but another ship is off limits .
And in that case I can see the double standard , but it's not something I feel I can 'blame' players for .
I'm not into the blame game against my fellow players . I only did it once or twice and that was uncomfortable enough .
But I do blame Cryptic for a slew of things . Sometimes I'm right . Some times I'm wrong . Some times I'm both .
9 Episodes = 30+ episodes...?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's pronounced "S.T.O." "Stow" sounds idiotic! lol
first of all, **** would never do anything to spare us losing money or what not.. that have shown that a hundred times.. thus why we had to buy the excelsior twice, and what not..
and no, i myself, like alot of other players would not have raged over not being able to use faction specific ships with a new faction that were purchased with zen.. we dont rage now over buying a klink ship and not being able to use it with feds.. the idea that we would have been upset about it is so far out in left feild, that im suprised that anyone with any sense would even try to use that as a shield for captics actions..
and as far as the dev team not being able to please everyone, ill agree that will never happen.. but... when you are making a game, that is based off of one of the largest ip's in the planet.. that is known for having the strongest, most loyal, and picky fallowers, when you decide to do something like add a romulan faction, you do it right.. you dont half TRIBBLE it to try to make as much money on as little investment.. the op is right about the freedome fighter scenario.. its tired and busted... they make it seem like the destruction of one planet among the maney the romulan empire controls would make the romulans virtually useless..
its a weak sauce story line (though i would expect nothing more from the writer they have chosen to go with. and while i was hoping we would have gotten a proper romulan faction, i was not suprised when i saw the fudged it up..
and to answer the op, it is **** that they are gonna have romulans flying around in other factions ships.. it cheapens all the factions as a whole when you do that.. pretty soon, there will be no factions.. the fact that the player pop. has responded in this way, and they just seem to ignore it is beyond stupid.. i know it probably wont happen, but like myself pretty much closing up shop in game (i find myself playing rift now and maybe logging into sto once every couple of weeks) i hope **** actually fails and learns a lesson from this **** they are putting out in may..
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost
Yes, absolutely. Cryptic isn't loading a patch to their contract with CBS or a change in copyright law. Their contract with CBS says CBS has approval rights to everything that goes in this game. CBS says they can't do that. That's really the end of it; Cryptic has absolutely no legal right whatsoever to just push forward and ignore CBS.
If you think CBS won't pull this license from a profitable venture for violating the license terms, talk to FASA and Last Unicorn Games, both of whom have had this exact IP yanked out from under them for doing things that I promise you (and I) would argue are completely sensible things that would have made a lot of money for all parties involved, and removing the license made everybody involved less money. CBS has the absolute right to dictate how their IP is used in for-profit ventures.
Having said the above, I'll now clarify those two stories. FASA had the rights to make a pen and paper RPG based on all the Star Trek properties that existed at the time they made their contract. After they began publishing their game, Star Trek: The Next Generation started. FASA assumed that their contract would cover future properties, when it in fact said no such thing. They published two TNG supplements, and Paramount (this was the late '80s, long before the merges and splits that left the license with CBS) yanked their license. They could have chosen to simply say "yes, the license covers TNG" and gotten a lot more future licensing fees from FASA as sales would have increased with the show's popularity, but for their own reasons, they yanked it. They didn't (or didn't solely) do it to punish FASA, they had their own reasons, but they mostly came down to FASA going against Paramount's vision for the franchise.
The second one was even simpler. LUG had the rights to make a pen and paper RPG based on Star Trek, and they HAD licensed the future properties. It was hugely successful as such things go, so much so that Wizards of the Coast purchased LUG solely to get this license. All the LUG employees were excited to be working for their new employer, and were blogging about how great it was going to be. They'd even gone through orientation and gotten their company shirts.
Then Paramount informed them that their contract had specified that if the company changed hands, Paramount had the right to remove the IP and give it to someone else. They exercised that right, giving the rights to Decipher. Suddenly WotC had an expensive purchase of a company that made a few card games that weren't very successful, one giant property they couldn't use, and one nearly-complete RPG that didn't use their own house system. They fired most of the LUG people (many of whom were immediately hired by Decipher to work on their Trek game, which later failed because Decipher didn't have the experience or desire to do a pen and paper game, they were just looking for the books to get them an "in" for their card games in book stores) and hastily finished up the Dune RPG for a limited run, then let it die.
Moral of this story; you cannot assume that just because something looks to us like it would do nothing but good for CBS that they will approve it, and you CAN assume that if they do not approve it, they won't shy away from shutting this game down. The Star Trek IP is their property, period. They let Cryptic borrow it under specific terms. If Cryptic tells you those terms don't let them do something, then those terms don't let them do that something. Nothing can change that but CBS.
You don't have to convince Cryptic that you want a T5 Connie. *THEY* want a T5 Connie too, although some of them understand CBS's reasons for not wanting it. If CBS said tomorrow "hey, you guys are green light; make a T5 Connie", I assure you it would get immediately placed into the development schedule, and a large marketing campaign organized around it. They probably wouldn't put it into immediate development, due to LOR, but they would immediately schedule WHEN it would be developed. They'd probably also throw in a lot of other TOS-related stuff, and spend some money on a great voice guest or two.
Have you seen the actual licensing agreements for STO?
To be fair, I don't think their writer actually creates any of the story. I realize that when she gets interviewed by the various podcasts they give her a lot of importance under some delusion that STO's writer (like player Foundry authors do in their missions) gets to "write" the story, but its pretty clear the game's story is decided by the devs/higher ups at Cryptic. All the writer does is put it into words that we read on screen. I'm sure her opinion is listened to but in the end her actual decision making power is null.
As for all the factions being cheapened.... and the Romulan faction being a paper thin generic space elf faction.....well, I'm pretty sure their metric tell them they will make money off this. Yeah, that's all I can say about that. There's lots of valid arguments against it but in the end Cryptic will make money off the IP's imagery and fanbase while providing a substandart product. *shrugs* Its Cryptic, what'd you expect?
Oh sure, you'll get to fly warbirds of all types, including the fan favorite D'D, but without being part of the empire but instead being part of a counter empire culture.... it just seems like too bitter a pill to swallow for hard core Romulan fans. I'm not such a type of fan so I was thinking of making a sci alt to experience the new story content but as it gets closer to release I find myself thinking.... meh.
Nope. Just the numerous statements, both publicly and privately, from numerous employees and former employees who have seen them. They've been clear about this arrangement since before beta. Even getting the starter Connie in was a fight.
Well, note, my assumption is rooted in the idea that two thirds of Romulans and Klingons who buy ships would NOT buy other faction ships. And even if none would, the all Fed ship scenario is probably the strongest for Cryptic. The point is that the Fed ships are the most profitable, likely to a point where it's better for Cryptic to just allow ther factions to buy them.
It would probably make the most sense on the whole, financially, if all C-Store ships were claim able by all factions.
Now, in game or earnable ships? Keep those locked.
But keeping Klingon or Rpmulan C-Store ships from Fed players just caps their sales potential. Keeping Fed ships from Romulans or Klingons? Well, that just creates demand for unprofitable C - Store releases.
All in all, I could see keeping Feds from flying Klingon or Romulan ships but not vice versa mainly because that might increase numbers for the smaller factions and Feds don't the help.
I don't think you understand some of the posts you're criticizing.
I'm in favor of alliance ships. A lot of people didn't accept that Dstahl's was saying that when he first posted that. It isn't that they suddenly flipped on the idea. It's that they were in denial about it. I posted multiple threads suggesting ways to make it work smoother and was bombarded with people who seemed to think I was suggesting Romulans claim Fed ships rather than responding to Cryptic's stated plan and offering suggestions to offset the idea.
I'm saying that Romulans are probably only worth doing if they CAN fly Fed ships. I think any opposition to the concept, in broad form, is pretty much pure pettiness. Whether it's from Klingon, Federation, or Romulan players.
I think Cryptic can find a way to do this that is more consistent and sensible... And that it would benefit them to do that. Even if it's just a hull retexture and a blurb about Romulans building the ships based on Fed/Klingn designs.
But I don't really have very much sympathy for the idea of simply throwing out Roms flying Fed or Klingon ally ships. I think it's petty and unrealistic. I think this is one of those points where Cryptic's willingness to do extra factions hinges on them doing it this way.
Yup. There was apparently some displeasure from CBS that the starter Connie exists at all.
Now, from what I gather... CBS is typically pretty quiet. But an interesting thing to note is that Jesse Heinig, now at Cryptic, was in charge of the Decipher Trek RPG. And the current CBS rep in charge of Trek worked for him at Decipher. So I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't informal communication.
And I also imagine it mostly does down to branding issues rather than lore.
It's not a blame game, I don't think. I'm saying that at this point, it's spilled milk.... we can cry over it, but as the past has shown us, it's not going to matter. We all seem to be equal in not getting what we wanted, in many ways, shapes and forms.
I AM saying, let's not flame the Romulan players before the thing even launches. A lot of us won't be fying non-Rom ships anyway!
I respectfully disagree with you on the point of Romulans only being worth doing if they can fly Fed ships. Why fly another faction's ships when I'll have actual Romulan ships?
(Personally, however, I don't have an issue with other people doing it, if that's what they wish.)
I will, however, concede the point that this will be their model for future factions, many of whom don't have as big a variety of ships -the Cardassians come to mind, for one- so I can understand where you're coming from.
They're not going to make any more factions. Cryptic has made it very clear that we're stuck with just two (or one and a half if you prefer).
Really, cause I seem to recall that Dan said earlier this year that the "Not Season 8" update as it was known as at the time would pave the way for how future factions will be introduced.
Personally, I'm fine with Micro-Factions.
- Judge Aaron Satie
I'm not talking about being worth doing from your perspective. I'm talking about being worth doing from Cryptic's.
I imagine we'll see close to ten Romulan ships. Then we'll see C-Store and fleet versions of those ships.
But I don't think Cryptic will be able to justify making new ones beyond that at the kind of rate they can justify making Fed ships... And they're probably hoping that Romulans make creating more Klingon ships easier to justify as well.
Canon fractured the Romulan Empire. This is just how STO wants to interpret that canon.
Not much would've needed to be changed, instead of a space elf adventurer that starts out as a farmboy you could start as a low ranking captain in the RSE and throughout the levelling missions you discover empress sela is possessed, under the thumb of the iconians, is really her MU duplicate, etc, etc, etc, and have to join with a rebel force made up RSE citizens and however much of the imperial senate has managed to survive and work towards bringing her and her puppet masters down. THAT would've been a satisfying Romulan story, so why go through the whole Romulan Republic nonsense?
Plus Cryptic had the leader of the RSE captured by Iconians.
Which explains perfectly why it is so ridiculous for the KDF to accept Romulans into their innermost secret operations, doesnt it. Again: pardon us while we go kill Romulans who are massing in the Yon Nebula, make yourself at home in our fleet starbases we'll brb.
Plus, let's step outside of the metagame for a minute. There's nothing exciting or important about Fleetbase that it makes any difference if Rom allies are in there or not. It's not like they can sabotage your Fleetbase or some-such.
Federomulans are terrible.
They won't even bother using a perfectly good opportunity to sabotage their rivals.
Exactly, so tehy could have the players BE one of those factions the empire splintered off to, working to restore the empire while calling themselves the RSE. They could still do the whole ally thing with the Feds and KDF by saying that they desperately need the resources and if they're offering why not use their resources while preserving their own? The key aspect of all this is that the Romulans retain the cultural aspects fans know and love them for, instead of becoming a federation-lite.
I'm not saying they would need to be a full faction at all, jsut saying that the way they shoehorned this Romulan republic when players could've just as easily been part of a RSE faction.
Internal consistency in trek? What arcane magicks are these?? Besides, they've kept the Fed/Klingon war going on instead of taking the more sensible path of stopping it. It IS the more sensible thing to do even from their point of view, since it'd make sharing whatever content they manage to get out easier across both factions.
I can only assume its an apeacement to PWE, leaving the door open for a greater emphasis in PvP and the greater ocurrence of P2W which PWE seems to prefer.
Let me reiterate a point I've made before: The Romulan Star Empire is GONE. The last Praetor is missing. The Empress is missing. The capital world has been destroyed. Given the politics of the Empire as revealed in canon and in the novels that have obviously been used as inspiration (given some of the place-names), many of the Fleet commanders and subcommanders do not feel that they owe fealty to the Empire, but rather to particular people or places in the Empire; that's one of the reasons mnhei'sahe seems so impenetrable to non-Romulans, it doesn't necessarily follow our (or Klingon's) notions of "honor".
Some of the factions within the Fleet have joined together to start a new Romulan Republic at Mol'Rihan. Others are trying (and failing) to continue the Empire under the thumb of the Tal Shiar - and these have made themselves the enemies of the new Republic. On Mol'Rihan, the Romulans are already soliciting the assistance of Starfleet and the KDF to defend them from their brothers who still follow the Tal Shiar factions; why do you boggle at the idea that this cooperation might extend into space?