To copy you, that's a stupid argument and you know it. You do know what science fiction is right? Fiction based on science? We have pretty good scientific evidence to suggest that nobody in their right mind would ever GIVE AWAY their best military technology for nothing to a sworn enemy freshly turned ally. If you're having trouble with this, try looking up the definition of science fiction and scientific observation - that should help you understand science a bit more so you don't get so hung up on the fiction part because, as Isaac Asimov said, they temper each other. If you drop the science you only have fiction.
You seem to think that I am not allowed to have my opinion. Why are you then so clearly entitled to having your own opinion? Why is it so superior to all other opinions? Please explain your superiority to we poor inferior infidels on the STO forum who should dare not agree with you. Explain your brilliant, superlative, gaseous, genius to us oh great cosmic one.
To copy you, that's a stupid argument and you know it. You do know what science fiction is right? Fiction based on science? We have pretty good scientific evidence to suggest that nobody in their right mind would ever GIVE AWAY their best military technology for nothing to a sworn enemy freshly turned ally. If you're having trouble with this, try looking up the definition of science fiction and scientific observation - that should help you understand science a bit more so you don't get so hung up on the fiction part because, as Isaac Asimov said, they temper each other. If you drop the science you only have fiction.
And yet the Romulans gave Cloaks to the Klingons.
You seem to think that I am not allowed to have my opinion. Why are you then so clearly entitled to having your own opinion? Why is it so superior to all other opinions? Please explain your superiority to we poor inferior infidels on the STO forum who should dare not agree with you. Explain your brilliant, superlative, gaseous, genius to us oh great cosmic one.
You keep thinking this is personal. It has nothing to do with you or your opinion. It's entirely about this idea you keep spewing that someone Trek must follow the "normal" rules of logic. Trek has nothing to do with normal, logic, or common sense. Trek's canon is 716 episodes and 11 movies of writers doing whatever they wanted to make the story work. Trek has nothing to do with how things would really work if this really was the future. Telling what we wouldn't do in the real world has no bearing on what people have done in Trek canon.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
No. You're wrong. They TRADED a technology to the Klingons. This is something that does occasionally happen in real life and can be observed scientificially - making it science fiction that the Romulans would do such a thing and not fantasy.
give
[giv] verb, gave, giv?en, giv?ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1. to present voluntarily and without expecting compensation; bestow: to give a birthday present to someone.
2. to hand to someone: Give me that plate, please.
3. to place in someone's care: If you give me your coat, I'll put it in the closet.
4. to grant (permission, opportunity, etc.) to someone: Give me a chance.
5. to impart or communicate: to give advice; to give a cold to someone.
noun
1. the act or process of buying, selling, or exchanging commodities, at either wholesale or retail, within a country or between countries: domestic trade; foreign trade.
2. a purchase or sale; business deal or transaction.
3. an exchange of items, usually without payment of money.
4. any occupation pursued as a business or livelihood.
5. some line of skilled manual or mechanical work; craft: the trade of a carpenter; printer's trade.
You keep thinking this is personal. It has nothing to do with you or your opinion. It's entirely about this idea you keep spewing that someone Trek must follow the "normal" rules of logic. Trek has nothing to do with normal, logic, or common sense. Trek's canon is 716 episodes and 11 movies of writers doing whatever they wanted to make the story work. Trek has nothing to do with how things would really work if this really was the future. Telling what we wouldn't do in the real world has no bearing on what people have done in Trek canon.
I don't think you understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. The fact is that CBS and Cryptic will do whatever they want to and my opinion has no bearing on them. My opinion is that they are doing something which is not realistic. Not sure why you can't grasp that dude, but it's very irritating to have you continue to argue that my opinion is not valid because "CBS said so" and "you don't care about Star Trek canon." That makes it pretty personal though. You should expect similar reciprocation any time you tell somebody that their opinion is wrong with invalidating argumentation. That is a personal attack.
People are allowed to have and share their opinions, whether or not you agree with them, your highness. You are not the king of the STO forum so please stop telling me what my opinion should be. As I've said, you don't have to like my opinion. At this point I'd be insulted if you did.
At any rate, this is silly. You disagree with me. Fine. Get over it. I'm moving on. You should too. :cool:
Sorry for hijacking this thread OP. It was not intentional. I should know better than to feed the trolls.
"Science fiction is a genre of fiction in which the stories often tell about science and technology of the future. It is important to note that science fiction has a relationship with the principles of science; these stories involve partially true-partially fictitious laws or theories of science. It should not be completely unbelievable, because it then ventures in to the genre fantasy."
No. You're wrong. They TRADED a technology to the Klingons. This is something that does occasionally happen in real life and can be observed scientificially - making it science fiction that the Romulans would do such a thing and not fantasy.
Yes, they traded it, and the Federation is getting things back from the Unification Roms too - in part they are getting a BIG ALLY in an area of space that is essentially unknown to them. Get it? They are giving X and getting Y.
I don't think you understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. The fact is that CBS and Cryptic will do whatever they want to and my opinion has no bearing on them. My opinion is that they are doing something which is not realistic. Not sure why you can't grasp that dude, but it's very irritating to have you continue to argue that my opinion is not valid because "CBS said so" and "you don't care about Star Trek canon." That makes it pretty personal though. You should expect similar reciprocation any time you tell somebody that their opinion is wrong with invalidating argumentation. That is a personal attack.
A personal attack is when someone calls you a $@#RE#%E. Not when they disagree with you.
I'd also point out that I don't keep saying CBS said so or that I don't care about Star Trek canon. What I've been mostly saying is that Trek canon is not logical. It follows no concept of logic as you are aware of it. For example:
A transporter disassembles someone to their atoms and reassembles them somewhere else, yet a transporter cannot tell the difference between a Vulcan's physiology and a Romulans. Why? Because the story demands the Romulan beam aboard the Enterprise in the guise of a Vulcan. There's no logic or even science there. It's all hand-waved for the sake of story.In a real Trek universe that could never happen.
The Federation has had cloaks since the Enterprise Incident. It a real Trek future the Federation would have been using those cloaks to secretly spy on the Romulans and Klingons for over a century. In the Trek universe they said they wouldn't use the technology they stole - and then even made a big deal of the Pegasus and how "wrong" it was for them to try it a century afterwards. It makes no real sense.
I could post a dozen more examples, but why waste my time? It's clear to anyone who has watched Trek over the last 5 decades that there is no logic to the future or how or why things are done. They're just done for the sake of the story.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Many metric yonks ago it was decided that outside of lockbox ships, factions would retain their respective ships, and all was good. You obviously don't intend on having Klinks in Mirandas, and Feds in BoPs, so why are we even opening that door? What makes Romulans the exception now?
I just think that Cryptic is painting themselves into a very unpleasant corner with this.
1. It makes the Federation and Klingons less unique. It really does. Most of the game takes place in space with your ship. They're the biggest part of the game, and one of it's largest draws. This is why you aren't letting Feds and Klinks fly each others ships, so I really question the reasoning behind it.
2. It makes the Romulans less unique. I've already spent dozens of weekends and hundreds of hours with the other two kinds of ships. Doesn't seem like a good idea when the whole point of a new faction is a "new" experience.
3. It's going to make Cryptic less money. They have an opportunity to force people to buy entirely new T5 ships, and people are going to be completely cool with that, and they aren't going to take it!?!??!Why?
4. There would be no excuse to not have T5 Constitutions, Mirandas, Oberths, or D-7s. When a Romulan Farmer can pilot the pride of a nation, there's really no excuse anymore.
5. Now Feds and Klinks are going to want each others ships. And is that a can you really want to open? I wouldn't
6. Besides, those new Romulan ships look super kickass. Why would you even want us to fly anything else?
Everything else looks so good. I don't want this to ruin it all. And it would.
It's because the Romulans WON'T be a full faction! At some point you have to join Fed or KDF. I like this because now we can DEMAND a T5 Constitutions, Mirandas, Oberths, and D-7s! Now the Dev's no longer have any plausible excuses! These ships WILL COME! BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY AND ACCEPT IT!
It's because the Romulans WON'T be a full faction! At some point you have to join Fed or KDF. I like this because now we can DEMAND a T5 Constitutions, Mirandas, Oberths, and D-7s! Now the Dev's no longer have any plausible excuses! These ships WILL COME! BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY AND ACCEPT IT!
Still got to get the ok from CBS so you can yell at cryptic all you want but they did not say no to it...it was CBS, pretty sure cryptic likes money and would give the connie a T5 version if they could and put a price tag or a fleet version of it.
A transporter disassembles someone to their atoms and reassembles them somewhere else, yet a transporter cannot tell the difference between a Vulcan's physiology and a Romulans. Why? Because the story demands the Romulan beam aboard the Enterprise in the guise of a Vulcan. There's no logic or even science there. It's all hand-waved for the sake of story.In a real Trek universe that could never happen.
Gotta pick a nit on this one. Physiologically speaking, there's no significant difference between Vulcans and Romulans; they've only been separated for 5000 years, not long enough for significant divergent evolution. Sure, some Romulans have those funky forehead ridges - and some humans have very different skin colors and facial features from other humans, but I've never heard any suggestion that the transporter could discriminate between targets on that basis.
On the other tentacle, as far as the Feds "giving away" their tech, it doesn't seem to be that way, any more than the US "gave away" F-14s to Iran or Saudi Arabia. There was some technology transfer that was permissible under treaty; when Iran changed governments, there was no longer a treaty permitting such transfer, so we stopped selling them F-14s (officially, anyway ). In this instance, we're either accepting Romulans into Starfleet, which works no differently than any other Federation ally getting people into the Fleet, or we're selling Fed starships to the Romulan Republic. What does the Federation get out of it? Possibly Romulan technology; definitely allies against the Undine and Iconians; and someone to help patrol sectors like Pi Canis and Tau Dewa, freeing up Starfleet resources for the Breen and Borg fronts.
And it's canon, dating from TOS, for the Klingons to sell ships to the Romulans; you might remember "The Enterprise Incident", in which the Enterprise crossed the Neutral Zone (Kirk was pretending to be irrational - well, more so than usual) and was quickly surrounded by three Romulan-owned Klingon-built D7 cruisers.
And of course Mol'Rihan's shipwrights are going to sell to both sides, because around Mol'Rihan they're in a bit of an uneasy alliance...
I think science fiction should resemble reality and that Star Trek does strike a decent balance between reality and fiction. If you don't think those things, that's fine. I'm not asking you to. For some reason you don't think that's okay. You think we have to continue to talk this over until I agree with you but I won't. We can disagree, this is a free internet and that's okay. At this point the conversation is not productive because you've stated your argument and I've stated mine. Get over it. Move on.
It's because the Romulans WON'T be a full faction! At some point you have to join Fed or KDF. I like this because now we can DEMAND a T5 Constitutions, Mirandas, Oberths, and D-7s! Now the Dev's no longer have any plausible excuses! These ships WILL COME! BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY AND ACCEPT IT!
This is a good point. There is no sense in holding back any more. We should basically have anything we want after this.
On the other tentacle, as far as the Feds "giving away" their tech, it doesn't seem to be that way, any more than the US "gave away" F-14s to Iran or Saudi Arabia. There was some technology transfer that was permissible under treaty; when Iran changed governments, there was no longer a treaty permitting such transfer, so we stopped selling them F-14s (officially, anyway ). In this instance, we're either accepting Romulans into Starfleet, which works no differently than any other Federation ally getting people into the Fleet, or we're selling Fed starships to the Romulan Republic. What does the Federation get out of it? Possibly Romulan technology; definitely allies against the Undine and Iconians; and someone to help patrol sectors like Pi Canis and Tau Dewa, freeing up Starfleet resources for the Breen and Borg fronts.
And it's canon, dating from TOS, for the Klingons to sell ships to the Romulans; you might remember "The Enterprise Incident", in which the Enterprise crossed the Neutral Zone (Kirk was pretending to be irrational - well, more so than usual) and was quickly surrounded by three Romulan-owned Klingon-built D7 cruisers.
And of course Mol'Rihan's shipwrights are going to sell to both sides, because around Mol'Rihan they're in a bit of an uneasy alliance...
Good points. I think that's a valid argument. Giving Iran those F14s was hugely to our advantage though and they were not "the best" thing we had at the time.
I would also say that the Federation and KDF are getting the short end of the stick in this trade. They're getting Romulan allies but the Romulans are getting allies that they could not survive without and the best Fed or KDf technology available. The only way it makes any sense is if the Federation and KDF also get Romulan technology or if their Romulan allies have top pay tremendous sums for the "best" starships.
Gotta pick a nit on this one. Physiologically speaking, there's no significant difference between Vulcans and Romulans; they've only been separated for 5000 years, not long enough for significant divergent evolution. Sure, some Romulans have those funky forehead ridges - and some humans have very different skin colors and facial features from other humans, but I've never heard any suggestion that the transporter could discriminate between targets on that basis.
A transporter would need to be able to distinguish on an atomic level. If it couldn't then it would reassemble an Asian into a Hispanic - as the transporter would just consider them both to be human.
Romulans are a sub-species of Vulcans and 5,000 years of interbreeding would create specific genetic markers that would differentiate them from Vulcans. Not that much on a visible level but on a genetic level the changes would be quite apparent - such as spotting and categorizing the genetic differences between a 5,000 year old mummy and a modern human today. The difference aren't major but they are apparent when you have the technology to see them.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Just make it so you can claim the consoles on other factions, and increase the number of cross faction purchases. PROBLEM SOLVED.
(But seriously, more Cross Faction stuff plz)
Yes, Cryptic is giving players the opportunity to not spend hundreds of dollars to play a Romulan, but that's the problem right there. I'm not going to play a Romulan. I was against them when the poll first came out. (And that poll was BS by the way)
My one question to the people that created 20 different accounts to vote in that poll; "Welp, we got your Country Hick, Federation Minion, Galaxy flying Romulans! Are ya happy?":mad:
They could have given Romulan ships to Feds and the KDF, and it would have made little difference. So yes, I am mad at them. This could have been an opportunity to add sneaky, devious, warmongers to this game, instead we get another Federation. Does that make a whole lot of sense to you?
That may seem like a solution (re: console claims) but Cryptic doesn't think they can get full price for a console claim and that even a "just okay" ship with a good console will outsell a console at the price point they charge.
The problem with faction exclusivity is that it creates a small class of players who have less to buy and expect to be given equal consideration in C-store releases, even if Cryptic isn't shooting for that faction to be as popular as the Federation.
Allowing Fed and Klingon ships means that there's less NEED to produce lots of Romulan ships while hopefully making Klingon ships more worth producing.
The need here from a production standpoint is to mostly produce Fed ships, followed by Klingon ships, followed by Romulan ships. And this is an attempt to tailor factions to that need. They're trying to get the faction players in a position to buy what they're actually going to make.
Having a non-Federation faction means making ships for them is less cost effective. And you compound the problem by disallowing those intentionally small factions from buying what it is cost effective for you to make, making it more expensive to cater to a smaller group when it should be less expensive to cater to a smaller group.
Now, I've suggested and seen multiple solutions, including:
-Recostume non-Romulan ships as Romulan when a Romulan flies them.
-Have the hull textures swap to Romulan colors
-Require a faction appropriate bridge officer for one of the high end BOff slots
I think these kind of things may have implementation costs but would balance the marketing realities with lore needs.
Bu dismissing the design decisions whole hog and being obstructionist about ths will get you ignored. In general, I'd wager Cryptic is skeptical about people claiming they'll quit over this and will probably consider some of that an acceptable loss. Because I think, sincerely, that they would consider a Romulan faction -- or any new faction, likely ever -- that can't fly Fed or KDF ships a faction that is not worth doing.
I really believe that this is make or break with them when doing factions. And it can be shoehorned in, shoehorned in more gracefully, or, ultimately, that even attempting more factions probably isn't justiable going forward. I would prefer finding a way to do it more gracefully because whatever they choose is going to be what they're stuck with.
It's pretty clear they had a goal in mind for a long time. Everything that has been worked on for the last year has been to get a Romulan micro-faction into the game - which is something DStahl talked about over a year ago.
Okay, even assuming that the entirety of Season Seven onward has going exactly according to plan (or working as intended as some of you might say), how do you explain everything before that? This game has been very schizophrenic in it's development. Just look at the differences between Seasons Six and Seven.
Also, fantasy, hard science fiction and soft science fiction are all different from fiction.
Uh... Science Fiction is Fiction my friend. It's there in the name. Fantasy, hard science fiction and soft science fiction are all very different from each other, but they're all fiction.
As for where Star Trek lies on the scale of Sic Fi Hardness, it really depends on the series you're looking at. With TNG they tried really hard to make it as realistic as they could, and a lot of the technobabble is based off of real scientific (at the time) theories. Even in TOS they included a lot of that sort of thing. Course that was all chucked out the window come Voyager, but ah well. :rolleyes:
I think if we tried to take this game back to the TNG+TOS era stuff, that sort of feeling would suit this game much more. Right now it's trying to be DS9, and DS9 isn't exactly the best series to stick a videogame in, Dominion War or not.
I don't see why we're getting into a science fiction definition debate here.
The only science of dubious quality when it comes to giving Romulans Excelsiors is political science. In short, the problem here isn't really with the science at all but with the consistency and logic of the FICTION.
So Trek, IMHO, is very soft sci-fi but the science isn't really relevant to this topic. So why argue it?
The need here from a production standpoint is to mostly produce Fed ships, followed by Klingon ships, followed by Romulan ships. And this is an attempt to tailor factions to that need. They're trying to get the faction players in a position to buy what they're actually going to make.
Having a non-Federation faction means making ships for them is less cost effective. And you compound the problem by disallowing those intentionally small factions from buying what it is cost effective for you to make, making it more expensive to cater to a smaller group when it should be less expensive to cater to a smaller group.
I don't get why they can't have it on some kind of Cycle where each faction gets the spotlight and the others got smaller/cosmetic updates. That might require some persistency on the game's part, like territory control, or a better Genesis Engine, but that just proves why we need those things even more now. :P
Now, I've suggested and seen multiple solutions, including:
-Recostume non-Romulan ships as Romulan when a Romulan flies them.
-Have the hull textures swap to Romulan colors
-Require a faction appropriate bridge officer for one of the high end BOff slots
I think these kind of things may have implementation costs but would balance the marketing realities with lore needs.
1. I'm liking the first one more, but I really don't see how that's any different from just allowing them to obtain the console after purchasing the ship.
2. Thats... silly. That sounds spectacularly comical. I like it with gruesome fascination.
3. Maybe... I can kind of see that working as an extreme example of Diplomatic CXP (or whatever the Romulan equivalent is going to be)
Bu dismissing the design decisions whole hog and being obstructionist about ths will get you ignored. In general, I'd wager Cryptic is skeptical about people claiming they'll quit over this and will probably consider some of that an acceptable loss. Because I think, sincerely, that they would consider a Romulan faction -- or any new faction, likely ever -- that can't fly Fed or KDF ships a faction that is not worth doing.
I really believe that this is make or break with them when doing factions. And it can be shoehorned in, shoehorned in more gracefully, or, ultimately, that even attempting more factions probably isn't justiable going forward. I would prefer finding a way to do it more gracefully because whatever they choose is going to be what they're stuck with.
I'm not saying I'm going to quit, I just have no reason to play green. The problem I have with them allowing Fed and KDF ships for any and all future factions, is why have factions then?
I don't see why we're getting into a science fiction definition debate here.
The only science of dubious quality when it comes to giving Romulans Excelsiors is political science. In short, the problem here isn't really with the science at all but with the consistency and logic of the FICTION.
So Trek, IMHO, is very soft sci-fi but the science isn't really relevant to this topic. So why argue it?
Harmless heathy distraction?
The thing is, is that Star Trek is very consistent with it's own internal concepts/themes/rules, even when you include a lot of the expanded verse fluff. Seeing this game TRIBBLE with that in so many ways... is painful... to say the least.
Okay, even assuming that the entirety of Season Seven onward has going exactly according to plan (or working as intended as some of you might say), how do you explain everything before that? This game has been very schizophrenic in it's development. Just look at the differences between Seasons Six and Seven.
Very, very different things.
How do I explain everything before Season 7? I explain it by saying Cryptic was sold to a new owner, was trying to rebuild its staff from 20 to 50, had just come off 8 months of FTP conversion work where game-play content had been all but stopped, and was trying to establish a baseline for the game to go forward. Once all that was done Cryptic made specific plans to advance the story. Those plans started with Season 7 and continue on into Season 8.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Trinity Shminity. I know that they're the big three in Star Trek, but they aren't in STO.
I wanted to address this as well. Yes, Roms are a big deal in STO. They're nearly 1/3 of a Fed's leveling time: level 15 to 30, so clearly they're as important in STO as they were in TOS and TNG.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Say they make $100k on a Fed ship. They make 20% of that on a Klingon ship and 15% of that on a Romulan ship.
With equal spotlight on six ships, they'd make:
$100+100+20+20+15+15
=
$270k
Now with more proportionate representation to sales, say that in a six month period, they do three Fed ships, two Klingon, and one Romulan. Further assume that a third of Romulans who spend money will buy a given non-Romulan ship.
They'd make:
$105+105+105+25+25+15
=
$380k
Now assume they just opened all Fed ships to Klingons and Romulans and we assume that a third of Klingons and a third of Romulans who spend money on ships would buy a given ship.
They'd make:
$111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7
=
$670.2k
So they'd be sacrificing $400k by doing an equal spotlight that keeps everything faction restricted in this scenario. The current plan using these example numbers would sacrifice $290k by keeping Klingons more unique, which could probably be made up in large part by releasing ships at a ratio of 5 Fed:1 Klingon:1 Romulan.
Effectively, in this scenario, you'd be asking for them to sacrifice 60% of their possible ship revenue when they're already sacrificing 43% of their ship revenue by keeping Klingons unique. That 17% decline in possible ship revenue could be enough to make it not worth doing.
I wanted to address this as well. Yes, Roms are a big deal in STO. They're nearly 1/3 of a Fed's leveling time: level 15 to 30, so clearly they're as important in STO as they were in TOS and TNG.
He's talking about tank-healer-DPS trinity. And it's true. They aren't big in STO. But contemporary MMO design is to mainly focus the importance of that into group content while making it less relevant for solo play... And I think Cryptic wants it to be more relevant in STFs and Fleet Actions than it is.
You can't judge gameplay mechanics based on featured episodes and rep missions. They're designed not to require full mastery of mechanics.
He's talking about tank-healer-DPS trinity. And it's true. They aren't big in STO. But contemporary MMO design is to mainly focus the importance of that into group content while making it less relevant for solo play... And I think Cryptic wants it to be more relevant in STFs and Fleet Actions than it is.
You can't judge gameplay mechanics based on featured episodes and rep missions. They're designed not to require full mastery of mechanics.
No. He was specifically answering my earlier statement about the Trek Faction trinity being Federation, Klingon, and Romulan - he was arguing that Roms should not be the third choice for a Faction as it's not that popular in STO and that the poll Cryptic put on the website was rigged by the players.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
No. He was specifically answering my earlier statement about the Trek Faction trinity being Federation, Klingon, and Romulan - he was arguing that Roms should not be the third choice for a Faction as it's not that popular in STO and that the poll Cryptic put on the website was rigged by the players.
Well, that's just silly, then. Vulcans are almost as popular as Klingons.
You can make all kinds of arguments why a non-Rom third faction might work better for lore or design reasons but the Fed-Klingon-Romulan trinity has a rich history in games and the only alternate option I could see popularity wise is Borg, which would be mechanically unwieldy and asymmetric. It's like having a dinner that consists of chicken, mashed potatoes, and pizza.
Uh... Science Fiction is Fiction my friend. It's there in the name. Fantasy, hard science fiction and soft science fiction are all very different from each other, but they're all fiction.
What we have here is a failure to communicate. I didn't think I'd have to explain all of this but clearly we have different people with different sets of knowledge. So here goes...
Fiction: All subtypes of non-historic writing
Types of Fiction
Mainstream Fiction: Fictional writing set in our current world and is based in reality even if not on factual events (often just called fiction)
Commercial Fiction: Any fictional writing that appeals to a wide audience (just to confuse everybody some more)
Literary Fiction: Fiction that appeals to a smaller audience (sometimes called art fiction)
Fantasy: Fiction where anything is possible and that can be set in any world (includes soft science fiction)
Science Fiction: Fiction based on rationally possible alternative worlds (usually defined as hard science fiction)
Each of these is a type of fiction. They have differences. For science fiction, one of the defining characteristics is that it is partly based on real-world rational (a big part of which is science, hence the name). If something isn't plausible in the real world, it generally isn't plausible in science fiction.
This is why I bring up the point that Star Trek is (hard) science fiction (if you buy that soft science fiction isn't just fantasy). It is unlikely that any real-world superpower would give away their best military technology to an ally let alone a long-time enemy. Thus it is unlikely that a (hard) science fiction superpower would give away their best military technology to a long-time enemy. That is my line of thought anyway. Which was posted only in response to the comment that things in the real world do not apply Star Trek
While it is true that Star Trek is fiction, that doesn't mean anything. Star Trek is science fiction - usually hard, sometimes soft.
(You're dirty.)
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue the definition. This is my (college educated) understanding of the different types of fiction. It may not be entirely accurate but it is arguably accurate.
As for where Star Trek lies on the scale of Sic Fi Hardness, it really depends on the series you're looking at. With TNG they tried really hard to make it as realistic as they could, and a lot of the technobabble is based off of real scientific (at the time) theories. Even in TOS they included a lot of that sort of thing. Course that was all chucked out the window come Voyager, but ah well. :rolleyes:
Agreed. I always go back to TOS and next gen. But that's just me and the creators of the entire Star Trek franchise. CBS and their official STO spokesperson, thecosmic1, probably don't agree though.
I think if we tried to take this game back to the TNG+TOS era stuff, that sort of feeling would suit this game much more. Right now it's trying to be DS9, and DS9 isn't exactly the best series to stick a videogame in, Dominion War or not.
Kind of agreed. Think of it like this, Star Trek is science fiction (or hard science fiction) but Star Wars is fantasy set in a futuristic world (or soft science fiction). DS9 is somewhere in between the two.
How do I explain everything before Season 7? I explain it by saying Cryptic was sold to a new owner, was trying to rebuild its staff from 20 to 50, had just come off 8 months of FTP conversion work where game-play content had been all but stopped, and was trying to establish a baseline for the game to go forward. Once all that was done Cryptic made specific plans to advance the story. Those plans started with Season 7 and continue on into Season 8.
I have never read a more accurate description of Season Five, care to explain the other four?
He's talking about tank-healer-DPS trinity. And it's true. They aren't big in STO. But contemporary MMO design is to mainly focus the importance of that into group content while making it less relevant for solo play... And I think Cryptic wants it to be more relevant in STFs and Fleet Actions than it is.
You can't judge gameplay mechanics based on featured episodes and rep missions. They're designed not to require full mastery of mechanics.
No. He was specifically answering my earlier statement about the Trek Faction trinity being Federation, Klingon, and Romulan - he was arguing that Roms should not be the third choice for a Faction as it's not that popular in STO and that the poll Cryptic put on the website was rigged by the players.
You're both wrong! Yes Romulans are the obvious choice for a third faction, yes they have been present in every Star Trek, yes they're iconic, yadda, yadda, yadda.
What I am saying, is that sure, it's the most popular choice for a new faction, but a new faction is not the most popular choice. That poll was rigged. People came out and admitted it. More story and finishing KDF were probably the actual winners, followed by exploration and starship interiors.
The problem is, if Crypic is selling out other faction ships (something they said they'd never do) then this game isn't ready for a third faction. It just doesn't have the kind of environments that a multi-faction game necessitates. There's no territory control, no persistent PvP leaderboards, no PvP environment to speek of at all really, no mining/resource gathering, no real crafting, other than Doffs and Lockboxes, no real player economy, there's no competitiveness, no threats worth teaming up against outside of STFs, on and on.
If those things existed, it would just be a matter of bringing a Romulan, or Dominion, or whatever flavored pie to the table instead of spreading around the already existing pies.
If there was persistent territory control, we could justify any faction we want, and still have it be somewhat successful. Including playable Borg. As the game exists now, it's not going to happen.
I chalk that one up to first timers naivete + a really good deal .
Bad blood sours both .
There is PLENTY of bad blood between the Romulans and their neighbors , and so far nothing story wise gives neither the Feds or the Klingons the impetus to go of and give/lend their best tech to a splinter faction of the Romulan Empire .
(when said splinter faction can't catch their own Eppohs , exterminate their own insects and catch a few bad guys within walking distance of their encampments)
See , nothing in the story makes this gift of Tech plausible .
So when it's not plausible some start to say that it's just a game , or it's just fiction , or CBS approved it , or it does/does not make sense in RL .
Tell me , what have the Romulans done for YOU lately to trust them so far ?
They (D'Tan) sang a pretty song ?
Are you that gullible ?
Or are you looking to form a Foreign Legion ? Why should you die when the Romulans will die for you . Is that it ?
Trek has nothing to do with normal, logic, or common sense.
A certain Vulcan and a bald guy may have a few words to say about that .
Trek's canon is 716 episodes and 11 movies of writers doing whatever they wanted to make the story work.
My opinion differs .
I think that both Paramount and even Cryptic tired to keep things in order .
Cryptic just gave up it seems , and Paramount did make some mistakes that Nitpicker Guides have had fun with .
But saying "they did whatever they wanted" is BS based on what writers & producers told .
The TOS & TNG creative team were under the Roddenberry & Berman thumb -- and that alone precluded a number of things .
Plz don't take this the wrong way , but your last two quotes make me question a little your understanding of Trek , and that is unpleasant for me as I enjoy reading most of your posts .
Sure Trek has flaws , but you are making grand sweeping statements in order to justify your POV , statements that have no hold in reality .
Trek has nothing to do with how things would really work if this really was the future.
Cryptic could have avoided this whoooole can of worms by giving the Romulan players what we wanted: an actual, independent faction. I was among many who were disappointed and more than a little ticked off by their decision, even more so when it seemed like a significant number of players decided to congratulate Cryptic on their move, since "who wants to grind another starbase? Thanks Cryptic! The Romulans ARE a faction, no ifs ands or buts! The Empire has been destroyed blah blah blah." We were told to "stop whining" that "the KDF has suffered through worse" and that "they said they're not ruling out starbases."
oh, but then you hear about Romulans being able to use KDF and FED ships, and NOW you're upset. Shoe's on the other foot now.
Yet instead of whining and moaning, I'll deal with the hand I've been dealt.. instead of complaining from here til when they make Rom bases (and they have no reason to now, really.)
I also remember them posting a question on their facebook group, asking us what we wanted most. A significant number of people posted "playable Romulans" not "'finish' the KDF".
But I guess facebook is rigged, too.
I usually agree with a lot of your posts, especially when it comes to the T5 Connie (the T5 D7 IS in the game by now. And I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a T5 TOS Rom BoP) and more TOS-inspired costumes. Can't say I agree this time. Especially since I'm not even remotely interested in using KDF or Fed ships on my Romulans. Consoles, yes, but not ships. Should they be faction unique? They've done cross faction consoles for lockboxes... so that ship has already sailed.
It constantly surprises me -maybe it shouldn't anymore- how easily some players are quick to TRIBBLE all over anyone getting what they want. A lot of your arguments why "Romulans shouldn't happen in this game" are very very slight variations on people rationalizing why the T5 Connie should never be in the game. All very "logical", of course. I have my wishlist for this game, and it's a long one, but I won't complain when people get what they want, simply because it's not what I wanted or expected. And people getting what they want doesn't cheapen the game or ruin the experience, either.
I find it confusing that we have Cardassian, Tholian and Breen ships flying over both Qo'nos and Earth yet everyone gets their panties in a twist at the thought of seeing warbirds everywhere.
I think because everyone has had to accept that lockboxes are a lost battle on all fronts. In a way players think this is a battle that might yet be won!.... we know it won't and in fact has already been lost but forums are a sort of mass therapy in a way.
Cryptic could have avoided this whoooole can of worms by giving the Romulan players what we wanted: an actual, independent faction.
This much we can agree on , but I was a bit confused by the rest of your post , as it seemed to me that you went to the trouble of scoffing at just about every one who ever had any sort of opinion on the Rommy faction .
Perhaps it would help if you make a more focused post complaining about one or two elements of the issue .
oh, but then you hear about Romulans being able to use KDF and FED ships, and NOW you're upset. Shoe's on the other foot now.
As this is an issue I am upset with -- yes , now I am upset .
We had that stupid count down clock for about a month to wind us up.
We had a generic "3 full factions , playable from 1-50" website .
And after 8 days of rejoicing and wild speculation we got a Q&A that dashed a number of our hopes .
Some of us gave them a piece of our minds then and there .
Some have held back and gave the situation some thought before responding .
Some have read the feedback and decided -- you know ,this is what I think too .
All of the above happened .
What's your beef ?
I think because everyone has had to accept that lockboxes are a lost battle on all fronts. In a way players think this is a battle that might yet be won!.... we know it won't and in fact has already been lost but forums are a sort of mass therapy in a way.
Could be ... could be ... but the battle is not lost until May 21 !
(and even then it's just a prelude ... to the Cardassian Front !!!)
Say they make $100k on a Fed ship. They make 20% of that on a Klingon ship and 15% of that on a Romulan ship.
With equal spotlight on six ships, they'd make:
$100+100+20+20+15+15
=
$270k
Now with more proportionate representation to sales, say that in a six month period, they do three Fed ships, two Klingon, and one Romulan. Further assume that a third of Romulans who spend money will buy a given non-Romulan ship.
They'd make:
$105+105+105+25+25+15
=
$380k
Now assume they just opened all Fed ships to Klingons and Romulans and we assume that a third of Klingons and a third of Romulans who spend money on ships would buy a given ship.
They'd make:
$111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7
=
$670.2k
So they'd be sacrificing $400k by doing an equal spotlight that keeps everything faction restricted in this scenario. The current plan using these example numbers would sacrifice $290k by keeping Klingons more unique, which could probably be made up in large part by releasing ships at a ratio of 5 Fed:1 Klingon:1 Romulan.
Effectively, in this scenario, you'd be asking for them to sacrifice 60% of their possible ship revenue when they're already sacrificing 43% of their ship revenue by keeping Klingons unique. That 17% decline in possible ship revenue could be enough to make it not worth doing.
Maybe. Maybe not. You're assuming that people would fly opposite faction ships. I'm not sure it could work. Many people (including myself) fly lockbox ships because such ships are unique/it's silly/it's vanity gear/have special abilities, but I don't see anything like that if you offer me to fly Fed ship with my kdf characters. That may be silly but that's it. Fed or KDF ships have nothing special, you can find anything you like in your faction's shipyard.
If I want the new fed or kdf ship, then i'll likely give it to one of my existing characters. If I play a Romulan in may (and it's just speculation) then I will probably make it a more RP character, with a Romulan crew, a Romulan ship, since I already have 3 chars with the best possible gear, all OP goodies and a lot of resources. I think most Romulans won't be normal alts, since most of us already have at least one very well developped character able to use new fed or kdf ships. I mean if i want to do something silly I'll just do it with my main char.
A new faction makes little sense if all you want is creating another alt you will play like any other random character.
Comments
No matter how you word it...it's still Fiction
You keep thinking this is personal. It has nothing to do with you or your opinion. It's entirely about this idea you keep spewing that someone Trek must follow the "normal" rules of logic. Trek has nothing to do with normal, logic, or common sense. Trek's canon is 716 episodes and 11 movies of writers doing whatever they wanted to make the story work. Trek has nothing to do with how things would really work if this really was the future. Telling what we wouldn't do in the real world has no bearing on what people have done in Trek canon.
Um... no it isn't, it's science fiction. There is a difference. Read and be edified...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_fiction_and_science_fiction
Also, fantasy, hard science fiction and soft science fiction are all different from fiction.
It's still fiction :P
Fiction is in the name. It's still made up.
It's not like the science in Star Trek was ever very good anyway, so I don't even see what your point was.
No. You're wrong. They TRADED a technology to the Klingons. This is something that does occasionally happen in real life and can be observed scientificially - making it science fiction that the Romulans would do such a thing and not fantasy.
give
[giv] verb, gave, giv?en, giv?ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1. to present voluntarily and without expecting compensation; bestow: to give a birthday present to someone.
2. to hand to someone: Give me that plate, please.
3. to place in someone's care: If you give me your coat, I'll put it in the closet.
4. to grant (permission, opportunity, etc.) to someone: Give me a chance.
5. to impart or communicate: to give advice; to give a cold to someone.
trade
[treyd] noun, verb, trad?ed, trad?ing, adjective
noun
1. the act or process of buying, selling, or exchanging commodities, at either wholesale or retail, within a country or between countries: domestic trade; foreign trade.
2. a purchase or sale; business deal or transaction.
3. an exchange of items, usually without payment of money.
4. any occupation pursued as a business or livelihood.
5. some line of skilled manual or mechanical work; craft: the trade of a carpenter; printer's trade.
I don't think you understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. The fact is that CBS and Cryptic will do whatever they want to and my opinion has no bearing on them. My opinion is that they are doing something which is not realistic. Not sure why you can't grasp that dude, but it's very irritating to have you continue to argue that my opinion is not valid because "CBS said so" and "you don't care about Star Trek canon." That makes it pretty personal though. You should expect similar reciprocation any time you tell somebody that their opinion is wrong with invalidating argumentation. That is a personal attack.
People are allowed to have and share their opinions, whether or not you agree with them, your highness. You are not the king of the STO forum so please stop telling me what my opinion should be. As I've said, you don't have to like my opinion. At this point I'd be insulted if you did.
At any rate, this is silly. You disagree with me. Fine. Get over it. I'm moving on. You should too. :cool:
Sorry for hijacking this thread OP. It was not intentional. I should know better than to feed the trolls.
Pure ignorance.
http://www.readwritethink.org/files/resources/lesson_images/lesson927/SciFiDefinition.pdf
"Science fiction is a genre of fiction in which the stories often tell about science and technology of the future. It is important to note that science fiction has a relationship with the principles of science; these stories involve partially true-partially fictitious laws or theories of science. It should not be completely unbelievable, because it then ventures in to the genre fantasy."
A personal attack is when someone calls you a $@#RE#%E. Not when they disagree with you.
I'd also point out that I don't keep saying CBS said so or that I don't care about Star Trek canon. What I've been mostly saying is that Trek canon is not logical. It follows no concept of logic as you are aware of it. For example:
A transporter disassembles someone to their atoms and reassembles them somewhere else, yet a transporter cannot tell the difference between a Vulcan's physiology and a Romulans. Why? Because the story demands the Romulan beam aboard the Enterprise in the guise of a Vulcan. There's no logic or even science there. It's all hand-waved for the sake of story.In a real Trek universe that could never happen.
The Federation has had cloaks since the Enterprise Incident. It a real Trek future the Federation would have been using those cloaks to secretly spy on the Romulans and Klingons for over a century. In the Trek universe they said they wouldn't use the technology they stole - and then even made a big deal of the Pegasus and how "wrong" it was for them to try it a century afterwards. It makes no real sense.
I could post a dozen more examples, but why waste my time? It's clear to anyone who has watched Trek over the last 5 decades that there is no logic to the future or how or why things are done. They're just done for the sake of the story.
It's because the Romulans WON'T be a full faction! At some point you have to join Fed or KDF. I like this because now we can DEMAND a T5 Constitutions, Mirandas, Oberths, and D-7s! Now the Dev's no longer have any plausible excuses! These ships WILL COME! BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY AND ACCEPT IT!
[/SIGPIC]
Still got to get the ok from CBS so you can yell at cryptic all you want but they did not say no to it...it was CBS, pretty sure cryptic likes money and would give the connie a T5 version if they could and put a price tag or a fleet version of it.
On the other tentacle, as far as the Feds "giving away" their tech, it doesn't seem to be that way, any more than the US "gave away" F-14s to Iran or Saudi Arabia. There was some technology transfer that was permissible under treaty; when Iran changed governments, there was no longer a treaty permitting such transfer, so we stopped selling them F-14s (officially, anyway
And it's canon, dating from TOS, for the Klingons to sell ships to the Romulans; you might remember "The Enterprise Incident", in which the Enterprise crossed the Neutral Zone (Kirk was pretending to be irrational - well, more so than usual) and was quickly surrounded by three Romulan-owned Klingon-built D7 cruisers.
And of course Mol'Rihan's shipwrights are going to sell to both sides, because around Mol'Rihan they're in a bit of an uneasy alliance...
I think science fiction should resemble reality and that Star Trek does strike a decent balance between reality and fiction. If you don't think those things, that's fine. I'm not asking you to. For some reason you don't think that's okay. You think we have to continue to talk this over until I agree with you but I won't. We can disagree, this is a free internet and that's okay. At this point the conversation is not productive because you've stated your argument and I've stated mine. Get over it. Move on.
This is a good point. There is no sense in holding back any more. We should basically have anything we want after this.
Good points. I think that's a valid argument. Giving Iran those F14s was hugely to our advantage though and they were not "the best" thing we had at the time.
I would also say that the Federation and KDF are getting the short end of the stick in this trade. They're getting Romulan allies but the Romulans are getting allies that they could not survive without and the best Fed or KDf technology available. The only way it makes any sense is if the Federation and KDF also get Romulan technology or if their Romulan allies have top pay tremendous sums for the "best" starships.
Anyway, point taken. Thank you for making it.
Romulans are a sub-species of Vulcans and 5,000 years of interbreeding would create specific genetic markers that would differentiate them from Vulcans. Not that much on a visible level but on a genetic level the changes would be quite apparent - such as spotting and categorizing the genetic differences between a 5,000 year old mummy and a modern human today. The difference aren't major but they are apparent when you have the technology to see them.
That may seem like a solution (re: console claims) but Cryptic doesn't think they can get full price for a console claim and that even a "just okay" ship with a good console will outsell a console at the price point they charge.
The problem with faction exclusivity is that it creates a small class of players who have less to buy and expect to be given equal consideration in C-store releases, even if Cryptic isn't shooting for that faction to be as popular as the Federation.
Allowing Fed and Klingon ships means that there's less NEED to produce lots of Romulan ships while hopefully making Klingon ships more worth producing.
The need here from a production standpoint is to mostly produce Fed ships, followed by Klingon ships, followed by Romulan ships. And this is an attempt to tailor factions to that need. They're trying to get the faction players in a position to buy what they're actually going to make.
Having a non-Federation faction means making ships for them is less cost effective. And you compound the problem by disallowing those intentionally small factions from buying what it is cost effective for you to make, making it more expensive to cater to a smaller group when it should be less expensive to cater to a smaller group.
Now, I've suggested and seen multiple solutions, including:
-Recostume non-Romulan ships as Romulan when a Romulan flies them.
-Have the hull textures swap to Romulan colors
-Require a faction appropriate bridge officer for one of the high end BOff slots
I think these kind of things may have implementation costs but would balance the marketing realities with lore needs.
Bu dismissing the design decisions whole hog and being obstructionist about ths will get you ignored. In general, I'd wager Cryptic is skeptical about people claiming they'll quit over this and will probably consider some of that an acceptable loss. Because I think, sincerely, that they would consider a Romulan faction -- or any new faction, likely ever -- that can't fly Fed or KDF ships a faction that is not worth doing.
I really believe that this is make or break with them when doing factions. And it can be shoehorned in, shoehorned in more gracefully, or, ultimately, that even attempting more factions probably isn't justiable going forward. I would prefer finding a way to do it more gracefully because whatever they choose is going to be what they're stuck with.
Okay, even assuming that the entirety of Season Seven onward has going exactly according to plan (or working as intended as some of you might say), how do you explain everything before that? This game has been very schizophrenic in it's development. Just look at the differences between Seasons Six and Seven.
Very, very different things.
Uh... Science Fiction is Fiction my friend. It's there in the name. Fantasy, hard science fiction and soft science fiction are all very different from each other, but they're all fiction.
As for where Star Trek lies on the scale of Sic Fi Hardness, it really depends on the series you're looking at. With TNG they tried really hard to make it as realistic as they could, and a lot of the technobabble is based off of real scientific (at the time) theories. Even in TOS they included a lot of that sort of thing. Course that was all chucked out the window come Voyager, but ah well. :rolleyes:
I think if we tried to take this game back to the TNG+TOS era stuff, that sort of feeling would suit this game much more. Right now it's trying to be DS9, and DS9 isn't exactly the best series to stick a videogame in, Dominion War or not.
The only science of dubious quality when it comes to giving Romulans Excelsiors is political science. In short, the problem here isn't really with the science at all but with the consistency and logic of the FICTION.
So Trek, IMHO, is very soft sci-fi but the science isn't really relevant to this topic. So why argue it?
I don't get why they can't have it on some kind of Cycle where each faction gets the spotlight and the others got smaller/cosmetic updates. That might require some persistency on the game's part, like territory control, or a better Genesis Engine, but that just proves why we need those things even more now. :P
1. I'm liking the first one more, but I really don't see how that's any different from just allowing them to obtain the console after purchasing the ship.
2. Thats... silly. That sounds spectacularly comical. I like it with gruesome fascination.
3. Maybe... I can kind of see that working as an extreme example of Diplomatic CXP (or whatever the Romulan equivalent is going to be)
I'm not saying I'm going to quit, I just have no reason to play green. The problem I have with them allowing Fed and KDF ships for any and all future factions, is why have factions then?
Harmless heathy distraction?
The thing is, is that Star Trek is very consistent with it's own internal concepts/themes/rules, even when you include a lot of the expanded verse fluff. Seeing this game TRIBBLE with that in so many ways... is painful... to say the least.
Say they make $100k on a Fed ship. They make 20% of that on a Klingon ship and 15% of that on a Romulan ship.
With equal spotlight on six ships, they'd make:
$100+100+20+20+15+15
=
$270k
Now with more proportionate representation to sales, say that in a six month period, they do three Fed ships, two Klingon, and one Romulan. Further assume that a third of Romulans who spend money will buy a given non-Romulan ship.
They'd make:
$105+105+105+25+25+15
=
$380k
Now assume they just opened all Fed ships to Klingons and Romulans and we assume that a third of Klingons and a third of Romulans who spend money on ships would buy a given ship.
They'd make:
$111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7+111.7
=
$670.2k
So they'd be sacrificing $400k by doing an equal spotlight that keeps everything faction restricted in this scenario. The current plan using these example numbers would sacrifice $290k by keeping Klingons more unique, which could probably be made up in large part by releasing ships at a ratio of 5 Fed:1 Klingon:1 Romulan.
Effectively, in this scenario, you'd be asking for them to sacrifice 60% of their possible ship revenue when they're already sacrificing 43% of their ship revenue by keeping Klingons unique. That 17% decline in possible ship revenue could be enough to make it not worth doing.
He's talking about tank-healer-DPS trinity. And it's true. They aren't big in STO. But contemporary MMO design is to mainly focus the importance of that into group content while making it less relevant for solo play... And I think Cryptic wants it to be more relevant in STFs and Fleet Actions than it is.
You can't judge gameplay mechanics based on featured episodes and rep missions. They're designed not to require full mastery of mechanics.
Well, that's just silly, then. Vulcans are almost as popular as Klingons.
You can make all kinds of arguments why a non-Rom third faction might work better for lore or design reasons but the Fed-Klingon-Romulan trinity has a rich history in games and the only alternate option I could see popularity wise is Borg, which would be mechanically unwieldy and asymmetric. It's like having a dinner that consists of chicken, mashed potatoes, and pizza.
What we have here is a failure to communicate. I didn't think I'd have to explain all of this but clearly we have different people with different sets of knowledge. So here goes...
Fiction: All subtypes of non-historic writing
Types of Fiction
Each of these is a type of fiction. They have differences. For science fiction, one of the defining characteristics is that it is partly based on real-world rational (a big part of which is science, hence the name). If something isn't plausible in the real world, it generally isn't plausible in science fiction.
This is why I bring up the point that Star Trek is (hard) science fiction (if you buy that soft science fiction isn't just fantasy). It is unlikely that any real-world superpower would give away their best military technology to an ally let alone a long-time enemy. Thus it is unlikely that a (hard) science fiction superpower would give away their best military technology to a long-time enemy. That is my line of thought anyway. Which was posted only in response to the comment that things in the real world do not apply Star Trek
While it is true that Star Trek is fiction, that doesn't mean anything. Star Trek is science fiction - usually hard, sometimes soft.
(You're dirty.)
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue the definition. This is my (college educated) understanding of the different types of fiction. It may not be entirely accurate but it is arguably accurate.
Agreed. I always go back to TOS and next gen. But that's just me and the creators of the entire Star Trek franchise. CBS and their official STO spokesperson, thecosmic1, probably don't agree though.
Kind of agreed. Think of it like this, Star Trek is science fiction (or hard science fiction) but Star Wars is fantasy set in a futuristic world (or soft science fiction). DS9 is somewhere in between the two.
I have never read a more accurate description of Season Five, care to explain the other four?
You're both wrong! Yes Romulans are the obvious choice for a third faction, yes they have been present in every Star Trek, yes they're iconic, yadda, yadda, yadda.
What I am saying, is that sure, it's the most popular choice for a new faction, but a new faction is not the most popular choice. That poll was rigged. People came out and admitted it. More story and finishing KDF were probably the actual winners, followed by exploration and starship interiors.
The problem is, if Crypic is selling out other faction ships (something they said they'd never do) then this game isn't ready for a third faction. It just doesn't have the kind of environments that a multi-faction game necessitates. There's no territory control, no persistent PvP leaderboards, no PvP environment to speek of at all really, no mining/resource gathering, no real crafting, other than Doffs and Lockboxes, no real player economy, there's no competitiveness, no threats worth teaming up against outside of STFs, on and on.
If those things existed, it would just be a matter of bringing a Romulan, or Dominion, or whatever flavored pie to the table instead of spreading around the already existing pies.
If there was persistent territory control, we could justify any faction we want, and still have it be somewhat successful. Including playable Borg. As the game exists now, it's not going to happen.
Neither should have the Romulans.
I chalk that one up to first timers naivete + a really good deal .
Bad blood sours both .
There is PLENTY of bad blood between the Romulans and their neighbors , and so far nothing story wise gives neither the Feds or the Klingons the impetus to go of and give/lend their best tech to a splinter faction of the Romulan Empire .
(when said splinter faction can't catch their own Eppohs , exterminate their own insects and catch a few bad guys within walking distance of their encampments)
See , nothing in the story makes this gift of Tech plausible .
So when it's not plausible some start to say that it's just a game , or it's just fiction , or CBS approved it , or it does/does not make sense in RL .
Tell me , what have the Romulans done for YOU lately to trust them so far ?
They (D'Tan) sang a pretty song ?
Are you that gullible ?
Or are you looking to form a Foreign Legion ? Why should you die when the Romulans will die for you . Is that it ?
A certain Vulcan and a bald guy may have a few words to say about that .
My opinion differs .
I think that both Paramount and even Cryptic tired to keep things in order .
Cryptic just gave up it seems , and Paramount did make some mistakes that Nitpicker Guides have had fun with .
But saying "they did whatever they wanted" is BS based on what writers & producers told .
The TOS & TNG creative team were under the Roddenberry & Berman thumb -- and that alone precluded a number of things .
Plz don't take this the wrong way , but your last two quotes make me question a little your understanding of Trek , and that is unpleasant for me as I enjoy reading most of your posts .
Sure Trek has flaws , but you are making grand sweeping statements in order to justify your POV , statements that have no hold in reality .
Prove it .
oh, but then you hear about Romulans being able to use KDF and FED ships, and NOW you're upset. Shoe's on the other foot now.
Yet instead of whining and moaning, I'll deal with the hand I've been dealt.. instead of complaining from here til when they make Rom bases (and they have no reason to now, really.)
I also remember them posting a question on their facebook group, asking us what we wanted most. A significant number of people posted "playable Romulans" not "'finish' the KDF".
But I guess facebook is rigged, too.
I usually agree with a lot of your posts, especially when it comes to the T5 Connie (the T5 D7 IS in the game by now. And I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a T5 TOS Rom BoP) and more TOS-inspired costumes. Can't say I agree this time. Especially since I'm not even remotely interested in using KDF or Fed ships on my Romulans. Consoles, yes, but not ships. Should they be faction unique? They've done cross faction consoles for lockboxes... so that ship has already sailed.
It constantly surprises me -maybe it shouldn't anymore- how easily some players are quick to TRIBBLE all over anyone getting what they want. A lot of your arguments why "Romulans shouldn't happen in this game" are very very slight variations on people rationalizing why the T5 Connie should never be in the game. All very "logical", of course. I have my wishlist for this game, and it's a long one, but I won't complain when people get what they want, simply because it's not what I wanted or expected. And people getting what they want doesn't cheapen the game or ruin the experience, either.
I think because everyone has had to accept that lockboxes are a lost battle on all fronts. In a way players think this is a battle that might yet be won!.... we know it won't and in fact has already been lost but forums are a sort of mass therapy in a way.
This much we can agree on , but I was a bit confused by the rest of your post , as it seemed to me that you went to the trouble of scoffing at just about every one who ever had any sort of opinion on the Rommy faction .
Perhaps it would help if you make a more focused post complaining about one or two elements of the issue .
As this is an issue I am upset with -- yes , now I am upset .
We had that stupid count down clock for about a month to wind us up.
We had a generic "3 full factions , playable from 1-50" website .
And after 8 days of rejoicing and wild speculation we got a Q&A that dashed a number of our hopes .
Some of us gave them a piece of our minds then and there .
Some have held back and gave the situation some thought before responding .
Some have read the feedback and decided -- you know ,this is what I think too .
All of the above happened .
What's your beef ?
Could be ... could be ... but the battle is not lost until May 21 !
(and even then it's just a prelude ... to the Cardassian Front !!!)
Maybe. Maybe not. You're assuming that people would fly opposite faction ships. I'm not sure it could work. Many people (including myself) fly lockbox ships because such ships are unique/it's silly/it's vanity gear/have special abilities, but I don't see anything like that if you offer me to fly Fed ship with my kdf characters. That may be silly but that's it. Fed or KDF ships have nothing special, you can find anything you like in your faction's shipyard.
If I want the new fed or kdf ship, then i'll likely give it to one of my existing characters. If I play a Romulan in may (and it's just speculation) then I will probably make it a more RP character, with a Romulan crew, a Romulan ship, since I already have 3 chars with the best possible gear, all OP goodies and a lot of resources. I think most Romulans won't be normal alts, since most of us already have at least one very well developped character able to use new fed or kdf ships. I mean if i want to do something silly I'll just do it with my main char.
A new faction makes little sense if all you want is creating another alt you will play like any other random character.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.