This is my main beef with the 'Escorts are OP' argument. Just because Escorts can hit the X damage mark the quickest where Cruisers and Science vessels have to work to get at it, doesn't mean that Cruisers and Science vessels or Engineer and Science Captains aren't worth anything. Laziness isn't an excuse.
I'd rather the effort that's put into arguing about OPness and UPness be used to find things that genuinely don't work as advertised, such as the Fire at Will (and other applied powers) bug with Weapon modifiers. That tends to be more productive.
Well see that's the point we're trying to make. It's op because it's broken while beams and their powers are up because they too are broken. The tetryon proc rate is a great example of this and that's what we're bringing to the devs attention. Sure people can do cookie cutter builds and manipulate the points in their trait down to the micron to get there but in the end is that helping balance the game, is that helping with the overall gameplay or fun value of the game? no. is that causing a rift in the community? yes. Is that making the other ships not desirable because they are up? yes.
It's all there in black and white and the sooner some people come out of their denial stage and realize that it's not working properly and help the rest of the community bring it to the dev's attention the sooner it will get fixed and we can all move on to another topic.
Just because somebody's using some niche build with some bought consoles to help make the dps go up doesn't mean the it's where it should be without those niche builds or consoles..... that's the whole point of this argument in a nutshell.
But you are saying that it is not working properly because cannons can do more damage then beams and tac escorts do more damage then anything.
That is exactly the design. You may disagree with it, but you cannot say it is broken. It is working as intended.
If you find a game where ships that are big and tanky do as much damage as ones that are small and DPS oriented, you may have found a better match. Personally, I find the status quo correct. Either way, the beams are doing the job they were specifically designed to do.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Hehe, on a personal note, I flew my Gal-R all last night in pugs and it wasn't until this morning that I was out DPSed by an eng in a JHAS.
My personal damage is in the crapper, but I'm still comfortably above your average pug tacscort. Yes... I do feel a little gimp damage wise, but my oh my can she take a pounding! I'm actually loaded with threat consoles and not dying. I wish I had done this sooner.
And why oh why did nobody ever explain to me that you can run 4 EP2* skills? Here all this time I though if you ran more then 2 the cooldowns would step all over eachother like other skills. Made that redundant eng ens pretty useful.
Edit: My damage should be in the crapper, I didn't spec her for DPS, I speced her for tank.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
But you are saying that it is not working properly because cannons can do more damage then beams and tac escorts do more damage then anything.
That is exactly the design. You may disagree with it, but you cannot say it is broken. It is working as intended.
If you find a game where ships that are big and tanky do as much damage as ones that are small and DPS oriented, you may have found a better match. Personally, I find the status quo correct. Either way, the beams are doing the job they were specifically designed to do.
I agree fully with you on this.
__________________________________________________________________________
There is a difference between beams and cannons.
Beams: Wider firing arc, lower dps.
Cannons: Restricted firing arc, higher dps.
That is not something that is broken because escorts can with their agility use cannons effectively, as escorts are supposed to.
Agreed, it's easy to set up a good escort for damage.
Cruisers and sci ships are a bit different, here YOU the PEOPLE/CAPTAINS actually need to think and plan your skill set.
Or should everything be as easy in a game?
Everything should be equal, the other ship is just as the next ship?
Yeah, that is a build for a fun game...
And here i thought...
Perhaps i am naive, but i thought games were supposed to be challening.
I'm an escort person for the moment.
Yeah, i am lazy, it was the fastest way to build a good ship.
And when i am done i will go over to cruisers, just for the challenge in doing it, and getting just as good with a cruiser as i am with an escort.
Impossible?
Nope, if it is, i've met the impossible several times....
Nothing is broken.
You just need to think outside your own box.
The problem is that they put the directional weapon on the ship with the highest agility.
IMO, cruisers should be 5 on the saucer, 2 or 3 in the rear. That would give them huge firing potential in the forward 270 degrees, but make them vulnerable from the rear. Cruisers could do area-denial work at that point, grab a piece of map and hold it. Escorts should fly faster, and have 3/3 or 4/4 setup that gives them high-damage directional with cannons and turret like now. They could run around and grab area quickly, or get behind the cruisers and bring them down with agility + firepower. This is pretty much backwards from what we have now.
Even the Galaxy can be very fun and an asset by playing on it's strengths. A Tank/Support cruiser dose not need to hit OMG levels of dps to be effective. Keeping yourself and your teammates alive = more damage than dead captains.
What I've been discovering, is in my Gal-R speced as a heals/tank, with speced phased polarons and a +hull heal and +shield heal shield emitters +threat consoles, and even the oft derided aceton beam, my pug experiences are much more pleasant.
I'm increasing the damage of my teammates, because they aren't dying and flying out to heal. I'm eating hits that would have either flattened me outright before or have me reaching for evasive manuvers to try and get distance to recover. Yes, my damage is lower, by a substantial factor, but by actually flying the ship how it was designed it is proving to be quite the asset.
I've missed one optional, and yes, it was due to low DPS. Yes, if I was in a DPS machine at that moment I could have saved the day. But I did more then my share of damage in that run, while I do try to make up for that in my usual play, I certainly did all I could in that run. If you are top DPS in your tanking Gal-R you can only imagine the skill of the players you have scored for the run.
That is not a complaint. I actually enjoy pugs for the challenge and the need to approach things differently every time. Sure, pre-mades are great when you go in and all perform great and its magic. But there is also something to be said for coming in and being a hero and saving the day. It's funny how so many people say that is how they want to feel when playing, but instead of trying to carry a pug thru a bad situation like a true hero ship would, they instead moan about other people not performing. I say TRIBBLE it, roll up my sleeves, and jump in like the Enterprise would, here to save the day. I've digressed again.
Yeah, there are probably better ships for tanking, too, but I'm having a blast learning and flying the ship I've always really wanted... I'll likely end up switching the whole kit to my sci ody after a while, but for now I'm getting my money's worth.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
No, not this time, unless they mess it up even more!
But if they actually fix it as described, it will be hell alot more better and usefull, for everyone.
Subsystem targeting however...
Never seen any beam specialized attack do as much hull damage as that one.
And...
As long as i've used it, it's done what it should do, perhaps three - four times.
So that one should be updated too.
Yeah yeah, i'm a tac cap in an escort using beams... :-D
Yeah we totally roflstomped those cannon girlys in pvp:P
Whats funny we noticed this bug on tribble four days ago and they still push it on holodeck.
Yeah but i guess the cryptic team think something like this "well it ain't broken on holodeck yet so let's patch it in so we can fix it and be heroes" :-D
So how about changing our way of thinking and actualy start using damage/dps survived as a base of comparison of cruiser builds? Oh wait, I forgot, I'm in the 1% of peopke who care more about their build's overall usefulness for my team rather than the amount of pew pew i can do (sadly the game is the greatest problem here as it doesn't do much to promote teamplay).
So how about changing our way of thinking and actualy start using damage/dps survived as a base of comparison of cruiser builds? Oh wait, I forgot, I'm in the 1% of peopke who care more about their build's overall usefulness for my team rather than the amount of pew pew i can do (sadly the game is the greatest problem here as it doesn't do much to promote teamplay).
Agreed.
team play in sto is a bit murky, especially if you do random stfs with random people.
You never know what you are getting untill you are in it.
And why oh why did nobody ever explain to me that you can run 4 EP2* skills? Here all this time I though if you ran more then 2 the cooldowns would step all over eachother like other skills. Made that redundant eng ens pretty useful.
A lot of players ahve stopped running 4x EPtX by using 2 or 3 technician doffs. Of course, on a ship like the Galaxy with so many intrinsic engi slots you don't really need to worry about that.
So how about changing our way of thinking and actualy start using damage/dps survived as a base of comparison of cruiser builds? Oh wait, I forgot, I'm in the 1% of peopke who care more about their build's overall usefulness for my team rather than the amount of pew pew i can do (sadly the game is the greatest problem here as it doesn't do much to promote teamplay).
Unfortunately dps is the king. So you kill it faster your team benefits more.
Cruisers could do area-denial work at that point, grab a piece of map and hold it.
Wait, wut? With a 5/3 setup? No, that would never work for holding ground. Besides, its space, "ground" is what's most available! You need to move or at the very least be an artillery style ship (carriers are sorta like this).
So how about changing our way of thinking and actualy start using damage/dps survived as a base of comparison of cruiser builds? Oh wait, I forgot, I'm in the 1% of peopke who care more about their build's overall usefulness for my team rather than the amount of pew pew i can do (sadly the game is the greatest problem here as it doesn't do much to promote teamplay).
Hold on, I think you may be confusing some things. If you're not confused you might confuse others.
Comparing damage/dps survived is not actually terribly useful at all. The idea should be to not only survive while holding agro, but to also do as much damage as possible. Sure, pure tank bricks can be a thing and a fun diversion, but a DPS-y ,tanky, and agro holding cruiser are far more useful to a group than a pure unkillable brick that struggles to hold agro. In competent groups its not that big a deal, but in pugs a good cruiser's DPS matters.
Hold on, I think you may be confusing some things. If you're not confused you might confuse others.
Comparing damage/dps survived is not actually terribly useful at all. The idea should be to not only survive while holding agro, but to also do as much damage as possible. Sure, pure tank bricks can be a thing and a fun diversion, but a DPS-y ,tanky, and agro holding cruiser are far more useful to a group than a pure unkillable brick that struggles to hold agro. In competent groups its not that big a deal, but in pugs a good cruiser's DPS matters.
You're forgetting one thing - to receive damage you have to take aggro so effectively if you're getting hit a lot you're doing a lot of dps (unless your team is a rainbow/skittle party)
You're forgetting one thing - to receive damage you have to take aggro so effectively if you're getting hit a lot you're doing a lot of dps (unless your team is a rainbow/skittle party)
Your dps isn't as big an issue for holding agro if you've specced into Threat Control, as any tank should.
Your dps isn't as big an issue for holding agro if you've specced into Threat Control, as any tank should.
I'd take it a step further and run APD with the threat doffs when possible.
Granted, the cruisers which can readily run it are generally the ones already considered the strongest.
I'd really like to see active doff slots scale with vessel size, so that cruisers have enough active doff slots to make better use of their limited tactical and science boff abilities; engineering boff abilities are just so gimp.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Comments
Well see that's the point we're trying to make. It's op because it's broken while beams and their powers are up because they too are broken. The tetryon proc rate is a great example of this and that's what we're bringing to the devs attention. Sure people can do cookie cutter builds and manipulate the points in their trait down to the micron to get there but in the end is that helping balance the game, is that helping with the overall gameplay or fun value of the game? no. is that causing a rift in the community? yes. Is that making the other ships not desirable because they are up? yes.
It's all there in black and white and the sooner some people come out of their denial stage and realize that it's not working properly and help the rest of the community bring it to the dev's attention the sooner it will get fixed and we can all move on to another topic.
Just because somebody's using some niche build with some bought consoles to help make the dps go up doesn't mean the it's where it should be without those niche builds or consoles..... that's the whole point of this argument in a nutshell.
That is exactly the design. You may disagree with it, but you cannot say it is broken. It is working as intended.
If you find a game where ships that are big and tanky do as much damage as ones that are small and DPS oriented, you may have found a better match. Personally, I find the status quo correct. Either way, the beams are doing the job they were specifically designed to do.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
My personal damage is in the crapper, but I'm still comfortably above your average pug tacscort. Yes... I do feel a little gimp damage wise, but my oh my can she take a pounding! I'm actually loaded with threat consoles and not dying. I wish I had done this sooner.
And why oh why did nobody ever explain to me that you can run 4 EP2* skills? Here all this time I though if you ran more then 2 the cooldowns would step all over eachother like other skills. Made that redundant eng ens pretty useful.
Edit: My damage should be in the crapper, I didn't spec her for DPS, I speced her for tank.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I agree fully with you on this.
__________________________________________________________________________
There is a difference between beams and cannons.
Beams: Wider firing arc, lower dps.
Cannons: Restricted firing arc, higher dps.
That is not something that is broken because escorts can with their agility use cannons effectively, as escorts are supposed to.
Agreed, it's easy to set up a good escort for damage.
Cruisers and sci ships are a bit different, here YOU the PEOPLE/CAPTAINS actually need to think and plan your skill set.
Or should everything be as easy in a game?
Everything should be equal, the other ship is just as the next ship?
Yeah, that is a build for a fun game...
And here i thought...
Perhaps i am naive, but i thought games were supposed to be challening.
I'm an escort person for the moment.
Yeah, i am lazy, it was the fastest way to build a good ship.
And when i am done i will go over to cruisers, just for the challenge in doing it, and getting just as good with a cruiser as i am with an escort.
Impossible?
Nope, if it is, i've met the impossible several times....
Nothing is broken.
You just need to think outside your own box.
IMO, cruisers should be 5 on the saucer, 2 or 3 in the rear. That would give them huge firing potential in the forward 270 degrees, but make them vulnerable from the rear. Cruisers could do area-denial work at that point, grab a piece of map and hold it. Escorts should fly faster, and have 3/3 or 4/4 setup that gives them high-damage directional with cannons and turret like now. They could run around and grab area quickly, or get behind the cruisers and bring them down with agility + firepower. This is pretty much backwards from what we have now.
I'm increasing the damage of my teammates, because they aren't dying and flying out to heal. I'm eating hits that would have either flattened me outright before or have me reaching for evasive manuvers to try and get distance to recover. Yes, my damage is lower, by a substantial factor, but by actually flying the ship how it was designed it is proving to be quite the asset.
I've missed one optional, and yes, it was due to low DPS. Yes, if I was in a DPS machine at that moment I could have saved the day. But I did more then my share of damage in that run, while I do try to make up for that in my usual play, I certainly did all I could in that run. If you are top DPS in your tanking Gal-R you can only imagine the skill of the players you have scored for the run.
That is not a complaint. I actually enjoy pugs for the challenge and the need to approach things differently every time. Sure, pre-mades are great when you go in and all perform great and its magic. But there is also something to be said for coming in and being a hero and saving the day. It's funny how so many people say that is how they want to feel when playing, but instead of trying to carry a pug thru a bad situation like a true hero ship would, they instead moan about other people not performing. I say TRIBBLE it, roll up my sleeves, and jump in like the Enterprise would, here to save the day. I've digressed again.
Yeah, there are probably better ships for tanking, too, but I'm having a blast learning and flying the ship I've always really wanted... I'll likely end up switching the whole kit to my sci ody after a while, but for now I'm getting my money's worth.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
No, not this time, unless they mess it up even more!
But if they actually fix it as described, it will be hell alot more better and usefull, for everyone.
Subsystem targeting however...
Never seen any beam specialized attack do as much hull damage as that one.
And...
As long as i've used it, it's done what it should do, perhaps three - four times.
So that one should be updated too.
Yeah yeah, i'm a tac cap in an escort using beams... :-D
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
it is obviously a balance change. beams were overpowered, now they work as they should
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
Whats funny we noticed this bug on tribble four days ago and they still push it on holodeck.
Yeah but i guess the cryptic team think something like this "well it ain't broken on holodeck yet so let's patch it in so we can fix it and be heroes" :-D
Agreed.
team play in sto is a bit murky, especially if you do random stfs with random people.
You never know what you are getting untill you are in it.
A lot of players ahve stopped running 4x EPtX by using 2 or 3 technician doffs. Of course, on a ship like the Galaxy with so many intrinsic engi slots you don't really need to worry about that.
Unfortunately dps is the king. So you kill it faster your team benefits more.
Wait, wut? With a 5/3 setup? No, that would never work for holding ground. Besides, its space, "ground" is what's most available! You need to move or at the very least be an artillery style ship (carriers are sorta like this).
Its certainly "funny"... or rather, its funny its not surprising!
Hold on, I think you may be confusing some things. If you're not confused you might confuse others.
Comparing damage/dps survived is not actually terribly useful at all. The idea should be to not only survive while holding agro, but to also do as much damage as possible. Sure, pure tank bricks can be a thing and a fun diversion, but a DPS-y ,tanky, and agro holding cruiser are far more useful to a group than a pure unkillable brick that struggles to hold agro. In competent groups its not that big a deal, but in pugs a good cruiser's DPS matters.
You're forgetting one thing - to receive damage you have to take aggro so effectively if you're getting hit a lot you're doing a lot of dps (unless your team is a rainbow/skittle party)
what you want is both dmg taken and dmg done be high, so what you do is multiply
dmg done times dmg taken is much better a scale than dmg done / dmg taken
i pride myself on not only doing 8k dps but also taking loads of dmg as well so i guess i would fair very well in this scale;)
Your dps isn't as big an issue for holding agro if you've specced into Threat Control, as any tank should.
Bingo. Seriously.
Granted, the cruisers which can readily run it are generally the ones already considered the strongest.
I'd really like to see active doff slots scale with vessel size, so that cruisers have enough active doff slots to make better use of their limited tactical and science boff abilities; engineering boff abilities are just so gimp.