it is not impossible to get first place. but a competent tac with DHCs will just have the adv in those events, as the enemies wont long enough for the consistent dps to take real effect (this could be solved easily with a more controllable BFAW and a beam rapid fire ability tho)
I am not saying beams are bad. I am saying that escorts with DHCs are still better (and that is not a way to go sadly, imo), especially in pve
Just because SOMEONE (not you, necessarily) will say Pics or it didn't happen. Pics of my 1st Places in SB24, Gorn Minefield, and Klingon Scout Force... All done today
Formerly Known as Protector from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
Funny thing that. The first video he's using standard X which really didn't the same damage as the second video in which he's using ALL Romulan gear.
I also noticed that he's not using a single science captain, they are either tactical or engineer which further emphasizes my point about subsystem targeting skills.
Might wanna use better examples. If you or Vex can show me a video where you are actually doing the 10k dps using phasers alone, on a science ship, using subsystem targeting and killing as fast as tacticals do using DHC's with the scatter volley, then you can say there's nothing wrong but until then I'm not convinced because I've tried the three setups and unless you are all plasma in the romulan setup it just doesn't occur. sorry. (tried them on science ships btw)
Also, I'm not bringing this up because I want every ship to be massive escorts but there's a serious issue when cannons op everything else because it's not canon voyager enterprise D and runabouts in DS9 would all have used cannons had this been the case in these shows, and if you're going to design a game centered around DPS and killeveryone you meet in space (which this game has become) then it's only fair that each captain type have an equal chance at doing that much damage with any weapon they wish to use and without using a single setup (romulan gear with plasma everything) that's the point I'm trying to make.
Um the mk x common run... Stormy IS A SCI.
I see no reason at all that a sci should do the same damage with a beam boat as a tac captain in an escort and still be able to throw the horrifying things sci can do or bring the utility to a team that a sci or eng can. Tacs would be useless as being the class that can only dps. Successfull pvp teams are not teams made of all tacs. The really great teams bring 2-3 sci captains usually in beam boats.
I see no reason at all that a sci should do the same damage with a beam boat as a tac captain in an escort and still be able to throw the horrifying things sci can do or bring the utility to a team that a sci or eng can. Tacs would be useless as being the class that can only dps. Successfull pvp teams are not teams made of all tacs. The really great teams bring 2-3 sci captains usually in beam boats.
What I saw on this one was that the Enterprise D was definitely an engineer, it had the inverse nadeon ability which is not a boff ability. I have a sci and an engineer, my engineer is the only one with that power.
The main draw to the Romulan Plasma weapons as has already been mentioned are:
A: The Experimental Romulan Beam array, which has No Power Drain on it. This allows for a weapon coverage of 7 Broadside, 4 Fore and 4 Aft. (Experimental, Normal, Normal, Torpedo Fore; Normal, Normal, Normal, Kinetic Cutting Aft) while still maintaining the 'sweet spot' of 6 Broadside arrays in terms of power management.
B: The dual Plasma/Disruptor proc has a lot of synergy. Damage resistance debuffs are great as Attack Pattern Beta will show you which lets the straight-to-hull plasma burn do a bit more damage. Plus it stacks with Attack Pattern Beta as well for even more damage!
C: Plasma is great for stacking damage bonuses. Add in 3/4 Plasma Tac consoles (either Embassy +Pla's or normal,) the Romulan Harness 2 piece and that's a lot of bonus damage. The Harness 3 piece is also a 'free' Beam Overload on top of everything else.
Tentative Beam Fire at Will is an under appreciated ability. In terms of a damage buff it sits between Cannon Scatter Volley and Cannon Rapid Fire (Rapid Fire > Fire at Will > Scatter Volley) though it has a higher skill component to it. That is, the more shots 'wasted' with Fire at Will the less damage it does and vice versa. I note this as tentative because I don't have any hard numbers to back it up.
What I saw on this one was that the Enterprise D was definitely an engineer, it had the inverse nadeon ability which is not a boff ability. I have a sci and an engineer, my engineer is the only one with that power.
Watch it again. Turn the quality up maybe. Its posted in full 1080p. Stormy is in both videos where we do it as a group. She is most assuredly a science captain. In one video she flies an oddy (the free anniversary version) and the other she flies an intrepid.
The video where we use good gear shes infact the only non tac. The other video is my engineer, 2 other engineers a tac and stormy on her sci again.
Actually, I just swapped out my plasma beams for my old polarized disruptors, and even having to go down to blue xi consoles from purple, my damage is up.
Disruptor is turning out to be stronger then even stacking plasma goodies.
Of course, romulan plasma gets you both, but I don't have the beams yet.
Edit: I do fly a carrier, so I have pets that benefit from disruptor as well
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beams are broken. just because they are good for STFs (which are jokes anyway, concerning the required dps), the fact wont be different........
Haters gonna hate!
The recent 10k beam builds are clearly stated to be for PvE use, so why bring PvP into things; and if you do, why assume that PvP matters at all? STO is not a PvP game, it never has been. That ship sailed a long time ago, time to let it go I think.
Talking about jokes.... I find the counter to your counter to my counter type of PvP we have today feels more like a game of Simon than space combat..... or maybe Whackamole? Its less about fleet tactics, positioning, or piloting ability and more about getting off the right powers at the right time, I thought we were playing internet starships ?
The recent 10k beam builds are clearly stated to be for PvE use, so why bring PvP into things; and if you do, why assume that PvP matters at all? STO is not a PvP game, it never has been. That ship sailed a long time ago, time to let it go I think.
Talking about jokes.... I find the counter to your counter to my counter type of PvP we have today feels more like a game of Simon than space combat..... or maybe Whackamole? Its less about fleet tactics, positioning, or piloting ability and more about getting off the right powers at the right time, I thought we were playing internet starships ?
I'm just saying that PvP is such an essential component to an MMO; one that has significant impact on its overall longevity.
I think you're confused on what longevity means to a game like STO. I don't blame you or almost everyone else for not getting it, its a bit murky.
Longevity is often used when talking about sub games, they only last as long as they maintain their subs. In those games the focus is on maintaining and adding to long term players. For them PvP is one more factor that aids in player retention, so the onus is on them to keep it vibrant and updated.
In a game like STO, which is to say a churn game, longevity is harder to define. Somewhere I heard that the average player retention is at 38 days. I'm not sure how true that is or who said it, but it feels right. The "longevity" of a churn game is based around keeping and expanding a stream of churn players who will be milked as much as possible during their brief stay. So long as STO can keep bringing players faster than it looses them it extends its "longevity". This is why so many resources are spent on "improving" existing systems over and over again instead of new content, they want to get the 38 day players to stay and spend a little more. These short term players will never be competitive in PvP, due to gear and knowledge of the game, so they take no serious part in it. This is the real reason why no significant resources are going to be spent on PvP; in STO's case, it doesn't help with the game's longevity.
Similar. Probably not quite as high for me but there are people in my fleet that out damage me with beams. Id love to see other weapon sets and consoles that would give this kind of synergy if you wanted to max dps like this. I lose alot of utility in special consoles and such for raw damage. Ive tried a similar build in my fleet prometheus and with all the embassy and tac consoles Ive really only got 2 engineering console slots to put other items in.
I know alot of people that rave about anti-proton beams doing big damage but I really enjoy disruptors. I use the romulan gear as its got disruptors built in. But yes the fact of the matter is with other damage types you lose the sci console boosts and the 2 peice experimental set bonus giving you a boost as well.
I have fleet members that pull big damage like this using 6-7 beams of other weapon types though. My build is just one way of getting there.
Just because SOMEONE (not you, necessarily) will say Pics or it didn't happen. Pics of my 1st Places in SB24, Gorn Minefield, and Klingon Scout Force... All done today
I would never have asked for screenshots lol. I have beaten full groups of tacs in escorts and kumaris with a beam vesta sci char (and mind you those players were always camping for the action, like I had to repair the stuff while they were laready waiting for the enemy spawn), so I know how easy it is to beat incompetent players. my point was, that if god forbids, a competent player with such a setup shows up, you would have no chance (again just because the game is full of 3k dps escorts, does not mean that your 10k dps beam cruiser is superior to their setup, I have seen ppl do 5k dps in 10-13k dps builds, it only means that you are a better player with a better team)
The recent 10k beam builds are clearly stated to be for PvE use, so why bring PvP into things; and if you do, why assume that PvP matters at all? STO is not a PvP game, it never has been. That ship sailed a long time ago, time to let it go I think.
if we balance the game properly, pvp might just come back. but that would mean we would have to step on loads of people's toes.
also the imbalance is in pve too, what my point really wanted to be, where DHCs will get you faster results
What makes me curious is just what % of total damage is that rommie beam putting out compared to the others combined. From what I've seen its a significant number.
That and I really wish we would stop using DPS parse numbers for performance and instead use Tau SB run times but that's just me
if we balance the game properly, pvp might just come back. but that would mean we would have to step on loads of people's toes.
also the imbalance is in pve too, what my point really wanted to be, where DHCs will get you faster results
Here's something to consider. You have a choice, no one is forcing anyone to fly a cruiser or a sci vessel. No one is forcing anyone to REQUIRE a sci vessel or cruiser in their teams. If you choose to fly a cruiser or a sci vessel there are benefits and drawbacks. Make a choice.
If you feel that DHCs are the greatest things ever you are free to fly a ship that uses them, heck you can even fly a cruiser with them IF you choose to go KDF. "I" will choose to keep my sci and engi alts flying sci vessels and cruisers respectively and enjoying an alternate play style. If a player has a compulsive need to always be in the most straight out DPS capable ship, get an escort.
Now, if you want to say that its impossible for a newby to actually know what's what I'll agree with you. Newbys pretty much pick their class blind, its almost like a trap. While others may disagree I would support having some sort of class change tokens being made available for purchase.
Here's something to consider. You have a choice, no one is forcing anyone to fly a cruiser or a sci vessel. No one is forcing anyone to REQUIRE a sci vessel or cruiser in their teams. If you choose to fly a cruiser or a sci vessel there are benefits and drawbacks. Make a choice.
If you feel that DHCs are the greatest things ever you are free to fly a ship that uses them, heck you can even fly a cruiser with them IF you choose to go KDF. "I" will choose to keep my sci and engi alts flying sci vessels and cruisers respectively and enjoying an alternate play style. If a player has a compulsive need to always be in the most straight out DPS capable ship, get an escort.
Now, if you want to say that its impossible for a newby to actually know what's what I'll agree with you. Newbys pretty much pick their class blind, its almost like a trap. While others may disagree I would support having some sort of class change tokens being made available for purchase.
I don't think anyone is denying that there are drawbacks for flying sci and cru ships, what we're all saying is that the drawbacks far far outweigh the benefits at this point and they shouldnt.
This combined with the magical nature of the tactical skills (being both buff and protection in the attack patterns with 0 explanation as to how they suddenly burn thru shields like they weren't there compared to classes that actually have explanations like science or technology) and the easy nature of cannons when compared to the gimped or pidgeonholed nature of beams and beam builds makes using any other class of ships other then the carriers useless in a DPScentric game.
Sure we can all use plasma and romulan sets but why should that be the sole setup of beams that actually makes the cut? I literally found no other dps build in these forums for beam centric cru or sci ships and I spent 1 hour digging thru them. That says alot about what's wrong.
If you are looking at DPS centric builds, of course at the moment they all use plasma. Extra damage is extra damage. Point is, the extra plasma damage, even tho it looks statistically impressive, is not even as much DPS as running straight up disruptor. This is in an Atrox using all 4 sci slots as +pla and the romulan set bonus and the energy free beam.
Yes, romulan plasma gets you both bonuses, but look at what I am saying. To get a boost that is not even as strong of a boost as a simple proc, I am forced to use all my sci slots on threat consoles, forced to take a torp, and roped into using weapons that technically have two less mods.
I'd hazard a guess in the right circumstances, I could load the right universals in those slots and do better, if spikier, DPS.
Also, nobody in their right mind is saying that beams out perform cannons. That is a given. That is by design. They have a wider firing arc, so a lower maximum damage. If I can park with front face, of course I will be able to out perform beams. If I'm nimble I'll likely be able to out perform beams.
Beams become useful in situations where you want to keep moving in your ship, but getting face is difficult. Sure, you *CAN* run an STF parked... but... you lose a ton of defense. You lose mobility. Running beams on a big boat can easily make up for the minor loss of theoretical top end DPS by affording the pilot a far greater uptime.
I do not care if Johnny tac over there is doing more damage in their front facing DHC beastie. That makes sense. In the past I did not believe that the gap between single cannons and single beams was small enough. I have since changed my opinion, because as I've been learning and growing I've been able to get better at the stratagies that apply to a beam boats.
Say again that cannons out DPS beams... Go ahead... Nobody sane debates that. Nobody sane would say that it should be the opposite, tho. Beams are low damage, high firing arc, and for their designed purpose they are working quite well.
Oooohhh... that's right... they aren't great for PvP... Well I suppose we can put that on the list of every other perfectly legitimate PvE tactic that doesn't fare well in PvP... like well over bloody half of them.
Edit: I'm actually considering *DOWNGRADING* from beams now... I'm doing so much DPS that I'm getting threat on every bloody thing... did HO with my fleet last night and event the threat control eng cruiser couldn't pull off me, and I was running 3x -threat...
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I do not care if Johnny tac over there is doing more damage in their front facing DHC beastie
well you should care. Johnny is doing much more for the game then you, as every pve is dps oriented. also Johnny has no problem tanking the same damage, as you are tanking, while dealing the dmg he does
I don't think anyone is denying that there are drawbacks for flying sci and cru ships, what we're all saying is that the drawbacks far far outweigh the benefits at this point and they shouldnt.
My opinion, plasma is to the point of "broken", not because of any one thing, but because of the collection of things
1) Plasma damage is available for multiple weapon types, where everything else is limited to one type. EG, plasma energy weapons, plasma torpedoes, eject warp plasma, etc. So you can specialize in plasma damage and you have a lot of tactical options available, while the guy that builds a ship around ~phaser weapons or ~quantums can only the one class of weapons effectively.
2) Plasma is one of only two energy weapon type that does extra damage with its proc. All energy weapons do the same base damage and then apply some kind of proc, but only anti-proton and plasma energy weapons do additional immediate damage with their proc. This makes it one of the better "hull-drain" weapons out there, even if its just a couple of percentage points in the long-run it is still a couple of percentage points, and if you have two equal ships the one with hull-draining crit is probably going to win.
3) Plasma is the only weapon that does DoT, which comes from the extra-damage proc. DoT for damage is not a problem except that it requires a second heal, whereas the extra damage from AP weapons can be healed at the same time as the base damage.
4) Plasma post-game gear. There are no ~phasers or ~quantum weapons to compete with Omega or Romulan reputation rewards and are available to casual players (I'm excluding T5 fleets since that is completely different in terms of accesssibilty to casual players). Where are the phaser arrays that do not drain energy? If you have spec'd into ~phasers and have done the full reputation grind, your reward is to have less damage potential than somebody who specs into plasma. Also the fact that this gear boosts the normal weapons and DoT crits way beyond what can be done with the normal ~phaser weapons.
All together, you can spec into plasma with post-game gear that raises your normal beams and cannons and torps and EWP AoE to obscene levels and use up twice the number of heals, while the guys who spec into ~photons can only use energy weapons that only do the same degree of random procs. Yeah its pretty much broken.
Quickest fix would probably be to cut the base damage of plasma energy weapons and projectiles in half. Horrific, I know.
I can only discuss the math so many times before it becomes redundant.
Parse it out. Do the math.
Plasma is ahead, but the margin is not as high as people freak out about. You have to invest very heavily to see the returns, to the point that I often wonder if it is worth the investment.
Tho I don't know why I bother, too many people out there that would be happier if they rolled a tac that cling to character classes they do not enjoy going to freak out every time another ship does more damage...
Edit: To me a much more pressing balance concern is the fact that the romulan threat consoles make every sci console other then the field generator a piece of vendor junk. Kinda late for a nerf, but they should have had less of their sci stat, so that you had to choose between a romulan console or a straight up sci console.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Some of us high end scis and engs are quite happy with our place.
lol? I know ignorance is bliss. but being inferior is happiness too?
beams are fine, but as long as DHCscorts can outDPS and outTank a cruiser or sci, while they have nearly no added value, beams will stay broken as they are.
Inferior, or playing our class well enough not to dispair about our lower DPS?
One thing I noticed, the good scis and engs don't complain about being broken, and they perform adequately.
Its only the poorly performing ones that cry endlessly.
If you want to be the damage king, but didn't pick tac at the character select screen, don't be disapointed when you aren't the damage king.
If you really don't like your roll as a sci or an eng, re-roll, nothing is stopping you. You will be happier if you are playing a class that gives you what you want out of a class, instead of trying to pigeonhole one class type into another.
There is no need of it.
Edit: Did people somewhere along the line forget that this is a co-operative game?
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Comments
Just because SOMEONE (not you, necessarily) will say Pics or it didn't happen. Pics of my 1st Places in SB24, Gorn Minefield, and Klingon Scout Force... All done today
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
Um the mk x common run... Stormy IS A SCI.
I see no reason at all that a sci should do the same damage with a beam boat as a tac captain in an escort and still be able to throw the horrifying things sci can do or bring the utility to a team that a sci or eng can. Tacs would be useless as being the class that can only dps. Successfull pvp teams are not teams made of all tacs. The really great teams bring 2-3 sci captains usually in beam boats.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
Parse. Parse. Parse. *PARSE*
Tool tips lie. Tool tips bug. Tool tips manage to not be updated for years at a stretch.
If you aren't parsing your data, you do not have any data.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
What I saw on this one was that the Enterprise D was definitely an engineer, it had the inverse nadeon ability which is not a boff ability. I have a sci and an engineer, my engineer is the only one with that power.
A: The Experimental Romulan Beam array, which has No Power Drain on it. This allows for a weapon coverage of 7 Broadside, 4 Fore and 4 Aft. (Experimental, Normal, Normal, Torpedo Fore; Normal, Normal, Normal, Kinetic Cutting Aft) while still maintaining the 'sweet spot' of 6 Broadside arrays in terms of power management.
B: The dual Plasma/Disruptor proc has a lot of synergy. Damage resistance debuffs are great as Attack Pattern Beta will show you which lets the straight-to-hull plasma burn do a bit more damage. Plus it stacks with Attack Pattern Beta as well for even more damage!
C: Plasma is great for stacking damage bonuses. Add in 3/4 Plasma Tac consoles (either Embassy +Pla's or normal,) the Romulan Harness 2 piece and that's a lot of bonus damage. The Harness 3 piece is also a 'free' Beam Overload on top of everything else.
Tentative
Watch it again. Turn the quality up maybe. Its posted in full 1080p. Stormy is in both videos where we do it as a group. She is most assuredly a science captain. In one video she flies an oddy (the free anniversary version) and the other she flies an intrepid.
The video where we use good gear shes infact the only non tac. The other video is my engineer, 2 other engineers a tac and stormy on her sci again.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
Disruptor is turning out to be stronger then even stacking plasma goodies.
Of course, romulan plasma gets you both, but I don't have the beams yet.
Edit: I do fly a carrier, so I have pets that benefit from disruptor as well
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Haters gonna hate!
The recent 10k beam builds are clearly stated to be for PvE use, so why bring PvP into things; and if you do, why assume that PvP matters at all? STO is not a PvP game, it never has been. That ship sailed a long time ago, time to let it go I think.
Talking about jokes.... I find the counter to your counter to my counter type of PvP we have today feels more like a game of Simon than space combat..... or maybe Whackamole? Its less about fleet tactics, positioning, or piloting ability and more about getting off the right powers at the right time, I thought we were playing internet starships ?
PvP is a major component for any MMO.
Not STO, it exists in Limbo and that's being kind. I'm not particularly happy about it, but lying to ourselves will not help things.
i would love some phaser infused consoles for my dreadnoughts lance
Hmph, I know.
I'm just saying that PvP is such an essential component to an MMO; one that has significant impact on its overall longevity.
I think you're confused on what longevity means to a game like STO. I don't blame you or almost everyone else for not getting it, its a bit murky.
Longevity is often used when talking about sub games, they only last as long as they maintain their subs. In those games the focus is on maintaining and adding to long term players. For them PvP is one more factor that aids in player retention, so the onus is on them to keep it vibrant and updated.
In a game like STO, which is to say a churn game, longevity is harder to define. Somewhere I heard that the average player retention is at 38 days. I'm not sure how true that is or who said it, but it feels right. The "longevity" of a churn game is based around keeping and expanding a stream of churn players who will be milked as much as possible during their brief stay. So long as STO can keep bringing players faster than it looses them it extends its "longevity". This is why so many resources are spent on "improving" existing systems over and over again instead of new content, they want to get the 38 day players to stay and spend a little more. These short term players will never be competitive in PvP, due to gear and knowledge of the game, so they take no serious part in it. This is the real reason why no significant resources are going to be spent on PvP; in STO's case, it doesn't help with the game's longevity.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
I know alot of people that rave about anti-proton beams doing big damage but I really enjoy disruptors. I use the romulan gear as its got disruptors built in. But yes the fact of the matter is with other damage types you lose the sci console boosts and the 2 peice experimental set bonus giving you a boost as well.
I have fleet members that pull big damage like this using 6-7 beams of other weapon types though. My build is just one way of getting there.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
if we balance the game properly, pvp might just come back. but that would mean we would have to step on loads of people's toes.
also the imbalance is in pve too, what my point really wanted to be, where DHCs will get you faster results
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
That and I really wish we would stop using DPS parse numbers for performance and instead use Tau SB run times but that's just me
Here's something to consider. You have a choice, no one is forcing anyone to fly a cruiser or a sci vessel. No one is forcing anyone to REQUIRE a sci vessel or cruiser in their teams. If you choose to fly a cruiser or a sci vessel there are benefits and drawbacks. Make a choice.
If you feel that DHCs are the greatest things ever you are free to fly a ship that uses them, heck you can even fly a cruiser with them IF you choose to go KDF. "I" will choose to keep my sci and engi alts flying sci vessels and cruisers respectively and enjoying an alternate play style. If a player has a compulsive need to always be in the most straight out DPS capable ship, get an escort.
Now, if you want to say that its impossible for a newby to actually know what's what I'll agree with you. Newbys pretty much pick their class blind, its almost like a trap. While others may disagree I would support having some sort of class change tokens being made available for purchase.
I don't think anyone is denying that there are drawbacks for flying sci and cru ships, what we're all saying is that the drawbacks far far outweigh the benefits at this point and they shouldnt.
This combined with the magical nature of the tactical skills (being both buff and protection in the attack patterns with 0 explanation as to how they suddenly burn thru shields like they weren't there compared to classes that actually have explanations like science or technology) and the easy nature of cannons when compared to the gimped or pidgeonholed nature of beams and beam builds makes using any other class of ships other then the carriers useless in a DPScentric game.
Sure we can all use plasma and romulan sets but why should that be the sole setup of beams that actually makes the cut? I literally found no other dps build in these forums for beam centric cru or sci ships and I spent 1 hour digging thru them. That says alot about what's wrong.
Yes, romulan plasma gets you both bonuses, but look at what I am saying. To get a boost that is not even as strong of a boost as a simple proc, I am forced to use all my sci slots on threat consoles, forced to take a torp, and roped into using weapons that technically have two less mods.
I'd hazard a guess in the right circumstances, I could load the right universals in those slots and do better, if spikier, DPS.
Also, nobody in their right mind is saying that beams out perform cannons. That is a given. That is by design. They have a wider firing arc, so a lower maximum damage. If I can park with front face, of course I will be able to out perform beams. If I'm nimble I'll likely be able to out perform beams.
Beams become useful in situations where you want to keep moving in your ship, but getting face is difficult. Sure, you *CAN* run an STF parked... but... you lose a ton of defense. You lose mobility. Running beams on a big boat can easily make up for the minor loss of theoretical top end DPS by affording the pilot a far greater uptime.
I do not care if Johnny tac over there is doing more damage in their front facing DHC beastie. That makes sense. In the past I did not believe that the gap between single cannons and single beams was small enough. I have since changed my opinion, because as I've been learning and growing I've been able to get better at the stratagies that apply to a beam boats.
Say again that cannons out DPS beams... Go ahead... Nobody sane debates that. Nobody sane would say that it should be the opposite, tho. Beams are low damage, high firing arc, and for their designed purpose they are working quite well.
Oooohhh... that's right... they aren't great for PvP... Well I suppose we can put that on the list of every other perfectly legitimate PvE tactic that doesn't fare well in PvP... like well over bloody half of them.
Edit: I'm actually considering *DOWNGRADING* from beams now... I'm doing so much DPS that I'm getting threat on every bloody thing... did HO with my fleet last night and event the threat control eng cruiser couldn't pull off me, and I was running 3x -threat...
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
well you should care. Johnny is doing much more for the game then you, as every pve is dps oriented. also Johnny has no problem tanking the same damage, as you are tanking, while dealing the dmg he does
qft
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
My priorities have been wrong this whole time!!! I have been enlightened!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
1) Plasma damage is available for multiple weapon types, where everything else is limited to one type. EG, plasma energy weapons, plasma torpedoes, eject warp plasma, etc. So you can specialize in plasma damage and you have a lot of tactical options available, while the guy that builds a ship around ~phaser weapons or ~quantums can only the one class of weapons effectively.
2) Plasma is one of only two energy weapon type that does extra damage with its proc. All energy weapons do the same base damage and then apply some kind of proc, but only anti-proton and plasma energy weapons do additional immediate damage with their proc. This makes it one of the better "hull-drain" weapons out there, even if its just a couple of percentage points in the long-run it is still a couple of percentage points, and if you have two equal ships the one with hull-draining crit is probably going to win.
3) Plasma is the only weapon that does DoT, which comes from the extra-damage proc. DoT for damage is not a problem except that it requires a second heal, whereas the extra damage from AP weapons can be healed at the same time as the base damage.
4) Plasma post-game gear. There are no ~phasers or ~quantum weapons to compete with Omega or Romulan reputation rewards and are available to casual players (I'm excluding T5 fleets since that is completely different in terms of accesssibilty to casual players). Where are the phaser arrays that do not drain energy? If you have spec'd into ~phasers and have done the full reputation grind, your reward is to have less damage potential than somebody who specs into plasma. Also the fact that this gear boosts the normal weapons and DoT crits way beyond what can be done with the normal ~phaser weapons.
All together, you can spec into plasma with post-game gear that raises your normal beams and cannons and torps and EWP AoE to obscene levels and use up twice the number of heals, while the guys who spec into ~photons can only use energy weapons that only do the same degree of random procs. Yeah its pretty much broken.
Quickest fix would probably be to cut the base damage of plasma energy weapons and projectiles in half. Horrific, I know.
Parse it out. Do the math.
Plasma is ahead, but the margin is not as high as people freak out about. You have to invest very heavily to see the returns, to the point that I often wonder if it is worth the investment.
Tho I don't know why I bother, too many people out there that would be happier if they rolled a tac that cling to character classes they do not enjoy going to freak out every time another ship does more damage...
Edit: To me a much more pressing balance concern is the fact that the romulan threat consoles make every sci console other then the field generator a piece of vendor junk. Kinda late for a nerf, but they should have had less of their sci stat, so that you had to choose between a romulan console or a straight up sci console.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
no. you should care, that while you are pretending to be supporting a dps class. a dps class can support itself, while doing superior dps
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
Some of us high end scis and engs are quite happy with our place.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
lol? I know ignorance is bliss. but being inferior is happiness too?
beams are fine, but as long as DHCscorts can outDPS and outTank a cruiser or sci, while they have nearly no added value, beams will stay broken as they are.
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
One thing I noticed, the good scis and engs don't complain about being broken, and they perform adequately.
Its only the poorly performing ones that cry endlessly.
If you want to be the damage king, but didn't pick tac at the character select screen, don't be disapointed when you aren't the damage king.
If you really don't like your roll as a sci or an eng, re-roll, nothing is stopping you. You will be happier if you are playing a class that gives you what you want out of a class, instead of trying to pigeonhole one class type into another.
There is no need of it.
Edit: Did people somewhere along the line forget that this is a co-operative game?
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard