Noticing a trend with beams

the1tigglet

Something that I think lends credibility to the argument about beams being out of balance is that all of the beam builds I'm seeing for 10k dps require plasma. That means that no other weapon types can hit 10k because none of the rest of them have DoTs on them.

That's what I've been seeing from digging thru the shipyard threads concerning beam boat dps for both cruisers and science ships.

sjokruhlica

Beams have suffered to the "defensive creep" that's occurred in the game; the special rep shield bonuses, and what not. I don't think that anything has to be nerfed. A simple adjustment to the power drain and shield penetration properties of beams would put them back where they belong in terms of usefulness and competitiveness. And that wouldn't violate the "wider firing arc = less damage" concept.

vexashen

The current patch notes for redshirt show that skills like beam fire at will have not been receiving the bonuses from [acc] [crth] etc... Also emergency power to weapons while it has been boosting weapon power has not been giving the damage buff its supposed to. Add both of those together being fixed in the next patch and beams should become much more powerful.

emacsheadroom

vexashen wrote: »

Also emergency power to weapons while it has been boosting weapon power has not been giving the damage buff its supposed to.

:eek: Really? The readouts from mouse hovering over weapons says otherwise.

magnumoftheblack

emacsheadroom wrote: »

:eek: Really? The readouts from mouse hovering over weapons says otherwise.

Yes really, because what it is supposed to be doing (Hence the mouse over) and what it is really doing are two different things. It would only be a small adjustment for the Devs.

nicha0

It has little to do with DoTs and everything to do with set bonuses and romulan consoles giving plasma damage, also the experimental beam drains no power which does much much more for overall damage than it really should.

kimmym

^

The DoT typically doesn't to a ton of damage, because things die before the DoT fully runs anyway. Don't get me wrong, damage is damage and I love my DoTs.

Its my 4x romulan threat consoles, romulan weapons 2pc, and the fact that my torps get a boost from plasma as well. And that experimental beam. Love that beam...

ursusmorologus

Actually, does anybody know if the Omega Weapon Amplifier 2-piece set bonus works with the plasma fire DoT? The Plasma Hyperflux 3-piece Romulan set bonus boosts DoT, it says so

emacsheadroom

Plasma weapons are balanced by the fact that MACO/Omega/KHG shields have the innate plasma resist. In PvP, Plasma is not the best to do damage unless your opponent is incompetently underequipped. In PvE it doesn't matter anyway.

ursusmorologus

emacsheadroom wrote: »

Plasma weapons are balanced by the fact that MACO/Omega/KHG shields have the innate plasma resist.

Those bonuses protect the shields, they do nothing to protect the hull that's on fire.

mikenight00

On my battlecruiser I run a Polaron 7 beam array set up (purple XII) with a KCB. I also run the Jem'hadar space set (XI). My skill set and other consoles are all set up to support my chosen energy type, and because i've built everything around Polarons I crank out 8,500 dps with my setup. Its a PvE setup though designed to make STFs go by faster, or in The Cure eSTF if my PuG messes up and hordes of enemy ships are heading towards the Kang.

cmdrskyfaller

beams would be functional only if they had a tertiary effect. Let cannons be dps oriented, beams need to be 'tool' oriented.

For this, cannons (except turrets) should have the current procs removed and compensated with a very minor boost in damage stat.


For example, tertiary effect per damage type for beams:

Phasers: 2.5% chance to increase target's timers (+5 secs)

Polaron: 2.5% chance to increase target's weapon power costs (+4 power)

Disruptor: 2.5% chance to prevent hull-heals (hazard, eng team, heal procs) from affecting target for 5 seconds.

Tetryon: 2.5% chance to prevent shield balancing for 5 seconds.

Antiproton: 2.5% chance to inflict a ship injury upon a crit hit.

Plasma: 2.5% chance to increase plasma fire dots by 50% for 5 seconds.

spockout1

cmdrskyfaller wrote: »

beams would be functional only if they had a tertiary effect. Let cannons be dps oriented, beams need to be 'tool' oriented.

For this, cannons (except turrets) should have the current procs removed and compensated with a very minor boost in damage stat.


For example, tertiary effect per damage type for beams:

Phasers: 2.5% chance to increase target's timers (+5 secs)

Polaron: 2.5% chance to increase target's weapon power costs (+4 power)

Disruptor: 2.5% chance to prevent hull-heals (hazard, eng team, heal procs) from affecting target for 5 seconds.

Tetryon: 2.5% chance to prevent shield balancing for 5 seconds.

Antiproton: 2.5% chance to inflict a ship injury upon a crit hit.

Plasma: 2.5% chance to increase plasma fire dots by 50% for 5 seconds.

I like the idea of making beams more potent, but I really dislike your suggested tertiary effects.

Balance = not there. Who wouldn't take Antiproton with a chance to inflict injuries on the enemy ship?

vesolc

Plasma DoT is a joke. I fly with 6 rom beams, experimental beam, 3 embassy consoles and DoT makes just 1% or less of my overall damage. meh

baudl

the plasma dot itself is joke and accounts for only about 3-4% of your overall dmg.
The thing that makes them really interesting is the synergy with the embassy consoles, and the disruptor proc ontop of it.

plasma and disruptors...among, if not the best weapontype for PVE...combined with consoles that boost the dmg further, deal sealed.

cmdrskyfaller

spockout1 wrote: »

I like the idea of making beams more potent, but I really dislike your suggested tertiary effects.

Balance = not there. Who wouldn't take Antiproton with a chance to inflict injuries on the enemy ship?

Considering its a 2.5% proc chance on what is essentially another 2.5% (or less) chance for the AP's critical proc to trigger... i'd say not many. The injury itself is a sort of very long term debuff but it is no big thing in PVE (though would be interesting to debuff boss npcs this way) and PVP would have it be a curious tool but not reliable like the other weapon types.

kimmym

Beams are fine. In the past I would not have agreed, but further testing and analysis have swayed my opinion.

ferdzso0

baudl wrote: »

the plasma dot itself is joke and accounts for only about 3-4% of your overall dmg.
The thing that makes them really interesting is the synergy with the embassy consoles, and the disruptor proc ontop of it.

plasma and disruptors...among, if not the best weapontype for PVE...combined with consoles that boost the dmg further, deal sealed.

lets not overstate to 3-4% that plasma dot. I am happy if it reaches 100dps also those embassy consoles (and the set bonus) are not giving that much dmg bonus either (however it is noticable none the less).

the key behind the plasma beam builds is the fact that you have one weapon that drains no weapon power (while giving a low dmg bonus to all the rest of the weapons), and that romulan plasma has a disruptor proc.
if there was a disruptor beam that drains no weapon power, that would be the king against other weapon types in pve

kimmym

3% might be looking on the wrong page, or maybe they just got lucky.

If you are using ACT and look at either the auto-attack out or skill/ability out it will give you a different percentage then if you look at Outgoing Damage.

Outgoing Damage is the one that has both combined, so a 3% on the split would work out to about 1% on the total.

Edit: Plasma Fire is on Skill/Ability (Out).

momaw

cmdrskyfaller wrote: »

beams would be functional only if they had a tertiary effect. Let cannons be dps oriented, beams need to be 'tool' oriented.

For this, cannons (except turrets) should have the current procs removed and compensated with a very minor boost in damage stat.


For example, tertiary effect per damage type for beams:

Phasers: 2.5% chance to increase target's timers (+5 secs)
(...)

Not a fan. Cannon advantage would be 100% always-available, but beams would still have only a small chance of intermittently doing something cool. Proc effects need to have durations more in the 15-20 second range, like disruptor breach, in order to start relying on them as a basic feature of the weapon.

vexashen

emacsheadroom wrote: »

Plasma weapons are balanced by the fact that MACO/Omega/KHG shields have the innate plasma resist. In PvP, Plasma is not the best to do damage unless your opponent is incompetently underequipped. In PvE it doesn't matter anyway.

My beam overload / romulan beam overoad / rapid fire spike damage bop says otherwise. You can preload a beam overload, hit a different beam overload and the romulan set bonus overload. Decloak and fire all 3 back to back and then rapid fire anything that survives.

vexashen

ferdzso0 wrote: »

lets not overstate to 3-4% that plasma dot. I am happy if it reaches 100dps also those embassy consoles (and the set bonus) are not giving that much dmg bonus either (however it is noticable none the less).

the key behind the plasma beam builds is the fact that you have one weapon that drains no weapon power (while giving a low dmg bonus to all the rest of the weapons), and that romulan plasma has a disruptor proc.
if there was a disruptor beam that drains no weapon power, that would be the king against other weapon types in pve

If you stack 2-3 embassy consoles even just the mk x's give 8.4% to plasma damage each without diminishing returns. Conversely if you arent using plasmas they stack a higher and higher chance to add a plasma fire. Aka your proc rate is very high. I do agree that the plasma fire isnt that great especially in high damage builds that tear through pvp really fast. The biggest mistake most people make with beams is that they dont watch their weapon power drain. 8 beams is almost always a terrible idea. I never run more than 6-7 beams. 7 usually only with the experimental beam as it draws no power. Also you could run 7 beams easily as a klingon with the plasmonic leach. So in theory with this beam you could run 8 and not suffer massive weapon drain.

the1tigglet

momaw wrote: »

Not a fan. Cannon advantage would be 100% always-available, but beams would still have only a small chance of intermittently doing something cool. Proc effects need to have durations more in the 15-20 second range, like disruptor breach, in order to start relying on them as a basic feature of the weapon.

I agree with this science disable skills and weapon procs should definitely get a boost on beams, and the beam target skills should definitely last more then 5 seconds when fired. They also need to remove the self debuff on damage, just because we are targeting a subsystem doesn't mean the force of the attack went poof.

I also agree with what another person said on this thread that it's also the Romulan kit, that just lends further credibility to the argument. There's quite a few things seriously wrong with beams that need to be addressed at the very least when they release the LoR patch.

kimmym

^
In regards to your sig, carriers say hi!

You escorts can escort us.

Edit: And if you can watch the videos in Vexashen's sig and still think beams are broken, then I don't know what to tell you.

ferdzso0

kimmym wrote: »

^
In regards to your sig, carriers say hi!

You escorts can escort us.

Edit: And if you can watch the videos in Vexashen's sig and still think beams are broken, then I don't know what to tell you.

beams are broken. just because they are good for STFs (which are jokes anyway, concerning the required dps), the fact wont be different. take it to SB24 or Gorn Minefield. a tac with a DHC will get first place from you, even if you bring stable 11k dps in infected, just because he bursts trhough the whole mission.
get into pvp. your steady dps will hurt escorts probably. yet they will be more effective with constant bursts.

at this point the problem is not with beams being ineffective, the problem is, escorts and DHCs being still way more effective

jonathanlonehawk

In regards to Plasma Beam builds being the only ones to reach 10k+ DPS... My Fleet Phasers on my Fleet Regent disagree: 12k+ DPS And best of all: they're BLUE!

jonathanlonehawk

kimmym wrote: »

^
In regards to your sig, carriers say hi!

You escorts can escort us.

Edit: And if you can watch the videos in Vexashen's sig and still think beams are broken, then I don't know what to tell you.

ferdzso0 wrote: »

beams are broken. just because they are good for STFs (which are jokes anyway, concerning the required dps), the fact wont be different. take it to SB24 or Gorn Minefield. a tac with a DHC will get first place from you, even if you bring stable 11k dps in infected, just because he bursts trhough the whole mission.
get into pvp. your steady dps will hurt escorts probably. yet they will be more effective with constant bursts.

at this point the problem is not with beams being ineffective, the problem is, escorts and DHCs being still way more effective

Bwhahaha -- I FARM Gorn minefield and SB24 and regularly take first place. Even from guys in Kumaris. With my cruisers, with beams. Vex did SB24 and took first with his 10k fleet Galaxy.

And as for PvP. I run my cruiser and with with my team can get the most damage and most kills regularly as well. And that can be against premades.

Mind you, I'm a tac in a cruiser so YMMV. But yeah, I do okay.

kimmym

Oh I understand, trust me. I'm a very recent convert and I parse like mad all the time.

Every time I tried before I was a dismal failure.

Continued research and practice, brought on by the consistency of the "beams are broken" threads, and some good advice from the pro beam boat flyers out there, and I'm hitting numbers I would not have believed possible before.

Beams do some nice things in the right hands with the right builds. Don't assume personal limitations as limitations of the equipment.

ferdzso0

jonathanlonehawk wrote: »

Bwhahaha -- I FARM Gorn minefield and SB24 and regularly take first place. Even from guys in Kumaris. With my cruisers, with beams. Vex did SB24 and took first with his 10k fleet Galaxy.

And as for PvP. I run my cruiser and with with my team can get the most damage and most kills regularly as well. And that can be against premades.

Mind you, I'm a tac in a cruiser so YMMV. But yeah, I do okay.

it is not impossible to get first place. but a competent tac with DHCs will just have the adv in those events, as the enemies wont long enough for the consistent dps to take real effect (this could be solved easily with a more controllable BFAW and a beam rapid fire ability tho)

kimmym wrote: »

Beams do some nice things in the right hands with the right builds. Don't assume personal limitations as limitations of the equipment.

I am not saying beams are bad. I am saying that escorts with DHCs are still better (and that is not a way to go sadly, imo), especially in pve

the1tigglet

kimmym wrote: »

^
In regards to your sig, carriers say hi!

You escorts can escort us.

Edit: And if you can watch the videos in Vexashen's sig and still think beams are broken, then I don't know what to tell you.

Funny thing that. The first video he's using standard X which really didn't the same damage as the second video in which he's using ALL Romulan gear.

I also noticed that he's not using a single science captain, they are either tactical or engineer which further emphasizes my point about subsystem targeting skills.

Might wanna use better examples. If you or Vex can show me a video where you are actually doing the 10k dps using phasers alone, on a science ship, using subsystem targeting and killing as fast as tacticals do using DHC's with the scatter volley, then you can say there's nothing wrong but until then I'm not convinced because I've tried the three setups and unless you are all plasma in the romulan setup it just doesn't occur. sorry. (tried them on science ships btw)

Also, I'm not bringing this up because I want every ship to be massive escorts but there's a serious issue when cannons op everything else because it's not canon voyager enterprise D and runabouts in DS9 would all have used cannons had this been the case in these shows, and if you're going to design a game centered around DPS and killeveryone you meet in space (which this game has become) then it's only fair that each captain type have an equal chance at doing that much damage with any weapon they wish to use and without using a single setup (romulan gear with plasma everything) that's the point I'm trying to make.

kimmym

The tac in white x gear did 6.5k.

That is plenty damage.