About how a movie that was in development at the same time and released before a game might have influenced that game...? Er...what am I supposed to be thinking about again?
Nimoy was there with Emmert to show initial gameplay trailers after having finished filming for JJTrek.
Are you trying to suggest that the two were oblivious to what the other was doing? There was a change in JJTrek to appeal to a larger audience - there have been multiple changes in STO to appeal to a larger audience.
You know...like...the big May update for STO...know what else is coming out in May?
If the sci pops a fully buffed sensor scan on you... I would bet the sci FBP would in fact kill you much quicker then the alphed up version.
Ahh, memories
A fully buffed Sensor Scan + fbp3 combo is very, very effective when you use it correctly. A tractor beam is nice in that mix too, since you can keep your target facing you... another reason auto-fire is bad.
Main Topic:
As someone who has played sci through all of it's stages in STO, we are so close to replaceable right now, that it is scary. If it weren't for SNB, there realliy wouldn't be any reason for us. Everyone would just put a tac in an escort and see who can coordinate their alphas more efficiently.
I think my only problem with Tacs boosting sci power damage doesn't lie with the Tac Captains, but rather with the fact that S5 and the new skill tree took away the ability for Sci captains to boost their own powers in any meaningful way. Anyone remember the ST3, SciFleet combo? It could make anything you fired off ,with the buffs active, absolutely devastating. I believe that sci captains in sci ships should be able to do something devastating, with their boff abilities, every once in a while.
The current situation has truly limited sci to being the replacements for engineers, on top of their original duties. You go heal heavy with a Commander level CC ability (since you can't put a heal there), use your SNB and Sensor Scan when appropriate, and pump out some form of DOT or Tranny damage while trying to keep your teammates alive. Doing anything else lessens your value to a team right now, a problem compounded by the current state of Engineers...
About how a movie that was in development at the same time and released before a game might have influenced that game...? Er...what am I supposed to be thinking about again?
Nimoy was there with Emmert to show initial gameplay trailers after having finished filming for JJTrek.
Are you trying to suggest that the two were oblivious to what the other was doing? There was a change in JJTrek to appeal to a larger audience - there have been multiple changes in STO to appeal to a larger audience.
You know...like...the big May update for STO...know what else is coming out in May?
Last post I will make on this topic.
Art inspiration from the movie, perhaps. Gameplay inspiration from the movie, no evidence. Just stahp.
tac captains dealing the most damage with everything and anything is how it should be. its the class that only deals damage, another captain type out damaging it in any way makes no sense.
Not its not. They should only receive the highest damage from using weapons not sci abilities. They should not boost them. Period.
engineers suck because they are redundant due to defensive power creep, or theres something else available to everyone that mimics their skills. but in a lot of matches, with out a sci around no one would ever die
Engineers are ok. Their power systems stuff is great for cruisers and carriers. Not so good for escorts though BUT they sure beat science in escorts big time.
energy siphon can be fairly potent actually, but TR has to be broken. it does basically nothing. having 99 PI cuts shield and energy drains in half, its rare you will find a challenging opponent without 99 PI, those sci skills definitely need work. but the rest of sci, especially properly doffed, is still devastating for controlling
Yep. All drains are absolutely non-functional. The only ship that can actually use drains is the breen warship and thats because it has the one extra 3-minute timer drain ability that when stacked with all others can actually shut down something. Sci ships however...cannot.
I did a simple test with a friend. Subsystem disable shield 3 on my end (9pnts flow cap, 3 flow cap consoles mk11 blue, max aux power) vs his 100 shield power (total).
He had no deflector equipped so no bonus to insulators from it. He only had 2 points in power insulator skill.
On my end, the subsystem shield 3 power description said it should drain 93 power.
Siphon and tyken each drained well over 20 each. Plasmonic leech shouldve taken a bit as well.
Fired subsystem first on its own. he only lost 10 power. Repeated this ten times counting only the times the shield did drop due to the proc...to make sure it wasnt a fluke.. only 10 power loss each time.
wow. from 93 down to 10 with just 2 points in insulators VS my much,much higher flow cap skill. geez.
Not its not. They should only receive the highest damage from using weapons not sci abilities. They should not boost them. Period.
SAYS WHO? there is no authority who decides what makes sense or not. you (not necessarily you who im quoting) can bend over backwards all you want to justify tac buffs magically making weapons hit harder, but it makes no more scientific sense then those buffs causing tractor emitters, anomaly emitters, or what ever is casting these sci skills to deal more damage. whatever magic causes a phaser bank to hit harder has the same right to make a tractor emitter hit harder. your skills and consoles further back up how powerful these things are.
theres no difference really, the device on your ships that cast these sci skills are no different then a more conventional weapon bank. what class should deal the most damage in every ship? tac. which class should control and debuff the best in any ship? sci. those fundamental truths are at least functioning correctly. arbitrarily removing the tac effect from those energy and knetic sci skills would destroy an interesting synergy, and make a tac sci more useless then an eng scort.
use your scis correctly, follow the advise of the folks talking about how to make sci captains hurt, and stop being jellos of tacs. the damage output of tacs at their best is less then half as powerful as heals at their best. all they can do is shoot hoping to get somewere, they have no way to counter impenetrable defense. you do.
A martial artist can take a certain stance to increase the damage they do with their fists, feet, elbows, knees, etc - with weapons they might be wielding.
A martial artist can shout a kiai to also increase the above damage.
Give the martial artist a beaker full of acid...and...neither their stance nor any shout is going to increase the damage of that acid.
A sniper can take up a certain position to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.
A sniper can regulate their breathing to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.
No matter how the sniper positions themselves nor how they regulate their breathing...will they increase the acidity of the acid in a beaker if you give it to them.
A tank commander can inspire his crew...
A tank commander cannot inspire the acid in a beaker...
Everybody is aware of how fragile Tacs are because of their extraordinary egos and the need to feel special compared to everybody else...but it's a far cry from saying that they need to be nerfed doing XYZ which they should be doing and saying that...well, it's acid in a beaker - like WTF?
edit: Now if that martial artist had a degree in chemistry...that would definitely be cool to see what he or she could do.
A martial artist can take a certain stance to increase the damage they do with their fists, feet, elbows, knees, etc - with weapons they might be wielding.
A martial artist can shout a kiai to also increase the above damage.
Give the martial artist a beaker full of acid...and...neither their stance nor any shout is going to increase the damage of that acid.
A sniper can take up a certain position to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.
A sniper can regulate their breathing to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.
No matter how the sniper positions themselves nor how they regulate their breathing...will they increase the acidity of the acid in a beaker if you give it to them.
A tank commander can inspire his crew...
A tank commander cannot inspire the acid in a beaker...
Everybody is aware of how fragile Tacs are because of their extraordinary egos and the need to feel special compared to everybody else...but it's a far cry from saying that they need to be nerfed doing XYZ which they should be doing and saying that...well, it's acid in a beaker - like WTF?
edit: Now if that martial artist had a degree in chemistry...that would definitely be cool to see what he or she could do.
your analogies completely fail. there is no opportunity to apply a personal touch like there would be fireing a gun or mixing chemicals. there are 500 layers of technology between the person pressing the button and the effect, be it an energy beam or a repulsing tractor beam. there is a complete reliance on the vast technology to do everything on its own, other then activate itself. the skill points arent even skill points, its really how reenforced particular systems are on your ship, how big your particle generator is or what ever.
theres no way to explain how tac buffs can magically make weapons deal an extra 50% to twice their damage, just as theres no way to explain how they effect things that arent a beam, cannon or torpedo. trying to draw some line or distinction is a laughable cause.
you know what the difference between the button that fires weapon and the button that fires a tractor beam? nothing, other then its label or color. thanks to the magic of video games, a damage multiplier is applied to each, by the captain who's only role is to apply the most damage.
tacs make damage harderest, deal with it. get over your sci inferiority complex.
I think my only problem with Tacs boosting sci power damage doesn't lie with the Tac Captains, but rather with the fact that S5 and the new skill tree took away the ability for Sci captains to boost their own powers in any meaningful way. Anyone remember the ST3, SciFleet combo? It could make anything you fired off ,with the buffs active, absolutely devastating. I believe that sci captains in sci ships should be able to do something devastating, with their boff abilities, every once in a while. ...
+2
FIX Science power in general first to bring them back to what they where before f2p.
This will make sci captain better, and maybe give sci captain another buff bigger than sci fleet to boost sci power.
Then look at tact effect sci.
Till then, if they remove Tact effect sci power , all sci ship would then be 100% useless in anything.
Sto Is like a house of cards if they take something away it make so many more things usless if they build more structure then they can take piece away more effectivly.
;and yes ST+ Sfleet, old shield stripper 12k , grav well that where like black wholes. Sto was a lot more fun back then, now its just dumb DHC builds
Nova Core
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions Zeadonouse ToLate
;and yes ST+ Sfleet, old shield stripper 12k , grav well that where like black wholes. Sto was a lot more fun back then, now its just dumb DHC builds
Well that's debatable... I'm not sure the 4+ sci teams need to make any sort of come back.
I think that is where a lot of the "sour grapes" comes from. (and I am not singling out anyone on that). At one time not that long ago Sci was very overpowered. Sci fleet was a joke, Stripping was out of control. (I'm sorry but the ability to 100% remove 45k worth of shielding in 3-5s was game breaking in a bad way... people complain about the dumb mines now... that is exactly what it was like with every sci ship popping a CPB3 tachyon combo)
I know some claim Cryptic went to far with 50% resists... but I will say in there defense if you forget about the QQ and just build your sci ship... you find the 50% isn't really that bad... strip builds still work mostly... drain builds due to issues with tykens blow, really though a TR fix still won't fix the issue with hazards simply wiping power drains completely. Gravity well... isn't near as bad as people claim... there was a time when it was basicly broken and I think people long for being able to slot one and spend no points at all on it. GW with 9 points in and a console or 2 does its job very well. (as long as you don't try to snare omega burning escorts with it)
Is SCI as strong as it was a year ago... NO... is that bad though. I don't think so. Frankly pre F2P and resists but post Sci Fleet it was laughably over powered to be flying a sci sci.
As it is Sci Sci is a great anti escort ship. Its easier for an average player to do a escort better then a sci sci... so its not shocking you see 3 escorts for every half decent sci ship. Still pretty much any premade is likely to have more Sci Sci then Tac Scorts... and NO that isn't simply because its an extra nuke. 1 Sci Ship can shut down pretty much any escort... a really well played sci ship can shut down 2.
No one wants to see 5 man sci teams with Mine nests and CPB x 5s again... I for one am glad Cryptic has implemented a check to that idea... Mines work better these days... CPB is still powerful with out being an Iwin button. (lets face it its the only way to strip shields that ignores resists even if it can be resisted by 50% at times)
your analogies completely fail. there is no opportunity to apply a personal touch like there would be fireing a gun or mixing chemicals. there are 500 layers of technology between the person pressing the button and the effect, be it an energy beam or a repulsing tractor beam. there is a complete reliance on the vast technology to do everything on its own, other then activate itself. the skill points arent even skill points, its really how reenforced particular systems are on your ship, how big your particle generator is or what ever.
Um, actually - it's a mix - in regards to the skill points. It's a combination of what the character knows and equipment that boosts the overall effectiveness of that skill.
You need 84 in Particle Generators for a Sci to train FBP3. That's 84 PrtG skill - it's not a case of having 3x PrtG Mk XII consoles that give you 90 pts. You need the skill to be able to train.
One can simply look at a mouse to see an example of this. Compare an old two button wheel mouse to a 15+ button laser mouse...the end result is the combination of the person's skill with the mouse and the technology they're using.
theres no way to explain how tac buffs can magically make weapons deal an extra 50% to twice their damage, just as theres no way to explain how they effect things that arent a beam, cannon or torpedo. trying to draw some line or distinction is a laughable cause.
I don't know, cause you know...there's this thing where Tac Skills are in Red - Tac BOFFs are Red - if you unhide/show the BOFF Bar - Tac Abilities are surrounded by Red...looking at the Tac Skills you see Weapons Training, Energy Weapons, Projectile Weapons, EW Specialization, PW Specialization... one might put A & B together (as Cryptic has partially) that Tac Abilities would affect Weapons.
you know what the difference between the button that fires weapon and the button that fires a tractor beam? nothing, other then its label or color. thanks to the magic of video games, a damage multiplier is applied to each, by the captain who's only role is to apply the most damage.
To apply the most damage. Yes. A Tac in an Escort should do the most damage in the game. That doesn't mean that a Tac in a Sci should do more damage than a Sci in a Sci with Sci abilities.. The Tac in the Escort should do more damage than the Sci in the Sci. Because the Tac's role is to do the most damage in the game. That doesn't mean the most damage with everything in the game. Just the most damage. Nobody's questioning that. Okay, well there are folks out there that question that. Heck, even I've argued for overall DPS equality over an extended period of time - but that's only from a Tac in an Escort's need to withdraw or receive support to stay in the fight - there's no arguing that the Tac's short term DPS should be the highest in the game.
tacs make damage harderest, deal with it. get over your sci inferiority complex.
Again, look at praxi's signature. Makes my thoughts on Sci quite clear. They're the only folks that concern me in the game. Tacs don't bother me. I bet the other Eng will get bored before me. It's the Sci that ruins my day.
I'm the guy posting about SNB not clearing everything. Posting about how spammable HE ruins plasma as a damage form. Heck, posting that PH, HE, TSS should be Eng abilities - ST shouldn't have a shield heal - pointing to how Shield Healing is obviously an Eng thing.
I'm the guy asking for pseudo to-hit rolls on Sci abilities because it's mind boggling that somebody with a 30-40% to-hit against me with any of their weapons has a 100% to-hit with physical Sci abilities like SNB, Tractor Beam, Tachyon Beam.
I'm the guy asking about pseudo to-hit rolls on Sci abilities based on resist because the following example actually exists in the game:
Tom has 9 in Sensors, 4x +30 Sensors, other Sensors/Sci buffing gear, 125 Aux.
Rick has 0 in Sensors, no Sensors/Sci buffing gear, 25 Aux.
Harry has 0 in CMS, no CMS/Sci buffing gear, 25 Aux.
Harry's chance to use his Jam Sensors I against Tom and Rick is the same. 100%. Like WTF?
Heck, I even asked recently about the "Magic" of all the increased CrtH and how it's affecting various things.
That battle to try to bring some logic to Science can't happen while they've been nerfed elsewhere because of a Tac's ability to boost Sci abilities better than a Sci can.
Yes, Geko's got STO as Escorts Online - the devs are all Sisko/Defiant/DS9 fanbois.
There are Tacs whining that they're too squishy. There are Tacs whining that they're not killing things fast enough - there's too much healing.
It's not all Tacs, but by God - there are just so many Tacs out there acting like spoiled little brats...it's hard not to side with just about anything anybody says against them just to stick it to them.
But that's not what this is about it. It's not about nerfing Tacs into oblivion so that Sci do the most damage. It's about Cryptic going through the trouble to have separated things...and...then basically throwing that separation away all but from the start.
Elite Fleet Disruptors (both a HDR and a SDR debuff)
Tet Glider
Leech
I fought two guys in Krenns using that...did far more shields go poof than a Sci with CPB/Tach Beam/Tach Mines. You stay out of range of the Sci, you easily break the arc on Tac Beam, you just destroy the mines.
Course, Feds can't do that - with most folks fighting FvF - because they hate the KDF drain stuff, they may not even realize what they can do with shield destruction. Course, you could work that into it as well, eh?
unless your runing a dot or trans build, expect to deal next to no damage as a sci/sci. but thats fine, you should be seting up kills, thats your job, the damage you cause will neveer be enough to make a difference, so dont bother trying to deal any. control instead
VM- ruination of escorts or anything that doesnt have ET
PSW- puts a stop to TBs, TBR, tach beam, ES, EWP, and any other skill that has a duration like that
GW- an aoe hold that can hold pretty well with proper specing, the doff seems to work great too.
TBR- the push is what maters with a sci. get someone away from a healer and have the escorts pounce on them
you also got SNB and scan, the 2 greatest kill setup skills in the game. your escort friends take it from here.
if tac skills stopped buffing skills that deal energy or kinetic damage, there would never be a reason for a tac to fly a sci, that synergy would not exist. wile it can be entertaining to have damage buffed GW, PSW, FBP, and TBR, your not going to destroy anyone like you will in an escort, and your a sci ship on the field without an SNB and scan and sci fleet and the aoe resist thing.
sci captains seem to take it real personal when tac captains can deal more damage with THEIR skills. forgetting that its in no way a sci captains job to contribute to team success by dealing damage. any that a sci captain deals is just gravy.
the problem is that there are too many skills that give immunity to those skills, vm is useless now with human boffs as well as psw, yeah, tacticals boosting kinetic its ok for me, but not fdp
and about cpb, tachyon beams, they really suck, i mean, really, with flow caps maxed, using a lvl 3 cpb boosted by 4 flow caps consoles, i cant reach 5k shield strip, that, plus, power insulators of the enemy or power insulators consoles, makes a 5k skill to go down to 1k or 1.5k, that's nothing even for a boff, dual heavy cannons can do that with 1 hit, i wonder how it would go with tachyon beam beeing a 45arc skill, or a cpb 1/tb 1, i just cant find a use to them... they are just too weak
repulsors are ok, the dmg is poor but the mine clearing is fine
energy syphon is the best one i can find for pvp, but that will require aux maxed to do something, again, power insulators reduce its drain to half
your analogies completely fail. there is no opportunity to apply a personal touch like there would be fireing a gun or mixing chemicals. there are 500 layers of technology between the person pressing the button and the effect, be it an energy beam or a repulsing tractor beam. there is a complete reliance on the vast technology to do everything on its own, other then activate itself. the skill points arent even skill points, its really how reenforced particular systems are on your ship, how big your particle generator is or what ever.
theres no way to explain how tac buffs can magically make weapons deal an extra 50% to twice their damage, just as theres no way to explain how they effect things that arent a beam, cannon or torpedo. trying to draw some line or distinction is a laughable cause.
you know what the difference between the button that fires weapon and the button that fires a tractor beam? nothing, other then its label or color. thanks to the magic of video games, a damage multiplier is applied to each, by the captain who's only role is to apply the most damage.
tacs make damage harderest, deal with it. get over your sci inferiority complex.
get over your tactical superiority then ddks, is there a way to explain how tac buffs can magically boost the INCOMING DAMAGE ? making fbp better ?
Meh, there's too much passive aggressive aggro and outright aggro in this thread.
It's one of those things where there are really more than two sides to the discussion, multiple sides to the two sides if you will - and - well, there's a tendency for things to get applied to members of the other side that aren't particularly members of that particular subgroup on the other side. Kind of like most discussions, it's not so black and white - and - mud meant for Tom gets slung at Jerry even though Jerry doesn't agree with Tom on certain things...etc, etc, etc.
Meh, there's too much passive aggressive aggro and outright aggro in this thread.
It's one of those things where there are really more than two sides to the discussion, multiple sides to the two sides if you will - and - well, there's a tendency for things to get applied to members of the other side that aren't particularly members of that particular subgroup on the other side. Kind of like most discussions, it's not so black and white - and - mud meant for Tom gets slung at Jerry even though Jerry doesn't agree with Tom on certain things...etc, etc, etc.
tom's gotta admit jerry is better, because jerry is the favourit in the cartoon, just the way tacs are in sto.
shield stripping sucks, tacs can do better without having to go 125 aux, spending points in flow caps, just get some tach mines or something and boost their mechanical devices by implementing tac's mind power.
i can't live with this, really, how can someone be a sci and be fine with this ? apo is just immune to everything, while we get our skills nerfed, viral matrix and psw sucks now with human boffs, leaving me with fbp that can be boosted better by tacs, and energy syphon that is reduced to half by power insulators and can't disable a thing, that, again, tacticals can do better if they get a carrier with syphon drones
Neither of my Sci are well-built out - they're my #3 and #5 toons (so they're down on the food chain in regard to the love/though/etc they've received).
Deflector - Breen Mk XI
Engine - Breen Mk XI
Shield - Breen Mk XI
Weapons
Fore - Trans Torp Mk XII [Acc]x2[Dmg], Rapid Trans Torp Mk XI, Hargh'peng Torp Mk XI,Breen Cluster Torp
Aft - Tractor Mines, Breen Cluster Torp
Consoles
Tac - 3x Trans Compressor Mk XI
Eng - Nadeon, RCS Mk XI, Neut Mk XI
Sci - 3x Grav Gen Mk XI
Devices - SFM, Eng Batt
Neither of them are in the particular ship that I wish they were nor do they sport the gear/passives/etc that I wish they had. However, I've found them to be pretty effective at what I'm trying to do with both of them already and I look forward to their increased effectiveness should I give them the attention/investment.
The MDSSV quickly becomes a primary target when the KDF realizes he can see them. The Hegh'ta gets cursed at for being a sci spammer while tank busting.
But that's not what this is about it. It's not about nerfing Tacs into oblivion so that Sci do the most damage. It's about Cryptic going through the trouble to have separated things...and...then basically throwing that separation away all but from the start.
what are the advantages of destroying the tac sci niche? i cant think of 1. those sci skills? sci captains arent going to take over for tacs dealing all that damage with them, like you said. no one will deal that damage in them anymore. tac sci would be the most useless captain and ship combination, at least eng escort can make it easier for an eng to level, theres would be absolutely no synergy putting your tac in a sci.
why would the game be better off arbitrarily separated on a line of your choosing with no one dealing that level of damage with sci skills, and another ship/captain combo being made completely useless? because you have convinced your self it makes more sense for tac skills to magically buff weapons but not sci skills? why do you take this position, because you hate seeing tac captains dealing more damage with YOUR skills? a tac in a sci ship is not breaking the game, not dealing weapon spike, not debuffing worth a damn, hes the very definition of a selfish kirk ship.
everything but shield strips and TR works fine on sci ships if you arent a tard and load up on field gens instead of particle gens, flow caps, graviton gens or countermeasure consoles. the human doffs have not been a wonder cure for VM, its still extreamly effective, and even if its cleared by ET that doesn't stop the doff. useing a PSW that deals no damage to anyone but breaks ES just helped your team more then another tac shooting at a person under ES but has no way to clear it off of them. the most important things a sci can do involve dealing no damage.
im so tired of scis complaining about tacs and completely missing the point of their own existence. a sci is basically impossible for a tac in a traditional COM and LTC tac escort to deal with as it is, it can be juggled like a ball.
There are Tacs whining that they're too squishy. There are Tacs whining that they're not killing things fast enough - there's too much healing.
It's not all Tacs, but by God - there are just so many Tacs out there acting like spoiled little brats...it's hard not to side with just about anything anybody says against them just to stick it to them.
i haven't even seen pve'ers complain about escort squishyness for over a year, were are you seeing that? no one is even complaining about their damage ether, they still have the spike, its more then ever become the only weapon damage that kills. there hasn't been a single bratty tac for as long as i can remember. the only ones whining are sci captains. even eng captains are stoically trying to convince them selfs and others that they arent completely marginalized.
there is no tacs complaining about their lot in life at all. they are on defense because everyone else with their limited perspective think they are the problem. its actually that their spike is consistently balanced with the healing, and is functioning fairly well. its the other aspects like cruiser damage, some of the sci skills, regular tanking vs speed tanking, that have all been marginalized by 1 thing or the other. tacs are the only thing they have gotten right, nerfing some fundamental aspect of them now would prevent death, there are slim enough margins as it is. go ahead and nef that damnable bug ship though.
so many other things need buffing, id love to have my fed tac cruiser back. id love to see shield striping sci/sci torp boats be a thing again. id love to see even eng cruiser pressure force healing or drive away escorts again. none of that works anymore since ether F2P, season 6, or season 7.
what are the advantages of destroying the tac sci niche? i cant think of 1. those sci skills? sci captains arent going to take over for tacs dealing all that damage with them, like you said. no one will deal that damage in them anymore. tac sci would be the most useless captain and ship combination, at least eng escort can make it easier for an eng to level, theres would be absolutely no synergy putting your tac in a sci.
[...]
so many other things need buffing, id love to have my fed tac cruiser back. id love to see shield striping sci/sci torp boats be a thing again. id love to see even eng cruiser pressure force healing or drive away escorts again. none of that works anymore since ether F2P, season 6, or season 7.
but thats the point, compare a tac.sci with an eng/sci. One has a niche, the other doesn't..... We need synergy for the eng class badly. Pressure damage is one thing, but even if it is a sci ship as healer, we need a meaningful that an eng can do in that position.
In PvP, without it - some matches would never end - nobody would get a kill.
In PvE, without it - yeah...who would notice if it was missing? NPCs don't buff up like Players.
I believe that's where they're (the complaining Sci folk) are coming from.
In PvP, we don't want to lose the SNB. So you're going to want that Sci/Sci. In PvE, you don't want that. If you're bringing a Sci Vessel along for some control/etc - you want a Tac in it.
That Tac will not only do more damage with the actual weapons of the ship, they'll also do more damage with the Sci abilities. They'll bring FoMM which the NPCs aren't spamming TT and clearing. Tac Init will refresh their few Tac abilities faster - giving them that lil' extra edge as well. They'll bring another copy of Tac Fleet to run in the rotation to maximize the group's damage through the encounter. Heck, they take some hull damage and pop GDF - even more damage.
So why might the Sci/Sci out there complain?
The thing is, what they're asking for wouldn't result in them doing more damage as a Sci/Sci than a Tac/Sci could do.
If the Sci abilities were buffed for damage because they could no longer be affected by Tac abilities...then anybody, Tac/Eng/Sci would be doing the same damage with those abilities. Only the Tac could also boost the weapon damage coming from that Sci Vessel. The Tac would still do the most damage in it. The Tac would still bring more in the Sci than the Sci - since SNB would still be meh.
What it would change though - is the amount of damage the Sci did bring in that Sci. They might get fewer tells complaining that they're there.
It's kind of easy to see where they grumble about certain things like that.
Tac - brings additional damage to whatever ship they're in - it's not going to be the maximum DPS they could do - but they bring additional damage than what an Eng or Sci could bring to those ships.
Tac in a Cruiser? They boost the damage while being able to toss the heals.
Tac in a Sci? They boost the damage while being able to sling the control.
Even an Eng has it better off than the Sci in many cases, as funny as that may be.
Eng in an Escort? They boost their own survivability as well as the survivability of the rest of the team. (WTF? If you don't have to toss the heal to the Eng in the Escort, you can toss that heal to the Tac in the Escort. If you had two Tac Escorts and one heal available..)
Eng in a Sci? Just like an Eng in an Escort.
True, neither the Tac nor Eng can drop out SNB...that's PvP vs. PvE though.
Sci in an Escort? That can be pretty nifty - not as much damage, loss of the control stuff, but pretty easy to lineup that SNB.
Sci in a Cruiser? Hrmm, yeah - try to line up that SNB without a Jumper.
It's pretty easy to see where they're coming from on certain things. It's also pretty easy to see how some just don't know what they can actually do - however, there's no getting around that in PvE the Tac is going to be better. Heck, with the way they're doing various ships - there are interesting things you can do with a Tac in a Sci even in PvP (as long as you've got your SNBs somewhere).
but thats the point, compare a tac.sci with an eng/sci. One has a niche, the other doesn't..... We need synergy for the eng class badly. Pressure damage is one thing, but even if it is a sci ship as healer, we need a meaningful that an eng can do in that position.
The Eng doesn't participate in "The Kill" or in "The Denial"...
The Tac is obviously needed for "The Kill" - they apply the brutal burst damage after the Sci has created that opening.
The Sci is obviously needed for "The Kill" - without creating that opening, there's just so much resist/healing possible that nobody would die.
Even in "The Denial" - the Sci can SNB off buffs that would have helped for "The Kill" or drop out Scattering Field while slinging heals.
The Eng, unless they're the target of "The Kill" - isn't doing anything. By the time they are the target of "The Kill" - they're not getting any crosshealing from anybody else - so they're additional survivability isn't going to help them much. Pop!
Each Career should bring something to the Team - something to "The Kill", to "The Denial", or even to both.
Each Career should have some form of Synergy in each Ship. Depending on the Team, they might roll different ways with different Careers in different Ships - it wouldn't just be the standard cookie cutter stuff we have.
Course, the obvious danger there is that folks might find easy ways to exploit any such system. Might see five folks of the same Career in five different Ships - because there's just something about that Synergy that makes it "OP" compared to the rest. Maybe it's the three different Careers in the same five Ships. It could end up with less diversity than there is now.
I know I've said it elsewhere, but I'm really starting to get burnt out on PvP in this game. I'm playing less. When I do play, I'm most likely just to run through DOFFs and then log. I think I've spent most of my time logged in as a glitched KDF hunting BoPs that are hunting juicy Fed targets...thinking ahead, perhaps, to what Ker'rat might be like with Roms in there.
In PvE, without it - yeah...who would notice if it was missing? NPCs don't buff up like Players.
I believe that's where they're (the complaining Sci folk) are coming from.
In PvE ... If you're bringing a Sci Vessel along for some control/etc - you want a Tac in it.
That Tac will not only do more damage with the actual weapons of the ship, they'll also do more damage with the Sci abilities. They'll bring FoMM which the NPCs aren't spamming TT and clearing. Tac Init will refresh their few Tac abilities faster - giving them that lil' extra edge as well. They'll bring another copy of Tac Fleet to run in the rotation to maximize the group's damage through the encounter. Heck, they take some hull damage and pop GDF - even more damage.
If the Sci abilities were buffed for damage because they could no longer be affected by Tac abilities...then anybody, Tac/Eng/Sci would be doing the same damage with those abilities. Only the Tac could also boost the weapon damage coming from that Sci Vessel. The Tac would still do the most damage in it. The Tac would still bring more in the Sci than the Sci - since SNB would still be meh.
What it would change though - is the amount of damage the Sci did bring in that Sci. They might get fewer tells complaining that they're there.
It's kind of easy to see where they grumble about certain things like that.
Tac - brings additional damage to whatever ship they're in - it's not going to be the maximum DPS they could do - but they bring additional damage than what an Eng or Sci could bring to those ships.
Tac in a Cruiser? They boost the damage while being able to toss the heals.
Tac in a Sci? They boost the damage while being able to sling the control.
True, neither the Tac nor Eng can drop out SNB...that's PvP vs. PvE though.
It's pretty easy to see where they're coming from on certain things. It's also pretty easy to see ... there's no getting around that in PvE the Tac is going to be better.
I was going to say something like this, you beat me to it. I think the biggest complaint is in PvE. This is in the wrong forum section. In STFs a Sci/Sci needs more damage to be worthwhile to the team (as does Eng/Eng TBO)
The solution may be twofold...
1. Give NPCs buffs that SNB can be useful against
2. Make NPCs do more tankable damage and less 1-shots that even Eng/Eng have trouble with
Of course this has all been said before, the newer crowds just keep coming to the same conclusions after a while.
In PvE there is no reason to play anything but Tac in space.
(PS. why is it so bad if 5 Sci/Sci can kill a guy with Science but okay that 5 Tac/Tac can do the same thing?)
...
I know I've said it elsewhere, but I'm really starting to get burnt out on PvP in this game. I'm playing less. When I do play, I'm most likely just to run through DOFFs and then log.
...
I feel the same way. It has been a long 3 years and starting over again as Romulan, even though I wanted it, is not as appealing with the current system.
Hopefully we get some BIG changes in May other than just a new faction and content. Maybe some balance mechanics, PvP, and some form of AI.
im only going to talk about pvp, were this stuff maters and all that. i give little concern to pve, since it can be done in a shuttle. they made the vesta so sci captains in pve could have sci ships that can deal damage more like an escort, have at. nothing is ever going to out do a tac in pve, not unless its all reimagined.
but thats the point, compare a tac.sci with an eng/sci. One has a niche, the other doesn't..... We need synergy for the eng class badly. Pressure damage is one thing, but even if it is a sci ship as healer, we need a meaningful that an eng can do in that position.
i agree that thats the point, but theres far to much focus on the destruction of a niche, instead of the restoration of eng captains, cruisers, and anything thats not a tac in an escort.
save your breath until bort is done playing with his christiline toy though.
so petty, i don't have what i want, so others need to have it taken away. lobby for your own class to be improved, instead of another class nerfed, and people would be nicer
attack pattern delta is removed by tactical team, it has a low application time, and i only have a window of 5 seconds if i use it 100% well timed, wich means ill have 33% of my fbp boosted, but not as good as yours during the 15 seconds , beeing a fbp2 ( and i beeing a science officer didnt't fill attack patterns )
i mean, some of the tactical captain skills, if not all, shoud boost only starship weapons training, in the same % they boost now, only boosting torpedos and weapons, not isometric charge or fbp for example, leaving that job to debuff skills, like fire on my mark or sensor scan
Comments
About how a movie that was in development at the same time and released before a game might have influenced that game...? Er...what am I supposed to be thinking about again?
Nimoy was there with Emmert to show initial gameplay trailers after having finished filming for JJTrek.
Are you trying to suggest that the two were oblivious to what the other was doing? There was a change in JJTrek to appeal to a larger audience - there have been multiple changes in STO to appeal to a larger audience.
You know...like...the big May update for STO...know what else is coming out in May?
Ahh, memories
A fully buffed Sensor Scan + fbp3 combo is very, very effective when you use it correctly. A tractor beam is nice in that mix too, since you can keep your target facing you... another reason auto-fire is bad.
Main Topic:
As someone who has played sci through all of it's stages in STO, we are so close to replaceable right now, that it is scary. If it weren't for SNB, there realliy wouldn't be any reason for us. Everyone would just put a tac in an escort and see who can coordinate their alphas more efficiently.
I think my only problem with Tacs boosting sci power damage doesn't lie with the Tac Captains, but rather with the fact that S5 and the new skill tree took away the ability for Sci captains to boost their own powers in any meaningful way. Anyone remember the ST3, SciFleet combo? It could make anything you fired off ,with the buffs active, absolutely devastating. I believe that sci captains in sci ships should be able to do something devastating, with their boff abilities, every once in a while.
The current situation has truly limited sci to being the replacements for engineers, on top of their original duties. You go heal heavy with a Commander level CC ability (since you can't put a heal there), use your SNB and Sensor Scan when appropriate, and pump out some form of DOT or Tranny damage while trying to keep your teammates alive. Doing anything else lessens your value to a team right now, a problem compounded by the current state of Engineers...
Art inspiration from the movie, perhaps. Gameplay inspiration from the movie, no evidence. Just stahp.
Back to topic.
Not its not. They should only receive the highest damage from using weapons not sci abilities. They should not boost them. Period.
Engineers are ok. Their power systems stuff is great for cruisers and carriers. Not so good for escorts though BUT they sure beat science in escorts big time.
Yep. All drains are absolutely non-functional. The only ship that can actually use drains is the breen warship and thats because it has the one extra 3-minute timer drain ability that when stacked with all others can actually shut down something. Sci ships however...cannot.
I did a simple test with a friend. Subsystem disable shield 3 on my end (9pnts flow cap, 3 flow cap consoles mk11 blue, max aux power) vs his 100 shield power (total).
He had no deflector equipped so no bonus to insulators from it. He only had 2 points in power insulator skill.
On my end, the subsystem shield 3 power description said it should drain 93 power.
Siphon and tyken each drained well over 20 each. Plasmonic leech shouldve taken a bit as well.
Fired subsystem first on its own. he only lost 10 power. Repeated this ten times counting only the times the shield did drop due to the proc...to make sure it wasnt a fluke.. only 10 power loss each time.
wow. from 93 down to 10 with just 2 points in insulators VS my much,much higher flow cap skill. geez.
Tossed everything at him. Siphon, tyken, polaron beams, subsystem shield 3...
he never went below 30 shield power. And he was sitting in the middle of the tyken.
So yeah.. there is no balance or love for sci. escort uber alles.
SAYS WHO? there is no authority who decides what makes sense or not. you (not necessarily you who im quoting) can bend over backwards all you want to justify tac buffs magically making weapons hit harder, but it makes no more scientific sense then those buffs causing tractor emitters, anomaly emitters, or what ever is casting these sci skills to deal more damage. whatever magic causes a phaser bank to hit harder has the same right to make a tractor emitter hit harder. your skills and consoles further back up how powerful these things are.
theres no difference really, the device on your ships that cast these sci skills are no different then a more conventional weapon bank. what class should deal the most damage in every ship? tac. which class should control and debuff the best in any ship? sci. those fundamental truths are at least functioning correctly. arbitrarily removing the tac effect from those energy and knetic sci skills would destroy an interesting synergy, and make a tac sci more useless then an eng scort.
use your scis correctly, follow the advise of the folks talking about how to make sci captains hurt, and stop being jellos of tacs. the damage output of tacs at their best is less then half as powerful as heals at their best. all they can do is shoot hoping to get somewere, they have no way to counter impenetrable defense. you do.
A martial artist can shout a kiai to also increase the above damage.
Give the martial artist a beaker full of acid...and...neither their stance nor any shout is going to increase the damage of that acid.
A sniper can take up a certain position to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.
A sniper can regulate their breathing to increase their chance of landing a more damaging shot.
No matter how the sniper positions themselves nor how they regulate their breathing...will they increase the acidity of the acid in a beaker if you give it to them.
A tank commander can inspire his crew...
A tank commander cannot inspire the acid in a beaker...
Everybody is aware of how fragile Tacs are because of their extraordinary egos and the need to feel special compared to everybody else...but it's a far cry from saying that they need to be nerfed doing XYZ which they should be doing and saying that...well, it's acid in a beaker - like WTF?
edit: Now if that martial artist had a degree in chemistry...that would definitely be cool to see what he or she could do.
your analogies completely fail. there is no opportunity to apply a personal touch like there would be fireing a gun or mixing chemicals. there are 500 layers of technology between the person pressing the button and the effect, be it an energy beam or a repulsing tractor beam. there is a complete reliance on the vast technology to do everything on its own, other then activate itself. the skill points arent even skill points, its really how reenforced particular systems are on your ship, how big your particle generator is or what ever.
theres no way to explain how tac buffs can magically make weapons deal an extra 50% to twice their damage, just as theres no way to explain how they effect things that arent a beam, cannon or torpedo. trying to draw some line or distinction is a laughable cause.
you know what the difference between the button that fires weapon and the button that fires a tractor beam? nothing, other then its label or color. thanks to the magic of video games, a damage multiplier is applied to each, by the captain who's only role is to apply the most damage.
tacs make damage harderest, deal with it. get over your sci inferiority complex.
+2
FIX Science power in general first to bring them back to what they where before f2p.
This will make sci captain better, and maybe give sci captain another buff bigger than sci fleet to boost sci power.
Then look at tact effect sci.
Till then, if they remove Tact effect sci power , all sci ship would then be 100% useless in anything.
Sto Is like a house of cards if they take something away it make so many more things usless if they build more structure then they can take piece away more effectivly.
;and yes ST+ Sfleet, old shield stripper 12k , grav well that where like black wholes. Sto was a lot more fun back then, now its just dumb DHC builds
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate
Well that's debatable... I'm not sure the 4+ sci teams need to make any sort of come back.
I think that is where a lot of the "sour grapes" comes from. (and I am not singling out anyone on that). At one time not that long ago Sci was very overpowered. Sci fleet was a joke, Stripping was out of control. (I'm sorry but the ability to 100% remove 45k worth of shielding in 3-5s was game breaking in a bad way... people complain about the dumb mines now... that is exactly what it was like with every sci ship popping a CPB3 tachyon combo)
I know some claim Cryptic went to far with 50% resists... but I will say in there defense if you forget about the QQ and just build your sci ship... you find the 50% isn't really that bad... strip builds still work mostly... drain builds due to issues with tykens blow, really though a TR fix still won't fix the issue with hazards simply wiping power drains completely. Gravity well... isn't near as bad as people claim... there was a time when it was basicly broken and I think people long for being able to slot one and spend no points at all on it. GW with 9 points in and a console or 2 does its job very well. (as long as you don't try to snare omega burning escorts with it)
Is SCI as strong as it was a year ago... NO... is that bad though. I don't think so. Frankly pre F2P and resists but post Sci Fleet it was laughably over powered to be flying a sci sci.
As it is Sci Sci is a great anti escort ship. Its easier for an average player to do a escort better then a sci sci... so its not shocking you see 3 escorts for every half decent sci ship. Still pretty much any premade is likely to have more Sci Sci then Tac Scorts... and NO that isn't simply because its an extra nuke. 1 Sci Ship can shut down pretty much any escort... a really well played sci ship can shut down 2.
No one wants to see 5 man sci teams with Mine nests and CPB x 5s again... I for one am glad Cryptic has implemented a check to that idea... Mines work better these days... CPB is still powerful with out being an Iwin button. (lets face it its the only way to strip shields that ignores resists even if it can be resisted by 50% at times)
Um, actually - it's a mix - in regards to the skill points. It's a combination of what the character knows and equipment that boosts the overall effectiveness of that skill.
You need 84 in Particle Generators for a Sci to train FBP3. That's 84 PrtG skill - it's not a case of having 3x PrtG Mk XII consoles that give you 90 pts. You need the skill to be able to train.
One can simply look at a mouse to see an example of this. Compare an old two button wheel mouse to a 15+ button laser mouse...the end result is the combination of the person's skill with the mouse and the technology they're using.
I don't know, cause you know...there's this thing where Tac Skills are in Red - Tac BOFFs are Red - if you unhide/show the BOFF Bar - Tac Abilities are surrounded by Red...looking at the Tac Skills you see Weapons Training, Energy Weapons, Projectile Weapons, EW Specialization, PW Specialization... one might put A & B together (as Cryptic has partially) that Tac Abilities would affect Weapons.
To apply the most damage. Yes. A Tac in an Escort should do the most damage in the game. That doesn't mean that a Tac in a Sci should do more damage than a Sci in a Sci with Sci abilities.. The Tac in the Escort should do more damage than the Sci in the Sci. Because the Tac's role is to do the most damage in the game. That doesn't mean the most damage with everything in the game. Just the most damage. Nobody's questioning that. Okay, well there are folks out there that question that. Heck, even I've argued for overall DPS equality over an extended period of time - but that's only from a Tac in an Escort's need to withdraw or receive support to stay in the fight - there's no arguing that the Tac's short term DPS should be the highest in the game.
Again, look at praxi's signature. Makes my thoughts on Sci quite clear. They're the only folks that concern me in the game. Tacs don't bother me. I bet the other Eng will get bored before me. It's the Sci that ruins my day.
I'm the guy posting about SNB not clearing everything. Posting about how spammable HE ruins plasma as a damage form. Heck, posting that PH, HE, TSS should be Eng abilities - ST shouldn't have a shield heal - pointing to how Shield Healing is obviously an Eng thing.
I'm the guy asking for pseudo to-hit rolls on Sci abilities because it's mind boggling that somebody with a 30-40% to-hit against me with any of their weapons has a 100% to-hit with physical Sci abilities like SNB, Tractor Beam, Tachyon Beam.
I'm the guy asking about pseudo to-hit rolls on Sci abilities based on resist because the following example actually exists in the game:
Tom has 9 in Sensors, 4x +30 Sensors, other Sensors/Sci buffing gear, 125 Aux.
Rick has 0 in Sensors, no Sensors/Sci buffing gear, 25 Aux.
Harry has 0 in CMS, no CMS/Sci buffing gear, 25 Aux.
Harry's chance to use his Jam Sensors I against Tom and Rick is the same. 100%. Like WTF?
Heck, I even asked recently about the "Magic" of all the increased CrtH and how it's affecting various things.
That battle to try to bring some logic to Science can't happen while they've been nerfed elsewhere because of a Tac's ability to boost Sci abilities better than a Sci can.
Yes, Geko's got STO as Escorts Online - the devs are all Sisko/Defiant/DS9 fanbois.
There are Tacs whining that they're too squishy. There are Tacs whining that they're not killing things fast enough - there's too much healing.
It's not all Tacs, but by God - there are just so many Tacs out there acting like spoiled little brats...it's hard not to side with just about anything anybody says against them just to stick it to them.
But that's not what this is about it. It's not about nerfing Tacs into oblivion so that Sci do the most damage. It's about Cryptic going through the trouble to have separated things...and...then basically throwing that separation away all but from the start.
Elite Fleet Disruptors (both a HDR and a SDR debuff)
Tet Glider
Leech
I fought two guys in Krenns using that...did far more shields go poof than a Sci with CPB/Tach Beam/Tach Mines. You stay out of range of the Sci, you easily break the arc on Tac Beam, you just destroy the mines.
Course, Feds can't do that - with most folks fighting FvF - because they hate the KDF drain stuff, they may not even realize what they can do with shield destruction. Course, you could work that into it as well, eh?
Elite Fleet Disruptors
Tet Glider
Leech
Siphon Drones
Aceton Assimilators
the problem is that there are too many skills that give immunity to those skills, vm is useless now with human boffs as well as psw, yeah, tacticals boosting kinetic its ok for me, but not fdp
and about cpb, tachyon beams, they really suck, i mean, really, with flow caps maxed, using a lvl 3 cpb boosted by 4 flow caps consoles, i cant reach 5k shield strip, that, plus, power insulators of the enemy or power insulators consoles, makes a 5k skill to go down to 1k or 1.5k, that's nothing even for a boff, dual heavy cannons can do that with 1 hit, i wonder how it would go with tachyon beam beeing a 45arc skill, or a cpb 1/tb 1, i just cant find a use to them... they are just too weak
repulsors are ok, the dmg is poor but the mine clearing is fine
energy syphon is the best one i can find for pvp, but that will require aux maxed to do something, again, power insulators reduce its drain to half
get over your tactical superiority then ddks, is there a way to explain how tac buffs can magically boost the INCOMING DAMAGE ? making fbp better ?
It's one of those things where there are really more than two sides to the discussion, multiple sides to the two sides if you will - and - well, there's a tendency for things to get applied to members of the other side that aren't particularly members of that particular subgroup on the other side. Kind of like most discussions, it's not so black and white - and - mud meant for Tom gets slung at Jerry even though Jerry doesn't agree with Tom on certain things...etc, etc, etc.
tom's gotta admit jerry is better, because jerry is the favourit in the cartoon, just the way tacs are in sto.
shield stripping sucks, tacs can do better without having to go 125 aux, spending points in flow caps, just get some tach mines or something and boost their mechanical devices by implementing tac's mind power.
i can't live with this, really, how can someone be a sci and be fine with this ? apo is just immune to everything, while we get our skills nerfed, viral matrix and psw sucks now with human boffs, leaving me with fbp that can be boosted better by tacs, and energy syphon that is reduced to half by power insulators and can't disable a thing, that, again, tacticals can do better if they get a carrier with syphon drones
Sci in a Mirror DSSV
Traits - Accurate, Elusive, Astrophysicist, Warp Theorist
Passives (only T2 in each)
New Rom - Precision
Omega - Omega Weapon Training
TT1, APD1
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtA1
JS1, HE2, TB3, GW3
PH1, TSS2, SS2
DOFFs - SDO(BFI), TBO(TB), DO(Deflector), GS(GW), BIO(SS)
Deflector - Jem'Hadar Mk XI
Engine - Breen Mk XI
Shields - Breen Mk XI
Weapons
Fore - 2x Phased Polaron Beam Array Mk XI [Acc]x2, Breen Cluster Torp
Aft - 2x Phased Polaron Beam Array Mk XI [Acc]x2, Breen Cluster Torp
Consoles
Tac - GPG, EPM
Eng - 2x RCS Mk XI, Neut Mk XI
Sci - 4x Sensor Probes Mk XII
Devices - SFM, Aux Batt, Eng Batt
Sci in a Hegh'ta BoP
Traits - Accurate, Elusive, Astrophysicist, Warp Theorist
Passives (not even T1)
New Rom - none
Omega - none
PH1, TSS2, GW1, PSW3
HE1, TB2, VM1
JS1, ST2
EPtS1, AtS1
DOFFs - SE(VM Spread), SE(VM Add), 2xPSS(Pho Rec), GS(GW Add)
Deflector - Breen Mk XI
Engine - Breen Mk XI
Shield - Breen Mk XI
Weapons
Fore - Trans Torp Mk XII [Acc]x2[Dmg], Rapid Trans Torp Mk XI, Hargh'peng Torp Mk XI, Breen Cluster Torp
Aft - Tractor Mines, Breen Cluster Torp
Consoles
Tac - 3x Trans Compressor Mk XI
Eng - Nadeon, RCS Mk XI, Neut Mk XI
Sci - 3x Grav Gen Mk XI
Devices - SFM, Eng Batt
Neither of them are in the particular ship that I wish they were nor do they sport the gear/passives/etc that I wish they had. However, I've found them to be pretty effective at what I'm trying to do with both of them already and I look forward to their increased effectiveness should I give them the attention/investment.
The MDSSV quickly becomes a primary target when the KDF realizes he can see them. The Hegh'ta gets cursed at for being a sci spammer while tank busting.
They're both a trip to play.
what are the advantages of destroying the tac sci niche? i cant think of 1. those sci skills? sci captains arent going to take over for tacs dealing all that damage with them, like you said. no one will deal that damage in them anymore. tac sci would be the most useless captain and ship combination, at least eng escort can make it easier for an eng to level, theres would be absolutely no synergy putting your tac in a sci.
why would the game be better off arbitrarily separated on a line of your choosing with no one dealing that level of damage with sci skills, and another ship/captain combo being made completely useless? because you have convinced your self it makes more sense for tac skills to magically buff weapons but not sci skills? why do you take this position, because you hate seeing tac captains dealing more damage with YOUR skills? a tac in a sci ship is not breaking the game, not dealing weapon spike, not debuffing worth a damn, hes the very definition of a selfish kirk ship.
everything but shield strips and TR works fine on sci ships if you arent a tard and load up on field gens instead of particle gens, flow caps, graviton gens or countermeasure consoles. the human doffs have not been a wonder cure for VM, its still extreamly effective, and even if its cleared by ET that doesn't stop the doff. useing a PSW that deals no damage to anyone but breaks ES just helped your team more then another tac shooting at a person under ES but has no way to clear it off of them. the most important things a sci can do involve dealing no damage.
im so tired of scis complaining about tacs and completely missing the point of their own existence. a sci is basically impossible for a tac in a traditional COM and LTC tac escort to deal with as it is, it can be juggled like a ball.
i haven't even seen pve'ers complain about escort squishyness for over a year, were are you seeing that? no one is even complaining about their damage ether, they still have the spike, its more then ever become the only weapon damage that kills. there hasn't been a single bratty tac for as long as i can remember. the only ones whining are sci captains. even eng captains are stoically trying to convince them selfs and others that they arent completely marginalized.
there is no tacs complaining about their lot in life at all. they are on defense because everyone else with their limited perspective think they are the problem. its actually that their spike is consistently balanced with the healing, and is functioning fairly well. its the other aspects like cruiser damage, some of the sci skills, regular tanking vs speed tanking, that have all been marginalized by 1 thing or the other. tacs are the only thing they have gotten right, nerfing some fundamental aspect of them now would prevent death, there are slim enough margins as it is. go ahead and nef that damnable bug ship though.
so many other things need buffing, id love to have my fed tac cruiser back. id love to see shield striping sci/sci torp boats be a thing again. id love to see even eng cruiser pressure force healing or drive away escorts again. none of that works anymore since ether F2P, season 6, or season 7.
but thats the point, compare a tac.sci with an eng/sci. One has a niche, the other doesn't..... We need synergy for the eng class badly. Pressure damage is one thing, but even if it is a sci ship as healer, we need a meaningful that an eng can do in that position.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
In PvP, without it - some matches would never end - nobody would get a kill.
In PvE, without it - yeah...who would notice if it was missing? NPCs don't buff up like Players.
I believe that's where they're (the complaining Sci folk) are coming from.
In PvP, we don't want to lose the SNB. So you're going to want that Sci/Sci. In PvE, you don't want that. If you're bringing a Sci Vessel along for some control/etc - you want a Tac in it.
That Tac will not only do more damage with the actual weapons of the ship, they'll also do more damage with the Sci abilities. They'll bring FoMM which the NPCs aren't spamming TT and clearing. Tac Init will refresh their few Tac abilities faster - giving them that lil' extra edge as well. They'll bring another copy of Tac Fleet to run in the rotation to maximize the group's damage through the encounter. Heck, they take some hull damage and pop GDF - even more damage.
So why might the Sci/Sci out there complain?
The thing is, what they're asking for wouldn't result in them doing more damage as a Sci/Sci than a Tac/Sci could do.
If the Sci abilities were buffed for damage because they could no longer be affected by Tac abilities...then anybody, Tac/Eng/Sci would be doing the same damage with those abilities. Only the Tac could also boost the weapon damage coming from that Sci Vessel. The Tac would still do the most damage in it. The Tac would still bring more in the Sci than the Sci - since SNB would still be meh.
What it would change though - is the amount of damage the Sci did bring in that Sci. They might get fewer tells complaining that they're there.
It's kind of easy to see where they grumble about certain things like that.
Tac - brings additional damage to whatever ship they're in - it's not going to be the maximum DPS they could do - but they bring additional damage than what an Eng or Sci could bring to those ships.
Tac in a Cruiser? They boost the damage while being able to toss the heals.
Tac in a Sci? They boost the damage while being able to sling the control.
Even an Eng has it better off than the Sci in many cases, as funny as that may be.
Eng in an Escort? They boost their own survivability as well as the survivability of the rest of the team. (WTF? If you don't have to toss the heal to the Eng in the Escort, you can toss that heal to the Tac in the Escort. If you had two Tac Escorts and one heal available..)
Eng in a Sci? Just like an Eng in an Escort.
True, neither the Tac nor Eng can drop out SNB...that's PvP vs. PvE though.
Sci in an Escort? That can be pretty nifty - not as much damage, loss of the control stuff, but pretty easy to lineup that SNB.
Sci in a Cruiser? Hrmm, yeah - try to line up that SNB without a Jumper.
It's pretty easy to see where they're coming from on certain things. It's also pretty easy to see how some just don't know what they can actually do - however, there's no getting around that in PvE the Tac is going to be better. Heck, with the way they're doing various ships - there are interesting things you can do with a Tac in a Sci even in PvP (as long as you've got your SNBs somewhere).
I can't even begin to describe just how pissed off that 4 hour Geko interview made me. I mean, I just can't even begin...
The Eng doesn't participate in "The Kill" or in "The Denial"...
The Tac is obviously needed for "The Kill" - they apply the brutal burst damage after the Sci has created that opening.
The Sci is obviously needed for "The Kill" - without creating that opening, there's just so much resist/healing possible that nobody would die.
Even in "The Denial" - the Sci can SNB off buffs that would have helped for "The Kill" or drop out Scattering Field while slinging heals.
The Eng, unless they're the target of "The Kill" - isn't doing anything. By the time they are the target of "The Kill" - they're not getting any crosshealing from anybody else - so they're additional survivability isn't going to help them much. Pop!
Each Career should bring something to the Team - something to "The Kill", to "The Denial", or even to both.
Each Career should have some form of Synergy in each Ship. Depending on the Team, they might roll different ways with different Careers in different Ships - it wouldn't just be the standard cookie cutter stuff we have.
Course, the obvious danger there is that folks might find easy ways to exploit any such system. Might see five folks of the same Career in five different Ships - because there's just something about that Synergy that makes it "OP" compared to the rest. Maybe it's the three different Careers in the same five Ships. It could end up with less diversity than there is now.
I know I've said it elsewhere, but I'm really starting to get burnt out on PvP in this game. I'm playing less. When I do play, I'm most likely just to run through DOFFs and then log. I think I've spent most of my time logged in as a glitched KDF hunting BoPs that are hunting juicy Fed targets...thinking ahead, perhaps, to what Ker'rat might be like with Roms in there.
I was going to say something like this, you beat me to it. I think the biggest complaint is in PvE. This is in the wrong forum section. In STFs a Sci/Sci needs more damage to be worthwhile to the team (as does Eng/Eng TBO)
The solution may be twofold...
1. Give NPCs buffs that SNB can be useful against
2. Make NPCs do more tankable damage and less 1-shots that even Eng/Eng have trouble with
Of course this has all been said before, the newer crowds just keep coming to the same conclusions after a while.
In PvE there is no reason to play anything but Tac in space.
(PS. why is it so bad if 5 Sci/Sci can kill a guy with Science but okay that 5 Tac/Tac can do the same thing?)
I feel the same way. It has been a long 3 years and starting over again as Romulan, even though I wanted it, is not as appealing with the current system.
Hopefully we get some BIG changes in May other than just a new faction and content. Maybe some balance mechanics, PvP, and some form of AI.
i agree that thats the point, but theres far to much focus on the destruction of a niche, instead of the restoration of eng captains, cruisers, and anything thats not a tac in an escort.
save your breath until bort is done playing with his christiline toy though.
and less synergy for tacs, no more boost to fbp
But I like my 1.3 damage reflect FBP 2 on my Tac/MVAE.
Throw in a Sensor Scan and AP: Delta.
"deal with it"
such nice people.
Do you even Science Bro?
attack pattern delta is removed by tactical team, it has a low application time, and i only have a window of 5 seconds if i use it 100% well timed, wich means ill have 33% of my fbp boosted, but not as good as yours during the 15 seconds , beeing a fbp2 ( and i beeing a science officer didnt't fill attack patterns )
i mean, some of the tactical captain skills, if not all, shoud boost only starship weapons training, in the same % they boost now, only boosting torpedos and weapons, not isometric charge or fbp for example, leaving that job to debuff skills, like fire on my mark or sensor scan