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tacticals boosting science skills
borgresearcher
Member Posts: 451 Arc User
what they did when tacticals started to boost science skills ? nerfed science skills, they didnt nerf the boosting capability of tacticals from theyr op skills, causing a dmg boost to everything
repulsors are weak, they make useless dmg without tactical skills, same for photonic shockwave and gravity well
gravity well cant hold a thing anymore, and tacticals still can boost it better than sci's
feedbackpulse is drastically boosted from tactical buffs too, i mean, you dont need to spend points on science skills, just go tactical, they can boost the damage the enemy is making, and reflect it harder ...
charged particle burst is super weak, i cant reach 5k shield strip even with 4 flow cap consoles and max aux, anyone have a shield of 15-20k average cap, that plus power insulators that recudes cpb damage by half, makes the skill useless, cpb and tachyon beam are useless now.
photonic shockwave dmg can be boosted better by tactical officers too, and the disable time is stupid because every tactical have the op skill called attack pattern omega that gives immunity to every single disable, hold, repel, gravity well etc etc, and still everybody has inertial dampers that recuces the disable time by half
the only skills that i find usefull for pvp are energy syphon and feedbackpulse, and perhaps repulsors/gw with doff to have a constant mine clearing, other skills are useless, cpb is only to decloak, sensor scan, gravity well, antiproton sweap do that too, tykens rift's drain is very weak too, and that is because tactical's can boost every single thing there is in the game, making science's job better than scientists, my brother quited engineer because nadion inversion is useless 95% of the time, only to counter energy drain builds, or to make some overloads, but devs forgot about torpedo boats of course, because tacticals boost any kind of dmg, and comparing nadion inversion/eps power transfer/eng fleet to the related tactical skill you will see that tacticals are op, because they can boost everything, they should only boost energy damage, leaving the kinetic for scientists, or making the kinetic damage from repulsors/psw/gw, modified by aux, plus a little boost in dmg, as well as the shield stripping skills of course, they can't do a ****
wanna try science in science vessel ? dont, that would require you to spend points on prtg,flow caps, etc etc, go tactical, they can boost feedbackpulse better than you wihout particle generators, they can make a 10k photonic shockwave, or almost kill you with only one repulsors bleed, and what the devs did for that to stop happening ? nerf science skills !!! and give attack pattern omega immunity to disables, holds, repels, movement debuffs, etc etc, cryptic dont want balance, they want the f*king jhas to be stronger and stronger
and they keep nerfing every single way that other classes have to kill tacs, aceton beam is BS, as well as dem, because someone discovered that dem worked nice with turrets, or that tackyon beam could strip half of a escort's shield if well boosted
and please, don't tell me "if you can't win a pvp in a sci/sci you are doing it wrong" because i know what i do, and if you dont believe it, post your in game name and we will have a fight.
tacticals are op because they can boost science skills better than scientists, and have better captain skills than engineers (definitely) and scientists, pressure damage is still super up, leaving the rest for tacticals that can boost all type of damage, and i cant make a significant ammount of damage without feedbackpulse on 1vs1's, and please, dont talk about that 10k vesta dps build, that was the most nooby post i ever saw.
tacticals shouldn't boost science skills they way they do, at least, stop boosting fbp and kinetic dmg from science skills, and give them a boost
repulsors are weak, they make useless dmg without tactical skills, same for photonic shockwave and gravity well
gravity well cant hold a thing anymore, and tacticals still can boost it better than sci's
feedbackpulse is drastically boosted from tactical buffs too, i mean, you dont need to spend points on science skills, just go tactical, they can boost the damage the enemy is making, and reflect it harder ...
charged particle burst is super weak, i cant reach 5k shield strip even with 4 flow cap consoles and max aux, anyone have a shield of 15-20k average cap, that plus power insulators that recudes cpb damage by half, makes the skill useless, cpb and tachyon beam are useless now.
photonic shockwave dmg can be boosted better by tactical officers too, and the disable time is stupid because every tactical have the op skill called attack pattern omega that gives immunity to every single disable, hold, repel, gravity well etc etc, and still everybody has inertial dampers that recuces the disable time by half
the only skills that i find usefull for pvp are energy syphon and feedbackpulse, and perhaps repulsors/gw with doff to have a constant mine clearing, other skills are useless, cpb is only to decloak, sensor scan, gravity well, antiproton sweap do that too, tykens rift's drain is very weak too, and that is because tactical's can boost every single thing there is in the game, making science's job better than scientists, my brother quited engineer because nadion inversion is useless 95% of the time, only to counter energy drain builds, or to make some overloads, but devs forgot about torpedo boats of course, because tacticals boost any kind of dmg, and comparing nadion inversion/eps power transfer/eng fleet to the related tactical skill you will see that tacticals are op, because they can boost everything, they should only boost energy damage, leaving the kinetic for scientists, or making the kinetic damage from repulsors/psw/gw, modified by aux, plus a little boost in dmg, as well as the shield stripping skills of course, they can't do a ****
wanna try science in science vessel ? dont, that would require you to spend points on prtg,flow caps, etc etc, go tactical, they can boost feedbackpulse better than you wihout particle generators, they can make a 10k photonic shockwave, or almost kill you with only one repulsors bleed, and what the devs did for that to stop happening ? nerf science skills !!! and give attack pattern omega immunity to disables, holds, repels, movement debuffs, etc etc, cryptic dont want balance, they want the f*king jhas to be stronger and stronger
and they keep nerfing every single way that other classes have to kill tacs, aceton beam is BS, as well as dem, because someone discovered that dem worked nice with turrets, or that tackyon beam could strip half of a escort's shield if well boosted
and please, don't tell me "if you can't win a pvp in a sci/sci you are doing it wrong" because i know what i do, and if you dont believe it, post your in game name and we will have a fight.
tacticals are op because they can boost science skills better than scientists, and have better captain skills than engineers (definitely) and scientists, pressure damage is still super up, leaving the rest for tacticals that can boost all type of damage, and i cant make a significant ammount of damage without feedbackpulse on 1vs1's, and please, dont talk about that 10k vesta dps build, that was the most nooby post i ever saw.
tacticals shouldn't boost science skills they way they do, at least, stop boosting fbp and kinetic dmg from science skills, and give them a boost
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Tacticals have ALWAYS boosted sci... its not some new change. lol
Tacticals should boost sci... there skills are DMG BOOSTS... its not shocking that they boost dmg. If you are saying tacticals should not boost sci... that's fine... then Sci fleet should not stack with EPTS anymore... SNB and Sensor scan should be disabled when your not flying a sci ship as well.
Gravity well is FINE.... I use it on my sci sci and love it... people that claim its weak are to stupid to spec it proper. 9 Points in gravity well and 1-2 consoles and it holds like a mother.
CPB... is NOT effected by tac skills as it is not direct dmg... anything you think is wrong with CPB has nothing to do with tactical. Again CPB is fine as well... 5k btw is more then half of an escorts shield, and a good half of most cruisers... combo it with tachyon for the other half... hardly as weak as people let on... NO you can't ista pop people like you used to be able to prior to resists. Its fine as it is.
Shockwave is a great skill... direct dmg was never its main use. Learn to use it. Don't try to shock people running omega. Its not that hard to look for a buff... also why are you trying to shock escorts anyway ? Shock the cruisers that are extending them.... THAT is what PSW is for.
I'm sorry learn to play your sci sci properly, and you would have less to complain about. Sorry for the snarky tone, really though these Tacs shouldn't boost sci arguments come up to often... of course tac skills work on direct dmg skills... that's sort of there point. The other classes skills don't shut off if they don't fly there Typical Captain ship.
I managed to kill my self against him several times in one or two volleys with FBP3 sending all that damage back to me.
just imagine if that FBP was alphad...then it would do even more damage...but really is it that bad..what damage sci power isnt counterable? i would rather be hit by GW by a tac in a sci ship than a sci in a sci ship, because the tac cant sub nuke my APO to keep me in the GW.
VM- ruination of escorts or anything that doesnt have ET
PSW- puts a stop to TBs, TBR, tach beam, ES, EWP, and any other skill that has a duration like that
GW- an aoe hold that can hold pretty well with proper specing, the doff seems to work great too.
TBR- the push is what maters with a sci. get someone away from a healer and have the escorts pounce on them
you also got SNB and scan, the 2 greatest kill setup skills in the game. your escort friends take it from here.
if tac skills stopped buffing skills that deal energy or kinetic damage, there would never be a reason for a tac to fly a sci, that synergy would not exist. wile it can be entertaining to have damage buffed GW, PSW, FBP, and TBR, your not going to destroy anyone like you will in an escort, and your a sci ship on the field without an SNB and scan and sci fleet and the aoe resist thing.
sci captains seem to take it real personal when tac captains can deal more damage with THEIR skills. forgetting that its in no way a sci captains job to contribute to team success by dealing damage. any that a sci captain deals is just gravy.
I once fought against a Temporal Science ship where the Captain kept chaining FBP. It didn't kill me quickly, but it was pretty damn annoying just the same.
First of all Npc's fly out of gravity well. I have 6 points. And I would find it ridiculous for someone to tell me I HAVE TO put 9 points into it to get it to hold. The fact is the repel sucks. Using it for npc spam? pfff. Is that what Gravity Well is for? Hmmm. And here I thought it was for controlling a group of ships. I think Cryptic needs to specify they want us to trap fighters with this skill in the description. I'm sure many other players are confused also.
Tykens Rift is a joke. I suppose someone will tell me that energy siphon is meant to boost your own power levels and not to drain the targets power levels either so its still good. I guess Cryptic should probably just remove the drain from enemies altogether for that skill since we're only using it for half TRIBBLE reasons in the first place. But who needs to bother trying to drain when I can run two copies of Viral Matrix and shut down systems with little to no effort. Now there is a skill that IS working well right now.
Shield Drains? Mai Kai has already commented on his extensive experience with the skill. Its a hail mary. But I'm glad Tacyhon Beam and Charged Particle Burst aren't calculated as damage dealing skills. Good god tacs would buff those too.
Scramble is in a sweet spot right now. Jam Sensors does it's job. Photonic Shockwave was never for damage? In any form its either been stronger for stuns, or stronger for damage. Except now the damage is negligible even with shields down and the max disable you'll get is 1-2 seconds. Pretty crappy for a commander level skill. Wish my shockwave was more like an attack pattern. Boy those attack patterns sure get a lot of mileage. Of course I'll give credit to the photonic shockwave doffs. The spread can be pretty effective for that one to two seconds in team settings. It was a really cool addition to the game. So in my opinion a little boost in damage numbers may be warranted here.
There are too many sci skills that are NOT used particularly in premade matches simply because they are USELESS in their current form and/or relative to current resists to said skills. And if someone is going to tell me that out of all the science skills available that science captains are only meant to use the ones that deal NO DAMAGE? I guess Tac Captains only use the attack patterns that BUFF DAMAGE AND MOVEMENT and not DEBUFF their targets right? And Tac Captains shouldn't use anything that isnt a cannon or turret and deals energy damage. NO. Because that would just be plain nonsense.
So lets not come here and berate the original poster who is obviously frustrated with the current state of science. As are many other science captains who play this game right now. Lets not pretend there is nothing wrong with the class. There is definitely room for improvement. Now there are definitely things that work best for Science Captains right now and DontdrunkImShoot made an excellent point about what weapons work the best for sci right at this point in time. And for good reason. But in my own way I agree with the OP. Tac Captains don't need to buff science or engineering skills. They should only buff energy damage and projectile damage. I personally have a problem with Tac Captains having a monopoly over every form of damage dealt in the game. In my opinion projectile and energy damage is enough of a monopoly. Sci and Engineering Captains will never compete on raw damage output alone and that's fair. But that is where Science Captains and Engineering Captains should be able to make up the differential deficit in "pressure damage" versus "spike damage". Through the exotic damage found in select Science and Engineering abilities which have always been counterable or avoidable to some degree as opposed to an alpha strike exceptionally well timed and expertly executed.
-Captain Tripwire-
Let no other Captain discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Debuffs and Disables be damned! Charge up your Backstep and Forge your build out of Lock Boxes, Consoles, and Flash Sales feeding off of only your pure will to chain, spam, and hax your way forward. You will not be forgotten to history.
If the sci pops a fully buffed sensor scan on you... I would bet the sci FBP would in fact kill you much quicker then the alphed up version.
engineers suck because they are redundant due to defensive power creep, or theres something else available to everyone that mimics their skills. but in a lot of matches, with out a sci around no one would ever die
energy siphon can be fairly potent actually, but TR has to be broken. it does basically nothing. having 99 PI cuts shield and energy drains in half, its rare you will find a challenging opponent without 99 PI, those sci skills definitely need work. but the rest of sci, especially properly doffed, is still devastating for controlling
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Plenty of things in this game suck unless you fully spec them... Are you telling me you have 6 points in to torps when you use them ? Or that you have 6 points into hull strength ?
Why is it so shocking to think that perhaps you have to fully spec a sci skill to in fact make it useful.
I'm sorry I play sci as well... my GW3 fully speced KILLS people. Do I wine when I watch an escort blow through it with Omega up.... no I understand they have a counter. In general I use it on there heal buddies and other sci. lol
NPCs fly out of... Are you going loopy trips ? Last I checked if I take my sci ship into an ESTF the spheres all go boom in about half the time as when I go in with my high dps escort. Nothing like one sphere popping the next...
I suggest you respec and use your buffs a little more wisely
I don't think anyone would argue Tykens didn't pretty much suck right now. Not in a good way either. However Cryptic did remove the system cool down that was shared with siphen previously. A combo of the two skills can be semi effective. (the real issue with both Tykens and Siphen is that they are cleared by hazards)
However the op is complaining about tacs... and as far as I know Tykens and Siphen suck equally as much for Tac Sci or engi.
As for VM... again all 3 captain types no difference.
Exactly what I was saying... they are good skills already... hail marry all you want... there is a reason Mai Kai still runs them. lol
And again to the ops assertion that tac makes sci better then sci sci... its silly.
CPB / Tachyon / Siphen / Tykens / VM / tractor / Scramble / Jam... none of them are effected by any captain skills. (Yes tykens and tractor do some dmg... but its not enough to matter)
Sci is a debuff class... no one claimed it was an easy thing to do properly.
Last I checked there was no attack pattern to disable an extend... or shut off a warp plasma... or stop a tachyon channel... there is one to break a tractor I guess, but then that same pattern also makes you die to TBR, and shockwave just shuts it off.
Shockwave does all of the things above... NO dmg has never been its primary objective... and in fact Cryptic admitted there code was bugged when PSW3 wasn't in line with the lower versions and corrected it... that had NOTHING at all to do with tacs.
I play a sci... In fact I play multiple sci... I am NOT frustrated by sci at all. I guess I'm in the minority.
However I would suggest it has more to do with the fact that some players are looking for an ego stroke.
I'm sorry Sci is NOT the career you choose if your looking for a big Ohhh Ahhh from the puggletts you get teamed with. You will most likely NOT be the top on the dmg board... You will most likely NOT be on the top of the healing board (unless you really gimp your build to do nothing but heal)... you MAY end up with top kills if you spread a lot of AOE... but if you choose a none AOE build... you may well have a mid range kill number as well.
However you WILL WIN matches all the darn time, because well played SCI is game changing.
I LOVE pugging with my sci... because frankly people ignore me most of the time. Its nice being in a pug against a premade... that would for sure have targeted my bug first every encounter, pretty much ignore me until its to late. They do end up focusing me at some point... in most cased after there down 10 or so and stop scratching there heads.
I honestly can't get over how diluted people are about sci.
Sci Sci is the most game changing combo in this game... to see good players still wining about there broken builds because there crutch commander skills take more thought these days is hillarious. With the current state of the game its the same for every class right now... YOU have to time your buffs/debuffs properly. You can't just run in and alpha rapid fire anymore... and you can't just CPB Nuke VM HY anymore either. Timing has always been important, now its everything.
Can sci captains get more support out of tac powers than tacs can? No.
Anyway, anyone who thinks sci powers aren't for doing damage never fought my Nebula 2 years back. Sci captains are only good for support now, because of nerfs; it was not always the case. Not hard to see why that might rankle.
STO's not a space sim.
The less one looks for logic in the game - the more one can enjoy pressing their spacebar and blowing things up.
This isn't the pseudo science of Star Trek.
It's the wham bam, I don't know what's going on - this is horribly silly - oh that's cool world of JJTrek.
I don't mean this as a brag in anyway... and I don't take screen shots of my games because I'm not a douche.
Really though... My Sci Sci Fleet Nova... Pulls 300-600k a game. I am almost always top on the score board in my sci sci, unless there is a proper escort around. Frankly even then I don't think I have ever been in a game where a Tac has pulled over 100k more then my sci. I am including games with good players like Thales in his bug. If he put down a 700... I'll have a 625, with double the healing of course.
Man frankly Sci Sci is just plain op still in these days... its just not like the "good old" days where all you needed was sci period.
It's true that they've done to science captains in science ships what all other mmo's have done to healers throughout history. Only when they finally start losing players because people are all tired of being forced to play as a tactical escort captain to have any speed by which to finish dailies for currencies will they begin to make changes just like what had to happen in World of ******** some time ago when they nerfed Priests so badly that no one would play healers and it all but stopped dungeons entirely because there weren't enough healers to fill the dungeons adequately.
The same thing needs to happen here.
Science skills aren't magic they are based on scientific theory, the buffs that tacts use however are magic buffs that spring out of nowhere and it's only amplified by their poor design of having attack patterns and evasive maneuver patterns in the same skill thus turning it into an iWin button.
They need to take a long look at this because it doesn't matter how many factions they spit out over the next few months, it's still going to be a huge issue of imbalance.
Its true it is a game first... and perhaps it seems non logical to some that kirk would boost his deflector dish output somehow. lol
Still if a Sci can figure out how to make the dish on that escort throw Nukes... and Sensor scan people to death (and not leave his upgrades in place for Kirk)... it seems logical that the Engi can rotate that sci ships shield freqs... and the tac can goose up that Tractor beam pulsor.
But it's not really a case of "somehow" - it's the same ol' same ol' blanket thing.
It's the same APA whether it's DHCs, Beams, Torps, Mines, EWP, GW, etc, etc, etc.
It's not a case that the game provides for a character build where you've created a character that took a dual specialization in Tac/Sci at the Academy and has learned a specific ability for such a character that allows them to combine their Tac and Sci training to boost Science abilities in a more offensive manner.
It's just a Tac going wheeeeee - APA - wheeeeee! It's like the game was made for Pakleds.
Nothing that I, as a Tactical Captain, comes even close to Sub Nuc. Damage boosts are nice but don't do much against self/ally buffed targets.
How is a Sci Scort throwing a -80 dmg reduction AOE like around not the same thing ?
Its the same captain level skill, somehow it works in any ship.
Same thing with Sub nuke... it works just was well in the defiant as it does in the intrepid for some reason.
I won't insult anyone with the engi stuff... but its true EPS transfer does the exact same thing in the enterprise or the saber.
JJTrek was released May 2009.
STO was not released until Feb 2010.
Abrams signed on to direct the new film in Feb 2007. Planning for the film had already started back in 2005. The original release date was to be Christmas 2008. It got pushed back to Summer 2009. The original filming had been completed around April 2008.
Cryptic took over from Perpetual and announced STO around July 2008. Again, the game was not released until Feb 2010.
How is what I said flawed again?
Yes, the APA should affect the Beams, Cannons, weapons on any ship - just like a Sci can drop Scattering or use SNB on any ship.
That's not the same as APA affecting a Sci BOFF ability.
The Sci/Eng abilities do the same thing on different ships.
Tac abilities should do the same thing on different ships...not additional things.
QFT.
Don't doubt the power of a Sci/Sci. Anyone that says otherwise is welcome to take a look at my Vesta o' Doom.
Its hard to say they do added things.
Last I checked... I could load a TBR 1 on an escort... or a GW 1 on the MVAM... or a FBP 1-2... or a DEM 1-2.
If I CHOOSE to trade omega 3 / Rapid Fire 3/2 for a copy of DEM 3... or TBR 2/3 instead... whats the difference.
I think almost everyone will agree the Escort Commander and Lt. Commander buffs are going to synergise with Alpha one heck of a lot better then those Sci skills.
My point is.... This entire thread... is Science Sour Grapes... as some players seem to think there sci toons have been nerfed somehow. They direct there vitriol at tacticals for some reason... I guess because they feel we can somehow make a sci ship work better then they can which is complete BS.
Last I checked Panadas and TSI where NOT running around with 5 man Tac Sci teams... in fact I think if you ask someone like Jorf He'll tell you Tactical in a Science ship is doing it wrong. lol
Tac Sci is a fun option... that ONLY works because you can trade your Fantastic Synergy with the tactical commander / captain skills... for an interesting one with the Science Commander/ Tac Captain skills.
Will it out dmg a Sci Sci... the ones with no imagination sure... I have fun flying tac sci now and then... HOWEVER the tac sci is only really good at picking apart pugs. (in which case I am sure my bug would be more humane) Against a proper team... My sci sci will out dmg my tac sci... and the only way to rack up kills at all anymore is to create windows of anti resistance.
I get it that tacticals are supposed to deal out the pew pew, but to me I always thought the buffs from those patterns should only buff up energy and projectile weapons damage, not include damage from exotic particle damage or whatnot.
DISENCHANTED
I wouldn't lump me in with that, personally. Heck, look at praxi's quote for my stance on Sci.
My "sour grapes" is more an overall - hrmm, frustration? - in regard to how "simplified" Cryptic has made certain things. You'll notice my beef wasn't actually that a Tac could buff Sci damage - rather my beef was the manner in which Cryptic did it. Falling into that category of "Magic"...heck, that's what I've been saying. Even in the additional thing - it's that APA is doing it - not that it's being done.
I could have sworn I posted something else in this thread, but I don't see it. I know I typed it. I must have closed it out by accident instead of posting it (have way too many forum tabs open at the moment).
In it I mentioned something I had mentioned in another thread (something I admitted was Fed biased there, simply because of the info being so readily available for Feds) about how STO handles "Careers" versus how Starfleet had Divisions and how most of the "Characters" in the Shows/Movies were actually "dual-spec" - ie with the three Divisions (Command, Operations (including Tac and Eng), & Science) - we'd often have "Characters" that were a mix of two Divisions.
So yeah, you'd have that Tac/Sci or Sci/Tac with Ability X (or a series of abilities) that would allow them to do more damage with Sci abilities. It's what they've trained to do. It wouldn't just be a blanket ability that any Tac could use.
It's about there being less "Magic" - less black box, don't think about it or don't worry about it...and more about, oh - I see how that works...that's damn cool.
It's among my turning into a crotchety old man series of posts of late...I guess. That desire for more complex things rather than simpler things.
Application of training? Bursts of insight based on situational awareness and observation? Better focus, clarity, timing?
With the training in the use of the weapons, short bursts of improved use of them is not much of a stretch. Using those same abilities to provide short bursts with non-weapons though? Additional abilities that reflect more offensive training in those non-weapons? That additional complexity and pseudo realism...