First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.
Here is the bottom line we are discussing internally:
? We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good
? Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
? We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
? We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
? Armor could be added as a set piece.
? Armor could offer a ship material change.
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
So what would the difference be between regular armor consoles and heavy armor? Because as is, regular armor consoles already give you more than enough survivability in PvE regardless of ship class.
In order to really put cruisers apart, you'd need to have some huge differences.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
While it is a more drastic change, I personally would rather see Option 2. Since there are canon reasons where class-specific non-cruisers had exotic armor available that should be usable only on that type. (Defiant had its special Ablative armor, Intrepid had the replicated armor)
I also like the notion of having another way to alter the appearance of a ship.
I would also like to see new Engineering consoles that have more to do with improving other systems than damage mitigation. I would gladly let my Neutronium armor turn into something else generally usable or turned into a generic prototype that can be cashed in for something else (marks, EC, etc).
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
Sure, if cruisers 1 armour is from the current selection of armour consoles. IF your taliking one of your proposed heavy armour consoles "the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more."Then NOT A CHANCE
I'm looking for a cruiser than can mount cannons just because you posted this, because I want an indestructible ship that can heal itself forever.
I would like to see armor (or a hull slot) vary hull strength at the expense benefit of turn rate. Nothing to drastic, I'm thinking only a variance of a couple thousand/1 or 2 turn rate. Existing ships could be automatically provided with a hull piece that matches their current stats.
Perhaps heavy armored hull might provide an additional boost to damage mitigation, or maybe special effects when certain hull skills are used.
What would be the 'con', in increasing overall ship survivability (option 2) ? As is, you have a balance of ships either blowing up incredibly fast, or taking a ton of damage and still surviving. In the Trek shows, ships were often quite durable regardless of class, both in terms of shields and hull. I really don't want STO to degenerate into a one-shot-kill game, where you have literally zero reaction time, before you get killed. Especially when you consider that all ships are always in a state of 'Yellow Alert', with shields raised and weapons ready to bear. Even a sneak attack, wouldn't cause the ship to blow up within a matter of 1-2 attacks.
I understand 'option 1' to be the easier, and quicker solution. But in my opinion, the option that gives more flexibility for all ship types, may be the better course of action.
An "Armor slot" should increase overall hull hitpoints, as well as provide resistances to various damage types (much like the current Personal Armors on the ground currently provides).
Redoing the existing Engineering "Resistance" consoles, may be better if they provided various resistances for your shields, rather than hull.
Option 1 is fantastic. Make armor the DHC of cruisers. (And give Sci vessels something nice too.) Here's why I support armor for cruisers: versatility!
If I can take my Neutroniums off that frees up some slots to mitigate the problems with cruisers and let me choose what shortcomings to overcome.
Damage too low? Now I can slot a point defense system, vent theta radiation, isometric, etc.
Turning too slow? RCS modules are viable if they're not eating into survivability. Also, Subspace jump.
Maybe I want more versatility as a support ship? Okay, Graviton pulse, Vent Theta Radiation, maybe some aux power boosting consoles.
This, to me, lets cruisers branch out and do things better (not all things at once, but they can improve in areas one at a time as the playstyle or mission demands) and it also solves a problem of consoles. Universal consoles rarely get slotted. You NEED your tac slots for damage, you NEED Engineering for defense, and at the very least cruisers NEED Sci for shields.
Heck, while you're at it, give every ship a single 'universal' console slot that only accepts special power-granting consoles. If you're looking for something to offer Sci vessels, give them an extra one or two slots for those to let them have the power versatility they should be enjoying.
I know the older consoles can just be handed over to the Ferengi Collectors to receive compensation... so, I don't think transition from one system to the other would be so bad.
I think the rationale of Armor vs Heavy Armor kind of works. It's kind of like how Escorts get to have dual cannons and other ships don't. In this case, cruisers would be the only ships to gain access to an armor slot. (Do KDF Battlecruisers get Heavy Armor? They have dual cannons - maybe not! xD )
You could go for cruiser only, but if new armor itemization brings in new materials, then it means non-armor ships don't get to have these new skins - which is probably an undesirable result. I'm not worried about the notion of "cruiser-only" sets since we already have semi-exclusivity with other sets (Jem'hadar and Ferengi sets work better with certain ships) and that nothing will stop other ships to have part of the set bonus anyhow with a 'two-piece' set.
(one option I'd dearly wish to see made available in consoles is a way to increase a ship's inertia value. I drive an Odyssey, and while I can live with the turn rate, I find the skidding that goes with the ponderous ship to be groan worthy. I'm okay with keeping the stats as is, but I'd appreciate a way to mitigate what I don't like through console investment)
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
How's that work with the KDF? Battle cruisers get armor too? Also, what about those hybrid ships, the destroyers or whatever they are?
I am interested in the idea of a set only usable by cruisers. That could help differentiate things. But I would hope that access to such a set would be given across the board. I mean, I'm not sure it's a great idea if the only people who can get access to it are those who are like T5 Romulan Rep or whatever. So have some different options? Like an accessible "set" from doing something everyone can do. And then a super duper desirable set?
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
Yeah, it is dangerous to go down that road. But changing armor consoles isn't exactly a terrible idea.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
Losing consoles doesn't scare me. But what can they be replaced with? That's the thing.
Also there's a general issue here about damage soak or tanking. Cruisers are really good at it already. What does this change do really? It seems like a lateral move mostly. And much of the content that people participate in is still slanted toward damage dealing. How's this really going to impact things?
So what would the difference be between regular armor consoles and heavy armor? Because as is, regular armor consoles already give you more than enough survivability in PvE regardless of ship class.
In order to really put cruisers apart, you'd need to have some huge differences.
Yeah, see, that's a compelling point. Also, if there was a huge difference, what's that end up doing overall? My cruiser is a beefy tank as is. Making it a better tank helps in what way? Not saying don't do this. Just wondering where this takes things?
First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.
Here is the bottom line we are discussing internally:
? We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good
? Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
? We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
? We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
? Armor could be added as a set piece.
? Armor could offer a ship material change.
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
I really do like the sound of 'Option 2', but whether it's a good idea really depends on what would replace armour in the eng console line up.
I'm not trying to be awkward here, but it's difficult to give a straight 'yes' or 'no' response when there's only one half of a plan.
The more I think about it, the more I could be in favor of Option 1 so long as your other mentioned idea of an exclusive Secondary Deflector slot for Science ships would be added at the same time. This would fully complete the Rock, Paper Scissors triad of the ships.
Rock = Cruisers
Paper = Escort
Scissors = Science
I love the idea of a new Armor slot on ALL ships... not just Engineers. But a simple fix to the cruisers' survivability might be to just go and raise the HPs of all the cruisers. That way they'd have a base increase and then would have the added versatility of the different Armors that might be coming out.
More itemization in general would be EXCELLENT. Multiple additions for the ships (Warp Cores/Energy Distib types/Subsystems/etc) as well as for the player characters (Armorings/Modications to Weapons/Kits/Devices) and their NPC staffs would be fantastic. Would be a great addition in the much needed crafting revamp as well.
The more I think about it, the more I could be in favor of Option 1 so long as your other mentioned idea of an exclusive Secondary Deflector slot for Science ships would be added at the same time. This would fully complete the Rock, Paper Scissors triad of the ships.
Rock = Cruisers
Paper = Escort
Scissors = Science
Rofl, can you imagine the NOISE from escort pilots as they go squish endlessly? I would entertain option 1 just to see the forum rage XD.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
I like option 2.
I'd actually love for escorts in particular to get an armour console slot in which only armour can be slotted (no universals), and have their shield modifiers reduced. Escorts never had the best shields, but their armour, such as the Defiant's ablative armour, could take a good few square hits to make up for it. This would make them more glass cannon-y and a bit closer to canon in that regard.
As for what to do with the existing armor consoles-
It has been mentioned that gear will gain the ability to slot "gems" what I interpret to be modifications. Since people spent their resources to get a boost to their armor why not turn each one into a gem that gains a similar type of boost in type and quality to the armor they are using.
Another fair option would be to allow people to turn their existing armor consoles into new armor slot items of corresponding type and value perhaps make it require more than one to complete the armor or one plus other resources to so.
As for the Heavy Armor items for cruisers-
If ONLY cruisers can have a heavy armor slot then in all fairness to the justification of doing that ONLY escorts should have DHCs. There are currently some cruisers and sci ships that can have them so if a captain of those ships wants DHCs the have options to do so.
The only viable solution I see in adding heavy armor to the game would be for it to come with a turn rate debuff to sci ships and escorts. This would be fair because DHCs on sci ships and especially cruisers aren't as effective as they are on escorts and would mean the same for heavy armor on something besides a cruiser but would still give captains of other ships the option to do so if they felt it would help them.
Separate Armour slots? I must admit, the idea is growing on me. And the Ablative Generator could be converted into an armour type rather than a console! That would make it much more useful!
Yeah, see, that's a compelling point. Also, if there was a huge difference, what's that end up doing overall? My cruiser is a beefy tank as is. Making it a better tank helps in what way? Not saying don't do this. Just wondering where this takes things?
You don't want your ticklebeam equipped healboat to have more damage resistance ?
You can use all those unused ENG slots for more field generators and SIF consoles.
Whoa, *cruisers* need increased *survivability*? Where is *that* data coming from? I've only been on since F2P (but a gold member anyways, support what you like and all that), and I've seen zero forum threads about how easy cruisers are to pop.
The constant complaint has been cruisers don't do enough effective DPS with Beams (I don't have much trouble topping the typical PUG STF with a c-store excelsior built for DPS, but I do die). I can think of several different ways to adjust for that without the havoc adding a new slot would cause:
1) Make EPS transfer boost the maximum power level beyond 125, and increase the top end of the DPS multiplier for power levels. Suddenly eng/cruiser captains can do higher amounts of pressure damage. EPtW, weapon battery, EPS transfer = pressure damage! (boosts eng damage overall)
or
2) Shoot half as many beams per volley, but double the damage per shot (weapons power drain is the same). Now there is less power drain over the a full broadside, similar to DHCs vs DCs. Create a new weapon type, Heavy Beam Arrays, that do this and only allow for cruisers to use it. (boosts cruiser damage overall)
Boom, problem solved.
For science/science, what needs to be done is that Sensor Analysis and Sensor Scan need buffed. SA needs a full 60 seconds to become effective, and is only effective for you. That's way too long for today's content - between high DPS in PvE and adapted MACO/KHG sets in PvP that change your targeting. Decrease the build up time in half and make it effective across your team and science ships become compelling to use again. Sensor Scan needs to be normalized with APA - with all buffs/debuffs lasting 20 seconds, 1/3 of cooldown just like APA (stowiki is inconsistent on the duration, so maybe it already is).
The larger problem now is that there are so many shield/hull resistances and buffs that escorts can tank well enough on their own. I know my Fleet Defiant can tank a elite cube easily, and a tac cube with some effort.
First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.
Here is the bottom line we are discussing internally:
? We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good
? Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
? We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
? We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
? Armor could be added as a set piece.
? Armor could offer a ship material change.
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
Thoughts:
If only Cruisers got Armor then what would be special about Science/Escorts? Science get a second Deflector slot that offers half that deflectors buffage on top of the "Primary" Deflector? Escorts get a Maneuvering Thruster slot for added agility?
I think everyone could get Armor but there could be Sets that use Armor differently. I know shields have the Shield modifier built into the ship, why not do an Armor modifier? Cruisers get a higher modifier than Science who get a higher modifier than escort (or vice versa)? Or have certain armors that can only be equipped on Cruisers, etc.
Maybe Science armor gives a minor damage resistance to weapons (or none at all) and gives a resistance to damage/effects of GW, TR, etc.
The other question that arises is what do you do with the Engineering console slots? Driver Coil Console? You'd be removing several consoles from the potential options.
First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.
Here is the bottom line we are discussing internally:
1 We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good
2 Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
3 We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
4 We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
5 Armor could be added as a set piece.
6 Armor could offer a ship material change.
1: Yes. Itemization is good.
2 & 6: Sounds like fun.
3: Thank you. The game is skewed toward Escorts far too much as is, buffing everyone would do nothing.
4: 100% this. My Engineering Odyssey can tank all 14 of the various NPC battleships at the same time on Elite (Battleship Royal Rumble), but cannot survive a single Tactical-flown Escort.
5: This might be interesting, to add more set passives. Good time to buff the oldest three sets (Aegis, Retro Borg, and Breen) back into relevancy.
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
A Only Cruisers Get Armor.
B No other changes needed (simple).
C We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
I like this, especially if these replaced Engineering consoles. It would allow Cruisers to use other Engineering consoles and maintain its survivability.
Option 2:
A Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
B This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
C Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
Option 2 might be the better choice, if implemented properly. It'd be rougher, but it would make everyone happy. Probably. I'd REALLY like to have a bonus HP component for armor.
If implemented right, I'd be MORE than willing to give up armor consoles for armor slots. That's my two cents on the matter.
-As someone here said before there are ships that have special kinds of armor so it would be nice and canon to get these.
-Also I dont like the idea that only cruisers get access to a 4th set item. That would not be fair although Cruisers really need some bonuses so maybe this would be somewhat acceptable but still i dont like the idea of only cruisers getting that.
I like the idea of an armor slot because it would give us more items and probably free some slots on the engineering slots to make use of special ship consoles like with the oddy or other universal consoles like point defence where right now, there is no place for those.
And to the question what could be done with the existing armor consoles :
I would make them consoles to resist special weapon procs. I know against drain there are power insulators and they may help against phaser procs dont know. But is there a console that helps against say plasma dots? Not sure, dont think there is. So basically you could just take a tetraburnium alloy or something, look at what dmg types it helps against and then make it a console that helps against the procs of exactly those weapons.
Or just make us exchange the existing ones for marks, EC, dili or whatever. But escpacially armor procs or stuff that protects my subsystems more would help.
Like:
This console X does the following:
-reduces Plasma dot dmg by 50%
-completely blocks all plasma dots created by attacks that did less then xx dmg (say 5k) or something like that
That would make them interessing enough to be kept without breaking something because in the end all those procs are just bonuses that well, they help but the base weapon dmg would not be affected. Okay I know, disruptors are nice because of there debuff to dmg resistance but having those special consoles would make other less used weapon types more interesting.
Basically they would still be engineering consoles doing some resisting to weapon dmg, but not the dmg itself but the procs associated with that weapon type.
and, on a side note, its really nice to have a dev finally taking interest in what we post here all day long Thx for that.
First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.
Here is the bottom line we are discussing internally:
? We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good
? Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
? We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
? We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
? Armor could be added as a set piece.
? Armor could offer a ship material change.
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
I would personally like option two. It does not make sense what so ever to give armor slots to only one ship class. I mean, no matter what ship you fly it has armor, maybe not a whole lot of armor but its there. especially for starships, they HAVE to have armor otherwise severe damage occurs obviously.
I like option two because it gives the oppurtunity to make the cruiser role more distinctive. Consoles for better tanking, more threat, increased self healing capabilities, who knows maybe we stole some hull regeneration technology from the borg? also, really like the idea for armor consoles changing the look of the hull, have wanted this all along, well basically for everything because it would make ships even more unique.
The idea below I have realized is terrible when applied to STFs, please ignore it thanks I also had another CRAZY idea, I mean this is nuts but I love it.
everyone can equip all armor types even heavy armor, BUT!!!!!!!!
the heavier the armor you equip on an increasily small ship, the less turn rate and movement it has.!!!!!!!!! so a cruiser has big engines to move around so it can equip heavy armor and not skip a beat turn rate wise. but lets say you take that same armor and put it on your escort, BAM you just became a flying brick with a target on you. even if you go the beam route with heavy armor, what does it matter? you just compromised the entire purpose of your ship while painting an extremely large target on yourself for everyone else.
heres my example:
cruiser equips heavy armor console with lets say just for fun +100 all resistance
the cruiser is unaffected by this and continues on its way with the same turn rate and movement capabilities
I take out my defiant and equip this +100 all resistance armor, thats going to be REALLY heavy for a defiant to push around. If i remember correctly a defiants turn rate is about 17? lets say for every +1 hull resistance the turn rate decreases by 0.1, so the defiant just lost 10 turn rate. down to 7 turn rate now. cannons are now out of the question. not only did cannons just become useless but the ship already has low survivability due to its boff layout.
So when it comes down to it, the player could decide what they want to sacrifice with armor set up this way.
also all the numbers I used I just picked at random please do not take them TOO seriously.
last thing, WHY NO WARP CORES?, common cryptic I want to eject my warp core on the next sci ship that flys underneath me and hits tractor
Really, wouldn't a castrated Defiant, Promethius, Armitage, or Steamrunner be fun to take into an STF with 3 of your buddies P2W healboats with heavy armour ?
First, let?s take Warp Cores out of the discussion. If STO gets a Warp Core, it will have little to do with armor.
Here is the bottom line we are discussing internally:
? We want to add a ship armor slot. Having more itemization is good
? Armor means Damage Resistance (to be consistent with ground Armor). Other enhancement bonuses can be available
? We don?t want to raise the survivability of every ship in the game.
? We feel Cruisers could use an increase in survivability.
? Armor could be added as a set piece.
? Armor could offer a ship material change.
So two options we are discussing:
Option 1:
? Only Cruisers Get Armor.
? No other changes needed (simple).
? We couldn't integrate armor as set piece for everyone, but it could possibly become part of a set only usable by cruisers.
Option 2:
? Everyone gets an Armor slot, but Cruisers can equip Heavy Armor.
? This is dangerous b/c it potentially raises the survivability of every ship in the game. To do this, Armor consoles would have to be changed. They would have to be something that is not related to damage mitigation (so not damage resistance, or bonus HP, or defense). The consoles would have to change to something new, or existing.
? Basic Armor could have lots of options and types, but in general, the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more.
So bottom line, would you be willing to loose Engineering Damage Resistance consoles for an armor slot that gives you about the same resistance, but also offers you more options.
While I find the idea that armor should only be available on cruisers interesting, I'd have to ask if this would not make all non-cruisers too vulnerable.
As it stands I would not dream to take any ship into combat without some form of armor because my ship could not withstand concentrated fire by several Borg ships, even with healing.
So what would the result be then?
Would cruisers become as tanky as they are now (or even better) while science and ecort ships end up rather vulnerable?
I'd like to offer a 3rd option if I may: give each ship an armor slot, but also give each ship an armor modifier like they have shield modifiers.
These could easily range from 1.0 for cruisers to 0.3 for escorts for example.
In fact they could be depending on the ships's turn modifier, meaning rather bulky ships like the Galaxy gain more armor while nimble ships like the Saber profit a lot less.
Option 2 sounds fun. I always thought the armour should be divided by weight. For example the defiant's hull might not have been able to handle the same density as a gaxaxy class hull as the class would need to rely more on speed and a heavier hull would increase the mass of the ship and slow it down. While a galaxy class would need to rely on a dense hull to offset its lack of speed.
so maybe:
Escorts - Basic Materials
Science - Intermediate
Cruisers - Advanced Materials
Id say scrap the consoles and replace them with something that enables the increase / decrease of the range beam weapons and Sensors (Maybe a console for Probes)
Really, wouldn't a castrated Defiant, Promethius, Armitage, or Steamrunner be fun to take into an STF with 3 of your buddies P2W healboats with heavy armour ?
honestly I was thinking about this and it is true that one could easily make a P2W boat with heavy armor for an STF. If anyone has suggestions that would be awesome. but I am beginning to think in the end it would not work due to tankier PVE escorts and sci ships.
but again I think option two would be the best, everyone gets more customization while giving cruisers the unique item they deserve.
I like option one, and might give me a reason to allocate more points to offense then I normally would without having to sacrifice to much in defense if armor can pick up the slack a little.
I see no reason Escorts should get the Armor they are meant for Damage, and one can already tank if they know what they are doing.
Sci ship already can get great shields so they don't really need Armor, but there should be something to increase their powers.
I'd like to offer a 3rd option if I may: give each ship an armor slot, but also give each ship an armor modifier like they have shield modifiers.
These could easily range from 1.0 for cruisers to 0.3 for escorts for example.
In fact they could be depending on the ships's turn modifier, meaning rather bulky ships like the Galaxy gain more armor while nimble ships like the Saber profit a lot less.
I think, in the long run, Option 2 is a better choice. Not-Armor Engineering consoles need looking at anyway.
As for adding armor as a set piece, I think doing so would be best if the set piece came in both normal and heavy armor versions, so cruisers wouldn't have to sacrifice durability for the set or conversely escorts and science vessels wouldn't infringe upon the cruiser's level of survivability.
Comments
So what would the difference be between regular armor consoles and heavy armor? Because as is, regular armor consoles already give you more than enough survivability in PvE regardless of ship class.
In order to really put cruisers apart, you'd need to have some huge differences.
While it is a more drastic change, I personally would rather see Option 2. Since there are canon reasons where class-specific non-cruisers had exotic armor available that should be usable only on that type. (Defiant had its special Ablative armor, Intrepid had the replicated armor)
I also like the notion of having another way to alter the appearance of a ship.
I would also like to see new Engineering consoles that have more to do with improving other systems than damage mitigation. I would gladly let my Neutronium armor turn into something else generally usable or turned into a generic prototype that can be cashed in for something else (marks, EC, etc).
Sure, if cruisers 1 armour is from the current selection of armour consoles. IF your taliking one of your proposed heavy armour consoles "the damage resistance bonus would be equivalent to about 2 to 3 engineering consoles (for white quality - higher qualities could be better). Heavy armor would be worth much more."Then NOT A CHANCE
I'm looking for a cruiser than can mount cannons just because you posted this, because I want an indestructible ship that can heal itself forever.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Perhaps heavy armored hull might provide an additional boost to damage mitigation, or maybe special effects when certain hull skills are used.
What would be the 'con', in increasing overall ship survivability (option 2) ? As is, you have a balance of ships either blowing up incredibly fast, or taking a ton of damage and still surviving. In the Trek shows, ships were often quite durable regardless of class, both in terms of shields and hull. I really don't want STO to degenerate into a one-shot-kill game, where you have literally zero reaction time, before you get killed. Especially when you consider that all ships are always in a state of 'Yellow Alert', with shields raised and weapons ready to bear. Even a sneak attack, wouldn't cause the ship to blow up within a matter of 1-2 attacks.
I understand 'option 1' to be the easier, and quicker solution. But in my opinion, the option that gives more flexibility for all ship types, may be the better course of action.
An "Armor slot" should increase overall hull hitpoints, as well as provide resistances to various damage types (much like the current Personal Armors on the ground currently provides).
Redoing the existing Engineering "Resistance" consoles, may be better if they provided various resistances for your shields, rather than hull.
If I can take my Neutroniums off that frees up some slots to mitigate the problems with cruisers and let me choose what shortcomings to overcome.
Damage too low? Now I can slot a point defense system, vent theta radiation, isometric, etc.
Turning too slow? RCS modules are viable if they're not eating into survivability. Also, Subspace jump.
Maybe I want more versatility as a support ship? Okay, Graviton pulse, Vent Theta Radiation, maybe some aux power boosting consoles.
This, to me, lets cruisers branch out and do things better (not all things at once, but they can improve in areas one at a time as the playstyle or mission demands) and it also solves a problem of consoles. Universal consoles rarely get slotted. You NEED your tac slots for damage, you NEED Engineering for defense, and at the very least cruisers NEED Sci for shields.
Heck, while you're at it, give every ship a single 'universal' console slot that only accepts special power-granting consoles. If you're looking for something to offer Sci vessels, give them an extra one or two slots for those to let them have the power versatility they should be enjoying.
I think the rationale of Armor vs Heavy Armor kind of works. It's kind of like how Escorts get to have dual cannons and other ships don't. In this case, cruisers would be the only ships to gain access to an armor slot. (Do KDF Battlecruisers get Heavy Armor? They have dual cannons - maybe not! xD )
You could go for cruiser only, but if new armor itemization brings in new materials, then it means non-armor ships don't get to have these new skins - which is probably an undesirable result. I'm not worried about the notion of "cruiser-only" sets since we already have semi-exclusivity with other sets (Jem'hadar and Ferengi sets work better with certain ships) and that nothing will stop other ships to have part of the set bonus anyhow with a 'two-piece' set.
(one option I'd dearly wish to see made available in consoles is a way to increase a ship's inertia value. I drive an Odyssey, and while I can live with the turn rate, I find the skidding that goes with the ponderous ship to be groan worthy. I'm okay with keeping the stats as is, but I'd appreciate a way to mitigate what I don't like through console investment)
How's that work with the KDF? Battle cruisers get armor too? Also, what about those hybrid ships, the destroyers or whatever they are?
I am interested in the idea of a set only usable by cruisers. That could help differentiate things. But I would hope that access to such a set would be given across the board. I mean, I'm not sure it's a great idea if the only people who can get access to it are those who are like T5 Romulan Rep or whatever. So have some different options? Like an accessible "set" from doing something everyone can do. And then a super duper desirable set?
Yeah, it is dangerous to go down that road. But changing armor consoles isn't exactly a terrible idea.
Losing consoles doesn't scare me. But what can they be replaced with? That's the thing.
Also there's a general issue here about damage soak or tanking. Cruisers are really good at it already. What does this change do really? It seems like a lateral move mostly. And much of the content that people participate in is still slanted toward damage dealing. How's this really going to impact things?
Yeah, see, that's a compelling point. Also, if there was a huge difference, what's that end up doing overall? My cruiser is a beefy tank as is. Making it a better tank helps in what way? Not saying don't do this. Just wondering where this takes things?
I really do like the sound of 'Option 2', but whether it's a good idea really depends on what would replace armour in the eng console line up.
I'm not trying to be awkward here, but it's difficult to give a straight 'yes' or 'no' response when there's only one half of a plan.
Rock = Cruisers
Paper = Escort
Scissors = Science
More itemization in general would be EXCELLENT. Multiple additions for the ships (Warp Cores/Energy Distib types/Subsystems/etc) as well as for the player characters (Armorings/Modications to Weapons/Kits/Devices) and their NPC staffs would be fantastic. Would be a great addition in the much needed crafting revamp as well.
Rofl, can you imagine the NOISE from escort pilots as they go squish endlessly? I would entertain option 1 just to see the forum rage XD.
I like option 2.
I'd actually love for escorts in particular to get an armour console slot in which only armour can be slotted (no universals), and have their shield modifiers reduced. Escorts never had the best shields, but their armour, such as the Defiant's ablative armour, could take a good few square hits to make up for it. This would make them more glass cannon-y and a bit closer to canon in that regard.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It has been mentioned that gear will gain the ability to slot "gems" what I interpret to be modifications. Since people spent their resources to get a boost to their armor why not turn each one into a gem that gains a similar type of boost in type and quality to the armor they are using.
Another fair option would be to allow people to turn their existing armor consoles into new armor slot items of corresponding type and value perhaps make it require more than one to complete the armor or one plus other resources to so.
As for the Heavy Armor items for cruisers-
If ONLY cruisers can have a heavy armor slot then in all fairness to the justification of doing that ONLY escorts should have DHCs. There are currently some cruisers and sci ships that can have them so if a captain of those ships wants DHCs the have options to do so.
The only viable solution I see in adding heavy armor to the game would be for it to come with a turn rate debuff to sci ships and escorts. This would be fair because DHCs on sci ships and especially cruisers aren't as effective as they are on escorts and would mean the same for heavy armor on something besides a cruiser but would still give captains of other ships the option to do so if they felt it would help them.
You don't want your ticklebeam equipped healboat to have more damage resistance ?
You can use all those unused ENG slots for more field generators and SIF consoles.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
The constant complaint has been cruisers don't do enough effective DPS with Beams (I don't have much trouble topping the typical PUG STF with a c-store excelsior built for DPS, but I do die). I can think of several different ways to adjust for that without the havoc adding a new slot would cause:
1) Make EPS transfer boost the maximum power level beyond 125, and increase the top end of the DPS multiplier for power levels. Suddenly eng/cruiser captains can do higher amounts of pressure damage. EPtW, weapon battery, EPS transfer = pressure damage! (boosts eng damage overall)
or
2) Shoot half as many beams per volley, but double the damage per shot (weapons power drain is the same). Now there is less power drain over the a full broadside, similar to DHCs vs DCs. Create a new weapon type, Heavy Beam Arrays, that do this and only allow for cruisers to use it. (boosts cruiser damage overall)
Boom, problem solved.
For science/science, what needs to be done is that Sensor Analysis and Sensor Scan need buffed. SA needs a full 60 seconds to become effective, and is only effective for you. That's way too long for today's content - between high DPS in PvE and adapted MACO/KHG sets in PvP that change your targeting. Decrease the build up time in half and make it effective across your team and science ships become compelling to use again. Sensor Scan needs to be normalized with APA - with all buffs/debuffs lasting 20 seconds, 1/3 of cooldown just like APA (stowiki is inconsistent on the duration, so maybe it already is).
The larger problem now is that there are so many shield/hull resistances and buffs that escorts can tank well enough on their own. I know my Fleet Defiant can tank a elite cube easily, and a tac cube with some effort.
Thoughts:
If only Cruisers got Armor then what would be special about Science/Escorts? Science get a second Deflector slot that offers half that deflectors buffage on top of the "Primary" Deflector? Escorts get a Maneuvering Thruster slot for added agility?
I think everyone could get Armor but there could be Sets that use Armor differently. I know shields have the Shield modifier built into the ship, why not do an Armor modifier? Cruisers get a higher modifier than Science who get a higher modifier than escort (or vice versa)? Or have certain armors that can only be equipped on Cruisers, etc.
Maybe Science armor gives a minor damage resistance to weapons (or none at all) and gives a resistance to damage/effects of GW, TR, etc.
The other question that arises is what do you do with the Engineering console slots? Driver Coil Console? You'd be removing several consoles from the potential options.
2 & 6: Sounds like fun.
3: Thank you. The game is skewed toward Escorts far too much as is, buffing everyone would do nothing.
4: 100% this. My Engineering Odyssey can tank all 14 of the various NPC battleships at the same time on Elite (Battleship Royal Rumble), but cannot survive a single Tactical-flown Escort.
5: This might be interesting, to add more set passives. Good time to buff the oldest three sets (Aegis, Retro Borg, and Breen) back into relevancy.
I like this, especially if these replaced Engineering consoles. It would allow Cruisers to use other Engineering consoles and maintain its survivability.
Option 2 might be the better choice, if implemented properly. It'd be rougher, but it would make everyone happy. Probably. I'd REALLY like to have a bonus HP component for armor.
If implemented right, I'd be MORE than willing to give up armor consoles for armor slots. That's my two cents on the matter.
tl;dr, +1 to Geko.
Here is why:
-As someone here said before there are ships that have special kinds of armor so it would be nice and canon to get these.
-Also I dont like the idea that only cruisers get access to a 4th set item. That would not be fair although Cruisers really need some bonuses so maybe this would be somewhat acceptable but still i dont like the idea of only cruisers getting that.
I like the idea of an armor slot because it would give us more items and probably free some slots on the engineering slots to make use of special ship consoles like with the oddy or other universal consoles like point defence where right now, there is no place for those.
And to the question what could be done with the existing armor consoles :
I would make them consoles to resist special weapon procs. I know against drain there are power insulators and they may help against phaser procs dont know. But is there a console that helps against say plasma dots? Not sure, dont think there is. So basically you could just take a tetraburnium alloy or something, look at what dmg types it helps against and then make it a console that helps against the procs of exactly those weapons.
Or just make us exchange the existing ones for marks, EC, dili or whatever. But escpacially armor procs or stuff that protects my subsystems more would help.
Like:
This console X does the following:
-reduces Plasma dot dmg by 50%
-completely blocks all plasma dots created by attacks that did less then xx dmg (say 5k) or something like that
That would make them interessing enough to be kept without breaking something because in the end all those procs are just bonuses that well, they help but the base weapon dmg would not be affected. Okay I know, disruptors are nice because of there debuff to dmg resistance but having those special consoles would make other less used weapon types more interesting.
Basically they would still be engineering consoles doing some resisting to weapon dmg, but not the dmg itself but the procs associated with that weapon type.
and, on a side note, its really nice to have a dev finally taking interest in what we post here all day long
I would personally like option two. It does not make sense what so ever to give armor slots to only one ship class. I mean, no matter what ship you fly it has armor, maybe not a whole lot of armor but its there. especially for starships, they HAVE to have armor otherwise severe damage occurs obviously.
I like option two because it gives the oppurtunity to make the cruiser role more distinctive. Consoles for better tanking, more threat, increased self healing capabilities, who knows maybe we stole some hull regeneration technology from the borg? also, really like the idea for armor consoles changing the look of the hull, have wanted this all along, well basically for everything because it would make ships even more unique.
The idea below I have realized is terrible when applied to STFs, please ignore it thanks
I also had another CRAZY idea, I mean this is nuts but I love it.
everyone can equip all armor types even heavy armor, BUT!!!!!!!!
the heavier the armor you equip on an increasily small ship, the less turn rate and movement it has.!!!!!!!!! so a cruiser has big engines to move around so it can equip heavy armor and not skip a beat turn rate wise. but lets say you take that same armor and put it on your escort, BAM you just became a flying brick with a target on you. even if you go the beam route with heavy armor, what does it matter? you just compromised the entire purpose of your ship while painting an extremely large target on yourself for everyone else.
heres my example:
cruiser equips heavy armor console with lets say just for fun +100 all resistance
the cruiser is unaffected by this and continues on its way with the same turn rate and movement capabilities
I take out my defiant and equip this +100 all resistance armor, thats going to be REALLY heavy for a defiant to push around. If i remember correctly a defiants turn rate is about 17? lets say for every +1 hull resistance the turn rate decreases by 0.1, so the defiant just lost 10 turn rate. down to 7 turn rate now. cannons are now out of the question. not only did cannons just become useless but the ship already has low survivability due to its boff layout.
So when it comes down to it, the player could decide what they want to sacrifice with armor set up this way.
also all the numbers I used I just picked at random please do not take them TOO seriously.
last thing, WHY NO WARP CORES?, common cryptic I want to eject my warp core on the next sci ship that flys underneath me and hits tractor
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
While I find the idea that armor should only be available on cruisers interesting, I'd have to ask if this would not make all non-cruisers too vulnerable.
As it stands I would not dream to take any ship into combat without some form of armor because my ship could not withstand concentrated fire by several Borg ships, even with healing.
So what would the result be then?
Would cruisers become as tanky as they are now (or even better) while science and ecort ships end up rather vulnerable?
I'd like to offer a 3rd option if I may: give each ship an armor slot, but also give each ship an armor modifier like they have shield modifiers.
These could easily range from 1.0 for cruisers to 0.3 for escorts for example.
In fact they could be depending on the ships's turn modifier, meaning rather bulky ships like the Galaxy gain more armor while nimble ships like the Saber profit a lot less.
so maybe:
Escorts - Basic Materials
Science - Intermediate
Cruisers - Advanced Materials
Id say scrap the consoles and replace them with something that enables the increase / decrease of the range beam weapons and Sensors (Maybe a console for Probes)
honestly I was thinking about this and it is true that one could easily make a P2W boat with heavy armor for an STF. If anyone has suggestions that would be awesome. but I am beginning to think in the end it would not work due to tankier PVE escorts and sci ships.
but again I think option two would be the best, everyone gets more customization while giving cruisers the unique item they deserve.
I see no reason Escorts should get the Armor they are meant for Damage, and one can already tank if they know what they are doing.
Sci ship already can get great shields so they don't really need Armor, but there should be something to increase their powers.
really like this idea.
As for adding armor as a set piece, I think doing so would be best if the set piece came in both normal and heavy armor versions, so cruisers wouldn't have to sacrifice durability for the set or conversely escorts and science vessels wouldn't infringe upon the cruiser's level of survivability.
Converting all Hull-Armor consoles into "real/physical" Hull-Armor components that can be stacked 1:1 like items or level-up with the player.