I've been slowly converted to the side that beams are pretty good. I still at this point say single cannons and turrets are "better" but not by the gap that I originally measured. Now I'm beginning to see them as a perfectly viable option, and excellent in the proper situations.
Who knows, future testing may even lead me to fly a beam boat, something I always wanted to do but always found lacking. What I find they lack for single target they just might edge out in the long run multi target.
Edit: Oh my, I just watched the one in your sig! now there is more! Thanks much!
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I've been slowly converted to the side that beams are pretty good. I still at this point say single cannons and turrets are "better" but not by the gap that I originally measured. Now I'm beginning to see them as a perfectly viable option, and excellent in the proper situations.
Who knows, future testing may even lead me to fly a beam boat, something I always wanted to do but always found lacking. What I find they lack for single target they just might edge out in the long run multi target.
Edit: Oh my, I just watched the one in your sig! now there is more! Thanks much!
That was kind of the point of doing this test and posting the video. Beams can do great damage. Even poorly geared ships should have no issue in pve if your build is good and you know the fights. Putting higher quality gear on that ship doubles its damage but by no means do you need to have the best gear to get through the content sto has to offer.
PvP is the exception however. If you want to go up against TSI and Turkish rp or Sad Pandas you better know your @#$@, have a great team with you, and have the best gear you can bring lol.
how did these 2 players get their ability icons to match their respective career colors instead of being a uniform color?
I have an old add-on from a long time that you put in your live folder that substitutes icon in game for the icons you see, I've posted it to our fleet. If you look you'll see the icons are the old ones from a long time ago. It's also why some are the default blue, having not existed when the add-on was made.
It's gonna break pretty bad when the new UI hits.
Formerly Known as Protector from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
I have an old add-on from a long time that you put in your live folder that substitutes icon in game for the icons you see, I've posted it to our fleet. If you look you'll see the icons are the old ones from a long time ago. It's also why some are the default blue, having not existed when the add-on was made.
It's gonna break pretty bad when the new UI hits.
ahh, that explains it; i thought i was missing out on some UI setting or something
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Gotta love that 4.2k DPS eng/cruiser... and the way it got its backside kicked my the Sci in the SLOWER ship...
So what do we take home from this?
That even with WHITE (common) MK X gear my Engineer can still pull 4.2k DPS...
And were in you in STF? If so, I didn't see you there.
And remember Scis can always do more damage than Engineers in space: Tacs Buff damage, Scis Debuff defenses (which buffs damage), engineers Heal/Survive Damage. They will always do less damage with comparable gear.
Formerly Known as Protector from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
There are easy fixes right in canon. The Enterprise refit of the Connie draws Phaser power from the warp drive for instance (TMP) This could be referenced by a that only works on Cruisers that lets Beams use Engine power instead of Weapon, or provides a buff to Beam damage based off of Engine power.
A fix for Science would be more weapons that use Aux power.
The FIRST thing I say to anyone who wants to DPS in a cruiser is "Attack pattern Beta", strangely enough the ONLY ship running AP:B (as shown in screenshots) was the Sci.
why no just fix the cost benefit of dps vs power use in the first place?
I think the main issue is more that there just isn't as much support for what Cruisers and Sci vessels do. Nerfing the relation between power and dps hurts cruisers and sci as well as escorts, since dps really matters. All ships need a reliable way to deal steady damage. Giving ships that relly on diff power settings than Weapon Power a reliable way to deal damage is a good fix.
The main issue isnt that cruisers and sci ships cant dps. Its that players dont build them and their own skill layouts to support how beams function. Thats the entire point of the video we shot. It shows what can be done with common gear. Check the other 2 videos in my sig to see what beams / cruisers can do with good gear.
The main issue isnt that cruisers and sci ships cant dps. Its that players dont build them and their own skill layouts to support how beams function. Thats the entire point of the video we shot. It shows what can be done with common gear. Check the other 2 videos in my sig to see what beams / cruisers can do with good gear.
You're close to making me want to park my Charal for a little while...long enough to unpack my Ambassador from the box it never came out of, and noodle with it some...
And you would be correct. STO used to be known on the PVP forums as "Crusiers Online" at one time. (escorts then were the typical glass cannons) Then the NERFs came. Next was Science, then the NERFs came to most all the Sci powers. All the while the C-Store/lockboxes was putting out escorts with more DPS, more eng slots, more of just about everything except for Boff healing slots.
The game was always pretty DPS dependant. (ever try Cry. Ent. way back when with a boat-load of cruisers?) But now, DPS is simply king with escorts being able to do pretty much everything better with the 1 exception of healing.
It appears that the cycle will be begin again with Geko looking to NERF the 4 armor slot escorts when really all that is needed is some additive passive armor for crusiers, some of the beam NERFs reversed, and a re-look at sci powers and reversal of the many NERFs that went on there.
Cryptic has a habit of putting something out that is very OP, not listening to feedback when it's on test, and then NERFing whatever system they worked on in the 1st place, to shreds in their final solution(s). And of course, selling power without any regard for game balance.
I sincerely hope they are looking at ALL of the science skills because what happened to science is unforgiveable.
Nerfing the skills instead of taking out the interaction between the tactical buffs and our particle skills, never updating the ships so they actually FIT what they were meant to do (right now every science ship is pretty much a carbon copy of the other with slight differences between the hulls), and then on top of this making beams not function like they should (we should not have to get closer to do more damage with beams that's ridiculous it's a focused energy beam for a reason, the lack of bonuses from the ships different power systems to add bonus damage to the beams is astonishing how could they have missed that engine power for cruisers and aux power for science ships are how they were able to defeat enemies in the first place).
I sincerely hope they are looking at ALL of the science skills because what happened to science is unforgiveable.
The intent is pretty clear to me now. They want most of the damage a ship does to based on their weapons, with sci powers providing CC or debuffs. To me this makes sense since even sci vessels carry 6 weapon slots on top of their sci abilities.
even if you say that you need to make sci boff abilities equate to tac boff abilities in effectiveness.
which they flat dont, even if you run a kinetic boat in order to drop weapon power to aux for sik powers you would still be better off with a kinetic escort.
As a matter of fact my sci alt does fly a kinetic sci vessel. I can wholeheartedly assure you a kinetic escort would not be able to run 2 grav wells and 2 tachy beams back to back.
Edit: did the 10k dps galaxy thread get merged with another thread? I can't seem to find it.
In damage, certainly. But how well will that work when you want to group up spheres in a nice tight ball and save the day when a less than capable or inattentive pugger failed to remember the 10% rule? Or how about when you have a wave of Negh'vars or raptors that you absolutely MUST delay? Sci vessels bring other things besides their DPS. In teams made up of ultra elite pros they may not be terribly usefull in PvE, but in pugland they're quite an asset to have.
Sadly I can't really comment more on specific builds beyond the eyeballing I did, but I just can't devote much time to gearing my sci alt, too many grinds you know?
I don't think many realize that if a sci, combining its weapon and space magic damage would equal a escort in DPS there would be no need for the escort. Sci vessels trade dps for utility/debuffs.
I love going into pugs and just ignoring the 10% rule with a high damage build. They all yell at me and it all works out in the end
Its not to be a **** or anything. Its because I know even with a low damage pug that my builds can rip down all 4 generators fast enough. Just park right above the transformer and blast them all with faw. Or in my escorts I just fly a lap around the transformer taking generators as I go.
Engineer - T5 Anniversary Ambassador (soon upgraded to Fleet Version)
Tactical - Ody Science
Tactical - Bortasqu Command (the one with 2 sci console slots)
With bouth Tacs I have an Escort (or a BoP for the KDF char) as secondary fun ship.
I do not have much problems with the cruiser damage. Its ok enough in all cases to hold aggro (no +th consoles; just some points into thread) and to destroy targets at a reasonable pace. They are all quite canonical in their weapon setup with phaser (disruptor for kdf) beam arrays and quantumtorps front and aft.
The only ship that feels a bit like it takes it like a Tank in certain elite contend is the Sci Oddy flown by the Tac with its 16k resilient Maco XII shields (1,15 shieldmod + 4x fieldgen). The Hull HP difference between the mighty thick hulled Bortasqu and everything else is laughable if you consider how fast hull goes bye bye without shields. Actually the C-Store Defiant feels as save and reliable to fly as the bortasqu by having very similar shield HP (bouth using the same shield) a hull that does not matter much if shields are gone but far superior turnrate and better firepower because of cannons. The only big + for the bortasqu tanking would be the commander engi boff; but thats based on a skill and a cooldown.
The Engineer in the Amba is somewhere between bouth; but that will change with the fleet version of the amba because of bigger shieldmod & an additional sci console for the fieldgen.
IMO there need to be either of two changes made:
1) Something with the shields:
A cruiser with the same amout of science slots is not that much more protected than a escort with the same amount. The bit it has to make it a difference in taking damage is evened out by the escorts enhanced ability to evade damage completly and still dishing out more damage because they a) mount cannons and b) are far quicker at new targets because of their turn.
Question is what could be done there? If too much amount is put on the base modifier (like every cuiser has at least 1.5; ody/fleetships/similar 1.65) you probably end up with absurd differnces between a 4x sciconsole & 2x sciconsole cruisers. Also Sciships then need an enhancement too. How about an inherent level scaling fieldgen on every cruiser? That could "maybe" work. But overall I think its the dependancy on shields thats a problem and just throwing in MOAR shields will not solve it (might be wrong, it up to the devs to test the numbers).
2) Something with the hull HP:
Hull is too squishy. If your shields are gone and your heals are on CD the difference between a 60k & 40k (Numbers based on the difference between Bortasqu & C-Store Defiant with similar skilled Captains of mine) sounds only good on paper. This is the moment in which every cruiser wished he would be an escort now because of damage evasion.
I think here it is where buffs are needed in some form or shape. It could come with a inherent undimished resistance to every damage type that only cruisers get. Or a vastly enhanced regeneration based on crewnumbers (but ONLY if the surrealistic silly crewkills in combat get fixed; otherwise don't bother) or just more (much much more) hull HP for cruisers. Or a mixture of all of the above.
Last: "Da dmg suxx!"
Actually I disagree. Yes, its worse then the Escort damage. But the numbers are totally ok to gets things done. What suxx is a rewardsystem based on only damage done (afaik healing others but yourself = damage done) but not tanking/survival.
I personally can't stand cannons, I only like beams, so If I can't compete with beams instead of cannons, then the devs need to make the changes for any weapon to be more balanced.
None of the classes need buffs or nerfs, it's all about the DIFFICULTY level, on good hands of a player, escort and sci ship and cruiser can all prove to be evenly useful to the team in their own aspect.
escorts are easiest to use, point and shoot.
cruisers are second easiest to use, point and shoot, heal your team and yourself.
science ships are harder to use than any of the prevous ship types, they need good skill tree, good reflexes, understanding of all the skills and balance of the game, you have to understand when to use what skills and what skills are used onw hat and what do you want to do with your ship. all this makes it hard to use science ship but once you understand how science ships works and master them, they are great.
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
None of the classes need buffs or nerfs, it's all about the DIFFICULTY level, on good hands of a player, escort and sci ship and cruiser can all prove to be evenly useful to the team in their own aspect.
escorts are easiest to use, point and shoot.
cruisers are second easiest to use, point and shoot, heal your team and yourself.
science ships are harder to use than any of the prevous ship types, they need good skill tree, good reflexes, understanding of all the skills and balance of the game, you have to understand when to use what skills and what skills are used onw hat and what do you want to do with your ship. all this makes it hard to use science ship but once you understand how science ships works and master them, they are great.
yet some cant control escorts or keep the target in line of fire
in pvp (kerrat or puging ) my science wells healer is alot easier to use than my escort tac simply because I can heal myself and others , fire and debuff at the same time.I cant do all 3 with my escorts without dying alot more.
of course in a premade with a healer you can always blame the healer lol ,but pugging or kerrat escorts (not talking about BoPs) are not the easiest thing to fly.
Comments
I've been slowly converted to the side that beams are pretty good. I still at this point say single cannons and turrets are "better" but not by the gap that I originally measured. Now I'm beginning to see them as a perfectly viable option, and excellent in the proper situations.
Who knows, future testing may even lead me to fly a beam boat, something I always wanted to do but always found lacking. What I find they lack for single target they just might edge out in the long run multi target.
Edit: Oh my, I just watched the one in your sig! now there is more! Thanks much!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
how did these 2 players get their ability icons to match their respective career colors instead of being a uniform color?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
That was kind of the point of doing this test and posting the video. Beams can do great damage. Even poorly geared ships should have no issue in pve if your build is good and you know the fights. Putting higher quality gear on that ship doubles its damage but by no means do you need to have the best gear to get through the content sto has to offer.
PvP is the exception however. If you want to go up against TSI and Turkish rp or Sad Pandas you better know your @#$@, have a great team with you, and have the best gear you can bring lol.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
Gotta love that 4.2k DPS eng/cruiser... and the way it got its backside kicked my the Sci in the SLOWER ship...
So what do we take home from this?
I have an old add-on from a long time that you put in your live folder that substitutes icon in game for the icons you see, I've posted it to our fleet. If you look you'll see the icons are the old ones from a long time ago. It's also why some are the default blue, having not existed when the add-on was made.
It's gonna break pretty bad when the new UI hits.
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
ahh, that explains it; i thought i was missing out on some UI setting or something
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
That even with WHITE (common) MK X gear my Engineer can still pull 4.2k DPS...
And were in you in STF? If so, I didn't see you there.
And remember Scis can always do more damage than Engineers in space: Tacs Buff damage, Scis Debuff defenses (which buffs damage), engineers Heal/Survive Damage. They will always do less damage with comparable gear.
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
A fix for Science would be more weapons that use Aux power.
The FIRST thing I say to anyone who wants to DPS in a cruiser is "Attack pattern Beta", strangely enough the ONLY ship running AP:B (as shown in screenshots) was the Sci.
I think the main issue is more that there just isn't as much support for what Cruisers and Sci vessels do. Nerfing the relation between power and dps hurts cruisers and sci as well as escorts, since dps really matters. All ships need a reliable way to deal steady damage. Giving ships that relly on diff power settings than Weapon Power a reliable way to deal damage is a good fix.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
You're close to making me want to park my Charal for a little while...long enough to unpack my Ambassador from the box it never came out of, and noodle with it some...
Thanks for the vids.
I sincerely hope they are looking at ALL of the science skills because what happened to science is unforgiveable.
Nerfing the skills instead of taking out the interaction between the tactical buffs and our particle skills, never updating the ships so they actually FIT what they were meant to do (right now every science ship is pretty much a carbon copy of the other with slight differences between the hulls), and then on top of this making beams not function like they should (we should not have to get closer to do more damage with beams that's ridiculous it's a focused energy beam for a reason, the lack of bonuses from the ships different power systems to add bonus damage to the beams is astonishing how could they have missed that engine power for cruisers and aux power for science ships are how they were able to defeat enemies in the first place).
The intent is pretty clear to me now. They want most of the damage a ship does to based on their weapons, with sci powers providing CC or debuffs. To me this makes sense since even sci vessels carry 6 weapon slots on top of their sci abilities.
As a matter of fact my sci alt does fly a kinetic sci vessel. I can wholeheartedly assure you a kinetic escort would not be able to run 2 grav wells and 2 tachy beams back to back.
Edit: did the 10k dps galaxy thread get merged with another thread? I can't seem to find it.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
In damage, certainly. But how well will that work when you want to group up spheres in a nice tight ball and save the day when a less than capable or inattentive pugger failed to remember the 10% rule? Or how about when you have a wave of Negh'vars or raptors that you absolutely MUST delay? Sci vessels bring other things besides their DPS. In teams made up of ultra elite pros they may not be terribly usefull in PvE, but in pugland they're quite an asset to have.
Sadly I can't really comment more on specific builds beyond the eyeballing I did, but I just can't devote much time to gearing my sci alt, too many grinds you know?
I don't think many realize that if a sci, combining its weapon and space magic damage would equal a escort in DPS there would be no need for the escort. Sci vessels trade dps for utility/debuffs.
Its not to be a **** or anything. Its because I know even with a low damage pug that my builds can rip down all 4 generators fast enough. Just park right above the transformer and blast them all with faw. Or in my escorts I just fly a lap around the transformer taking generators as I go.
[SIGPIC]http://file3.guildlaunch.net/205090/DVhexishensig.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Cruisers with mk x common in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82PqoFFxjc
Cruisers with good gear in infected elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMnFljZD9m8
Soloing Infected Elite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaEFICFx4E8&feature=youtu.be
Engineer - T5 Anniversary Ambassador (soon upgraded to Fleet Version)
Tactical - Ody Science
Tactical - Bortasqu Command (the one with 2 sci console slots)
With bouth Tacs I have an Escort (or a BoP for the KDF char) as secondary fun ship.
I do not have much problems with the cruiser damage. Its ok enough in all cases to hold aggro (no +th consoles; just some points into thread) and to destroy targets at a reasonable pace. They are all quite canonical in their weapon setup with phaser (disruptor for kdf) beam arrays and quantumtorps front and aft.
The only ship that feels a bit like it takes it like a Tank in certain elite contend is the Sci Oddy flown by the Tac with its 16k resilient Maco XII shields (1,15 shieldmod + 4x fieldgen). The Hull HP difference between the mighty thick hulled Bortasqu and everything else is laughable if you consider how fast hull goes bye bye without shields. Actually the C-Store Defiant feels as save and reliable to fly as the bortasqu by having very similar shield HP (bouth using the same shield) a hull that does not matter much if shields are gone but far superior turnrate and better firepower because of cannons. The only big + for the bortasqu tanking would be the commander engi boff; but thats based on a skill and a cooldown.
The Engineer in the Amba is somewhere between bouth; but that will change with the fleet version of the amba because of bigger shieldmod & an additional sci console for the fieldgen.
IMO there need to be either of two changes made:
1) Something with the shields:
A cruiser with the same amout of science slots is not that much more protected than a escort with the same amount. The bit it has to make it a difference in taking damage is evened out by the escorts enhanced ability to evade damage completly and still dishing out more damage because they a) mount cannons and b) are far quicker at new targets because of their turn.
Question is what could be done there? If too much amount is put on the base modifier (like every cuiser has at least 1.5; ody/fleetships/similar 1.65) you probably end up with absurd differnces between a 4x sciconsole & 2x sciconsole cruisers. Also Sciships then need an enhancement too. How about an inherent level scaling fieldgen on every cruiser? That could "maybe" work. But overall I think its the dependancy on shields thats a problem and just throwing in MOAR shields will not solve it (might be wrong, it up to the devs to test the numbers).
2) Something with the hull HP:
Hull is too squishy. If your shields are gone and your heals are on CD the difference between a 60k & 40k (Numbers based on the difference between Bortasqu & C-Store Defiant with similar skilled Captains of mine) sounds only good on paper. This is the moment in which every cruiser wished he would be an escort now because of damage evasion.
I think here it is where buffs are needed in some form or shape. It could come with a inherent undimished resistance to every damage type that only cruisers get. Or a vastly enhanced regeneration based on crewnumbers (but ONLY if the surrealistic silly crewkills in combat get fixed; otherwise don't bother) or just more (much much more) hull HP for cruisers. Or a mixture of all of the above.
Last: "Da dmg suxx!"
Actually I disagree. Yes, its worse then the Escort damage. But the numbers are totally ok to gets things done. What suxx is a rewardsystem based on only damage done (afaik healing others but yourself = damage done) but not tanking/survival.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
escorts are easiest to use, point and shoot.
cruisers are second easiest to use, point and shoot, heal your team and yourself.
science ships are harder to use than any of the prevous ship types, they need good skill tree, good reflexes, understanding of all the skills and balance of the game, you have to understand when to use what skills and what skills are used onw hat and what do you want to do with your ship. all this makes it hard to use science ship but once you understand how science ships works and master them, they are great.
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
yet some cant control escorts or keep the target in line of fire
in pvp (kerrat or puging ) my science wells healer is alot easier to use than my escort tac simply because I can heal myself and others , fire and debuff at the same time.I cant do all 3 with my escorts without dying alot more.
of course in a premade with a healer you can always blame the healer lol ,but pugging or kerrat escorts (not talking about BoPs) are not the easiest thing to fly.