The success of the Foundry = The ability of authors to tell stories. That has been the overarching justification for the tool since it was introduced in STO.
If you can find a different source, then I'll read it. You know, something like, "We envision players using the Foundry to farm loot, take advantage of exploits, and create their own short, repeatable and non-story grind content that helps them fill their buckets."
I don't think that was the major intent for most. The STFs are boring and they were overloaded with AFKers. The ability to advance a Starbase ala S7 became absolutely ludicrous hard, especially for small fleets. What happened to the Foundry sadly is it became the easiest and best way to get FM and Dil in one go.
The problem was that firstly, it was subject to way too many exploits, and we became two sides that had no choice but to be in each other's faces for what the other one wants or needs. IMO, fleet advancement had no business being connected to the Foundry in the first place.
I put this in another thread, but this discussion has been over and done with already. Please see here.
Specifically so:
We want the Foundry to be used for users to create missions. Set a scenario, create the world anew for yourself. The tool was not created to allow players to level up easier, to have a quicker way to gather Accolades, or similar. If your mission sets this as a goal in any form, we may take action. Please do not create missions that are geared towards boosting of any kind.
I don't know how it could have been made any clearer than that. An alternative is needed.
Is AFK wrong? The answer is yes, in ALL circumstances.
Even if a paying customer is playing solo (as in by his/her self). And somehow that is not trying to legislate?
Ok, sure.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
When asked what he would do differently if he could have a do over on Star Wars Galaxies, Smedley said, 'We would have encouraged more in-depth discussion with the community surrounding the idea of any game modifications.'
And I'd ask Dan Stahl if he really wants to be echoing John Smedley's words in a year, two years or five years time when the direction this game is taking finally drives away such passionate, creative and tolerant fans?
No, it doesn't specify only stories, but it clearly privileges the role of the tool as a story-telling tool.
It's a pretty open interpretation of "your way," if you want to read: "Create your mindless grindfests where a nebula and a fence in space help players earn lots of lootz. We're just so excited to see what kind of exploits the community can make."
Anyone who reads these quotes can clearly see what the tool was designed to be.
It says my way, it says missions if I want to create a mission where you kill mobs for fun then it's my way and funnily enough my way reflects Cryptic's way which is basically endlessly killing mobs in PVE.
Apparently when Cryptic create missions that are story light and mob heavy it's fine but if a player wants to do that in the foundry it's not.
You lost the argument a long time ago it's obvious from the landing page that they gave no specific stipulations on what you can and cannot make. Indeed this move if anything legitimizes that fact as they aren't removing this missions they removing the rewards wrapper. If the missions were against the Foundry's EULA then they would be gone.
The success of the Foundry = The ability of authors to tell stories. That has been the overarching justification for the tool since it was introduced in STO.
If you can find a different source, then I'll read it. You know, something like, "We envision players using the Foundry to farm loot, take advantage of exploits, and create their own short, repeatable and non-story grind content that helps them fill their buckets."
no idea where you got the idea that the foundry wasn't something the users could use as they see fit. plz don't go down this route again Kirk. You're starting to sound worse than the devs.
I don't know how it could have been made any clearer than that. An alternative is needed.
That directly contradicts their landing page blurb and may I add also contradicts their actual behaviour if, these missions were in fact verboten then, they would not remove the wrapper but the missions themselves.
I may be crazy, but again people, look at the sigs of the majority of the defenders of this poorly thought out decision. Foundry authors.
No, not Foundry authors. Do not throw us all in the lot. It was a small number of authors (probably less than you can count on two hands) that caused all this because their egos were not being stroked enough because the player base didn't like the sort of mission they were writing. So rather than write missions the player base liked they complained, because people were playing the content they liked, and not theirs. And now we are all losing as a result.
Lo is the irony, that their complaints of people playing short combat missions taking away from people playing their missions has lead to people likely not playing foundry at all, and Cryptic forcing people into combat only queued missions to get Fleet Marks that otherwise had them actually playing and enjoying the foundry.
So congrats to them, they broke it for the whole of us.
no idea where you got the idea that the foundry wasn't something the users could use as they see fit. plz don't go down this route again Kirk. You're starting to sound worse than the devs.
The Irony is he already admitted in several other threads that he has no problem with active grinder missions so he actually accepts them as a viable element of the foundry.
And to be honest nearly all active grinder missions can be done in 15 minutes, the only difference being you have bash the space bar a little more.
We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes. - Gene Roddenberry
OK, so it looks like that was said by Wishstone, who was community moderator before BF.
Ow, it looks like...really?? I would believe you, but since you proud yourself on being a great storyteller, who is to say you're not telling stories now?:rolleyes:
Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
Ow, it looks like...really?? I would believe you, but since you proud yourself on being a great storyteller, who is to say you're not telling stories now?:rolleyes:
Read the thread. The folks that respond to the post address their response to Wishstone.
don't derail this magnificent thread by allowing it to devolve into an 'us vs them' argument - whatever feelings you may have about some of the Foundry authors, they're as powerless as we are to effect changes on this game.
This wasn't done to please the Foundry authors any more than the Doff upgrinder price increases were made to please Doff sellers.
There's one person - and one person alone that's responsible for this and that's the OP - if you have to, direct your ire at him but not at the community.
1] Can you show me a quote where anyone a Cryptic specifically says the Foundry was only for Authors to tell Stories?
2] The the overarching justification for the tool was to test it's viability as an integral part of Neverwinter.
3] Here is the official Foundry Page Intro Text:
The Foundry for Star Trek Online is your first chance to craft the Star Trek universe your way. Using The Foundry toolset, you can create and build brand new missions and stories to share with your friends and the entire Star Trek Online community. Use the specialized editor to create missions in space or on the ground. Re-create your favorite Star Trek episode or design your very own from scratch!
The Foundry for Star Trek Online is already live and ready for you to use. Gold members can simply log into the game and create content. Once at the Character Selection screen, click on the "Create Content" tab to start designing and building your own missions! Silver members will need to purchase or unlock Foundry Project Slots. Visit the free-to-play Features Matrix to learn more.
As you can see it doesn't specify ONLY STORIES. It also specifically says we can do what we want with the tool "craft the star trek universe in your way"
Your way not being Kirkfats or Hippiejohns or Daniel Stahls way. :cool:
Also have to laugh at the irony of that Foundry You Tube clip... filled with cuts of Space and Ground battles and not endless walls of text however irrelevant as the official text on the Foundry Landing page says I can make a mission MY WAY.
I couldn't have said it better myself... This game is not just about story... and it has gotten further and further from story since its release. How many cryptic missions from the beginning are scan five things or destroy five groups of enemies without any real back story? I digress, this feed is more about reward changes than about foundry content...
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
...I don't know how it could have been made any clearer than that. An alternative is needed.
A lot of people agree with you, and in principle, they did say it was a temporary measure.
But its not that they just removed the FMs, its the fact they didn't fill the vacuum left by their stealth nerfing. The amount of time it takes vs the amount of FMs you get is ludicrous, period.
That's what has -most- people up in arms. Whether the Foundry authors had anything to do with the nerfings we'll never know, we do have posts taken right from these forums supporting your views on this. Perhaps Craptics using you as a scapegoat. If they are, then I feel sorry for you, because your going to bear the brunt of it.
The fact is, this nerf was a death knell for small fleets. STOwiki has the exact figure, but a 25 man fleet, if they do every project right away, filling it up immediately upon selection, will take 3 years to fully build their base. That's not including all the little luxurious projects they like to toss at you.
How many FMs does it take to do a Tier 3, 4 or 5 project? Exactly.
Their controlling you by controlling marks, both Romulan and Fleet. Period.
No, not Foundry authors. Do not throw us all in the lot. It was a small number of authors (probably less than you can count on two hands) that caused all this because their egos were not being stroked enough because the player base didn't like the sort of mission they were writing. So rather than write missions the player base liked they complained, because people were playing the content they liked, and not theirs. And now we are all losing as a result.
Lo is the irony, that their complaints of people playing short combat missions taking away from people playing their missions has lead to people likely not playing foundry at all, and Cryptic forcing people into combat only queued missions to get Fleet Marks that otherwise had them actually playing and enjoying the foundry.
So congrats to them, they broke it for the whole of us.
It is not my intention to blame all Foundry authors. The powers that be have previously redacted my attempts at narrow the population down a bit. It's strange that I can't narrow it down even without specifically naming names, but for some reason the power that be would rather all authors be blamed than the few that are at fault.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Brandon has said on twitter to someone that they will not reply to this unless something changes. But won't say it on the forums cause it will enrage the players
Officer of the watch should give at least 30 marks...its such a wasted mission as is.
It would be nice if you could aquire other fleet missions from him that aren't queued pves. Have fleet versions of patrols and explore strange new worlds. Those type of missions feel more Trek and add some variety.
If FM are to be earned through group play then why not add some sort of FM boost for teaming with your own fleeties. It could give a minimal amount of extra marks and be purchased from your starbase.
It just seems there could be easy solutions to lessen the "grinding feeling without even adding new content. It's what keeps being done with dilithium and seems to be working pretty well now.
Having a choice of equally beneficial options is what is missing from FMs.
Rewards across the board need a revamp... I realize that takes time but before you go taking something away you should have an alternative in place.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
don't derail this magnificent thread by allowing it to devolve into an 'us vs them' argument - whatever feelings you may have about some of the Foundry authors, they're as powerless as we are to effect changes on this game.
This wasn't done to please the Foundry authors any more than the Doff upgrinder price increases were made to please Doff sellers.
There's one person - and one person alone that's responsible for this and that's the OP - if you have to, direct your ire at him but not at the community.
It's not so much us directing ire at Foundry authors, but Foundry authors assuming their interpretation of what a missions is, is the only one and that somehow it is aligned with Cryptics own opinion and behaviour... which clearly it is not.
The reality is certain people in this thread seem to believe the change was the right course of action, when the truth is the change is just another meddlesome attempt to divert people away from the root issue which is that Cryptic are changing the game in such a way as to make it less fun and people are reacting to that fact.
Honestly I don't believe I even talked about Foundry Authors until a few turned up and decided their interpretation is immutable and perfect.
Brandon has said on twitter to someone that they will not reply to this unless something changes. But won't say it on the forums cause it will enrage the players
Comments
I don't think that was the major intent for most. The STFs are boring and they were overloaded with AFKers. The ability to advance a Starbase ala S7 became absolutely ludicrous hard, especially for small fleets. What happened to the Foundry sadly is it became the easiest and best way to get FM and Dil in one go.
The problem was that firstly, it was subject to way too many exploits, and we became two sides that had no choice but to be in each other's faces for what the other one wants or needs. IMO, fleet advancement had no business being connected to the Foundry in the first place.
I put this in another thread, but this discussion has been over and done with already. Please see here.
Specifically so:
I don't know how it could have been made any clearer than that. An alternative is needed.
by @Skydawn - member of Starbase UGC
Even if a paying customer is playing solo (as in by his/her self). And somehow that is not trying to legislate?
Ok, sure.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
And I'd ask Dan Stahl if he really wants to be echoing John Smedley's words in a year, two years or five years time when the direction this game is taking finally drives away such passionate, creative and tolerant fans?
It says my way, it says missions if I want to create a mission where you kill mobs for fun then it's my way and funnily enough my way reflects Cryptic's way which is basically endlessly killing mobs in PVE.
Apparently when Cryptic create missions that are story light and mob heavy it's fine but if a player wants to do that in the foundry it's not.
You lost the argument a long time ago it's obvious from the landing page that they gave no specific stipulations on what you can and cannot make. Indeed this move if anything legitimizes that fact as they aren't removing this missions they removing the rewards wrapper. If the missions were against the Foundry's EULA then they would be gone.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Where does that archived post come from? Who wrote it?
thanks
Corbormite
no idea where you got the idea that the foundry wasn't something the users could use as they see fit. plz don't go down this route again Kirk. You're starting to sound worse than the devs.
That directly contradicts their landing page blurb and may I add also contradicts their actual behaviour if, these missions were in fact verboten then, they would not remove the wrapper but the missions themselves.
Simple as that.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
No, not Foundry authors. Do not throw us all in the lot. It was a small number of authors (probably less than you can count on two hands) that caused all this because their egos were not being stroked enough because the player base didn't like the sort of mission they were writing. So rather than write missions the player base liked they complained, because people were playing the content they liked, and not theirs. And now we are all losing as a result.
Lo is the irony, that their complaints of people playing short combat missions taking away from people playing their missions has lead to people likely not playing foundry at all, and Cryptic forcing people into combat only queued missions to get Fleet Marks that otherwise had them actually playing and enjoying the foundry.
So congrats to them, they broke it for the whole of us.
The thread started here before it was locked down. It was another very long discussion over grinding missions.
by @Skydawn - member of Starbase UGC
The Irony is he already admitted in several other threads that he has no problem with active grinder missions so he actually accepts them as a viable element of the foundry.
And to be honest nearly all active grinder missions can be done in 15 minutes, the only difference being you have bash the space bar a little more.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
If you can't reproduce it, provide the author, etc. your post is meaningless. For all I know you wrote it.
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
OK, so it looks like that was said by Wishstone, who was community moderator before BF.
Not only that but it is meaningless as it is not reflected in the TOS or UELA, behavior of Cryptic or the description on the landing page.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Ow, it looks like...really?? I would believe you, but since you proud yourself on being a great storyteller, who is to say you're not telling stories now?:rolleyes:
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Most of the sane foundry "authors" did.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Read the thread. The folks that respond to the post address their response to Wishstone.
don't derail this magnificent thread by allowing it to devolve into an 'us vs them' argument - whatever feelings you may have about some of the Foundry authors, they're as powerless as we are to effect changes on this game.
This wasn't done to please the Foundry authors any more than the Doff upgrinder price increases were made to please Doff sellers.
There's one person - and one person alone that's responsible for this and that's the OP - if you have to, direct your ire at him but not at the community.
I couldn't have said it better myself... This game is not just about story... and it has gotten further and further from story since its release. How many cryptic missions from the beginning are scan five things or destroy five groups of enemies without any real back story? I digress, this feed is more about reward changes than about foundry content...
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
A lot of people agree with you, and in principle, they did say it was a temporary measure.
But its not that they just removed the FMs, its the fact they didn't fill the vacuum left by their stealth nerfing. The amount of time it takes vs the amount of FMs you get is ludicrous, period.
That's what has -most- people up in arms. Whether the Foundry authors had anything to do with the nerfings we'll never know, we do have posts taken right from these forums supporting your views on this. Perhaps Craptics using you as a scapegoat. If they are, then I feel sorry for you, because your going to bear the brunt of it.
The fact is, this nerf was a death knell for small fleets. STOwiki has the exact figure, but a 25 man fleet, if they do every project right away, filling it up immediately upon selection, will take 3 years to fully build their base. That's not including all the little luxurious projects they like to toss at you.
How many FMs does it take to do a Tier 3, 4 or 5 project? Exactly.
Their controlling you by controlling marks, both Romulan and Fleet. Period.
It is not my intention to blame all Foundry authors. The powers that be have previously redacted my attempts at narrow the population down a bit. It's strange that I can't narrow it down even without specifically naming names, but for some reason the power that be would rather all authors be blamed than the few that are at fault.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
... how would I have written that entire thread myself and link to it exactly?
by @Skydawn - member of Starbase UGC
https://twitter.com/PWE_BranFlakes/status/302861806165180418
Rewards across the board need a revamp... I realize that takes time but before you go taking something away you should have an alternative in place.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
It's not so much us directing ire at Foundry authors, but Foundry authors assuming their interpretation of what a missions is, is the only one and that somehow it is aligned with Cryptics own opinion and behaviour... which clearly it is not.
The reality is certain people in this thread seem to believe the change was the right course of action, when the truth is the change is just another meddlesome attempt to divert people away from the root issue which is that Cryptic are changing the game in such a way as to make it less fun and people are reacting to that fact.
Honestly I don't believe I even talked about Foundry Authors until a few turned up and decided their interpretation is immutable and perfect.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
In defense of Bran, he has very little control over what gets put into the game, and whats taken out.
He can make suggestions and provide input, but ultimately he works for PWE and not Cryptic. Cryptic makes the call on content.
Although I wonder if he got warned about the s**tstorm that was approaching...
The conspiracy grows!