Cryptic please don't listen to all these complainers. Of course all the people that are against it are going to be complaining the loudest and most on forums, but fact is most players aren't complaining here and don't really have a problem with these changes.
Both my Fed and KDF fleets are close to 500 members and most are not active on the forums, and from what I have seen of other Fleets this size it is similar with them.
From what I hear from everyone on Fleet chat and teamspeak none of them are complaining or care I assume this is similar with many other fleets. The mostly silient majority does not mind these changes and are ok with it, don't let the loud angry minority bully you into giving them their exploits back. These changes were the right thing to do for the foundry and for the Fleet Event system (maybe we will actually get the queues active again outside of events)
Then why do you still hold the refine cap at 8000 Dilithium per day? I don't get it.
I get it, but I don't have to like it.
It's simple. 8K per day encourages alternate accounts. Alternate accounts means people need to spend Zen on extra slots.
I guarantee you they've taken a look at the internal numbers, the % of alts used as Dil farms who sell on the exchange vs. the % of alts doing full content, and worked out they make more money selling slots for alts than they'd make selling refining cap increases.
I really don't think there's anything more to it than that.
So my advice is get an alt, farm some Dil with Doffs, and use the exchange to move your Dil between your accounts as needed. It's the best option we've got.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Then why is my fleet chat and teamspeak silent on this issue. Sorry but that counts for as much as 10, 20 maybe even 30 times as much people as your Fleet likely has. It is the same way on both my KDF and Fed fleets as I am a member of 2 different Fleets around same size, none of them care. Sorry but your small fleet= small amount of players=insignificant minority.
Cryptic please don't listen to all these complainers. Of course all the people that are against it are going to be complaining the loudest and most on forums, but fact is most players aren't complaining here and don't really have a problem with these changes.
Both my Fed and KDF fleets are close to 500 members and most are not active on the forums, and from what I have seen of other Fleets this size it is similar with them.
From what I hear from everyone on Fleet chat and teamspeak none of them are complaining or care I assume this is similar with many other fleets. The mostly silient majority does not mind these changes and are ok with it, don't let the loud angry minority bully you into giving them their exploits back. These changes were the right thing to do for the foundry and for the Fleet Event system (maybe we will actually get the queues active again outside of events)
I think I peed myself a little trickle after I read this one.
The fact is most players ARE complaining. Go read your zone chat. They just can't be bothered to interrupt the ridiculous grind for OM, RM, FMs and of course EC to buy keys for the lockboxes to come here and post their thoughts.
Then why, if you literally no longer have any reason to be here what with deleting a starbase and all seven of your characters, are you still posting here? You're done. You have no horse in this race any longer.
The horse is still in the race. It simply stopped running.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Then why is my fleet chat and teamspeak silent on this issue. Sorry but that counts for as much as 10, 20 maybe even 30 times as much people as your Fleet likely has. It is the same way on both my KDF and Fed fleets as I am a member of 2 different Fleets around same size, none of them care. Sorry but your small fleet= small amount of players=insignificant minority.
Well then, tell your super leet Cryptic Defense Force fleet to voice their opinion, because so far (especially when combining the closed threads) there are 100+ pages of near universal condemnation. Not to mention the zone chats and Facebook postings.
So your supposedlly 500+ person fleet is fine. Good for you. You guys obviously enjoy grinding the same handful of missions over and over and over and over again. Some of us wanted to do something different, now we can't. To make matters worse, the authors who screamed for these changes will probably see a decrease in foundry usage since there is no incentive to use the foundry now (not even to level alternate toons).
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Cryptic please don't listen to all these complainers. Of course all the people that are against it are going to be complaining the loudest and most on forums, but fact is most players aren't complaining here and don't really have a problem with these changes.
Both my Fed and KDF fleets are close to 500 members and most are not active on the forums, and from what I have seen of other Fleets this size it is similar with them.
From what I hear from everyone on Fleet chat and teamspeak none of them are complaining or care I assume this is similar with many other fleets. The mostly silient majority does not mind these changes and are ok with it, don't let the loud angry minority bully you into giving them their exploits back. These changes were the right thing to do for the foundry and for the Fleet Event system (maybe we will actually get the queues active again outside of events)
Again you assume. Silence does not necessarily mean agreement. We've also established it never fit the definition of exploit but keep weaving your sutures of misinformation into the Frankenstein of lies, spin doctor.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Cryptic please don't listen to all these complainers. Of course all the people that are against it are going to be complaining the loudest and most on forums, but fact is most players aren't complaining here and don't really have a problem with these changes.
Both my Fed and KDF fleets are close to 500 members and most are not active on the forums, and from what I have seen of other Fleets this size it is similar with them.
From what I hear from everyone on Fleet chat and teamspeak none of them are complaining or care I assume this is similar with many other fleets. The mostly silient majority does not mind these changes and are ok with it, don't let the loud angry minority bully you into giving them their exploits back. These changes were the right thing to do for the foundry and for the Fleet Event system (maybe we will actually get the queues active again outside of events)
You must be joking right?
Have you seen the last thread before this? Have you even read the posts in this thread.
It's only a small amount of people that are in agreement and they're mostly in large fleets so are not bothered, but this is getting towards the removal of Dil from STF amount of rage that Cryptic ended up backtracking and changed. Other sources too are capturing this negativity (except Massively ofc) so not sure where your coming from.
How do you know it's a silent majority that's happy with the changes?
I'm all for discussion and standing up for your side, but when you brush away pages and pages of people posting and then seem to have your own metrics saying people are happy with the changes, then I have to say wow...
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Fleets are more than just numbers. Fleets are social groups, however small or large, usually clustered around a common interest or goal. We may not want to be a large, faceless corporation with as many faceless minions as we can spam recruit. We want to be a loyal team of close friends without losing a decent avenue of access to group benefits. We know it will take more effort or time for smaller fleets, but that does not mean it should be difficult or take long enough to leave the fleet discouraged or broken.
The problem now is the game design forces a player to focus their time and energy on either individual progression (reputation) or group progression (fleet stuff). As a small fleet leader, I see most of my members focusing on individual progression so they can remain competitive before they move on to group progression.
If a fleet member wants the MACO ground and space sets, I can expect they won't contribute much to the fleet for at least a week if they're maxing out their daily dilithium refinement. If that player suddenly decides they want to see how the other reputation sets compare, that length of time without their contributions to the fleet increases dramatically. That only takes into consideration the dilithium contributions they might provide. There is also the loss of fleet mark contributions since they have to spend their time grinding reputation marks to help get the reputation gear instead of working on fleet activities.
We might even work on things together as a fleet, but unless we do the few Cryptic-designated missions that award fleet marks, we get no benefit for the fleet. It should not be this way. We have an automatic Veteran XP buff that benefits teams and helps with leveling. Add an automatic fleet buff that grants 1FM per an amount of XP gained while working on something while teamed with fleet members. Additional fleet marks entering the game are not going to break the game. Rather, I expect it would greatly benefit fleets of all sizes and actually help promote fleet ship module sales.
I posted this in yesterday's thread that was closed, but it still applies. I think Fleet progress should be similar to reputation progress.
No project takes longer than twenty hours, and upgrades take even less time.
There should be at least two XP-only projects for each fleet holding subsection, and neither of them should require dilithium.
Upgrade projects should also not require dilithium.
The only projects that should require dilithium should be the projects that lead to unlocks and provisions, just like it is with the reputation system.
There needs to be ways to earn greater amounts of Fleet Marks in shorter times. The answer to this is not to use "boosts", but other methods to earn the Fleet Marks, such as an automatic additional reward for doing activities while teamed within your fleet.
Small fleets need goals that are readily obtainable even if they're composed of mostly casual players. Individually, the reputation system does this, but for a fleet, the fleet holdings do not. Time-gate progression if you must, but do not make it harder to obtain the necessary inputs. If anything, make it easier and give fleet leaders controls to limit contributions if they run into problems providing everyone with the opportunity to contribute. Changes like removing an easier source of Fleet Marks put small fleets one step closer to growing discouraged and breaking up. Folks want their T4/T5 fleet gear, and are willing to pay for it if we'd just have an easier road access. What we don't have is more time for more grind.
Have you seen the last thread before this? Have you even read the posts in this thread.
It's a small amount of people that are in agreement and they're mostly in large fleets so are not bothered, but this is getting towards the removal of Dil from STF amount of rage that Cryptic ended up backtracking and changed. Other sources too are capturing this negativity (except Massively ofc) so not sure where your coming from.
How do you know it's a silent majority that's happy with the changes?
I'm all for discussion and standing up for your side, but when you brush away pages and pages of people posting and then seem to have your own metrics saying people are happy with the changes, then I have to say wow...
No its a small amount of posters from mostly large fleets who all agree with their posters. Most people aren't going to post unless they complain.
Guess what , there are lots of large fleets and most feel the same way. Large fleets=large amounts of players that don't mind these changes.
No its a small amount of posters from mostly large fleets who all agree with their posters. Most people aren't going to post unless they complain.
Guess what , there are lots of large fleets and most feel the same way. Large fleets=large amounts of players that don't mind these changes.
It's not about large fleet vs small fleet. Before, we had an option as to how we wanted to get FM. I did both Foundry and Fleet missions. I could choose.
I have no choice, I must grind the same boring missions, and so do my fleet mates. Not to mention the Foundry is uselss now; no XP awarding IOR, won't bother to play it. Scalling awards that award less dilithium than before, won't bother with the Foundry.
This one action killed small fleets, seriously put a damper in advancing a toon strictly by Foundry wrappers, killed any need to use the Foundry, and now killed choice.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
No its a small amount of posters from mostly large fleets who all agree with their posters. Most people aren't going to post unless they complain.
Guess what , there are lots of large fleets and most feel the same way. Large fleets=large amounts of players that don't mind these changes.
Conjecture.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
If the majority of fleets in STO are less than 25 "active" players, than shouldn't that be the model Cryptic uses to base fleet mark resources. Looking at the change, I would say it is just the opposite.
I am not ripping on the removal of fleet marks from the foundry so much as I am limiting the ability for those 25 active player fleets from actually progressing at a reasonable rate.\
Most MMOs that I have played that had a leveling guild/fleet system, did not do it via grind, but by a shared EXP system. I am not requesting that here, but those systems allowed for a natural progression of the guild/fleet without requiring members to drop what they are doing and spend their entire game day grinding fleet marks.
You know Cryptic has Jumped the Proverbial Shark when they introduced Tractor Pulling to Star Trek Online!
I truly hope this finds its way to you. I am taking my time writing it, doing my best not to make it ragey, and to keep it respectable.
To get this out of the way, regarding the fleet mark change, I am angry. I am angry at the Foundry Few (they know who they are) whose egos and entitlement created this whole mess, and I am angry at you for approving the changes that have gutted the acquisition of fleet marks and effectively crippled any chance my fleet has of leveling up our fleet holdings. With that said...
I do understand you wanting to increase the availability to earn dilithium in game. This is not a bad thing, the more dilithium the better. I happen to be one of those players who are sitting on a pile of ore because I hit the refining limit, but I know that there are a lot of players who do not have this issue and support making adjustments to help fill their pockets.
What I, and it seems 99 percent of everyone else, feel was a huge mistake was removing the ability to earn a respectable amount of fleet marks from the game. If you wanted to separate fleet marks from the foundry, ok, but why did you not add them to some other mission?
Fleet Mark/Event Missions
Currently the fleet mark missions such as Federation Fleet Alert, Starbase Fleet Defense, Incursion, Blockade, etc. have gotten stale. There are only so many times a person can do the same thing over and over before they go insane. It?s also not helped that these missions do not pay very well in fleet marks; this is especially true for Starbase Fleet Defense. I would like to suggest the following for your consideration:
1. Double the fleet mark payout. Yes, seriously. People are burnt out on grinding these missions for little to show for it. Make it worth our while again and I would imagine you will see more people playing them.
2. During the Fleet Mark event, increase the fleet mark payout to 2.5 times as much, or more if you were so inclined.
Fleet Action Missions
We currently have a Fleet Action Daily mission that provides 50 Fleet Marks for completing either Halting the Gorn Advance, Klingon Scout Force, or The Big Dig. The mission rotates every few days between those three missions. Again, for your consideration:
1. Change the Fleet Action Daily mission to a Fleet Action Repeatable with a 30 minute cooldown from time of pickup. Reduce or remove the dilithium payout if you feel that is necessary, and have it award 50 Fleet Marks when completed.
2. Add Starbase 24 and Breaking the Planet as eligible missions for the above suggested Fleet Action Repeatable. They are Fleet Actions, why they are not in the rotation for the current daily is a mystery to me.
I really cannot stress to you enough how negatively the current loss of fleet marks will impact my fleet, and I would dare assume a great many other fleets as well. The slow progress we have been making will come to a complete halt unless something is done. I ask you; please increase the ability to earn fleet marks. Please do this now. Not in three months, not in three weeks, but now. Take the servers down for "unscheduled maintenance", make the changes, and people will thank you for correcting a huge error.
Respectfully,
Brian
Thank you for the T6 Galaxy Class. - I support Tovan Khev. - Please bring back the exploration missions.
Then why is my fleet chat and teamspeak silent on this issue. Sorry but that counts for as much as 10, 20 maybe even 30 times as much people as your Fleet likely has. It is the same way on both my KDF and Fed fleets as I am a member of 2 different Fleets around same size, none of them care. Sorry but your small fleet= small amount of players=insignificant minority.
Sorry but you are in the minority when it comes to fleets. The average fleet size of 25 would not be that low if most people were in massive fleets. You're almost as out of touch as the businessmen behind the decisions.
No its a small amount of posters from mostly large fleets who all agree with their posters. Most people aren't going to post unless they complain.
Guess what , there are lots of large fleets and most feel the same way. Large fleets=large amounts of players that don't mind these changes.
I like you
Added you to my ever decreasing list...;)
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
I'm just going to add a plug for that poor neglected officer of the watch, on every starbase out there. This guy needs to give more than 5 fleet marks every 20 hours.
Does your data show that this guy is ever used?
^^^
Agreed. yes, the missions are VERY simple/quick; but 5 FM is a woefully small reward when - for just 10,000 CXP (once you have one or more Commendation commendation categories at T4) - one gets 75-100 FM; and Doffing honestly ISN'T all that time intensive for the most part.
I'd say 20 to 50 FM for the Fleet dallies would be more in line then the pitiful 5. Again, it's a once evry 20 hour mission; so it's not like they can be massively 'farmed (even as more Holdings get added to the game.) Players have to travel to the holding (and some will take more time to get to than others as Holdings are added); and then do the mission. 5 FM currently really does seem inadequate.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
If the majority of fleets in STO are less than 25 "active" players, than shouldn't that be the model Cryptic uses to base fleet mark resources. Looking at the change, I would say it is just the opposite.
I am not ripping on the removal of fleet marks from the foundry so much as I am limiting the ability for those 25 active player fleets from actually progressing at a reasonable rate.\
Most MMOs that I have played that had a leveling guild/fleet system, did not do it via grind, but by a shared EXP system. I am not requesting that here, but those systems allowed for a natural progression of the guild/fleet without requiring members to drop what they are doing and spend their entire game day grinding fleet marks.
Any mission done with fleet members should award a number a fleet marks corresponding increasingly to the difficulty of the missions and the number of fleet members in the party.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Also, I'm sure the amount of players in smaller fleets are greater than larger fleets overall.
Sure there are 300 member fleets, but 150 of them are probably alts. Anyone can say they have a large fleet, but do they, really...
Is your sig getting bigger?:)
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
It's not about large fleet vs small fleet. Before, we had an option as to how we wanted to get FM. I did both Foundry and Fleet missions. I could choose.
I have no choice, I must grind the same boring missions, and so do my fleet mates. Not to mention the Foundry is uselss now; no XP awarding IOR, won't bother to play it. Scalling awards that award less dilithium than before, won't bother with the Foundry.
This one action killed small fleets, seriously put a damper in advancing a toon strictly by Foundry wrappers, killed any need to use the Foundry, and now killed choice.
The thing is you people in small Fleets all want your contributions to count for more towards fleet holding progression then mine does. I don't see that as fair to me or others in my fleet. I work just as hard for my dil and FM and it should be worth the same amount as anyone elses regardless of fleet size. If it doesn't work this way I am penalized in that my individual contributions are worth less towards completing a project then yours would be.
No MMO works that way, some in fact even penalize guilds for not growing through maintenance fees that don't scale for smaller guilds, and also by restricting certain guild holdings until they reach a certain size. MMO means massivley multiplayer, that means you need lots of players, it doesn't mean micro multiplayer where you can stay in 5 man fleet and get everything handed to you.
The thing is you people in small Fleets all want your contributions to count for more towards fleet holding progression then mine does. I don't see that as fair to me or others in my fleet. I work just as hard for my dil and FM and it should be worth the same amount as anyone elses regardless of fleet size. If it doesn't work this way I am penalized in that my individual contributions are worth less towards completing a project then yours would be.
No MMO works that way, some in fact even penalize guilds for not growing through maintenance fees that don't scale for smaller guilds, and also by restricting certain guild holdings until they reach a certain size. MMO means massivley multiplayer, that means you need lots of players, it doesn't mean micro multiplayer where you can stay in 5 man fleet and get everything handed to you.
??? Eh?
I thought this thread was about removing the marks that effect everyone, big fleets and little?
What have I missed?
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
The thing is you people in small Fleets all want your contributions to count for more towards fleet holding progression then mine does. I don't see that as fair to me or others in my fleet. I work just as hard for my dil and FM and it should be worth the same amount as anyone elses regardless of fleet size. If it doesn't work this way I am penalized in that my individual contributions are worth less towards completing a project then yours would be.
You do realize that those in smaller fleets will have to work either harder then you or longer to realise the same progress, do you?
Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
1. Fleets under 25 are going to have a hard time completing projects = by design.
2. We will be adding more Fleet Marks, just not on Foundry missions. We will be making several changes up until the May update in order to bring Fleet Mark earning back in line: including reclassifying the difference between Events and Fleet Actions, Adjusting (increasing/decreasing) Fleet Marks with a focus on giving more Fleet Marks in Fleet Based Events, Possibly merging Fleets, Possibly offering other incentives for Small Fleets.
3. Data shows, most small Fleets are far more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks. There is need for both, but more need right now for Dilithium than Fleet Marks - thus today's change. More Fleet Marks are coming - just not in Foundry play.
1- Basically saying yet again, "it's not a bug, it's a feature." Never once has Cryptic though to even consider the fact that playing in a large fleet isn't for everyone.
2- Removing the fleet mark rewards before you had a suitable replacement ready to go is quite simply, stupid. You have removed a steady source of obtaining fleet marks and replaced it with the nothing more than the promise of "yeah, we'll get to it when we decide to." Not cool...not cool at all.
3- The need for more dilithium...you mean that resource that you neutered in the last great patch under the premise of "you can actually get more with these changes!" Which, by the way, is not true. I'm still earning the same amount of the purple rocks doing what I've always done.
Once again, we've been smacked with another snap decision that's left us standing in the mud until someone can come up with another grind-fest to replace what was a fun and relatively easy way to earn fleet marks.
The thing is you people in small Fleets all want your contributions to count for more towards fleet holding progression then mine does. I don't see that as fair to me or others in my fleet. I work just as hard for my dil and FM and it should be worth the same amount as anyone elses regardless of fleet size. If it doesn't work this way I am penalized in that my individual contributions are worth less towards completing a project then yours would be.
No MMO works that way, some in fact even penalize guilds for not growing through maintenance fees that don't scale for smaller guilds, and also by restricting certain guild holdings until they reach a certain size. MMO means massivley multiplayer, that means you need lots of players, it doesn't mean micro multiplayer where you can stay in 5 man fleet and get everything handed to you.
Massively Multiplayer denotes the total number of people supported for playing the game and relates in no manner to the number of players in any given guild, clan, or fleet. Once again you butcher and carve definitions to fit your argument. It just doesn't work.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Also, I'm sure the amount of players in smaller fleets are greater than larger fleets overall.
Sure there are 300 member fleets, but 150 of them are probably alts. Anyone can say they have a large fleet, but do they, really...
The fleets I am in have been restriciting alts and are constantly booting inactive people to make room for more new people due to always being at the 500 man limit and wanting let new people share in having a developed starbase. Some people have an alt or 2 but most don't keep them in the Fleet to keep room open, we have to use custom chat channels and voice servers a lot because so many people are in the fleet but often not in the fleet on the character they are currently playing.
Cryptic please don't listen to all these complainers. Of course all the people that are against it are going to be complaining the loudest and most on forums, but fact is most players aren't complaining here and don't really have a problem with these changes.
Both my Fed and KDF fleets are close to 500 members and most are not active on the forums, and from what I have seen of other Fleets this size it is similar with them.
From what I hear from everyone on Fleet chat and teamspeak none of them are complaining or care I assume this is similar with many other fleets. The mostly silient majority does not mind these changes and are ok with it, don't let the loud angry minority bully you into giving them their exploits back. These changes were the right thing to do for the foundry and for the Fleet Event system (maybe we will actually get the queues active again outside of events)
Good grief.
So, yet another 'I'm alright, Jack'
Yes, big fleets are not that affected by this ill-considered change. Small fleets are punitively affected.
And there's a huge logical fallacy in your remarks.
a big fleet has more members than a small fleet, given.......but how many big fleets are there compared to small fleets?
I would bet a considerable sum on there being a lot more......really, really a lot more.
If we compared the number of people in big fleets against the number of people in small fleets, overall, then big fleets would be the minority of players. Just because you're concentrated in one fleet doesn't make you a majority of players.
Consider this thread, the overwhelming number of responses are antipathetic to this change. The vast, overwhelming majority.
Virtually the only ones who don't see the problem are members of the sort of mega fleet you're a part of.
Even then, some posters who are members of big fleets do see the problem. they don't merely look at this as something that affects them directly, instead they realise that this change is affecting the majority of the player base. They have some empathy and understanding of the game as a whole, not just their little corner of it.
We may be small, and small fleets by themselves don't matter much.
However, when there are a lot of them it is (in Janeways words) like being pecked to death by chickens......
.....and the thing about being pecked to death by chickens is that you're still dead.
Comments
Link is below.
Might just be a revolution.
You would assume incorrectly.
I get it, but I don't have to like it.
It's simple. 8K per day encourages alternate accounts. Alternate accounts means people need to spend Zen on extra slots.
I guarantee you they've taken a look at the internal numbers, the % of alts used as Dil farms who sell on the exchange vs. the % of alts doing full content, and worked out they make more money selling slots for alts than they'd make selling refining cap increases.
I really don't think there's anything more to it than that.
So my advice is get an alt, farm some Dil with Doffs, and use the exchange to move your Dil between your accounts as needed. It's the best option we've got.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Then why is my fleet chat and teamspeak silent on this issue. Sorry but that counts for as much as 10, 20 maybe even 30 times as much people as your Fleet likely has. It is the same way on both my KDF and Fed fleets as I am a member of 2 different Fleets around same size, none of them care. Sorry but your small fleet= small amount of players=insignificant minority.
I think I peed myself a little trickle after I read this one.
The fact is most players ARE complaining. Go read your zone chat. They just can't be bothered to interrupt the ridiculous grind for OM, RM, FMs and of course EC to buy keys for the lockboxes to come here and post their thoughts.
Now excuse me while I go change my underwear...
The horse is still in the race. It simply stopped running.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Well then, tell your super leet Cryptic Defense Force fleet to voice their opinion, because so far (especially when combining the closed threads) there are 100+ pages of near universal condemnation. Not to mention the zone chats and Facebook postings.
So your supposedlly 500+ person fleet is fine. Good for you. You guys obviously enjoy grinding the same handful of missions over and over and over and over again. Some of us wanted to do something different, now we can't. To make matters worse, the authors who screamed for these changes will probably see a decrease in foundry usage since there is no incentive to use the foundry now (not even to level alternate toons).
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Again you assume. Silence does not necessarily mean agreement. We've also established it never fit the definition of exploit but keep weaving your sutures of misinformation into the Frankenstein of lies, spin doctor.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
You must be joking right?
Have you seen the last thread before this? Have you even read the posts in this thread.
It's only a small amount of people that are in agreement and they're mostly in large fleets so are not bothered, but this is getting towards the removal of Dil from STF amount of rage that Cryptic ended up backtracking and changed. Other sources too are capturing this negativity (except Massively ofc) so not sure where your coming from.
How do you know it's a silent majority that's happy with the changes?
I'm all for discussion and standing up for your side, but when you brush away pages and pages of people posting and then seem to have your own metrics saying people are happy with the changes, then I have to say wow...
Fleets are more than just numbers. Fleets are social groups, however small or large, usually clustered around a common interest or goal. We may not want to be a large, faceless corporation with as many faceless minions as we can spam recruit. We want to be a loyal team of close friends without losing a decent avenue of access to group benefits. We know it will take more effort or time for smaller fleets, but that does not mean it should be difficult or take long enough to leave the fleet discouraged or broken.
The problem now is the game design forces a player to focus their time and energy on either individual progression (reputation) or group progression (fleet stuff). As a small fleet leader, I see most of my members focusing on individual progression so they can remain competitive before they move on to group progression.
If a fleet member wants the MACO ground and space sets, I can expect they won't contribute much to the fleet for at least a week if they're maxing out their daily dilithium refinement. If that player suddenly decides they want to see how the other reputation sets compare, that length of time without their contributions to the fleet increases dramatically. That only takes into consideration the dilithium contributions they might provide. There is also the loss of fleet mark contributions since they have to spend their time grinding reputation marks to help get the reputation gear instead of working on fleet activities.
We might even work on things together as a fleet, but unless we do the few Cryptic-designated missions that award fleet marks, we get no benefit for the fleet. It should not be this way. We have an automatic Veteran XP buff that benefits teams and helps with leveling. Add an automatic fleet buff that grants 1FM per an amount of XP gained while working on something while teamed with fleet members. Additional fleet marks entering the game are not going to break the game. Rather, I expect it would greatly benefit fleets of all sizes and actually help promote fleet ship module sales.
I posted this in yesterday's thread that was closed, but it still applies. I think Fleet progress should be similar to reputation progress.
Small fleets need goals that are readily obtainable even if they're composed of mostly casual players. Individually, the reputation system does this, but for a fleet, the fleet holdings do not. Time-gate progression if you must, but do not make it harder to obtain the necessary inputs. If anything, make it easier and give fleet leaders controls to limit contributions if they run into problems providing everyone with the opportunity to contribute. Changes like removing an easier source of Fleet Marks put small fleets one step closer to growing discouraged and breaking up. Folks want their T4/T5 fleet gear, and are willing to pay for it if we'd just have an easier road access. What we don't have is more time for more grind.
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No its a small amount of posters from mostly large fleets who all agree with their posters. Most people aren't going to post unless they complain.
Guess what , there are lots of large fleets and most feel the same way. Large fleets=large amounts of players that don't mind these changes.
Have to use your Crowbar of Power to TRIBBLE out an Astral Diamond.
It's not about large fleet vs small fleet. Before, we had an option as to how we wanted to get FM. I did both Foundry and Fleet missions. I could choose.
I have no choice, I must grind the same boring missions, and so do my fleet mates. Not to mention the Foundry is uselss now; no XP awarding IOR, won't bother to play it. Scalling awards that award less dilithium than before, won't bother with the Foundry.
This one action killed small fleets, seriously put a damper in advancing a toon strictly by Foundry wrappers, killed any need to use the Foundry, and now killed choice.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Conjecture.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
I am not ripping on the removal of fleet marks from the foundry so much as I am limiting the ability for those 25 active player fleets from actually progressing at a reasonable rate.\
Most MMOs that I have played that had a leveling guild/fleet system, did not do it via grind, but by a shared EXP system. I am not requesting that here, but those systems allowed for a natural progression of the guild/fleet without requiring members to drop what they are doing and spend their entire game day grinding fleet marks.
I truly hope this finds its way to you. I am taking my time writing it, doing my best not to make it ragey, and to keep it respectable.
To get this out of the way, regarding the fleet mark change, I am angry. I am angry at the Foundry Few (they know who they are) whose egos and entitlement created this whole mess, and I am angry at you for approving the changes that have gutted the acquisition of fleet marks and effectively crippled any chance my fleet has of leveling up our fleet holdings. With that said...
I do understand you wanting to increase the availability to earn dilithium in game. This is not a bad thing, the more dilithium the better. I happen to be one of those players who are sitting on a pile of ore because I hit the refining limit, but I know that there are a lot of players who do not have this issue and support making adjustments to help fill their pockets.
What I, and it seems 99 percent of everyone else, feel was a huge mistake was removing the ability to earn a respectable amount of fleet marks from the game. If you wanted to separate fleet marks from the foundry, ok, but why did you not add them to some other mission?
Fleet Mark/Event Missions
Currently the fleet mark missions such as Federation Fleet Alert, Starbase Fleet Defense, Incursion, Blockade, etc. have gotten stale. There are only so many times a person can do the same thing over and over before they go insane. It?s also not helped that these missions do not pay very well in fleet marks; this is especially true for Starbase Fleet Defense. I would like to suggest the following for your consideration:
1. Double the fleet mark payout. Yes, seriously. People are burnt out on grinding these missions for little to show for it. Make it worth our while again and I would imagine you will see more people playing them.
2. During the Fleet Mark event, increase the fleet mark payout to 2.5 times as much, or more if you were so inclined.
Fleet Action Missions
We currently have a Fleet Action Daily mission that provides 50 Fleet Marks for completing either Halting the Gorn Advance, Klingon Scout Force, or The Big Dig. The mission rotates every few days between those three missions. Again, for your consideration:
1. Change the Fleet Action Daily mission to a Fleet Action Repeatable with a 30 minute cooldown from time of pickup. Reduce or remove the dilithium payout if you feel that is necessary, and have it award 50 Fleet Marks when completed.
2. Add Starbase 24 and Breaking the Planet as eligible missions for the above suggested Fleet Action Repeatable. They are Fleet Actions, why they are not in the rotation for the current daily is a mystery to me.
I really cannot stress to you enough how negatively the current loss of fleet marks will impact my fleet, and I would dare assume a great many other fleets as well. The slow progress we have been making will come to a complete halt unless something is done. I ask you; please increase the ability to earn fleet marks. Please do this now. Not in three months, not in three weeks, but now. Take the servers down for "unscheduled maintenance", make the changes, and people will thank you for correcting a huge error.
Respectfully,
Brian
Sorry but you are in the minority when it comes to fleets. The average fleet size of 25 would not be that low if most people were in massive fleets. You're almost as out of touch as the businessmen behind the decisions.
I like you
Added you to my ever decreasing list...;)
^^^
Agreed. yes, the missions are VERY simple/quick; but 5 FM is a woefully small reward when - for just 10,000 CXP (once you have one or more Commendation commendation categories at T4) - one gets 75-100 FM; and Doffing honestly ISN'T all that time intensive for the most part.
I'd say 20 to 50 FM for the Fleet dallies would be more in line then the pitiful 5. Again, it's a once evry 20 hour mission; so it's not like they can be massively 'farmed (even as more Holdings get added to the game.) Players have to travel to the holding (and some will take more time to get to than others as Holdings are added); and then do the mission. 5 FM currently really does seem inadequate.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Sure there are 300 member fleets, but 150 of them are probably alts. Anyone can say they have a large fleet, but do they, really...
Any mission done with fleet members should award a number a fleet marks corresponding increasingly to the difficulty of the missions and the number of fleet members in the party.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Is your sig getting bigger?:)
The thing is you people in small Fleets all want your contributions to count for more towards fleet holding progression then mine does. I don't see that as fair to me or others in my fleet. I work just as hard for my dil and FM and it should be worth the same amount as anyone elses regardless of fleet size. If it doesn't work this way I am penalized in that my individual contributions are worth less towards completing a project then yours would be.
No MMO works that way, some in fact even penalize guilds for not growing through maintenance fees that don't scale for smaller guilds, and also by restricting certain guild holdings until they reach a certain size. MMO means massivley multiplayer, that means you need lots of players, it doesn't mean micro multiplayer where you can stay in 5 man fleet and get everything handed to you.
??? Eh?
I thought this thread was about removing the marks that effect everyone, big fleets and little?
What have I missed?
You do realize that those in smaller fleets will have to work either harder then you or longer to realise the same progress, do you?
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
One line at a time..XD
1- Basically saying yet again, "it's not a bug, it's a feature." Never once has Cryptic though to even consider the fact that playing in a large fleet isn't for everyone.
2- Removing the fleet mark rewards before you had a suitable replacement ready to go is quite simply, stupid. You have removed a steady source of obtaining fleet marks and replaced it with the nothing more than the promise of "yeah, we'll get to it when we decide to." Not cool...not cool at all.
3- The need for more dilithium...you mean that resource that you neutered in the last great patch under the premise of "you can actually get more with these changes!" Which, by the way, is not true. I'm still earning the same amount of the purple rocks doing what I've always done.
Once again, we've been smacked with another snap decision that's left us standing in the mud until someone can come up with another grind-fest to replace what was a fun and relatively easy way to earn fleet marks.
Massively Multiplayer denotes the total number of people supported for playing the game and relates in no manner to the number of players in any given guild, clan, or fleet. Once again you butcher and carve definitions to fit your argument. It just doesn't work.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
The fleets I am in have been restriciting alts and are constantly booting inactive people to make room for more new people due to always being at the 500 man limit and wanting let new people share in having a developed starbase. Some people have an alt or 2 but most don't keep them in the Fleet to keep room open, we have to use custom chat channels and voice servers a lot because so many people are in the fleet but often not in the fleet on the character they are currently playing.
Good grief.
So, yet another 'I'm alright, Jack'
Yes, big fleets are not that affected by this ill-considered change. Small fleets are punitively affected.
And there's a huge logical fallacy in your remarks.
a big fleet has more members than a small fleet, given.......but how many big fleets are there compared to small fleets?
I would bet a considerable sum on there being a lot more......really, really a lot more.
If we compared the number of people in big fleets against the number of people in small fleets, overall, then big fleets would be the minority of players. Just because you're concentrated in one fleet doesn't make you a majority of players.
Consider this thread, the overwhelming number of responses are antipathetic to this change. The vast, overwhelming majority.
Virtually the only ones who don't see the problem are members of the sort of mega fleet you're a part of.
Even then, some posters who are members of big fleets do see the problem. they don't merely look at this as something that affects them directly, instead they realise that this change is affecting the majority of the player base. They have some empathy and understanding of the game as a whole, not just their little corner of it.
We may be small, and small fleets by themselves don't matter much.
However, when there are a lot of them it is (in Janeways words) like being pecked to death by chickens......
.....and the thing about being pecked to death by chickens is that you're still dead.