What makes your opinion more valid than anothers that you judge them? Someone could make a mirror judgement about your playstyle and it's inferiority to what they prefer to do. If anything yourfavored types of missions are already givenspecial treatment with the spotlight... is that not enough or do you feel it is a zero sum system which only one point of view candominate.
IDIC
I'm not judging anyone, just simply stating my opinion. I think people should be rewarded for playing story missions, because actual effort is required to play these missions. Grind missions are only there to accomplish one thing, farm something. EC, Dilithium, Fleet Marks, or Accolades. I'm not totally opposed to these types of missions, but I don't think they should be rewarded the same as story missions.
Cryptic has the right to do whatever they wish to do with your account or stuff. The EULA states that they can ban anyone for any or no reason without further explanation. I'm pretty sure the same is true for the foundry. Also you signed that anything you create in the foundry is owned by Cryptic. To this end, they can do whatever they want to do with their property. Delete, rewrite, publish, make official, use parts of it...
"TRIBBLE" should be judged on it's crapness
"exploits" should be judged depending whether they misuse or abuse any particular element or combination thereof.
Cryptic has the right to determine whether something falls into the exploit category or not.
As a general thing.
I don't get the people who try so hard to not play this game. There are plenty of short story missions out there that qualify for IOR. In the Custom search you are able to search on average completion time. If you want a short mission use that to search.
The only difference between BOFF Grinders and these qualified missions is that people go can complete them by doing absolutely nothing. They still take the same amount of time. There is still a 30 min cooldown on the IOR repeatable. You still get the same rewards.
In one you play the game, in another you don't. Wouldn't actually playing the game be more fun then going AFK for 15-20 mins?
I have to agree with you here. While I fully support the ability to play a short mission in order to complete the daily I DO NOT support the idea of missions where you go afk while your BOFFs do all the work for you. I understand that some people don't have much time to spare and can't do FA or STFs and for them, short missions are an asset. However going AFK while your NPCs do all the work for you is absurd. If you're time is that limited perhaps you shouldn't play at all.
I'm not judging anyone, just simply stating my opinion. I think people should be rewarded for playing story missions, because actual effort is required to play these missions. Grind missions are only there to accomplish one thing, farm something. EC, Dilithium, Fleet Marks, or Accolades. I'm not totally opposed to these types of missions, but I don't think they should be rewarded the same as story missions.
Agreed. If a player takes the time to go through a 30 - 60 minute long story mission as opposed to a 15 minute grinder they SHOULD get a little something extra. I was under the impression that this was already in place and that the longer a mission took the better the loot got. I did a mission the other day that took me 45 minutes and I got a purple MKX drop out of it. Perhaps they should bump that to purple MKXI for longer story content.
My role play group we were role playing in Star Trek Online long before the Foundry was in the game. We simply used the interior stages that the game already provided and used the in-game dice rolling emote to solve problem solving task in the story. We were able to have cross-faction stories using the various elements that were in the game at the time.
With the Foundry we adapted our role playing techniques to that system.
When we started using the "Officer Daily Report" missions, it was almost 1 year after it was in the game. Granted the Foundry was not functional from about July 2011 to about January 2012.
However, we created our stories down to a scene level or 5 minute scenes because it was a good technique for a playing group with people that did not have time to sit through long missions. Also, a 5 page screenplay which has a running time of about 5 minutes takes around 2 hours to produce at a cost of 2,500 dilithium.
One of the benefits we have in our missions is that the writer/producer of the story is right there when the story is played. So, the producer actually sees what the other players are doing in the mission. So, our stories are adpated to the specific group of players.
As far as rewards for grinds, it was a token gift to get 1440 dil for doing an 1 hour grind where you had to do 3 stories with in 1 hour of time. I never fully understood how people were abusing this system, since the cooldown to do the event again was 24 hours.
An STF or PVP event you can make significantly more than that in a 1 hour grind with no cool down that spans a 24 hour duration of time.
However, for my group we still use the Foundry, we just do not use the Officer Daily Report mission anymore because there is no reason to do the mission other than pride.
For the players that do not use the PVE and PVP queue to grind, and for the players who mainly do Exploration missions, and the players who mainly grind using the Duty Officer System, the Officer daily report combined with the event was a good alternative.
Where the player had a choice to choose what method of grind to play on a daily basis that offered a good change of pace so they do not "burn-out" from boredom, now there is no choice.
I think what compounds the whole issue with the Foundry changes for me is that they have not posted any written specifications on what a story needs to have to meet the minimum qualifications. I think this is what fuels the problem more than it minimizes it.
I do not see what problems the new changes were designed to correct has affected.
This is sort of why I do not see the point to your argument here. What are you trying to do here?
My opinion is not secret. The Foundry was made by Cryptic for users to create content, but people are forgetting it was made for a very specific content: story content. Players complained about the Defend the Sector missio s that are in the game, and now other players are creating the exact same grinds and reaping the rewards that are meant for story stuff. If I'm wrong, Spotlight missions would feature grinders. They don't grinding and farming is not in the spirit of the Foundry's original intent: not to Cryptic, and not to me.
That being said, removing rewards is not the solution, neither is reducing them. Cryptic is doing exactly what they ought to do by eliminating grindong and exploitation of the Foundry. Their method is not ideal, but the result is fine.
Indeed, it was created for a purpose of adding player stories and now people think of it as like a get-rich-quick scheme.
IMHO, I think that the majority of these problems would go away if NPC drops only occur within approved missions, just like how the Foundry Daily was changed to reward upon completing approved missions.
At the same time accolade grinding can still be in, since it won't change kill counts.
I think some of the grinding might go away once they add Fleet Marks to PvP like they talked about. Because I find it much faster to get Dilithium in PvP maps, only takes 30 minutes to get your daily refine limit. EC Grinders, oh well.
I think all foundry missions should be time limited to 30 minutes maximum.
Its a great way to equalize every kind of mission against each other and ensure that every player will not waste time regardless of what type of mission they choose -- freeing people from a need to do specific missions or to grump against ones they don't like.
That would ensure that there's almost nothing left besides grinders/combat sims. :-/
Your solution reminds me of that line from Rush's line "The Trees," where because of the complaining, "equality" was enforced by "hatchet, axe, and saw." Not a real solution, I don't think.
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That would ensure that there's almost nothing left besides grinders/combat sims. :-/
Your solution reminds me of that line from Rush's line "The Trees," where because of the complaining, "equality" was enforced by "hatchet, axe, and saw." Not a real solution, I don't think.
Brevity is the heart of wit! And besides one of the best stories I've read was one by Neil Gaiman about a cat. It was very short, but heart rending. No reason why people can't judiciously edit and/or cut into smaller pieces. I think one resistance to spotlight missions is no one wants to get trapped in someone's long winded Great American Novel.
30 minutes is long enough for a tale and short enough that even if it sucks, it wasn't that wasted.
Brevity is the heart of wit! And besides one of the best stories I've read was one by Neil Gaiman about a cat. It was very short, but heart rending. No reason why people can't judiciously edit and/or cut into smaller pieces. I think one resistance to spotlight missions is no one wants to get trapped in someone's long winded Great American Novel.
30 minutes is long enough for a tale and short enough that even if it sucks, it wasn't that wasted.
You have to remmeber that the people playing the missions are all different. Some have uberleet gear and will crush through everything while spamming through dialogue and others will take things a lot slower and look for "side quests".
I have a mission that I can finish in 20 minutes but one guy mailed me and said it took him 2 hours because he explored the sets and talked to all the extra NPCs. How do you measure the time now?
If you'd like to create another thread that is not going to cause flaming to occur (I mean, look at the title -- what do you expect?) with a better approach, feel free. And before this thread goes down the path I know it's going to go down on, /thread -Brandon
Challenge Accepted
A thread was started regarding the removal of rewards from the Foundry system.
I fully understand that there will be people who agree or disagree, but I believe that this idea merits some serious discussion.
IOR used to provide 1440 Dilithium , once a day for 3 missions.
This made the reward for playing Foundry not at all comparable to other places in the game.
Fleet Marks were added.
In a system that both requires an inordinate amount of Fleet Marks for progression, and where the clickie exploit (which was apparently our fault for not reporting it enough), this became a small daily source of FM for many people.
In order to both fix the clickies, and I believe inject both Dilithium and Fleet Marks into the player base, the IOR was changed to now just 1 mission, with the new addition of qualified 15 minute missions, repeatable every 30 minutes.
This is a grinders dream.
This is absolutely the opposite of what Dan Stahl, Brandon and all the Devs claim the Foundry was created for.
IF rewards are going to stay in the Foundry, I suggest the following.
Investigate Officer Reports should be returned to a daily repeatable, with a reward of 1440 Dilithium, and Fleet Marks.
Spotlight missions should have some sort of reward attached to them beyond the IOR daily. A random item box, which should include up to Level appropriate Very Rare Gear.
This is my attempt to create this discussion with a better approach.
Edit: Much better, thank you I'll be passing this thread along to Stahl directly. Keep it civil, keep it constructive, keep it concise. Your feedback will be heard, whether someone posts that they are opposed or even have their own ideas -- we want to hear it all. -Brandon
I think they should just remove the Fleet Mark reward all together. What should be rewarded in the Foundry is just a higher drop rate of Anomalies. Since, a player can take the anamolies and use their ships laboratory to exchange anomalies for 250 dilithium or 500 dilithium. That is really all the reward you should need. And they should just allowed a random drop of a strange alien artifact for Foundry missions.
So, even if a player grinds the Foundry, which I think is going to occur no matter what system is implace here. This method would be better because it requires you to work for the dilithium beyond the story.
Since a starbase allows you to convert commendation points for Fleet Marks there is really no reason for the Foundry to reward Fleet Marks. I think to that if the story does reward dilithium then it should only reward about 5 dilithium, which is what a Duty officer mission rewards on average.
If people are really using the Foundry for story driven content I think that 5 dilithium per mission no matter how long it takes is plenty reward. So, if a person has to produce story that is 15 minute in length or a 15 page screenplay that means a player can reasonably get 3 missions done an hour or 15 dilihtium. 15 x 24 = 360 dilithium ore a day. I think the daily event should reward just like the Strange New World task does. 1440 dilithium with a cooldown of 24 hours. The hourly event does not need to reward dilithium or fleet marks.
The hourly event should only reward a higher drop rate of anomalies. This would benefit people crafting items more, but there is still work involved in the grind. I think people who are abusing the grind with the FOundry and other STO activities or events are doing so because they are lazy.
If you put some work into the grind where you have to make things as I have described, then that may prove to much work for the short-time and lazy player who wants free stuff.
I think the big problem with these rewards and the lack there of is the whole game economy as I've already mentioned to Mr. Stahl the other day. There are huge dilithium sinks in the game now making it very difficult for a lot of players to contribute to completing fleet starbase/embassy missions and such.
So much so that when these opportunities with quick ways to get some dilithium presents themselves everyone acts on them in a small chance they could actually be able to enjoy the game more by exploiting them while it lasts. I know players who created dozens and dozens of characters only for this sole reason, to exploit the daily missions. Which I think is wrong. And I get that Cryptic want to stop this abuse of this system. But I don't feel it is the right way to go as it also punishes everyone else.
A better solution would be that you would find a way to set characters on a longer cool down on these missions if the characters are only used for this purpose and not doing other missions, levelling up. That at least 5 (or some other amount that Cryptic feels more appropriate) other normal missions has to be completed before the mission cool down ends or something along that line.
But the problem is, that I keep hearing a lot about, is that many feel they have to sacrifice their job, family and friends to be able to keep up with the current game economy even in the slightest way, especially now when there are huge sinks everywhere. So that is why I'm passing this along also here in the forums.
I have a mission that I can finish in 20 minutes but one guy mailed me and said it took him 2 hours because he explored the sets and talked to all the extra NPCs. How do you measure the time now?
Doesn't the computer already measure the time? That's how this new thing works right?
I understand people willing to keep their easy and almost unlimited dilithium and marks rewards, but the current 30 minutes CD and the 15 mins requirement is a clear sign sent to players: play AFK missions.
I'm using those tricks, to help my fleet, i admit it. I'm not proud of that but i'll do it as long as it exists. I think the only way to stop that is a 20h CD. It won't stop grinding missions, but at least there will be other opportunities to choose other missions, and people may even get back to STFs to farm, which is good for the game.
I'd like all discussion on the topic which you posted about, which is what is being discussed in here (rewards, conflict, etc.), to be contained in one place so that the devs I am forwarding all sides of feedback to have one, concise place to read such feedback. Thanks for understanding.
EDIT: Again, I'm passing this thread along directly to Stahl, so it will help keep everything in one place. Please remember to keep it constructive, concise, and flame/ trolling free
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
I dont really see how "passing" a 20+ page to someone who is already as busy as Dan Stahl is going to help anybody. Maybe if you made him a summary?
I was a gold subber, now silver. Been waiting for foundry improvements and yada yada. I assume Ive still got my 8 slots my gold sub bought me before I have to buy more separately. I started work on one mission, and mothballed it. I want to use my slots for quality stories that play for an hour on average.
But if the grinders want grinders, I and many others could whip up nifty 15 minute grinders that Cryptic can take and add to the cluster missions. Thats where we need to steer the mindless grinders, to the clusters. Brandon can run those contests faster than spotlighted contests and approve 5 well made grinders per contest. Quality spotlighted missions should pay out better stuff, but give UGC cluster grinders good stuff too. My only condition is if my quickie mission is chosen by Cryptic, take it off my hands and give me my foundry slot back. A dilithium reward would be sweet too, but at the very least authors shouldnt be out anything. I know authors tightly guard all their precious babies, but if you make a quick cluster grinder, and your spelling and grammar were polished the first time, who cares about getting it back to tweak it or add more polish or whatever changes. I know some have already made quickies for quickie sake, but thats on them for wasting a foundry slot.
Under my player review system only getting general rewards added to approved quality content, missions over 15 min average complete time could be for the foundry sector for players who value story, and 15 min or less missions could be placed in the clusters where grinders want a quick payoff. That way anything approved for foundry sector, players know missions approved to go there are quality story content that could be any length and wouldnt even have to search for certain tags, they could trust the story was decent length and reviewed and approved for that sector.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Dude.... look at what the Devs have told us about what the DEVS think it's for.... Try looking at this from their point of view.
The Devs created the spotlights cecause the Devs think the Spotlights are the best stuff the Foundry has to offer. The Devs killed console clickies because the Devs felt they were an exploit.
What do you think is going to be the end result here?
There is room for both and everyone can be happy getting what they want from the tool. Everyone pays in some form to play the game and all its content. The devs job is to keep them playing the game. Why is it so hard to let people get rewarded for playing the missions they choose to play? If it's 15 minute killing or 60 minutes of dialog... who does it hurt to let each player choose what they want to play?
I don't care if the devs intent was originally to create stories (I'm personally of the belief that it was for user created missions to be made whether in-depth story or otherwise. I was here for foundry beta and even dabbled with it.) The foundry has become more than that and has more players because it is more than story missions. The game didn't start out being a commodity grindfest either but it's changed into that by those same devs. Who is to say the foundry can't evolve like it has?
I think we have to realize everyone plays for different reasons and it's up to cryptic to keep them playing and spending money. It is a business after all. This also means keeping the majority happy even if a few don't like it. I think if anyone has any real legitimate reason for how it hurts their ability to play the game then step forward. The simple fact is it doesn't affect anyone but the person playing the mission at hand and if that person is getting what they want out of it so be it.
I do understand people who write long missions to see their work appreciated but this doesn't discount other content. It's like when a person makes an art display... one persons art is another persons trash. I think optimally both parties need to co-exist and the best solution is to have a mission sorter like hippiejon has suggested.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
I do understand people who write long missions to see their work appreciated but this doesn't discount other content. It's like when a person makes an art display... one persons art is another persons trash. I think optimally both parties need to co-exist and the best solution is to have a mission sorter like hippiejon has suggested.
I just want to say that I'm a person that likes what I like. I don't begrudge others their bliss, whatever it is unless it's truly hurting other people. Nothing I've seen in the foundry is harming anyone, but there are some posts in this thread that make me shiver! I don't have a lot of time in big chunks so I like short stuff, i have kids to deal with. If all I have to choose is what someone else thinks I should do you'll either not like the result or I'll go somewhere else to play games, and there are a lot of games out there! Too many for me to play!
I don't get the people who try so hard to not play this game. There are plenty of short story missions out there that qualify for IOR. In the Custom search you are able to search on average completion time. If you want a short mission use that to search.
I think it's the exact opposite. I think people are trying to get the most of their time so they can move on to other content and maybe get some enjoyment in. People who grind are usually playing the game longer than those that don't. It's a need for resources that precipitates the grind. I grind and play the game for on avg 4 to 5 hrs a day and sometimes longer and I still don't collect all the resources I need to for all the various components. Yes, I chose to have a lifetime account with 15 toons and a household starbase with my partner that doesn't have fleet leaders restricting the provisions I can have. There are many others in the same boat. It's not because we don't want to play the game we just need xx number of widgets to move our characters forward and don't want people controlling what we can and cannot have in game for our hard work. I would love the grinding to come to an end but it doesn't seem the game is headed in that direction.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
I'm basically done with this topic. As far as I'm concerned, Cryptic basically made this mess by providing rewards that favored short missions, that favored combat missions, that encouraged grinding, and which weren't inline with the basic spirit of the Foundry. They can now decide how to fix it.
For my part, if it seems like there is a demand for story missions, I will continue making them. If not, I will devote my time elsewhere. I spend a lot of time on my Foundry missions, and I do it for free, and really for very little payback. That time can easily be devoted to other pursuits, which are arguably more worthwhile, and which have a higher likelihood of providing a return on the time invested. For now I am taking a wait and see attitude and not devoting any time to the Foundry.
One thing is clear: this whole grinder saga has badly hurt the Foundry, have no doubt about it. It's in a much worse state than before the reward changes.
The grinders* won't give a damn if a large number of experienced Foundry authors stop making missions, they don't really care about anything except getting their next shiny on their Starbase. However, people who enjoyed the Foundry for what it was definitely suffer if that happens.
*Note: A grinder is not synonymous with someone who enjoys combat missions. They are different types of people entirely.
I know this thread will be moved but I still have the right to free speeh and excersice fully and respectfully:
Please separate the Foundry missions with TWO tabs: STORY content and PLAYER based content.
Why should we all be punished by the few elitist foundry authors who complained a few days ago prompting massive Foundry changes. Face it most people like short and sweet content...still leave the stories for those who care...don't shut down the majority for the sake of those few complainers. Don't you realize you are making this game harsher and unplayable for the rest of us. Compromise but don't change what was there 2 weeks ago for the sake of pleasing the few. Dont make this an elitist game since most of us come to a virtual life to forget about the "real" elitist that control everything in real life. FAIR IS FAIR.
There is no return to some idyllic, halcyon time when few played the foundry and it was the plaything of only a handful of authors. Although OP's idea would be a great way to shrink the Foundry's profile and use.
It's obvious Cryptic wants to expand the number of people creating and the number of people using the Foundry and the 30min repeatable is a definite step in the right direction.
I will be honest: I absolutely hate season 7. The last IOR change mostly made up for how bad I think Cryptic screwed the game with S7. Removing it would remove a major economic fix and a major incentive to even look at the Foundry.
Personally, as a Foundry author myself, I do not feel threatened by anyone's amateur, professional, or hobbyist work be they novels, mechanics exercises or just an RP zone. None should be censored, none should cater only to my egocentric likes -- although once published they will most certainly be judged by the players-at-large!
Utimately, I'm not entirely sure what the OP is truly looking for, but it seems to me that OP is willing to burn down the game in return for some kind short-term guaranteed recognition scheme.
It's ridiculously selfish.
What solution I do find to be equitable, is an improvement to the UI -- in addition to even further enhancing Foundry mission rewards (which was someone else's idea but I thought it was brilliant).
Let's face it, many of the older systems in the game are ignored and left half-finished. CXP is one of those. Categories for missions should fall under one or more CXP types (diplomacy, science, etc.) Authors should be able to choose 1 main CXP type that their mission would fall under (though should be given the option of up to 3 secondary types). Only the main category would factor into the reward. Players can search for missions by CXP type and be rewarded a token amount of CXP (the main CXP tag designated by the author) upon mission completion, should the mission be "qualified" by the system.
* tie mission categories to CXP for tagging and additional play rewards.
* reinforces two in-game systems by linking them together
* uses static "Trek" categories for player mission labeling (should be easier to program instead of dealing with inconsistent player labels)
* provides additional rewards for using the Foundry system (always a plus, even though CXP doesn't really mean much)
Problems
Admittedly some categories might have to be re-labelled to make sense, like say, changing Development for "RP" -- or just outright adding additional labels for those special cases.
I do not know how hard the programming on this would be, though it seems to be a simple, elegant solution that can bolster the player experience of STO instead of tearing it down, resorting to elitist cabals or increasing exclusivity to the game.
It seem like the real reason behind all of this was not about a assumed cheat or exploit, it was about certian people didnt like that a grinder was more popluar and had more playes than any mission they ever made.
And so they blackmaled cryptic into Nerfing them. And I say Blackmaled beacuse there were also posts from these authors saying that they would pull thier missions and never contribute again as long as the "exploit" was open.
So now after they have gotten their way. The AFK mission appear and they have a whole other crusade to go after now. It is starting to look like the only missions they want on the Foundry are ones that they approve of and nothing else.
I can attest to the above and seen the same elitist posts and threads....
Please take the feedback from all the "real" players NOT just the few.
i Know This Thread Will Be Moved But I Still Have The Right To Free Speeh And Excersice Fully And Respectfully:
Please Separate The Foundry Missions With Two Tabs: Story Content And Player Based Content.
Why Should We All Be Punished By The Few Elitist Foundry Authors Who Complained A Few Days Ago Prompting Massive Foundry Changes. Face It Most People Like Short And Sweet Content...still Leave The Stories For Those Who Care...don't Shut Down The Majority For The Sake Of Those Few Complainers. Don't You Realize You Are Making This Game Harsher And Unplayable For The Rest Of Us. Compromise But Don't Change What Was There 2 Weeks Ago For The Sake Of Pleasing The Few. Dont Make This An Elitist Game Since Most Of Us Come To A Virtual Life To Forget About The "real" Elitist That Control Everything In Real Life. Fair Is Fair.
I used to love to play the game when you character moved forward in game through story progression... I love the story. The game though has shifted to a commodities driven progression now and so I had to change as well. When I play story missions now either foundry or otherwise I almost feel frustrated because I 'm not grinding to progress my character and so it it loses its joy for me. It's like being on yahoo sports at work when you should be working. You get a feeling you should be doing something else. So when I'm sign on STO I feel compelled to level up my character instead of enjoying the story. To avoid this frustration, when I want story I have started playing the M.E. Trilogy where I can still get multi-player but also get to progress my characters multiple ways through story and not by grinding. I'm not leaving STO but I do divide my time now with other entertainment. I think the solution to the foundry problem involves more than just defining what the foundry is here for but looking at the overall game and the behaviors the current system encourages or as I see it demands from its players.
No one is going to be happy with everything but we shouldn't make changes to things where we can't show direct harm to players. All this will do is create more animosity among the player base. We only need look to the start of season 7 to see the results of those types of changes.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
There is room for both and everyone can be happy getting what they want from the tool. Everyone pays in some form to play the game and all its content. The devs job is to keep them playing the game. Why is it so hard to let people get rewarded for playing the missions they choose to play? If it's 15 minute killing or 60 minutes of dialog... who does it hurt to let each player choose what they want to play?
I don't care if the devs intent was originally to create stories (I'm personally of the belief that it was for user created missions to be made whether in-depth story or otherwise. I was here for foundry beta and even dabbled with it.) The foundry has become more than that and has more players because it is more than story missions. The game didn't start out being a commodity grindfest either but it's changed into that by those same devs. Who is to say the foundry can't evolve like it has?
I think we have to realize everyone plays for different reasons and it's up to cryptic to keep them playing and spending money. It is a business after all. This also means keeping the majority happy even if a few don't like it. I think if anyone has any real legitimate reason for how it hurts their ability to play the game then step forward. The simple fact is it doesn't affect anyone but the person playing the mission at hand and if that person is getting what they want out of it so be it.
I do understand people who write long missions to see their work appreciated but this doesn't discount other content. It's like when a person makes an art display... one persons art is another persons trash. I think optimally both parties need to co-exist and the best solution is to have a mission sorter like hippiejon has suggested.
Um.... not really sure what you're trying to say.... On the surface it sound slike you're trying to say that combat sims and stories are equally valid mission types. That I can agree with.
But, reading closer, you seem to have failed to grasp what I meant by looking at it from the POV of the Devs. It's simple. If AFK Grinders are the best source of both dil and FMs in the entire game... to the devs this indicates a severe gameplay imbalance. This is why they killed console clickies.... There is no free lunch....
As for season 7.... you can put off the grinding indefinately if you want.... there is no hurry.
If AFK Grinders are the best source of both dil and FMs in the entire game.
Any mission that takes 15 minutes isthe best source of dil and fm inthe game. Picking on one format is immaterial and just shows a personal prejudice. Further youare shortshrifting the devs on their profession. They know full well that setting 15min as the minimum is where people are going to go. 15 min shooting spaceships, mobs or spamming F for textboxes. The punchline is that 15min for dil/fm is only a small drop in the bucket in what people need forprogression.
I'm basically done with this topic. As far as I'm concerned, Cryptic basically made this mess by providing rewards that favored short missions, that favored combat missions, that encouraged grinding, and which weren't inline with the basic spirit of the Foundry. They can now decide how to fix it.
For my part, if it seems like there is a demand for story missions, I will continue making them. If not, I will devote my time elsewhere. I spend a lot of time on my Foundry missions, and I do it for free, and really for very little payback. That time can easily be devoted to other pursuits, which are arguably more worthwhile, and which have a higher likelihood of providing a return on the time invested. For now I am taking a wait and see attitude and not devoting any time to the Foundry.
At the moment, I feel the same way. But, I don't write the stories for the plays alone. I may continue to do so for the small amount of players who enjoy feeling like they are in the universe of Star Trek, instead of grinding tokens so that they can fly a Borg cube and make explosions.
I can't help but look at the listings, the FvE que, and a large portion of the player feedback in this thread and think to myself, Why I am making content for this game? Then, I remind myself that I'm not writing stories for this game. Instead I'm writings stories that illustrate what I wish this game had become.
My stories are out of place here. They are misfits.
As I said earlier with the randomized Missions of the day feature, the entire tagging/exploiting could be handled automatically could still retain the improved reward in the foundry.
So what if the
3 random Story heavy missions, eligible for reward, were given out by the diplomat at SB1.
3 random Combat heavy missions, eligible for reward, were given out by some Commander at Sherman's planet starbase.
3 random Excellent rated missions, eligible for reward, were given out by Admiral Quinn at SB1
and finally the 3 completely random (at least 5 ratings, min 20 playtime) missions handed out by the transport pilot guy in Club 47.
So every day, you have 12 different, more or less randomly selected missions which give you improved reward. You can play through the combat missions right away if that is your focus. However, if you still want more stuff, marks and all the you can try out the remaining 9 missions which will most likely feature story to some extent.
With the missions integrated into the game world by giving them to mission givers, the whole process is just more organic and immersive.
If you are not hot about searching for a good mission you don't have to. You just check out the 12 spotlighted for the day. Maybe you still do one for the reward.
Missions not on the missions of the day list for that give day should have no reward at all. But you should still be able to access them through the UI the same way as now.
With the radomization and shorter 24 hour "spotlight" span, the exploit missions would go away for sure.
I fully support the idea of random 24 hour spotlighted missions. I think that sort of thing would be a plus, in addition to UI changes, tagging, reward adjustments, etc.
Any mission that takes 15 minutes isthe best source of dil and fm inthe game. Picking on one format is immaterial and just shows a personal prejudice. Further youare shortshrifting the devs on their profession. They know full well that setting 15min as the minimum is where people are going to go. 15 min shooting spaceships, mobs or spamming F for textboxes. The punchline is that 15min for dil/fm is only a small drop in the bucket in what people need forprogression.
Right.... progression is optional. You don't NEED it..... You seem to have skipped the rest so I'll summarize it again. The Devs killed clickies because they were exploits.
The same arguments you just misspelled horribly were floated around for weeks after the devs killed clickies. They didn't work the first time.
Right.... progression is optional. You don't NEED it..... You seem to have skipped the rest so I'll summarize it again. The Devs killed clickies because they were exploits.
The same arguments you just misspelled horribly were floated around for weeks after the devs killed clickies. They didn't work the first time.
Comments
I'm not judging anyone, just simply stating my opinion. I think people should be rewarded for playing story missions, because actual effort is required to play these missions. Grind missions are only there to accomplish one thing, farm something. EC, Dilithium, Fleet Marks, or Accolades. I'm not totally opposed to these types of missions, but I don't think they should be rewarded the same as story missions.
I have to agree with you here. While I fully support the ability to play a short mission in order to complete the daily I DO NOT support the idea of missions where you go afk while your BOFFs do all the work for you. I understand that some people don't have much time to spare and can't do FA or STFs and for them, short missions are an asset. However going AFK while your NPCs do all the work for you is absurd. If you're time is that limited perhaps you shouldn't play at all.
Agreed. If a player takes the time to go through a 30 - 60 minute long story mission as opposed to a 15 minute grinder they SHOULD get a little something extra. I was under the impression that this was already in place and that the longer a mission took the better the loot got. I did a mission the other day that took me 45 minutes and I got a purple MKX drop out of it. Perhaps they should bump that to purple MKXI for longer story content.
With the Foundry we adapted our role playing techniques to that system.
When we started using the "Officer Daily Report" missions, it was almost 1 year after it was in the game. Granted the Foundry was not functional from about July 2011 to about January 2012.
However, we created our stories down to a scene level or 5 minute scenes because it was a good technique for a playing group with people that did not have time to sit through long missions. Also, a 5 page screenplay which has a running time of about 5 minutes takes around 2 hours to produce at a cost of 2,500 dilithium.
One of the benefits we have in our missions is that the writer/producer of the story is right there when the story is played. So, the producer actually sees what the other players are doing in the mission. So, our stories are adpated to the specific group of players.
As far as rewards for grinds, it was a token gift to get 1440 dil for doing an 1 hour grind where you had to do 3 stories with in 1 hour of time. I never fully understood how people were abusing this system, since the cooldown to do the event again was 24 hours.
An STF or PVP event you can make significantly more than that in a 1 hour grind with no cool down that spans a 24 hour duration of time.
However, for my group we still use the Foundry, we just do not use the Officer Daily Report mission anymore because there is no reason to do the mission other than pride.
For the players that do not use the PVE and PVP queue to grind, and for the players who mainly do Exploration missions, and the players who mainly grind using the Duty Officer System, the Officer daily report combined with the event was a good alternative.
Where the player had a choice to choose what method of grind to play on a daily basis that offered a good change of pace so they do not "burn-out" from boredom, now there is no choice.
I think what compounds the whole issue with the Foundry changes for me is that they have not posted any written specifications on what a story needs to have to meet the minimum qualifications. I think this is what fuels the problem more than it minimizes it.
I do not see what problems the new changes were designed to correct has affected.
This is sort of why I do not see the point to your argument here. What are you trying to do here?
Thank you
Indeed, it was created for a purpose of adding player stories and now people think of it as like a get-rich-quick scheme.
IMHO, I think that the majority of these problems would go away if NPC drops only occur within approved missions, just like how the Foundry Daily was changed to reward upon completing approved missions.
At the same time accolade grinding can still be in, since it won't change kill counts.
I think some of the grinding might go away once they add Fleet Marks to PvP like they talked about. Because I find it much faster to get Dilithium in PvP maps, only takes 30 minutes to get your daily refine limit. EC Grinders, oh well.
Its a great way to equalize every kind of mission against each other and ensure that every player will not waste time regardless of what type of mission they choose -- freeing people from a need to do specific missions or to grump against ones they don't like.
Your solution reminds me of that line from Rush's line "The Trees," where because of the complaining, "equality" was enforced by "hatchet, axe, and saw." Not a real solution, I don't think.
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Brevity is the heart of wit! And besides one of the best stories I've read was one by Neil Gaiman about a cat. It was very short, but heart rending. No reason why people can't judiciously edit and/or cut into smaller pieces. I think one resistance to spotlight missions is no one wants to get trapped in someone's long winded Great American Novel.
30 minutes is long enough for a tale and short enough that even if it sucks, it wasn't that wasted.
You have to remmeber that the people playing the missions are all different. Some have uberleet gear and will crush through everything while spamming through dialogue and others will take things a lot slower and look for "side quests".
I have a mission that I can finish in 20 minutes but one guy mailed me and said it took him 2 hours because he explored the sets and talked to all the extra NPCs. How do you measure the time now?
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
I think they should just remove the Fleet Mark reward all together. What should be rewarded in the Foundry is just a higher drop rate of Anomalies. Since, a player can take the anamolies and use their ships laboratory to exchange anomalies for 250 dilithium or 500 dilithium. That is really all the reward you should need. And they should just allowed a random drop of a strange alien artifact for Foundry missions.
So, even if a player grinds the Foundry, which I think is going to occur no matter what system is implace here. This method would be better because it requires you to work for the dilithium beyond the story.
Since a starbase allows you to convert commendation points for Fleet Marks there is really no reason for the Foundry to reward Fleet Marks. I think to that if the story does reward dilithium then it should only reward about 5 dilithium, which is what a Duty officer mission rewards on average.
If people are really using the Foundry for story driven content I think that 5 dilithium per mission no matter how long it takes is plenty reward. So, if a person has to produce story that is 15 minute in length or a 15 page screenplay that means a player can reasonably get 3 missions done an hour or 15 dilihtium. 15 x 24 = 360 dilithium ore a day. I think the daily event should reward just like the Strange New World task does. 1440 dilithium with a cooldown of 24 hours. The hourly event does not need to reward dilithium or fleet marks.
The hourly event should only reward a higher drop rate of anomalies. This would benefit people crafting items more, but there is still work involved in the grind. I think people who are abusing the grind with the FOundry and other STO activities or events are doing so because they are lazy.
If you put some work into the grind where you have to make things as I have described, then that may prove to much work for the short-time and lazy player who wants free stuff.
Thank you.
So much so that when these opportunities with quick ways to get some dilithium presents themselves everyone acts on them in a small chance they could actually be able to enjoy the game more by exploiting them while it lasts. I know players who created dozens and dozens of characters only for this sole reason, to exploit the daily missions. Which I think is wrong. And I get that Cryptic want to stop this abuse of this system. But I don't feel it is the right way to go as it also punishes everyone else.
A better solution would be that you would find a way to set characters on a longer cool down on these missions if the characters are only used for this purpose and not doing other missions, levelling up. That at least 5 (or some other amount that Cryptic feels more appropriate) other normal missions has to be completed before the mission cool down ends or something along that line.
But the problem is, that I keep hearing a lot about, is that many feel they have to sacrifice their job, family and friends to be able to keep up with the current game economy even in the slightest way, especially now when there are huge sinks everywhere. So that is why I'm passing this along also here in the forums.
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Doesn't the computer already measure the time? That's how this new thing works right?
It works off the average play time.
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
I'm using those tricks, to help my fleet, i admit it. I'm not proud of that but i'll do it as long as it exists. I think the only way to stop that is a 20h CD. It won't stop grinding missions, but at least there will be other opportunities to choose other missions, and people may even get back to STFs to farm, which is good for the game.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
I dont really see how "passing" a 20+ page to someone who is already as busy as Dan Stahl is going to help anybody. Maybe if you made him a summary?
But if the grinders want grinders, I and many others could whip up nifty 15 minute grinders that Cryptic can take and add to the cluster missions. Thats where we need to steer the mindless grinders, to the clusters. Brandon can run those contests faster than spotlighted contests and approve 5 well made grinders per contest. Quality spotlighted missions should pay out better stuff, but give UGC cluster grinders good stuff too. My only condition is if my quickie mission is chosen by Cryptic, take it off my hands and give me my foundry slot back. A dilithium reward would be sweet too, but at the very least authors shouldnt be out anything. I know authors tightly guard all their precious babies, but if you make a quick cluster grinder, and your spelling and grammar were polished the first time, who cares about getting it back to tweak it or add more polish or whatever changes. I know some have already made quickies for quickie sake, but thats on them for wasting a foundry slot.
Under my player review system only getting general rewards added to approved quality content, missions over 15 min average complete time could be for the foundry sector for players who value story, and 15 min or less missions could be placed in the clusters where grinders want a quick payoff. That way anything approved for foundry sector, players know missions approved to go there are quality story content that could be any length and wouldnt even have to search for certain tags, they could trust the story was decent length and reviewed and approved for that sector.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
There is room for both and everyone can be happy getting what they want from the tool. Everyone pays in some form to play the game and all its content. The devs job is to keep them playing the game. Why is it so hard to let people get rewarded for playing the missions they choose to play? If it's 15 minute killing or 60 minutes of dialog... who does it hurt to let each player choose what they want to play?
I don't care if the devs intent was originally to create stories (I'm personally of the belief that it was for user created missions to be made whether in-depth story or otherwise. I was here for foundry beta and even dabbled with it.) The foundry has become more than that and has more players because it is more than story missions. The game didn't start out being a commodity grindfest either but it's changed into that by those same devs. Who is to say the foundry can't evolve like it has?
I think we have to realize everyone plays for different reasons and it's up to cryptic to keep them playing and spending money. It is a business after all. This also means keeping the majority happy even if a few don't like it. I think if anyone has any real legitimate reason for how it hurts their ability to play the game then step forward. The simple fact is it doesn't affect anyone but the person playing the mission at hand and if that person is getting what they want out of it so be it.
I do understand people who write long missions to see their work appreciated but this doesn't discount other content. It's like when a person makes an art display... one persons art is another persons trash. I think optimally both parties need to co-exist and the best solution is to have a mission sorter like hippiejon has suggested.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
I just want to say that I'm a person that likes what I like. I don't begrudge others their bliss, whatever it is unless it's truly hurting other people. Nothing I've seen in the foundry is harming anyone, but there are some posts in this thread that make me shiver! I don't have a lot of time in big chunks so I like short stuff, i have kids to deal with. If all I have to choose is what someone else thinks I should do you'll either not like the result or I'll go somewhere else to play games, and there are a lot of games out there! Too many for me to play!
I think it's the exact opposite. I think people are trying to get the most of their time so they can move on to other content and maybe get some enjoyment in. People who grind are usually playing the game longer than those that don't. It's a need for resources that precipitates the grind. I grind and play the game for on avg 4 to 5 hrs a day and sometimes longer and I still don't collect all the resources I need to for all the various components. Yes, I chose to have a lifetime account with 15 toons and a household starbase with my partner that doesn't have fleet leaders restricting the provisions I can have. There are many others in the same boat. It's not because we don't want to play the game we just need xx number of widgets to move our characters forward and don't want people controlling what we can and cannot have in game for our hard work. I would love the grinding to come to an end but it doesn't seem the game is headed in that direction.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
For my part, if it seems like there is a demand for story missions, I will continue making them. If not, I will devote my time elsewhere. I spend a lot of time on my Foundry missions, and I do it for free, and really for very little payback. That time can easily be devoted to other pursuits, which are arguably more worthwhile, and which have a higher likelihood of providing a return on the time invested. For now I am taking a wait and see attitude and not devoting any time to the Foundry.
One thing is clear: this whole grinder saga has badly hurt the Foundry, have no doubt about it. It's in a much worse state than before the reward changes.
The grinders* won't give a damn if a large number of experienced Foundry authors stop making missions, they don't really care about anything except getting their next shiny on their Starbase. However, people who enjoyed the Foundry for what it was definitely suffer if that happens.
*Note: A grinder is not synonymous with someone who enjoys combat missions. They are different types of people entirely.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
Please separate the Foundry missions with TWO tabs: STORY content and PLAYER based content.
Why should we all be punished by the few elitist foundry authors who complained a few days ago prompting massive Foundry changes. Face it most people like short and sweet content...still leave the stories for those who care...don't shut down the majority for the sake of those few complainers. Don't you realize you are making this game harsher and unplayable for the rest of us. Compromise but don't change what was there 2 weeks ago for the sake of pleasing the few. Dont make this an elitist game since most of us come to a virtual life to forget about the "real" elitist that control everything in real life. FAIR IS FAIR.
In response to this thread:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=537351
I fully agree with:
and this as well:
I can attest to the above and seen the same elitist posts and threads....
Please take the feedback from all the "real" players NOT just the few.
fully Support And Agree As Well!!
I used to love to play the game when you character moved forward in game through story progression... I love the story. The game though has shifted to a commodities driven progression now and so I had to change as well. When I play story missions now either foundry or otherwise I almost feel frustrated because I 'm not grinding to progress my character and so it it loses its joy for me. It's like being on yahoo sports at work when you should be working. You get a feeling you should be doing something else. So when I'm sign on STO I feel compelled to level up my character instead of enjoying the story. To avoid this frustration, when I want story I have started playing the M.E. Trilogy where I can still get multi-player but also get to progress my characters multiple ways through story and not by grinding. I'm not leaving STO but I do divide my time now with other entertainment. I think the solution to the foundry problem involves more than just defining what the foundry is here for but looking at the overall game and the behaviors the current system encourages or as I see it demands from its players.
No one is going to be happy with everything but we shouldn't make changes to things where we can't show direct harm to players. All this will do is create more animosity among the player base. We only need look to the start of season 7 to see the results of those types of changes.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
But, reading closer, you seem to have failed to grasp what I meant by looking at it from the POV of the Devs. It's simple. If AFK Grinders are the best source of both dil and FMs in the entire game... to the devs this indicates a severe gameplay imbalance. This is why they killed console clickies.... There is no free lunch....
As for season 7.... you can put off the grinding indefinately if you want.... there is no hurry.
My character Tsin'xing
Any mission that takes 15 minutes isthe best source of dil and fm inthe game. Picking on one format is immaterial and just shows a personal prejudice. Further youare shortshrifting the devs on their profession. They know full well that setting 15min as the minimum is where people are going to go. 15 min shooting spaceships, mobs or spamming F for textboxes. The punchline is that 15min for dil/fm is only a small drop in the bucket in what people need forprogression.
At the moment, I feel the same way. But, I don't write the stories for the plays alone. I may continue to do so for the small amount of players who enjoy feeling like they are in the universe of Star Trek, instead of grinding tokens so that they can fly a Borg cube and make explosions.
I can't help but look at the listings, the FvE que, and a large portion of the player feedback in this thread and think to myself, Why I am making content for this game? Then, I remind myself that I'm not writing stories for this game. Instead I'm writings stories that illustrate what I wish this game had become.
My stories are out of place here. They are misfits.
So what if the
3 random Story heavy missions, eligible for reward, were given out by the diplomat at SB1.
3 random Combat heavy missions, eligible for reward, were given out by some Commander at Sherman's planet starbase.
3 random Excellent rated missions, eligible for reward, were given out by Admiral Quinn at SB1
and finally the 3 completely random (at least 5 ratings, min 20 playtime) missions handed out by the transport pilot guy in Club 47.
So every day, you have 12 different, more or less randomly selected missions which give you improved reward. You can play through the combat missions right away if that is your focus. However, if you still want more stuff, marks and all the you can try out the remaining 9 missions which will most likely feature story to some extent.
With the missions integrated into the game world by giving them to mission givers, the whole process is just more organic and immersive.
If you are not hot about searching for a good mission you don't have to. You just check out the 12 spotlighted for the day. Maybe you still do one for the reward.
Missions not on the missions of the day list for that give day should have no reward at all. But you should still be able to access them through the UI the same way as now.
With the radomization and shorter 24 hour "spotlight" span, the exploit missions would go away for sure.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
The same arguments you just misspelled horribly were floated around for weeks after the devs killed clickies. They didn't work the first time.
@ Pendra: that idea sounds cool.
My character Tsin'xing
my difficultytyping is not alaughing matter