On the battlecruiser to battleship idea I would make a real world comparison.
In the Delaware river at this moment are two battleships. The Olympia and the New Jersey.
But by the size difference the Olympia would be at best a destroyer by the time the New Jersey sailed. They just move new ships up in scale.
As another example the Frigate was once a pretty big ship, now they are some of the smallest used. Progress marches on.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
and thats exactly how it is with the excelsior and then ambassador. when it was new, the excelsior was a battleship. its an outdated light cruiser in tng. dwelling on the word battleship continues to be silly. it holds no more military weight then the word cruiser does. the galaxy is technically a battleship, because its the largest class, by far, and has the heaviest weapons. if they were going out of their way not to build what is technically a battleship, they screwed up.
for the ppl who insist that the galaxy class is a weak explorer dont think they can be persuaded from any one here, but i remenber a episode were picard left the enterprise for a cover mision and the new capitan was more a military tipe than diplomatic and he was ready for a open war he push the crew to their limits and in Space "not in a shipyard" with the enterprise in move in warp speed from 1 sector to other he star a internal refit moving power from laboratories to weapons made new backup power routes and reinforce hull plating closing outer deck and reinfrocing Structural integrity.
That galaxy was ready to face a full scuadron of galor ships (or more) hiden in the maccalister nebula, now that sound like a crucier that can hold in his own power fire and resistance.
I'm surprised that people cannot get over the terminology or the mindset that even a ship that is not a battleship can sport strong weaponry as a meassure of defense. The Galaxy-Class, even the Ent-D with their mostly civilian crew was armed super heavily. Enough that more warlike points of view (as the last poster said) classified it as a battleship, though this was not the intented function of the ship. It is and always has been - like ANY OTHER starfleet vessel - a multi-mission vessel, doing whatever needs to be done with a strong focus on peaceful missions. Yet, being peaceful does not equal being weak or foolish and I think that is what people don't get or don't want to get. They seem to think that in order to be taken seriously you must go all badass-military, because that's "cool" and everything else is just whimps.
I couldn't have said it better.
I have observed many people on this forum and let's not forget most of Cryptics Devs (Mr. Rivera in particular) having obviously such an opinion. In my perspective this is only the result in not understanding what Star Trek (and especially the Federation and Starfleet) makes different from other Sci Fi universes.
In TNG humanity has become "grown up" and more peaceful (which has been put ad absurdum by the producers/writer of later series and TNG movies), leaving behind greed and the desire for revenge for example.
In my opinion the galaxy Class stands for a peaceful but yet powerful Federation ready to defend itself with the most powerful ships ever built. Thats why i have never understood why they had to indtroduce ships like the Defiant or the Sovereign, they just wheren't needed IMO.
Cryptics devs (and Mr. Rivera in particular) seem not to understand this and treat the Federation/Starfleet more like a standart Sci Fi Humanity which behaves much more like todays militia or some generic Sci fi militia. They obviously didn't catch how things in Star Trek work, which is really sad in my eyes.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I have observed many people on this forum and let's not forget most of Cryptics Devs (Mr. Rivera in particular) having obviously such an opinion. In my perspective this is only the result in not understanding what Star Trek (and especially the Federation and Starfleet) makes different from other Sci Fi universes.
In TNG humanity has become "grown up" and more peaceful (which has been put ad absurdum by the producers/writer of later series and TNG movies), leaving behind greed and the desire for revenge for example.
In my opinion the galaxy Class stands for a peaceful but yet powerful Federation ready to defend itself with the most powerful ships ever built. Thats why i have never understood why they had to indtroduce ships like the Defiant or the Sovereign, they just wheren't needed IMO.
Cryptics devs (and Mr. Rivera in particular) seem not to understand this and treat the Federation/Starfleet more like a standart Sci Fi Humanity which behaves much more like todays militia or some generic Sci fi militia. They obviously didn't catch how things in Star Trek work, which is really sad in my eyes.
Very true.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I have observed many people on this forum and let's not forget most of Cryptics Devs (Mr. Rivera in particular) having obviously such an opinion. In my perspective this is only the result in not understanding what Star Trek (and especially the Federation and Starfleet) makes different from other Sci Fi universes.
In TNG humanity has become "grown up" and more peaceful (which has been put ad absurdum by the producers/writer of later series and TNG movies), leaving behind greed and the desire for revenge for example.
In my opinion the galaxy Class stands for a peaceful but yet powerful Federation ready to defend itself with the most powerful ships ever built. Thats why i have never understood why they had to indtroduce ships like the Defiant or the Sovereign, they just wheren't needed IMO.
Cryptics devs (and Mr. Rivera in particular) seem not to understand this and treat the Federation/Starfleet more like a standart Sci Fi Humanity which behaves much more like todays militia or some generic Sci fi militia. They obviously didn't catch how things in Star Trek work, which is really sad in my eyes.
While a good bit of focus turned darker with DS9 and later shows, there was already some evidence in TNG that things were not as perect as they thought. The very end of the episode where Q sent the Enterprise to the borg has Picard noting to Riker that perhaps Q was right and they needed a kick in the rear because they had gotten complacent.
Enterprise was NOT ready for anything out there. Defiant was an experiment to shoe horn in all the firepower of a big ship into something cheap. . and it failed at the time. Much later did the crew on DS9 make it work and improved on the basic specs as well. Technology evolves.
And because I have done alot of comparing 20/21st century concepts to Star Fleet.
Which is more powerful? A battleship or an aircraft carrier? Prior to WW2 it was assumed a heavy gunned battleship. They learned differently. Maybe the big phaser array on the Galaxy is like the 18" guns of a battleship? Impressive but we can do better by doing it differently.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Maybe the big phaser array on the Galaxy is like the 18" guns of a battleship? Impressive but we can do better by doing it differently.
The Scimitar, Garumba, Galaxy-X all seem to think the Wave Motion Gun is the future of battlefield dominance. And Donatra keeps that philosophy alive in that STF.
Granted Borg Tactical Cubes are all about critting with Plasma torps so there is that.
The Scimitar, Garumba, Galaxy-X all seem to think the Wave Motion Gun is the future of battlefield dominance. And Donatra keeps that philosophy alive in that STF.
Granted Borg Tactical Cubes are all about critting with Plasma torps so there is that.
Be fair. Donatra's ship is a Scimitar. :P
And while it seems cool. They don't have the hitting power to really make them worth it.
On the Dreadnaught I have wished I could slot my spinal weapon to what I have my ship to. Like Borg Anti-proton beams or the like. But is a digression.
I think the malfunction in the game for the Galaxy is that aside from the Miranda it is the only free ship from the series. Want a Nebula, or Excelsior, etc. Buy one. Since they make the purchased ships slightly better than any free ship you get the Galaxy on the short end of the stick. Can I logically argue why it might work like that in the Star Trek universe? Sure we have been having a blast doing just that.
So My question is this, is the Venture that much better than a Galaxy? If so I say reskin one to a Galaxy.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
While a good bit of focus turned darker with DS9 and later shows, there was already some evidence in TNG that things were not as perect as they thought. The very end of the episode where Q sent the Enterprise to the borg has Picard noting to Riker that perhaps Q was right and they needed a kick in the rear because they had gotten complacent.
Enterprise was NOT ready for anything out there. Defiant was an experiment to shoe horn in all the firepower of a big ship into something cheap. . and it failed at the time. Much later did the crew on DS9 make it work and improved on the basic specs as well. Technology evolves.
Basically, yes. Star Trek seems to have been caught in an endless loop of 'well, THAT problem is solved, now humanity is perfect FOREVER!'
And then something kicks their skull in and they have to deal with the twitching aftermath.
Happened with the Borg, happened with stuff on DS9 (which actually showed what happened after Kirk or Picard moralized in a sharp and witty statement, and left that particular star system, never to return), happened in the STO back story. In fact, it happened REPEATEDLY with the Borg. This was why the Defiant was so bad off at the start. It was not a production ship - it was a pathfinder/prototype, and one that had not been adequately tested or revised. Apparently after Wolf 359, Starfleet decided that all the Borg who ever lived were on that one cube and the Borg threat - and all other threats - were destroyed indisputably for all of eternity forevermore. Not like they could have even one more cube... :rolleyes:
While a good bit of focus turned darker with DS9 and later shows, there was already some evidence in TNG that things were not as perect as they thought. The very end of the episode where Q sent the Enterprise to the borg has Picard noting to Riker that perhaps Q was right and they needed a kick in the rear because they had gotten complacent.
Enterprise was NOT ready for anything out there. Defiant was an experiment to shoe horn in all the firepower of a big ship into something cheap. . and it failed at the time. Much later did the crew on DS9 make it work and improved on the basic specs as well. Technology evolves.
The Enterprise -D was capable to face the borg, it was the Crew that wasn't aware of the danger they posed.
If the Enterprise Crew at the first encounter (at J25) would have acted much more forceful and determined, the Borg ship wouldn't have had a chance to adapt to their weapons. Instead of that, Picard called for one conference after another, while facing the deadliest enemy the federation has ever encountered.
Yes you are right, the crew and especially Picard and Riker needed a kick in the TRIBBLE concerning the Borg and some other threads. The ship itself was more than ready especially since it wasn't even made ready for combat, and yet it could almost obliterate half of the Borg cube with one shot.
That's why i would like to see a 3 pack of the Galaxy Class featuring a Enginnering/Tacical/Science version, just like the Vesta/Odyssey/Bortas/Scirmitar and Andorian ship.
dontdrunkimshoots enhanced exploration cruiser retrofit 3 pack
Cryptic could easily make a shipload of money if they would release it, especially since the Galaxy Class is approximately double a popular than all those ships together IMHO.
I just don't understand why Cryptics devs refuse to release such a ship pack, i mean it wouldn't put their beloved Escorts from their throne. It wouldn't be much of work either, since the ship model is already in the game.
On the other hand it would make a lot of displeased people happy by making their favourite ship finally playable and a bit more true to the shows.
...Yet, being peaceful does not equal being weak or foolish and I think that is what people don't get or don't want to get. They seem to think that in order to be taken seriously you must go all badass-military, because that's "cool" and everything else is just whimps.
...
I wish i had more space in my signature to put in this statement...
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
And because I have done alot of comparing 20/21st century concepts to Star Fleet.
Which is more powerful? A battleship or an aircraft carrier? Prior to WW2 it was assumed a heavy gunned battleship. They learned differently. Maybe the big phaser array on the Galaxy is like the 18" guns of a battleship? Impressive but we can do better by doing it differently.
the only obne comparing starships to 20/21st century concepts is you, useing it to try to make a logical hypothetical will not work. first of all everyone has shields, that makes strike craft almost useless, the precise weapons ships have make them completely useless. they also are not fighting in a different medium, air vs water. space fighters are PT boats, not aircraft. same things with subs, theres no surface/below surface, theres just in space.
all energy weapons are basically the same, be them a defiant cannon or a large array. its just a question of each weapons strengths and weaknesses. arrays are not some outdated weapon system, they are just about the most perfect weapon ive ever seen, provided they have enough leangth
+fire arc of everything the array has line of sight with
+exacting output modulation, by how many emitters you include in any given shot
+huge scalability, you can put small banks on a ship or wrap a whole saucer with them
+extreamly minimal packaging within the space frame
+i can still function to a degree if even 1 emitter is intact
-very small ships will have underpowered arrays, not enough room for longer more powerful ones
now compare that to cannons
-LOW fire arc
-takes up a lot of internal space by comparison, or is outboard and more vulnerable to damage
-if damaged at all, proboly disabled
+can give a smaller ship more firepower, because they dont have the surface needed to place sufficiently long arrays as well
the defiant's cannons are a compromise, not the greatest thing ever
Still waiting on my fleet Galaxy x. I don't care about saucer seperation just release it now and worry about fixing seperation later. Of course the extra console should be tac, and hopefuly it has better boff layout. Also it should have a 2 piece console set bonus that can be used on both the Gal-R and Gal-X, made up of the antimatter spread and saucer sep consoles and should increase turn and some other bonus.
This would be ideal and not exactly duplicate any existing boff layouts, Gal-x deserves some love after how long its been derpy.
Basically, yes. Star Trek seems to have been caught in an endless loop of 'well, THAT problem is solved, now humanity is perfect FOREVER!'
And then something kicks their skull in and they have to deal with the twitching aftermath.
Happened with the Borg, happened with stuff on DS9 (which actually showed what happened after Kirk or Picard moralized in a sharp and witty statement, and left that particular star system, never to return), happened in the STO back story. In fact, it happened REPEATEDLY with the Borg. This was why the Defiant was so bad off at the start. It was not a production ship - it was a pathfinder/prototype, and one that had not been adequately tested or revised. Apparently after Wolf 359, Starfleet decided that all the Borg who ever lived were on that one cube and the Borg threat - and all other threats - were destroyed indisputably for all of eternity forevermore. Not like they could have even one more cube... :rolleyes:
actualy sisko said that it was because they thought that there was going to be a massive borg attack(after the first since the defiant could not have been ready in such a short time)that didn't happen and the defiant was acting like the evil redheaded stepchild at the time.
so it got mothballed so starfleet could improve their current ships since they had more time then they thought
the only obne comparing starships to 20/21st century concepts is you, useing it to try to make a logical hypothetical will not work. first of all everyone has shields, that makes strike craft almost useless, the precise weapons ships have make them completely useless. they also are not fighting in a different medium, air vs water. space fighters are PT boats, not aircraft. same things with subs, theres no surface/below surface, theres just in space.
all energy weapons are basically the same, be them a defiant cannon or a large array. its just a question of each weapons strengths and weaknesses. arrays are not some outdated weapon system, they are just about the most perfect weapon ive ever seen, provided they have enough leangth
+fire arc of everything the array has line of sight with
+exacting output modulation, by how many emitters you include in any given shot
+huge scalability, you can put small banks on a ship or wrap a whole saucer with them
+extreamly minimal packaging within the space frame
+i can still function to a degree if even 1 emitter is intact
-very small ships will have underpowered arrays, not enough room for longer more powerful ones
now compare that to cannons
-LOW fire arc
-takes up a lot of internal space by comparison, or is outboard and more vulnerable to damage
-if damaged at all, proboly disabled
+can give a smaller ship more firepower, because they dont have the surface needed to place sufficiently long arrays as well
the defiant's cannons are a compromise, not the greatest thing ever
it says in the ds9 manual on pg 83 it says that carreirs would be phased out because of a resurgence in bombers and missiles so these are not perfect they victims of technology just like anything else
it says in the ds9 manual on pg 83 it says that carreirs would be phased out because of a resurgence in bombers and missiles so these are not perfect they victims of technology just like anything else
Huh?
Elaborate please. I don't quite follow what you are trying to say in relation to dontdrunkimshoots post.
the only obne comparing starships to 20/21st century concepts is you, useing it to try to make a logical hypothetical will not work. first of all everyone has shields, that makes strike craft almost useless, the precise weapons ships have make them completely useless. they also are not fighting in a different medium, air vs water. space fighters are PT boats, not aircraft. same things with subs, theres no surface/below surface, theres just in space.
all energy weapons are basically the same, be them a defiant cannon or a large array. its just a question of each weapons strengths and weaknesses. arrays are not some outdated weapon system, they are just about the most perfect weapon ive ever seen, provided they have enough leangth
+fire arc of everything the array has line of sight with
+exacting output modulation, by how many emitters you include in any given shot
+huge scalability, you can put small banks on a ship or wrap a whole saucer with them
+extreamly minimal packaging within the space frame
+i can still function to a degree if even 1 emitter is intact
-very small ships will have underpowered arrays, not enough room for longer more powerful ones
now compare that to cannons
-LOW fire arc
-takes up a lot of internal space by comparison, or is outboard and more vulnerable to damage
-if damaged at all, proboly disabled
+can give a smaller ship more firepower, because they dont have the surface needed to place sufficiently long arrays as well
the defiant's cannons are a compromise, not the greatest thing ever
I wonder, why do people get to make Star Trek games whitout knowing things like that.
One of the things that annoy me in STO is that Beam Weapons are among the weakest hitting Weapons in the Game, while they should be on par with DHCs. The only thing that should be different should be the fireing arc IMHO. (not to mention the cannons unrelilableness.)
Escorts should be easy to get, fast, nimble and in general something for players that prefer a more action oriented playstyle.
Cruisers should be tailored for more strategical minded players. But for the sake of "balance" both ship types should be equal strong just by different means.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
someone posted something interesting on this subject a while ago. How about you give cruisers a special slot (or slots) for armor. Much like how only the Escorts can equip cannons, allow only cruisers to equip this extra armor. This would make it much more like the "Tank" it is supposed to be. Now what to do about sci ships...
If STO was played on a Empire level the federation would be taken over in minutes because the canon ships are so weak compared to the klingon and romulan ships
cryptic should look at this and make a balence pass on the canon cstore ships
then seperate pvp and PvE...they are 2 seperate games
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
someone posted something interesting on this subject a while ago. How about you give cruisers a special slot (or slots) for armor. Much like how only the Escorts can equip cannons, allow only cruisers to equip this extra armor. This would make it much more like the "Tank" it is supposed to be. Now what to do about sci ships...
This "Tank" thing doesn't work in STO, since the devs made Escorts firepower super strong. This matter has been discussed in this thread over and over again.
If STO was played on a Empire level the federation would be taken over in minutes because the canon ships are so weak compared to the klingon and romulan ships
cryptic should look at this and make a balence pass on the canon cstore ships
then seperate pvp and PvE...they are 2 seperate games
Indeed, especially the highlighned statement.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
someone posted something interesting on this subject a while ago. How about you give cruisers a special slot (or slots) for armor. Much like how only the Escorts can equip cannons, allow only cruisers to equip this extra armor. This would make it much more like the "Tank" it is supposed to be. Now what to do about sci ships...
gecko was speaking about it in a podcast, but i am not convince of it utilitie.
in a pve environment it is absolutly clear that it is not needed.
in pvp environement, having build my older ship to tank as much as possible i known that it will not restore "balance" as some think it could be.
in pvp you need a good tanking build, but too much tanking is overkill, people are just ignoring you and then come kill you at 5 vs 1 if needed.
and since some cruiser with engi on board can already be very, very indestructible when set properly with all the reputation and new gear arround lately this kind of change would only help tactical cruiser while doing almost nothing for the other.
if it come, cool i will be a little bit more resistant, but is that will be sufficient to make cruiser in general on part with other ship, i don't think so.
ok, heard this, i was able to do a little interview from the newer ship that have come lately with the oldest one, to gather their opinion about the way their roles is evolving lately.
so today around the table is a bunch of cruiser.. or carrier? i don't really known anymore, but here they are:
well that would be me, and first sorry to correct you but we don't use these names between us anymore, i make myself call scimi for example.
you will recognize jemmy and negy, and mr DDeridex... well we call him DEDE, pronounced daidai! it is an old lady you known.
mr tal shiar here, we call it craby, cause we are all agree on that, he look like a crab.
and finaly these 2 one, we call them 6 ( for galaxy retrofit) and 6' ( for the galaxy dreadnought )
UI:
ho! funny nickname.... but why 6?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
well one day jemmy and i just take a look at their stat in the cstore description and just realize that they were the only cruiser with such a small size to be given just 6 in turn rate, hehe, heck even the star cruiser which is bigger than 6 turn better, so from this day 6 and 6' is their nickname.
but don't call them that, they are a little bit touchy about it if you known what i mean.
UI:
hmm....ok!so daidai you have been recently introduce into the game as a playable starship, what do you think of the bo layout you have been given?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
(reaches out to the ear of daidai ) THE MAN ASKS YOU IF EVERYTHING IS OK WITH YOUR LAYOUT!!
mr DDeridex:
ho cmon! i am not senile you known! i perfectly hear what this one ask me! and on that subject i have something to said about my turn...
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
( abruptly interrupted daidai )THE MAN ASKS YOU NOTHING ABOUT YOUR TURN FOR NOW!
i am sorry UI, but we really don't want to go on that kind of subject or we will be on for at least 200 pages!
UI:
ho! that make me think that their is a tread on the federation shypyard in the sto forum that reaches this number, it impressive but, do you think that they are onto something here?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
dunno about this one but what i known is that this years have been rather complicated one, the discussion about the game direction have been quite fast because we known where we want to go but... it 6 and 6'again! you know how the elderly is, they nitpick... they get tired... they reports sessions, they demand small pleasures....
when it's not for a cake it is a pepito...
(reaches out to the ear of 6) " IS IT NOT THAT YOU LOVE PEPITO, HUM?!!!
6:
hey now listen, that enought, it ridicule, you known what? i goign to tell you mr UI, we realized that player reclame me...CALL ME! and some well intended persons try to make me look like an antique!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
pfffff, ok here we go again, it 8 in the afternoon, the soup is not on the table, mr is nipticking, mr is getting upset....
6':
ho shut up! you have been trying to rub us since day one, when it is not the cannnon that i can't use because of only 1 lt tact slot it is the 9 console slot that we forget, when i got a 9 console slot, my integrated cloack become a console!
you are a crook mr!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
ho ok, and what exactly are you going to do with cannon 6'! with your turn rate! care to explain?!!
haaalalalala! and who are they blaming? it's me again!
ho god! UI... the gratitude of the old.
(reaches out to the ear of 6') HO I SHOULD HAVE DONE WITH YOU WHAT I HAVE DONE WITH THE OTHER! REMOVE YOU FROM THE CSTORE AND SEND YOU WITH THE FREE SHIP LIKE STAR CRUISER! WE'LL SEE THERE IF YOU HAVE SOME CHIPSTER AND PEPITO!
geeeese!! UI, i need to explain to you that 6 AND 6' here think with a mind of 2360 in a world of 2409
6':
huh? what do you said again?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
(reaches out to the ear of 6') I WAS STATING TO MR UI THAT WE WERE IN 2409!
6':
ho yes, yes that true, well happy new years mr UI
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
yeah, yeah that it, happy new years 6'-_-
6':
DON'T CALL ME THAT! i am not a number! i am an iconic ship!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
you are an iconic idiot, that what you are! hahaha!
6':
now that enought,this is the battle cloack that overfilling the balance, all hand battle station! activte all buff!! fire at my command ( aiming at scimi and UI)
PEW! PEW!
UI:
( touche his body looking for holes ) NOTHING!!!?? HE DIDN'T TOUCH US!!!!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
you can bielieve that we have been lucky and be happy with it... correction! you were, me i don't care i got a second shield passive, hehe, 1 for eatch shot:)
UI:
no man i don't known, you see the size of that god damn phaser lance! it bigger than him
we should be f.... dead man!
this was divine intervention! you known what divine intervention is?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
well don't you try to do a pulp fiction remake on me, i known what divine intervention is, and this is not!
it is the integrated galaxy dreadnought divine targetting system.
it would have been luck if his shot have reach us! i see that things miss a gate in KA at less than 2 km, and the gate was even not moving!!!
(reaches out to the ear of 6') YOU'VE ONCE AGAIN FORGOTTEN YOUR GLASSES IN THE CAR HUH?
UI:
i am out of here! what going to happen next? a constitution trying to ram me because he is not at tiers5 version?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
wait! you do not want to open the gift that has been deposited on the table before we arrived?
UI:
who could have send us a gift?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
i don't known, maybe one of my fan, let open it!... ho, wonderfull! a digital clock!
UI:
a strange one i would said, the number going backward, it might be broken.
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
ho there is a word of the fan who send it, let read it, so what it said?
UI:
...it said... "go to hell, you f.... galaxy fanboy, signed: polarotroll"
-_-...ok faragut! one to beam up!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
come back! i got 7 turn rate!! ( even tho i am the biggest ship in the game ) i will use it to turn my bigg TRIBBLE to absord most of the explosionnnnnnnnnnnn!
BOOM!
well as you can see, i only got this tiny transcript, so sorry, but it did not go as planned!
i will try next time to get an other interview if somes things change before that.
cruisers should be given an inherant damage buff to dual beam banks , getting caught in a cruisers beams should be incredibly painfull considering there warp core power output
this way no new weapons would need to be made and frankly if your in an escort and not skilled enough to avoid a cruisers frontal weapons you deserve all you get =p
gecko was speaking about it in a podcast, but i am not convince of it utilitie.
in a pve environment it is absolutly clear that it is not needed.
in pvp environement, having build my older ship to tank as much as possible i known that it will not restore "balance" as some think it could be.
in pvp you need a good tanking build, but too much tanking is overkill, people are just ignoring you and then come kill you at 5 vs 1 if needed.
and since some cruiser with engi on board can already be very, very indestructible when set properly with all the reputation and new gear arround lately this kind of change would only help tactical cruiser while doing almost nothing for the other.
if it come, cool i will be a little bit more resistant, but is that will be sufficient to make cruiser in general on part with other ship, i don't think so.
I don't think that Gecko is realizing that there is any big problem with Cruisers in the first place.
Cryptic put Star Trek ship mechanics upside down, in favour of their beloved escorts. They obviously don't see any reason to redo what they have done and obviously they don't seem to realize (or dont care) that there are discrepances with "real" Star Trek at all.
It's really sad that the biggest Star Trek game ever is run by people who prefer Star Wars or BSG. Especially if those people twist and bend everything to make it fit to their personal preferences (which is pretty unprofessional IMHO).
How (bad) they made the Galaxy Class just shows that they don't really care how things in Star Trek work or what some things mean.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
yet didnt find the simple engineering science that clearly and irrevocably make comparison between terestrial and interstalar "carriers" completly bogus, since the closest you will even get to a "space fighter" is a big torpedo/missile with its own guns.
a lot of the fan fiction i read heavily referenced the brain weevils from tng conspiracy as a force that sought to subvert the federations "non aggression principles" into a position of utter complacency. a story that does tie together discrepancies between tos & tmp.
Okay first a reply to you.
The analogy is not that Carriers in space would be a better ship than a galaxy.
I am saying that in our Real Life history we had proponents of certain types of war. IE Battleships. They felt they would be the end of all arguments and battles. Then a game changer of technology. In this case the Carrier and those big guns were obsolete. Technology did not climb in a straight line, it took a hard left.
To translate the concept to Star Trek. The Galaxy huge beam array was impressive, but some how less than feasible versus newer threats. Result, new ships are smaller, less carrying families, Instead of one or two big weapons they carry lots of smaller ones.
Take for example why they chose to send Voyager a science vessel to capture the makii. (I know I spelled that wrong) Because as Paris said there was no ship in Starfleet nimble enough for the environment of the badlands. Different circumstances get different ships, even back at the fleet planning stage.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
the only obne comparing starships to 20/21st century concepts is you, useing it to try to make a logical hypothetical will not work. first of all everyone has shields, that makes strike craft almost useless, the precise weapons ships have make them completely useless. they also are not fighting in a different medium, air vs water. space fighters are PT boats, not aircraft. same things with subs, theres no surface/below surface, theres just in space.
all energy weapons are basically the same, be them a defiant cannon or a large array. its just a question of each weapons strengths and weaknesses. arrays are not some outdated weapon system, they are just about the most perfect weapon ive ever seen, provided they have enough leangth
+fire arc of everything the array has line of sight with
+exacting output modulation, by how many emitters you include in any given shot
+huge scalability, you can put small banks on a ship or wrap a whole saucer with them
+extreamly minimal packaging within the space frame
+i can still function to a degree if even 1 emitter is intact
-very small ships will have underpowered arrays, not enough room for longer more powerful ones
now compare that to cannons
-LOW fire arc
-takes up a lot of internal space by comparison, or is outboard and more vulnerable to damage
-if damaged at all, proboly disabled
+can give a smaller ship more firepower, because they dont have the surface needed to place sufficiently long arrays as well
the defiant's cannons are a compromise, not the greatest thing ever
Few things. See my other reply about I am using Real history to illuminate some of the whys and hows that technology can change or not change. I am not trying to say a space ship a bomber and a ww2 ship are the same thing. I am showing how technology does not follow a straight line as much as people would like it to.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
ok, heard this, i was able to do a little interview from the newer ship that have come lately with the oldest one, to gather their opinion about the way their roles is evolving lately.
so today around the table is a bunch of cruiser.. or carrier? i don't really known anymore, but here they are:
One thing to note though. The D'Deridex Warbird isn't that ineffective as a PvP ship. I've been looking at it from a healer perspective, and although the boff and console layouts are far from ideal... really, what healer ships are there on the Romulan Warbird list, anyway. Taking it into PvP, it has consistently been hitting 2nd highest in healing, and that's with the basic gear you can buy on the Exchange. I know I know, it's not a healer ship, I don't even know what it's really supposed to be with a turn rate like that, but it is one heck of a forced-healer.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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In the Delaware river at this moment are two battleships. The Olympia and the New Jersey.
But by the size difference the Olympia would be at best a destroyer by the time the New Jersey sailed. They just move new ships up in scale.
As another example the Frigate was once a pretty big ship, now they are some of the smallest used. Progress marches on.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
That galaxy was ready to face a full scuadron of galor ships (or more) hiden in the maccalister nebula, now that sound like a crucier that can hold in his own power fire and resistance.
sry for mi english not my main language.
I have observed many people on this forum and let's not forget most of Cryptics Devs (Mr. Rivera in particular) having obviously such an opinion. In my perspective this is only the result in not understanding what Star Trek (and especially the Federation and Starfleet) makes different from other Sci Fi universes.
In TNG humanity has become "grown up" and more peaceful (which has been put ad absurdum by the producers/writer of later series and TNG movies), leaving behind greed and the desire for revenge for example.
In my opinion the galaxy Class stands for a peaceful but yet powerful Federation ready to defend itself with the most powerful ships ever built. Thats why i have never understood why they had to indtroduce ships like the Defiant or the Sovereign, they just wheren't needed IMO.
Cryptics devs (and Mr. Rivera in particular) seem not to understand this and treat the Federation/Starfleet more like a standart Sci Fi Humanity which behaves much more like todays militia or some generic Sci fi militia. They obviously didn't catch how things in Star Trek work, which is really sad in my eyes.
Very true.
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While a good bit of focus turned darker with DS9 and later shows, there was already some evidence in TNG that things were not as perect as they thought. The very end of the episode where Q sent the Enterprise to the borg has Picard noting to Riker that perhaps Q was right and they needed a kick in the rear because they had gotten complacent.
Enterprise was NOT ready for anything out there. Defiant was an experiment to shoe horn in all the firepower of a big ship into something cheap. . and it failed at the time. Much later did the crew on DS9 make it work and improved on the basic specs as well. Technology evolves.
And because I have done alot of comparing 20/21st century concepts to Star Fleet.
Which is more powerful? A battleship or an aircraft carrier? Prior to WW2 it was assumed a heavy gunned battleship. They learned differently. Maybe the big phaser array on the Galaxy is like the 18" guns of a battleship? Impressive but we can do better by doing it differently.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The Scimitar, Garumba, Galaxy-X all seem to think the Wave Motion Gun is the future of battlefield dominance. And Donatra keeps that philosophy alive in that STF.
Granted Borg Tactical Cubes are all about critting with Plasma torps so there is that.
Be fair. Donatra's ship is a Scimitar. :P
And while it seems cool. They don't have the hitting power to really make them worth it.
On the Dreadnaught I have wished I could slot my spinal weapon to what I have my ship to. Like Borg Anti-proton beams or the like. But is a digression.
I think the malfunction in the game for the Galaxy is that aside from the Miranda it is the only free ship from the series. Want a Nebula, or Excelsior, etc. Buy one. Since they make the purchased ships slightly better than any free ship you get the Galaxy on the short end of the stick. Can I logically argue why it might work like that in the Star Trek universe? Sure we have been having a blast doing just that.
So My question is this, is the Venture that much better than a Galaxy? If so I say reskin one to a Galaxy.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Basically, yes. Star Trek seems to have been caught in an endless loop of 'well, THAT problem is solved, now humanity is perfect FOREVER!'
And then something kicks their skull in and they have to deal with the twitching aftermath.
Happened with the Borg, happened with stuff on DS9 (which actually showed what happened after Kirk or Picard moralized in a sharp and witty statement, and left that particular star system, never to return), happened in the STO back story. In fact, it happened REPEATEDLY with the Borg. This was why the Defiant was so bad off at the start. It was not a production ship - it was a pathfinder/prototype, and one that had not been adequately tested or revised. Apparently after Wolf 359, Starfleet decided that all the Borg who ever lived were on that one cube and the Borg threat - and all other threats - were destroyed indisputably for all of eternity forevermore. Not like they could have even one more cube... :rolleyes:
If the Enterprise Crew at the first encounter (at J25) would have acted much more forceful and determined, the Borg ship wouldn't have had a chance to adapt to their weapons. Instead of that, Picard called for one conference after another, while facing the deadliest enemy the federation has ever encountered.
Yes you are right, the crew and especially Picard and Riker needed a kick in the TRIBBLE concerning the Borg and some other threads. The ship itself was more than ready especially since it wasn't even made ready for combat, and yet it could almost obliterate half of the Borg cube with one shot.
That's why i would like to see a 3 pack of the Galaxy Class featuring a Enginnering/Tacical/Science version, just like the Vesta/Odyssey/Bortas/Scirmitar and Andorian ship.
dontdrunkimshoots enhanced exploration cruiser retrofit 3 pack
Cryptic could easily make a shipload of money if they would release it, especially since the Galaxy Class is approximately double a popular than all those ships together IMHO.
I just don't understand why Cryptics devs refuse to release such a ship pack, i mean it wouldn't put their beloved Escorts from their throne. It wouldn't be much of work either, since the ship model is already in the game.
On the other hand it would make a lot of displeased people happy by making their favourite ship finally playable and a bit more true to the shows.
I wish i had more space in my signature to put in this statement...
the only obne comparing starships to 20/21st century concepts is you, useing it to try to make a logical hypothetical will not work. first of all everyone has shields, that makes strike craft almost useless, the precise weapons ships have make them completely useless. they also are not fighting in a different medium, air vs water. space fighters are PT boats, not aircraft. same things with subs, theres no surface/below surface, theres just in space.
all energy weapons are basically the same, be them a defiant cannon or a large array. its just a question of each weapons strengths and weaknesses. arrays are not some outdated weapon system, they are just about the most perfect weapon ive ever seen, provided they have enough leangth
+fire arc of everything the array has line of sight with
+exacting output modulation, by how many emitters you include in any given shot
+huge scalability, you can put small banks on a ship or wrap a whole saucer with them
+extreamly minimal packaging within the space frame
+i can still function to a degree if even 1 emitter is intact
-very small ships will have underpowered arrays, not enough room for longer more powerful ones
now compare that to cannons
-LOW fire arc
-takes up a lot of internal space by comparison, or is outboard and more vulnerable to damage
-if damaged at all, proboly disabled
+can give a smaller ship more firepower, because they dont have the surface needed to place sufficiently long arrays as well
the defiant's cannons are a compromise, not the greatest thing ever
This would be ideal and not exactly duplicate any existing boff layouts, Gal-x deserves some love after how long its been derpy.
lt Cmdr Tac
Cmdr Eng
Lt Eng
Lt Sci
Ensign Uni
actualy sisko said that it was because they thought that there was going to be a massive borg attack(after the first since the defiant could not have been ready in such a short time)that didn't happen and the defiant was acting like the evil redheaded stepchild at the time.
so it got mothballed so starfleet could improve their current ships since they had more time then they thought
it says in the ds9 manual on pg 83 it says that carreirs would be phased out because of a resurgence in bombers and missiles so these are not perfect they victims of technology just like anything else
Huh?
Elaborate please. I don't quite follow what you are trying to say in relation to dontdrunkimshoots post.
obviously it was directed to the person he quoted this is the first forum ive been to that doesnt copy the whole conversaton
One of the things that annoy me in STO is that Beam Weapons are among the weakest hitting Weapons in the Game, while they should be on par with DHCs. The only thing that should be different should be the fireing arc IMHO.
(not to mention the cannons unrelilableness.)
Escorts should be easy to get, fast, nimble and in general something for players that prefer a more action oriented playstyle.
Cruisers should be tailored for more strategical minded players. But for the sake of "balance" both ship types should be equal strong just by different means.
cryptic should look at this and make a balence pass on the canon cstore ships
then seperate pvp and PvE...they are 2 seperate games
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
This "Tank" thing doesn't work in STO, since the devs made Escorts firepower super strong. This matter has been discussed in this thread over and over again. Indeed, especially the highlighned statement.
gecko was speaking about it in a podcast, but i am not convince of it utilitie.
in a pve environment it is absolutly clear that it is not needed.
in pvp environement, having build my older ship to tank as much as possible i known that it will not restore "balance" as some think it could be.
in pvp you need a good tanking build, but too much tanking is overkill, people are just ignoring you and then come kill you at 5 vs 1 if needed.
and since some cruiser with engi on board can already be very, very indestructible when set properly with all the reputation and new gear arround lately this kind of change would only help tactical cruiser while doing almost nothing for the other.
if it come, cool i will be a little bit more resistant, but is that will be sufficient to make cruiser in general on part with other ship, i don't think so.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
so today around the table is a bunch of cruiser.. or carrier? i don't really known anymore, but here they are:
mr DDeridex
mr galaxy retrofit
mr Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds
mr galaxy dreadnought
mr negvar
mr Jem?Hadar Dreadnought Carrier
mr tal shiar adapted battle cruiser
and me, the unknown interviewer AKA: UI
UI:
so who want to beguin first?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
well that would be me, and first sorry to correct you but we don't use these names between us anymore, i make myself call scimi for example.
you will recognize jemmy and negy, and mr DDeridex... well we call him DEDE, pronounced daidai! it is an old lady you known.
mr tal shiar here, we call it craby, cause we are all agree on that, he look like a crab.
and finaly these 2 one, we call them 6 ( for galaxy retrofit) and 6' ( for the galaxy dreadnought )
UI:
ho! funny nickname.... but why 6?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
well one day jemmy and i just take a look at their stat in the cstore description and just realize that they were the only cruiser with such a small size to be given just 6 in turn rate, hehe, heck even the star cruiser which is bigger than 6 turn better, so from this day 6 and 6' is their nickname.
but don't call them that, they are a little bit touchy about it if you known what i mean.
UI:
hmm....ok!so daidai you have been recently introduce into the game as a playable starship, what do you think of the bo layout you have been given?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
(reaches out to the ear of daidai ) THE MAN ASKS YOU IF EVERYTHING IS OK WITH YOUR LAYOUT!!
mr DDeridex:
ho cmon! i am not senile you known! i perfectly hear what this one ask me! and on that subject i have something to said about my turn...
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
( abruptly interrupted daidai )THE MAN ASKS YOU NOTHING ABOUT YOUR TURN FOR NOW!
i am sorry UI, but we really don't want to go on that kind of subject or we will be on for at least 200 pages!
UI:
ho! that make me think that their is a tread on the federation shypyard in the sto forum that reaches this number, it impressive but, do you think that they are onto something here?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
dunno about this one but what i known is that this years have been rather complicated one, the discussion about the game direction have been quite fast because we known where we want to go but... it 6 and 6'again! you know how the elderly is, they nitpick... they get tired... they reports sessions, they demand small pleasures....
when it's not for a cake it is a pepito...
(reaches out to the ear of 6) " IS IT NOT THAT YOU LOVE PEPITO, HUM?!!!
6:
hey now listen, that enought, it ridicule, you known what? i goign to tell you mr UI, we realized that player reclame me...CALL ME! and some well intended persons try to make me look like an antique!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
pfffff, ok here we go again, it 8 in the afternoon, the soup is not on the table, mr is nipticking, mr is getting upset....
6':
ho shut up! you have been trying to rub us since day one, when it is not the cannnon that i can't use because of only 1 lt tact slot it is the 9 console slot that we forget, when i got a 9 console slot, my integrated cloack become a console!
you are a crook mr!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
ho ok, and what exactly are you going to do with cannon 6'! with your turn rate! care to explain?!!
haaalalalala! and who are they blaming? it's me again!
ho god! UI... the gratitude of the old.
(reaches out to the ear of 6') HO I SHOULD HAVE DONE WITH YOU WHAT I HAVE DONE WITH THE OTHER! REMOVE YOU FROM THE CSTORE AND SEND YOU WITH THE FREE SHIP LIKE STAR CRUISER! WE'LL SEE THERE IF YOU HAVE SOME CHIPSTER AND PEPITO!
geeeese!! UI, i need to explain to you that 6 AND 6' here think with a mind of 2360 in a world of 2409
6':
huh? what do you said again?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
(reaches out to the ear of 6') I WAS STATING TO MR UI THAT WE WERE IN 2409!
6':
ho yes, yes that true, well happy new years mr UI
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
yeah, yeah that it, happy new years 6'-_-
6':
DON'T CALL ME THAT! i am not a number! i am an iconic ship!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
you are an iconic idiot, that what you are! hahaha!
6':
now that enought,this is the battle cloack that overfilling the balance, all hand battle station! activte all buff!! fire at my command ( aiming at scimi and UI)
PEW! PEW!
UI:
( touche his body looking for holes ) NOTHING!!!?? HE DIDN'T TOUCH US!!!!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
you can bielieve that we have been lucky and be happy with it... correction! you were, me i don't care i got a second shield passive, hehe, 1 for eatch shot:)
UI:
no man i don't known, you see the size of that god damn phaser lance! it bigger than him
we should be f.... dead man!
this was divine intervention! you known what divine intervention is?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
well don't you try to do a pulp fiction remake on me, i known what divine intervention is, and this is not!
it is the integrated galaxy dreadnought divine targetting system.
it would have been luck if his shot have reach us! i see that things miss a gate in KA at less than 2 km, and the gate was even not moving!!!
(reaches out to the ear of 6') YOU'VE ONCE AGAIN FORGOTTEN YOUR GLASSES IN THE CAR HUH?
UI:
i am out of here! what going to happen next? a constitution trying to ram me because he is not at tiers5 version?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
wait! you do not want to open the gift that has been deposited on the table before we arrived?
UI:
who could have send us a gift?
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
i don't known, maybe one of my fan, let open it!... ho, wonderfull! a digital clock!
UI:
a strange one i would said, the number going backward, it might be broken.
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
ho there is a word of the fan who send it, let read it, so what it said?
UI:
...it said... "go to hell, you f.... galaxy fanboy, signed: polarotroll"
-_-...ok faragut! one to beam up!
Romulan Dreadnought Warbirds:
come back! i got 7 turn rate!! ( even tho i am the biggest ship in the game ) i will use it to turn my bigg TRIBBLE to absord most of the explosionnnnnnnnnnnn!
BOOM!
well as you can see, i only got this tiny transcript, so sorry, but it did not go as planned!
i will try next time to get an other interview if somes things change before that.
be seeing you!
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
cruisers should be given an inherant damage buff to dual beam banks , getting caught in a cruisers beams should be incredibly painfull considering there warp core power output
this way no new weapons would need to be made and frankly if your in an escort and not skilled enough to avoid a cruisers frontal weapons you deserve all you get =p
I don't think that Gecko is realizing that there is any big problem with Cruisers in the first place.
Cryptic put Star Trek ship mechanics upside down, in favour of their beloved escorts. They obviously don't see any reason to redo what they have done and obviously they don't seem to realize (or dont care) that there are discrepances with "real" Star Trek at all.
It's really sad that the biggest Star Trek game ever is run by people who prefer Star Wars or BSG. Especially if those people twist and bend everything to make it fit to their personal preferences (which is pretty unprofessional IMHO).
How (bad) they made the Galaxy Class just shows that they don't really care how things in Star Trek work or what some things mean.
Okay first a reply to you.
The analogy is not that Carriers in space would be a better ship than a galaxy.
I am saying that in our Real Life history we had proponents of certain types of war. IE Battleships. They felt they would be the end of all arguments and battles. Then a game changer of technology. In this case the Carrier and those big guns were obsolete. Technology did not climb in a straight line, it took a hard left.
To translate the concept to Star Trek. The Galaxy huge beam array was impressive, but some how less than feasible versus newer threats. Result, new ships are smaller, less carrying families, Instead of one or two big weapons they carry lots of smaller ones.
Take for example why they chose to send Voyager a science vessel to capture the makii. (I know I spelled that wrong) Because as Paris said there was no ship in Starfleet nimble enough for the environment of the badlands. Different circumstances get different ships, even back at the fleet planning stage.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Few things. See my other reply about I am using Real history to illuminate some of the whys and hows that technology can change or not change. I am not trying to say a space ship a bomber and a ww2 ship are the same thing. I am showing how technology does not follow a straight line as much as people would like it to.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
TL, DR. It started out funny though.
One thing to note though. The D'Deridex Warbird isn't that ineffective as a PvP ship. I've been looking at it from a healer perspective, and although the boff and console layouts are far from ideal... really, what healer ships are there on the Romulan Warbird list, anyway. Taking it into PvP, it has consistently been hitting 2nd highest in healing, and that's with the basic gear you can buy on the Exchange. I know I know, it's not a healer ship, I don't even know what it's really supposed to be with a turn rate like that, but it is one heck of a forced-healer.
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