You mean like how they change things for the PvP crowd (a significant minority undoubtedly) all the time?
So... You were saying..
No, I was talking about people who left the game and no longer participate. He was speaking as if changing the Galaxy would change that. PvPers are actually playing the game, and a much larger number than the folks who would only come back if the Galaxy gets changed.
____
Keep calm, and continue firing photon torpedoes.
Or, in otherwords, you don't like the fact that I pointed out - EVIDENCE from episodes - that the Defiant wasn't as invincible as you would like to think. That makes you a Defiant fanboy. And a hypocrite.
Nope. There EQUAL evidence to show that it was a mediocre ship at best, but WHENEVER that is brought up, you Galaxy Fanboys whine "it's the writer's fault" on a TELEVISION Show where EVERYTHING PLOT WISE IS "THE WRITERS FAULT".
So I guess that makes you a hypocrite as well because if I'm not mistaken, you are one of those people that scrams "it's the writers' fault" when things don't go your way regarding the Ent-D.
No, I was talking about people who left the game and no longer participate. He was speaking as if changing the Galaxy would change that. PvPers are actually playing the game, and a much larger number than the folks who would only come back if the Galaxy gets changed.
i don't like the treatement done to the galaxy class in this game and i won't quit for just that.
they are player in less good condition, the one that want a tier5 constitution and could only fly it in tier2.
did they quit for that? i don't think so
nope, you got it all wrong.
never veraticus said that a fix to the galaxy ship will bring back player, he was speaking about the balance in this game concerning the trinity, and that if cryptic fix that it could bring back player that want a balanced game.
the defiant was basically always consistent. rarely did it ever face anything that was its equal or better. only real examples were the lakota, a vorcha, and that jem dread. otherwise its performance was consistent, it blew up bugs and bops no problem. in the mirror universe it exploited a weakness in that huge negvar, it could not harm the defiant. it finally disengaged, still warp capable, after several minutes of just getting pounded on.
the performance of the enterprise D ranges so absurdly far that when it performed poorly like in rascals and generations its a huge plot hole compared to how it did in the wounded, qwho, the survivors
Nope. There EQUAL evidence to show that it was a mediocre ship at best, but WHENEVER that is brought up, you Galaxy Fanboys whine "it's the writer's fault" on a TELEVISION Show where EVERYTHING PLOT WISE IS "THE WRITERS FAULT".
So I guess that makes you a hypocrite as well because if I'm not mistaken, you are one of those people that scrams "it's the writers' fault" when things don't go your way regarding the Ent-D.
hey polaron!!! your back!
i see that you didn't want to respond my question because we haven't respond to one of your.
can you please remind me what that question is, i will give an answer to the best of my capabilities and knownlege, but you will have to answer mine after.
i don't like the treatement done to the galaxy class in this game and i won't quit for just that.
they are player in less good condition, the one that want a tier5 constitution and could only fly it in tier2.
did they quit for that? i don't think so
nope, you got it all wrong.
never veraticus said that a fix to the galaxy ship will bring back player, he was speaking about the balance in this game concerning the trinity, and that if cryptic fix that it could bring back player that want a balanced game.
There is no such thing as "balanced." There's always going to be something people can use to get an edge on others, and the needs of PvP are quite different from PvE. Not to mention, no one can agree on what "balanced" even means. Demanding "balance" is demanding "it should work my way."
____
Keep calm, and continue firing photon torpedoes.
Demanding balance means demanding a situation where everyone can participate according to his class/ship. It means having more than one viable build and class
Demanding balance means demanding a situation where everyone can participate according to his class/ship. It means having more than one viable build and class
But that means people may need to do some work to get a suiable ship/build combination. Most of the people crying balance just want to be able to do it all... which can be done, they just want to do it all more than others it seems.
There is no such thing as "balanced." There's always going to be something people can use to get an edge on others, and the needs of PvP are quite different from PvE. Not to mention, no one can agree on what "balanced" even means. Demanding "balance" is demanding "it should work my way."
no, this game have been created on a trinity model wich, right from the star, implie a balanced.
there is no debate about that.
now, ultimate balanced is not possible, for that i agree if that what you mean, but you can still get a model that try to get as closed as possible, right now it is going in the opposite direction.
and we also don't need to get a definition of balanced to known about what we are speaking about.
when you see a class of ship that dish the best damage and in the mean time have the same potential to tank than the "tanking class" ship, you don't need to be agreed on a definition to see that their is something wrong.
gecko himself recognize in the podcast ugc interview that escort right now are too tanky.
are you gonna accuse him that he want things to work his way?
no, this game have been created on a trinity model wich, right from the star, implie a balanced.
No, it doesn't. Look at WoW. Even games who've been around forever (in MMO terms) can't get "balance" out of the trinity.
there is no debate about that.
You're right, there is no debate. Because it ain't gonna happen. "Balance" is a utopian ideal, and we know how that works out.
now, ultimate balanced is not possible, for that i agree if that what you mean, but you can still get a model that try to get as closed as possible, right now it is going in the opposite direction.
See, that's a more valid argument to make. I disagree that it's "going in the opposite direction", but I can see your point of vew.
and we also don't need to get a definition of balanced to known about what we are speaking about.
That doesn't even make sense.
when you see a class of ship that dish the best damage and in the mean time have the same potential to tank than the "tanking class" ship, you don't need to be agreed on a definition to see that their is something wrong.
gecko himself recognize in the podcast ugc interview that escort right now are too tanky.
are you gonna accuse him that he want things to work his way?
Where the hell are you getting that? I never "accused" anyone of anything. And I never said ships didn't need any change. The argument was they should all be "balanced," which isn't going to happen.
I agree that certain ships are overpowered, and some are underpowered. I'd like to see that fixed. But that doesn't mean what I feel needs fixed is what you feel needs fixed. Hence, why we're not going to get even close to "balanced." No one agrees on what should be done.
Except I think everyone agrees the Excelsior & bugship are way overpowered. How to fix that, and whether Cryptic is even willing to, is up for debate.
____
Keep calm, and continue firing photon torpedoes.
But that means people may need to do some work to get a suiable ship/build combination. Most of the people crying balance just want to be able to do it all... which can be done, they just want to do it all more than others it seems.
You want to do it all? I have three words for you. Fleet Tor'kaht Battlecruiser.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
the defiant was basically always consistent. rarely did it ever face anything that was its equal or better. only real examples were the lakota, a vorcha, and that jem dread. otherwise its performance was consistent, it blew up bugs and bops no problem. in the mirror universe it exploited a weakness in that huge negvar, it could not harm the defiant. it finally disengaged, still warp capable, after several minutes of just getting pounded on.
1st_ sry for mi english
2nd_ u talk about the chapter where the mirror defiant give a lot of figth agains that negvar at very close range so this way can avoid get hit because lose almost al shield power and the armor get a lot of dmg ? that chapter were if they try to get out will be vaporized for one more shoot? but for luck get the support of a raider (a pergrine if im rigth) who help to made the negvar retreat? because the defiant alone CANT DOIT i see this chapter 2 days ago
but dont worry in this game your defiant can doit and more thanks to the inbalance of this game
I dunno if this has been posted in what I assume was a :mad::mad:RAGE:mad::mad: fest given that the thread is 143 pages long.
But there are two things to remember about the Galaxy.
First, as she was originally designed, she's a ship of exploration. Strong shields, limited weapons and lots of room for science labs of all kinds, as well as family quartering and tons space for downtime. I mean if you look at the Galaxy, she has 30 some odd decks and fully half of them are for crew quartering and downtime. Hardly the warship everyone seems to think it is.
Second, by 2409 the aging design has been far superseded by newer, more advanced vessels. In essence she's a nearly 50 year old antique. And before you bring up the Excelsior class, remember, they build far more of those than they did Galaxies. Also, beign smaller, they are easier to gut and refit.
The Galaxy is a good class. She's just not the belle of the ball any more.
first off, the galaxy was chosen as the flagship of the federation, this is a military term meaning it is the best and most powerful ship in the fleet. 2nd ALL starfleet ships are exploration ships (with one exception) 3rd, the nx connie excel ambassador and sov were all the pinnical of starfleet milatary and scientific tech when they were build. but when the galaxy is braught up all of a sudden its a pleasure ship pure explorer among other things, what did starfleet suddenly dicide to make a ship from the carnival fleet their flag ship? yes it had sciance labs it was a multi mission ship. lets not forget that the romulans send 2 warbirds to face it when they used adm jarok as bait, it disabled a galor with 1-2 shots in the epsode with the phoniex, 2 galors were sent to intercept it when it was escorting a bajorian ship, and lets not forget the major encouters when it stalled a borg cube on 2 different occasions to buy time and held off 3 bug ships WITH NO FUNCTIONAL SHIELDS(wasnt destroyed until it was rammed) ent-d was only distroyed( bull****ed fight ent could pwn that bop and yet riker stupidly tryed to run just so they could roll out the shiny new sov)borg pounded the hull and it lived but a few torps and disrupters from a bop and kaboom?
as for upgrades it was built for a 100yr hull life and was ment to be upgraded and adaptable with i belive 60-70% reconfeguable acording to the tech manual. with its size and large warp core it could easly keep up with newer tech(and i dont care how nice the excel was no way can a 100+ ship design out shoot an brand new top of the line ship that was more advanced from the start and ment to be upgraded) it woulnt be as good as a sov but wouldnt be too far behind tac wise it just coulnt turn or accel worth a dam
ps yes someone in this thread called the galaxy a plesure ship once
OK, for all still deluded people out there - noone in this thread wants to make the Galaxy a warship. I'm the first one to be against it - the Galaxy was created as a ship of exploration in a period of time when the Federation did not have a concept of warships yet. Now, that doesn't mean that they send their ships in space unarmed.
That said, I will admit that I do like the Galaxy even as it is. The thing in indestructible, especially the fleet version. Literally never dies, it's tanking abilities are epic. If I want to get it blown up, I have to pick a fight in Ker'rat with a couple of Tor'kahts and BoPs. I kinda' like that on my Feds., especially if I take into consideration that I have children and families on board the Galaxy.
However, we're playing an MMO here and there is this issue with the usefullness of each member of a team working on a STF, PvE, PvP or whatever. Every ship that is considered T5 needs to be an asset to a team in it's own manner and I'm afraid that the Galaxy has become more of a liability in such circumistances. And this is the main issue many of the people in this thread have with the ship. We want to use our not so cheap Tier 5 ship as an asset when playing with other people. I just had a conversation in game couple of days ago with a fleetie of mine, and he was laughing at someone bringing a Galaxy-R into a STF. That's the issue right there - when they see this ship, people consider it a liability and a burden.
Now, I assume there are couple of ways to fix this:
- Change the Galaxy Boff and console layout.
- Make real tanking (not the escort like) viable in PvE and end-game, just as healing rather than everything being a DPS fiesta. Good point to start from would be the CE event and how things are rated there. (my prefered way to handle the issue)
- Do something to enhance the engineering Boff abilities, especially low level ones and the usefulness of eng. consoles.
I dunno if this has been posted in what I assume was a :mad::mad:RAGE:mad::mad: fest given that the thread is 143 pages long.
But there are two things to remember about the Galaxy.
First, as she was originally designed, she's a ship of exploration. Strong shields, limited weapons and lots of room for science labs of all kinds, as well as family quartering and tons space for downtime. I mean if you look at the Galaxy, she has 30 some odd decks and fully half of them are for crew quartering and downtime. Hardly the warship everyone seems to think it is.
Second, by 2409 the aging design has been far superseded by newer, more advanced vessels. In essence she's a nearly 50 year old antique. And before you bring up the Excelsior class, remember, they build far more of those than they did Galaxies. Also, beign smaller, they are easier to gut and refit.
The Galaxy is a good class. She's just not the belle of the ball any more.
there are limits as to how much you can upgrade a ship thats why real life navys have to build new classes of ships. the excels slmall size would actualy hurt it since it would not have room for some of the newer tech(otherwise we would have put nuclear reactors into gato class submarines in the 60's) also not every ship can take the new tech when voyager tryed to use slipstream it almoast distroyed it self(both times)
When the Galaxy was launched the Excel was nothing more than a workhorse, serving the same role as the BOP. We have seen them adapt the gal in the series to have more tactical each. Frankly all gals in the game should have the Venture strips but defiently the Retro which is NAMED AFTER THE VENTURE. Even at 50 years old she should still among the tops of the powerhouse ships, only Sov, and Odyessy should beat her in stats. Again make all BO slots universal. the ship would be closer to cannon and more usful in game thus more people will pay for her.
. The argument was they should all be "balanced," which isn't going to happen.
that a rather strange point of view, so if ship class aren't "balanced" what is the point in choosing one or the other? let just get the best one!
if one class have better asset than an other, why bother choosing the other in theory?
escort ship, due to multiple little changes that have been made to the game (reputation are among them ) have combine the firepower that is the asset of this class to tanking abilities that is the asset of the cruiser.
this was not like this 2 years ago, the game have slowly slide to this state and here appear the imbalance.
and the lead designer of the game is agree, the escort should not be that tanky regarding the firepower that they can dish out.
it just common sense, not something that need multiple opinion to then reach a common ground and applie a fix.
a entire ship class can not combine the asset of 2, period.
this principle can not be debate.
the way to applie the fix can, however.
and btw, i don't find the exelsior to be overpowered ( if that was in comparison to the galaxy x for example i could agree but that is an other debate )
Because the Gal was retrofit into the Gal-X for being a combat ship.
I don't get it, these people want everything. The Galaxy wasn't a warship, the Galaxy-X was a warship.
That's why we are getting a Fleet Gal-X, to go along with the Fleet Galaxy. It's going to make all of you weirdos happy. What is wrong with you. It is just like the 3-pack ships.
My guess is the Fleet Gal-X is just going to be another FACR/Fleet Excelsior copy, but instead of Transwarp Engines we get a Cloak, Saucer Separation and Cannons.
Details of this class would be retained well into the 31st century, when Captain Jonathan Archer and Lieutenant Malcolm Reed viewed schematics on the class in the 22nd century while accessing the database belonging to temporal agent Daniels. (ENT: "Shockwave")
The Excelsior was a giant leap forward for Starfleet in ship designs, and was basically a long standing flagship because "It did it all", and was far ahead of its time.
Design wise, The Excelsior is a highly modular ship, and apparently it can even Saucer Separate: According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Sketchbook: The Movies, the additional impulse engines were added to provide the ship with stronger engines, which would be needed when the saucer detached. This corresponds with the inclusion of a battle bridge on MSD appearing on the Enterprise-B bridge in Generations.
More quotes: With the impending threat of the Dominion against the Federation, Starfleet began to experiment, in 2372, with performing a refit on the Excelsior-class USS Lakota. Upgrades included improved phaser emplacements, quantum torpedoes, and other improvements to make the ship competitive with such ship designs as the Defiant-class. (DS9: "Paradise Lost")
Which explains why we have a T4 Excelsior at the very least. If it is on the level of a Defiant-Class (and not the Sao-Paulo Class), but there isn't a huge difference between the Sao-Paulo and the Defiant in DS9.
If would like to think that:
The Excelsior Refit didn't happen until the DS9 era (2370s / Lakota), it would make sense for the Retrofit to come out much later, possibly in STO's time. Sure, there was a different appearance in the ST Movies and shows, but Armament Refits are different than hull refits.
a Retrofit would imply whole new systems to the Excelsior, which would be something totally different. (I'm pushing it there tho).
Because the Gal was retrofit into the Gal-X for being a combat ship.
I don't get it, these people want everything. The Galaxy wasn't a warship, the Galaxy-X was a warship.
That's why we are getting a Fleet Gal-X, to go along with the Fleet Galaxy. It's going to make all of you weirdos happy. What is wrong with you. It is just like the 3-pack ships.
My guess is the Fleet Gal-X is just going to be another FACR/Fleet Excelsior copy, but instead of Transwarp Engines we get a Cloak, Saucer Separation and Cannons.
Why can't you be happy with that?
Galaxy = Operations Galaxy-X = Combat
.
i am ok with that, and most of people in the thread are, don't put everyone in the same bag please.
we, weirdos, would greatly apreciate:D
but, sorry this is not like a 3pack ship there is no set power with the console and you don't have a science version of the galaxy, when cryptic do that then you can talk about it as a pack.
Which explains why we have a T4 Excelsior at the very least. If it is on the level of a Defiant-Class (and not the Sao-Paulo Class), but there isn't a huge difference between the Sao-Paulo and the Defiant in DS9.
afaik there is only a tier 3 and tier 5 exelsior, not tier4
first off, the galaxy was chosen as the flagship of the federation, this is a military term meaning it is the best and most powerful ship in the fleet.
Um, per Gene Roddenberry (and backed up by numerous lines in TNG - and I agree, it's ridiculous); remember that Star Fleet is NOT a military organization, so that part of your argument is moot right there (if we're sticking to ST canon that is. )
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Every ship that is considered T5 needs to be an asset to a team in it's own manner and I'm afraid that the Galaxy has become more of a liability in such circumistances.
And this is the main issue many of the people in this thread have with the ship. We want to use our not so cheap Tier 5 ship as an asset when playing with other people. I just had a conversation in game couple of days ago with a fleetie of mine, and he was laughing at someone bringing a Galaxy-R into a STF. That's the issue right there - when they see this ship, people consider it a liability and a burden.
Blame game design.
Current STF's don't require a tank.
There, I said it. It's actually easier and more comfortable to bring all escorts and as much firepower as you can.
Since you respawn anyway, there's hardly any downside to risky gameplay.
So basically the problem is not the Galaxy. The problem is a role that is not being used or needed.
The problem is game design that puts too much emphasis on damage and creates too much difference in dps amongst the ships, due to huge damage modifiers (30% per console - really?!) and stacking of damage modifiers (5 consoles, plus attack pattern alpha, plus omega, or beta, and go down fighting, and rapid fire, and dual heavy cannons..).
Now imagine escorts couldn't be made pretty much un-hittable like the JHAS, imagine ship classes were just a bit closer dps-wise, and imagine there was no respawn or at least a bigger respawn penalty in STF's..
That is essentially asking for the ship to be turned into a warship. Even you suggest:
When you suggest that, what Boff and console slots you looking for? Tactical perhaps?
You're right, its not a warship. However, this is a warship kind of game. Yes the galaxy has a wonderful setup for tanking. Unfortunately tanking is moot. Starships don't have a taunt, and healing doesn't pull aggro. The only thing left is damage. Whoever does the most, will be the target. his leaves little room or need for a tank. Almost any other ship in the game, including most other cruisers, are able to completely out damage the Gal, and most can out damage the Dreadnaught as well.
Its not really a question of people wanting to turn the thing into a warship. Most of us just want the role the ship was built for to have a purpose in this game so that we may have a reason to fly it.
The easiest solution I can think of to fix the Gal (fleet version at least) is to just make the Lt Com. Engineer into a Universal. That way, the people who like the current setup (for whatever reason) can keep it, while others can have some room to play with it.
I hate to break it to some people but the only ships ever designated/portrayed in shows or films as "warships" was the Defiant class and Prometheus.
That's about it.
This applies to the Sovereign, Excelsior et al. None of those were warships, because... as this may surprise you... Starfleet is about exploration, rather than warfare.
Unfortunately, STO isn't about exploration, it's primarily about pew pew pew and blowing things up. So where you had ALL Starfleet ships being capable of most things, with some differentiation and power. We now have a broken trinity system, season after season of protracted DPS inflation (where that seemingly only matters) and escorts basically able to tank elite cubes AND have massive DPS over both other classes.
This is exactly related to this Galaxy thread, and while the nay sayers (some of which obviously have their own agenda), dismissing the Galaxy because it wasn't a warship, or quote some other reference that supports their position that the ship should remains as it is, completely miss the forest for the trees.
The Galaxy is probably the most significant example of the trinity failure in STO. Period. Anyone with a keen eye and understanding of how the trinity *should* work understands what the Galaxy is SUPPOSED to be for. It would be the best tank healer in the game. But as we all know THIS. DOES. NOT. MATTER. for a trinity that DOESN'T work and has been constantly been eroded season after season.
So before you start getting into a hissy fit about how much us whiney Galaxy class fans are for trying to promote a ship we love to gain as much damage potential as other cruisers, remember that the games structure IS borked, and requesting the ship OR the structure of the game be changed in respect of this is NOT unfair, unjustified or incorrect.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Lag Watch:
Delta Rising: Warning
Anniversary Event: Severe
Iconian Season: Critical
I think people are starting to forget the issue here. Lets skip all the what the galaxy is/was etc for a moment and just look at the game as is, k?
Is the galaxy in its current form useful? not really. Is it easily the worst boff/console layout of all the cruisers? Yep. Before someone says well some ships gotta be last place, no no ship has to be last place unless you let it be.
Now why do people ask for more tac stuff? Cause they want a warship galaxy? Or is it because this game is built around dps thus making a ship with 0 dps fairly useless. Oh hit that nail on the head eh?
Sci ships get away with low tac because of sci debuffing, a completely eng heavy cruiser does 1 thing, not die easy. While not going down like a $2 wh*re is a good thing, there comes a point when your just a zombie cruiser that wont die, but that gets you what? Everyone just ignores you and focus on a diff target.
And in a game with no threat pulling abilities aka taunts, tanking comes down to threat skills which is based off, here is the shocker DMG! So tell me how this cruiser is supposed to be worth its weight in salt?
Forget the shows etc, its an Iconic ship but its dead weight in any group activity vs any other T5/fleet cruiser. Its just a fact.
its like having to biggest and most expansive scientific, diplomatic and crew facilities takes away from it having the largest most powerful phaser array by a factor of 2, or that it has the 2 most burst capable torpedo launchers, that we have never seen the upper limit of their volume of fire.
hate to break it to you guys, but if there was ever this era of extended peace and complacency, it was pre galaxy class, from 2293 to 2350 at the latest. during the galaxy class development there was a multi decade cardassian war, several tzenkethy wars, and a tholian war. its believable that a juggernaut like the federation was bogged down for an extended period by these conflicts if their main ship of the lines were 50 year old excelsior, with only a handful of state of the art ambassadors around, or off in deep space exploring which is more likely. ships like the galaxy, nebula, akira, steamrunner, intrepid, norway, saber and soverign are all a response to the problems the federation had with an antique underpowered fleet starting as early as the 2340s. ships arent designed and mass produced over night, to say all those ships were from the ground up made in 1-5 years because of the borg is ludicrous. the only ship thats believably because of the borg is the defiant.
the enterprise D was a guilded flagship, despite being heavily armed it was set up for exploration and diplomacy. since 70% of the interior is modular, thats just 1 configuration it could have. in yesterdays enterprise you got a glimpse at what a galaxy class setup as an actual battleship would look like.
the big D was not sent down to the cardasian sectors to mop up that war and create the demilitarized zone, like at least 1 nebula was. we saw how effective a tactical force that comparable to a galaxy ship was in the wounded. most of the series it seemed to be hanging around the romulan boarder posturing there, but not going to any front line, it was not set up to fight a war, but could certainly do battle with its basic arsenal.
if this game had anything to do with canon, large ships like this would deal the most damage, have the highest power levels, and MUCH higher hitpoint then the smaller ships. but since this is a game everything has to be sort of equal, regardless the galaxy we get in game is quite literally the worst cruiser, nay the worst ship in game. which is a shame, because it should be one of the best, at least the most versitile.
Comments
No, I was talking about people who left the game and no longer participate. He was speaking as if changing the Galaxy would change that. PvPers are actually playing the game, and a much larger number than the folks who would only come back if the Galaxy gets changed.
Keep calm, and continue firing photon torpedoes.
Nope. There EQUAL evidence to show that it was a mediocre ship at best, but WHENEVER that is brought up, you Galaxy Fanboys whine "it's the writer's fault" on a TELEVISION Show where EVERYTHING PLOT WISE IS "THE WRITERS FAULT".
So I guess that makes you a hypocrite as well because if I'm not mistaken, you are one of those people that scrams "it's the writers' fault" when things don't go your way regarding the Ent-D.
i don't like the treatement done to the galaxy class in this game and i won't quit for just that.
they are player in less good condition, the one that want a tier5 constitution and could only fly it in tier2.
did they quit for that? i don't think so
nope, you got it all wrong.
never veraticus said that a fix to the galaxy ship will bring back player, he was speaking about the balance in this game concerning the trinity, and that if cryptic fix that it could bring back player that want a balanced game.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
the performance of the enterprise D ranges so absurdly far that when it performed poorly like in rascals and generations its a huge plot hole compared to how it did in the wounded, qwho, the survivors
hey polaron!!! your back!
i see that you didn't want to respond my question because we haven't respond to one of your.
can you please remind me what that question is, i will give an answer to the best of my capabilities and knownlege, but you will have to answer mine after.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
What neo1nx said
There is no such thing as "balanced." There's always going to be something people can use to get an edge on others, and the needs of PvP are quite different from PvE. Not to mention, no one can agree on what "balanced" even means. Demanding "balance" is demanding "it should work my way."
Keep calm, and continue firing photon torpedoes.
Demanding balance means demanding a situation where everyone can participate according to his class/ship. It means having more than one viable build and class
But that means people may need to do some work to get a suiable ship/build combination. Most of the people crying balance just want to be able to do it all... which can be done, they just want to do it all more than others it seems.
no, this game have been created on a trinity model wich, right from the star, implie a balanced.
there is no debate about that.
now, ultimate balanced is not possible, for that i agree if that what you mean, but you can still get a model that try to get as closed as possible, right now it is going in the opposite direction.
and we also don't need to get a definition of balanced to known about what we are speaking about.
when you see a class of ship that dish the best damage and in the mean time have the same potential to tank than the "tanking class" ship, you don't need to be agreed on a definition to see that their is something wrong.
gecko himself recognize in the podcast ugc interview that escort right now are too tanky.
are you gonna accuse him that he want things to work his way?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
No, it doesn't. Look at WoW. Even games who've been around forever (in MMO terms) can't get "balance" out of the trinity.
You're right, there is no debate. Because it ain't gonna happen. "Balance" is a utopian ideal, and we know how that works out.
See, that's a more valid argument to make. I disagree that it's "going in the opposite direction", but I can see your point of vew.
That doesn't even make sense.
Where the hell are you getting that? I never "accused" anyone of anything. And I never said ships didn't need any change. The argument was they should all be "balanced," which isn't going to happen.
I agree that certain ships are overpowered, and some are underpowered. I'd like to see that fixed. But that doesn't mean what I feel needs fixed is what you feel needs fixed. Hence, why we're not going to get even close to "balanced." No one agrees on what should be done.
Except I think everyone agrees the Excelsior & bugship are way overpowered.
Keep calm, and continue firing photon torpedoes.
You want to do it all? I have three words for you. Fleet Tor'kaht Battlecruiser.
1st_ sry for mi english
2nd_ u talk about the chapter where the mirror defiant give a lot of figth agains that negvar at very close range so this way can avoid get hit because lose almost al shield power and the armor get a lot of dmg ? that chapter were if they try to get out will be vaporized for one more shoot? but for luck get the support of a raider (a pergrine if im rigth) who help to made the negvar retreat? because the defiant alone CANT DOIT i see this chapter 2 days ago
but dont worry
But there are two things to remember about the Galaxy.
First, as she was originally designed, she's a ship of exploration. Strong shields, limited weapons and lots of room for science labs of all kinds, as well as family quartering and tons space for downtime. I mean if you look at the Galaxy, she has 30 some odd decks and fully half of them are for crew quartering and downtime. Hardly the warship everyone seems to think it is.
Second, by 2409 the aging design has been far superseded by newer, more advanced vessels. In essence she's a nearly 50 year old antique. And before you bring up the Excelsior class, remember, they build far more of those than they did Galaxies. Also, beign smaller, they are easier to gut and refit.
The Galaxy is a good class. She's just not the belle of the ball any more.
as for upgrades it was built for a 100yr hull life and was ment to be upgraded and adaptable with i belive 60-70% reconfeguable acording to the tech manual. with its size and large warp core it could easly keep up with newer tech(and i dont care how nice the excel was no way can a 100+ ship design out shoot an brand new top of the line ship that was more advanced from the start and ment to be upgraded) it woulnt be as good as a sov but wouldnt be too far behind tac wise it just coulnt turn or accel worth a dam
ps yes someone in this thread called the galaxy a plesure ship once
That said, I will admit that I do like the Galaxy even as it is. The thing in indestructible, especially the fleet version. Literally never dies, it's tanking abilities are epic. If I want to get it blown up, I have to pick a fight in Ker'rat with a couple of Tor'kahts and BoPs. I kinda' like that on my Feds., especially if I take into consideration that I have children and families on board the Galaxy.
However, we're playing an MMO here and there is this issue with the usefullness of each member of a team working on a STF, PvE, PvP or whatever. Every ship that is considered T5 needs to be an asset to a team in it's own manner and I'm afraid that the Galaxy has become more of a liability in such circumistances. And this is the main issue many of the people in this thread have with the ship. We want to use our not so cheap Tier 5 ship as an asset when playing with other people. I just had a conversation in game couple of days ago with a fleetie of mine, and he was laughing at someone bringing a Galaxy-R into a STF. That's the issue right there - when they see this ship, people consider it a liability and a burden.
Now, I assume there are couple of ways to fix this:
- Change the Galaxy Boff and console layout.
- Make real tanking (not the escort like) viable in PvE and end-game, just as healing rather than everything being a DPS fiesta. Good point to start from would be the CE event and how things are rated there. (my prefered way to handle the issue)
- Do something to enhance the engineering Boff abilities, especially low level ones and the usefulness of eng. consoles.
that a rather strange point of view, so if ship class aren't "balanced" what is the point in choosing one or the other? let just get the best one!
if one class have better asset than an other, why bother choosing the other in theory?
escort ship, due to multiple little changes that have been made to the game (reputation are among them ) have combine the firepower that is the asset of this class to tanking abilities that is the asset of the cruiser.
this was not like this 2 years ago, the game have slowly slide to this state and here appear the imbalance.
and the lead designer of the game is agree, the escort should not be that tanky regarding the firepower that they can dish out.
it just common sense, not something that need multiple opinion to then reach a common ground and applie a fix.
a entire ship class can not combine the asset of 2, period.
this principle can not be debate.
the way to applie the fix can, however.
and btw, i don't find the exelsior to be overpowered ( if that was in comparison to the galaxy x for example i could agree but that is an other debate )
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
you mean, by the exelsior and ambassador class, both newer and more advanced indeed, at least that how it feel in the game^^
but yes the galaxy design is getting old, they are what? 7years difference between this ship and the sovereign class? an eternity indeed.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
I don't get it, these people want everything. The Galaxy wasn't a warship, the Galaxy-X was a warship.
That's why we are getting a Fleet Gal-X, to go along with the Fleet Galaxy. It's going to make all of you weirdos happy. What is wrong with you. It is just like the 3-pack ships.
My guess is the Fleet Gal-X is just going to be another FACR/Fleet Excelsior copy, but instead of Transwarp Engines we get a Cloak, Saucer Separation and Cannons.
Why can't you be happy with that?
Galaxy = Operations
Galaxy-X = Combat
Also:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Excelsior_class
Details of this class would be retained well into the 31st century, when Captain Jonathan Archer and Lieutenant Malcolm Reed viewed schematics on the class in the 22nd century while accessing the database belonging to temporal agent Daniels. (ENT: "Shockwave")
The Excelsior was a giant leap forward for Starfleet in ship designs, and was basically a long standing flagship because "It did it all", and was far ahead of its time.
Design wise, The Excelsior is a highly modular ship, and apparently it can even Saucer Separate:
According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Sketchbook: The Movies, the additional impulse engines were added to provide the ship with stronger engines, which would be needed when the saucer detached. This corresponds with the inclusion of a battle bridge on MSD appearing on the Enterprise-B bridge in Generations.
More quotes:
With the impending threat of the Dominion against the Federation, Starfleet began to experiment, in 2372, with performing a refit on the Excelsior-class USS Lakota. Upgrades included improved phaser emplacements, quantum torpedoes, and other improvements to make the ship competitive with such ship designs as the Defiant-class. (DS9: "Paradise Lost")
Which explains why we have a T4 Excelsior at the very least. If it is on the level of a Defiant-Class (and not the Sao-Paulo Class), but there isn't a huge difference between the Sao-Paulo and the Defiant in DS9.
If would like to think that:
The Excelsior Refit didn't happen until the DS9 era (2370s / Lakota), it would make sense for the Retrofit to come out much later, possibly in STO's time. Sure, there was a different appearance in the ST Movies and shows, but Armament Refits are different than hull refits.
a Retrofit would imply whole new systems to the Excelsior, which would be something totally different. (I'm pushing it there tho).
The flagship right now in the game is the Odyssey.
The most prevalent suggestions are:
1- Moar tactical consoles!
2- Moar tactical BOFF slots!
3- Moar Deeps!
That is essentially asking for the ship to be turned into a warship. Even you suggest:
When you suggest that, what Boff and console slots you looking for? Tactical perhaps?
i am ok with that, and most of people in the thread are, don't put everyone in the same bag please.
we, weirdos, would greatly apreciate:D
but, sorry this is not like a 3pack ship there is no set power with the console and you don't have a science version of the galaxy, when cryptic do that then you can talk about it as a pack.
afaik there is only a tier 3 and tier 5 exelsior, not tier4
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
Um, per Gene Roddenberry (and backed up by numerous lines in TNG - and I agree, it's ridiculous); remember that Star Fleet is NOT a military organization, so that part of your argument is moot right there (if we're sticking to ST canon that is.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I was trying to be comparative. The T4 ships are very similar to the Lv 40 T5 ships in time frame.
Blame game design.
Current STF's don't require a tank.
There, I said it. It's actually easier and more comfortable to bring all escorts and as much firepower as you can.
Since you respawn anyway, there's hardly any downside to risky gameplay.
So basically the problem is not the Galaxy. The problem is a role that is not being used or needed.
The problem is game design that puts too much emphasis on damage and creates too much difference in dps amongst the ships, due to huge damage modifiers (30% per console - really?!) and stacking of damage modifiers (5 consoles, plus attack pattern alpha, plus omega, or beta, and go down fighting, and rapid fire, and dual heavy cannons..).
Now imagine escorts couldn't be made pretty much un-hittable like the JHAS, imagine ship classes were just a bit closer dps-wise, and imagine there was no respawn or at least a bigger respawn penalty in STF's..
You're right, its not a warship. However, this is a warship kind of game. Yes the galaxy has a wonderful setup for tanking. Unfortunately tanking is moot. Starships don't have a taunt, and healing doesn't pull aggro. The only thing left is damage. Whoever does the most, will be the target. his leaves little room or need for a tank. Almost any other ship in the game, including most other cruisers, are able to completely out damage the Gal, and most can out damage the Dreadnaught as well.
Its not really a question of people wanting to turn the thing into a warship. Most of us just want the role the ship was built for to have a purpose in this game so that we may have a reason to fly it.
The easiest solution I can think of to fix the Gal (fleet version at least) is to just make the Lt Com. Engineer into a Universal. That way, the people who like the current setup (for whatever reason) can keep it, while others can have some room to play with it.
That's about it.
This applies to the Sovereign, Excelsior et al. None of those were warships, because... as this may surprise you... Starfleet is about exploration, rather than warfare.
Unfortunately, STO isn't about exploration, it's primarily about pew pew pew and blowing things up. So where you had ALL Starfleet ships being capable of most things, with some differentiation and power. We now have a broken trinity system, season after season of protracted DPS inflation (where that seemingly only matters) and escorts basically able to tank elite cubes AND have massive DPS over both other classes.
This is exactly related to this Galaxy thread, and while the nay sayers (some of which obviously have their own agenda), dismissing the Galaxy because it wasn't a warship, or quote some other reference that supports their position that the ship should remains as it is, completely miss the forest for the trees.
The Galaxy is probably the most significant example of the trinity failure in STO. Period. Anyone with a keen eye and understanding of how the trinity *should* work understands what the Galaxy is SUPPOSED to be for. It would be the best tank healer in the game. But as we all know THIS. DOES. NOT. MATTER. for a trinity that DOESN'T work and has been constantly been eroded season after season.
So before you start getting into a hissy fit about how much us whiney Galaxy class fans are for trying to promote a ship we love to gain as much damage potential as other cruisers, remember that the games structure IS borked, and requesting the ship OR the structure of the game be changed in respect of this is NOT unfair, unjustified or incorrect.
Lag Watch:
Delta Rising: Warning
Anniversary Event: Severe
Iconian Season: Critical
Is the galaxy in its current form useful? not really. Is it easily the worst boff/console layout of all the cruisers? Yep. Before someone says well some ships gotta be last place, no no ship has to be last place unless you let it be.
Now why do people ask for more tac stuff? Cause they want a warship galaxy? Or is it because this game is built around dps thus making a ship with 0 dps fairly useless. Oh hit that nail on the head eh?
Sci ships get away with low tac because of sci debuffing, a completely eng heavy cruiser does 1 thing, not die easy. While not going down like a $2 wh*re is a good thing, there comes a point when your just a zombie cruiser that wont die, but that gets you what? Everyone just ignores you and focus on a diff target.
And in a game with no threat pulling abilities aka taunts, tanking comes down to threat skills which is based off, here is the shocker DMG! So tell me how this cruiser is supposed to be worth its weight in salt?
Forget the shows etc, its an Iconic ship but its dead weight in any group activity vs any other T5/fleet cruiser. Its just a fact.
hate to break it to you guys, but if there was ever this era of extended peace and complacency, it was pre galaxy class, from 2293 to 2350 at the latest. during the galaxy class development there was a multi decade cardassian war, several tzenkethy wars, and a tholian war. its believable that a juggernaut like the federation was bogged down for an extended period by these conflicts if their main ship of the lines were 50 year old excelsior, with only a handful of state of the art ambassadors around, or off in deep space exploring which is more likely. ships like the galaxy, nebula, akira, steamrunner, intrepid, norway, saber and soverign are all a response to the problems the federation had with an antique underpowered fleet starting as early as the 2340s. ships arent designed and mass produced over night, to say all those ships were from the ground up made in 1-5 years because of the borg is ludicrous. the only ship thats believably because of the borg is the defiant.
the enterprise D was a guilded flagship, despite being heavily armed it was set up for exploration and diplomacy. since 70% of the interior is modular, thats just 1 configuration it could have. in yesterdays enterprise you got a glimpse at what a galaxy class setup as an actual battleship would look like.
the big D was not sent down to the cardasian sectors to mop up that war and create the demilitarized zone, like at least 1 nebula was. we saw how effective a tactical force that comparable to a galaxy ship was in the wounded. most of the series it seemed to be hanging around the romulan boarder posturing there, but not going to any front line, it was not set up to fight a war, but could certainly do battle with its basic arsenal.
if this game had anything to do with canon, large ships like this would deal the most damage, have the highest power levels, and MUCH higher hitpoint then the smaller ships. but since this is a game everything has to be sort of equal, regardless the galaxy we get in game is quite literally the worst cruiser, nay the worst ship in game. which is a shame, because it should be one of the best, at least the most versitile.