Why don't you guys just fly a Fleet Nova? It has at least a Lt. Cmd. Tactical Slot.
And the big Galaxys not..
Think of this: the little Science Fleet Nova has a Lt. Cmd. Tactical Slot....
This little ship...
Muahahaha :
*runs away from this thread to avoid rage*
ya! but no one said that this ship is a scimitar clone ( nova )
but giving a second lt commander to any galaxy would make them completely too much overthetop overpowered in hell!!
and render any scimitar a joke in comparison you known.
that also why you will never see a mirror galaxy with a lt commander tact or sci....it can be!
it is written in the holy balanced bible of the game, everything depend on it.
if that fall, everything collapse, any balance, sense of reality, credibility... everything!
the only galaxy allowed to have 2 ltcommander boff and more are npc ship.
of course, how could they pose any threat if they have the bo layout of the player ship, especially with their turn and inertia.
now let think about it for a second, let replace the mirror galaxy x of the mirror event with the one the players got, would be funny isn't it? even if you keep the hull and shield mod of the npc version!
hehe, a galaxy with 2 lt commander, now really? playable by human being, hohoho!
creazy thaught!! you! hohohoh!
ya! but no one said that this ship is a scimitar clone ( nova )
but giving a second lt commander to any galaxy would make them completely too much overthetop overpowered in hell!!
and render any scimitar a joke in comparison you known.
that also why you will never see a mirror galaxy with a lt commander tact or sci....it can be!
it is written in the holy balanced bible of the game, everything depend on it.
if that fall, everything collapse, any balance, sense of reality, credibility... everything!
the only galaxy allowed to have 2 ltcommander boff and more are npc ship.
of course, how could they pose any threat if they have the bo layout of the player ship, especially with their turn and inertia.
now let think about it for a second, let replace the mirror galaxy x of the mirror event with the one the players got, would be funny isn't it? even if you keep the hull and shield mod of the npc version!
hehe, a galaxy with 2 lt commander, now really? playable by human being, hohoho!
creazy thaught!! you! hohohoh!
I have to say that I never really was a big fan of the Galaxy design. Based on the TV show, the STO Galaxys should have 5 CMD Universal slots because she survived everything where other ships got destroyed. :rolleyes:
I have to say that I never really was a big fan of the Galaxy design. Based on the TV show, the STO Galaxys should have 5 CMD Universal slots because she survived everything where other ships got destroyed. :rolleyes:
well, people that hate the galaxy will argue with you that it got destroyed by a single bop then:D
Then i posed this question to them, during the run of the TNG - VOY name me one Federation ship excluding the Ent-E/Sovereign (As she was not used during the T.V run) that was more powerful than a Galaxy class ?
booo.. that's easy.. that would be the Janeway Class.. its esp OP when the Janeway class has its hair-bun messed up.. in that mode, no one survives, not even the Iconians
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
booo.. that's easy.. that would be the Janeway Class.. its esp OP when the Janeway class has its hair-bun messed up.. in that mode, no one survives, not even the Iconians
well, people that hate the galaxy will argue with you that it got destroyed by a single bop then:D
Which is a bull***t reason to dislike the class.
The only reason the Duras sisters pull off that stunt, was the bug planted in LaForge's VISOR. They essentially used what amounted to a cheat code to get past the shields. Then got lucky with some solid hits on the stardrive section.
I also get irked when people use this incident to try to prove Riker as some sort of incompetent. Which, or course, isn't the case.
The Duras sisters, based on what was written and shown, just got VERY lucky in that movie.
Then i posed this question to them, during the run of the TNG - VOY name me one Federation ship excluding the Ent-E/Sovereign (As she was not used during the T.V run) that was more powerful than a Galaxy class ?
The fleet channel went silent and i'm still after 2 days waiting for a response
I think i won the argument that the Galaxy during the this period was the Fed's most powerful starship.
Oh, this is WAY too easy. If you define "more powerful" as win to loss ratios show on screen against opponents of the same size or greater, we have the following ships:
Sovereign, Defiant, Prometheus, Voyager. Heck, I would even venture to add the ORIGINAL Enterprise from TOS, given how much better it stood up to it opponents than the Ent-D did.
You guys REALY need to review the TNG episodes. The Ent-D was far too often getting its TRIBBLE kicked. One thing that I notice abut you guys here is that ANY episode that shows it getting a "whuppin'", you want to stick your fingers in your ears and say "La-La-La" and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does.
You know, I was watching "Darmok" the other day, and I just shook my head when the Tamarians were able to TOTALLY demolish the Ent-D forward shields within three seconds with ONLY a FEW shots! When the Ent-D fired back with three Phaser shots, guess what the result was on the Tamarian vessel? Nothing. The Ent-D was TOTALLY at the mercy of the Tamarians, and as usual, it's offensive capabilities were totally ineffective.
So let's recap: Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail
Ent-D vs. average Romulan Warbird ("Tin Man"): Fail
Ent-D vs. various probes ("Arsenal of Freedom", "The Nth Degree") Fail
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail
Even in those cases where the Galaxy shields were disabled or not effective ( "The Jem'Hadar", "Generations"), their OFFENSIVE capabilities was usually ineffective. They weren't able to penetrate the 20 year old BOP's shields, nor were they able to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship, even after transferring shield power to weapons AND with the assistance of two runabouts. As I've said before, it just couldn't get the job done.
I know that you guys and gals want to pretend that these episodes and situations don't exist, but they do, and they are Star Trek Canon, whether you like those results or not.
I do think that part of the problem is the nature of TNG in general. Unfortunately for you Galaxy lovers, TNG was the only series in the franchise that far to often aimed DOWNWARD with it's portrayal of its "hero ship" (Galaxy) battle capacities, as opposed to aiming UPWARD as the other series in the franchise did for their "hero ships". In TNG, it's been SAID that the Galaxy was the most powerful ship in the Fleet at that time ("The Best of Both Worlds"), but what is SHOWN, is that this so called "flagship" can routinely get its butt kicked by AVERAGE ships from other races ("Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Jem'Hadar)).
In TOS, the original Enterprise was SHOWN as be able to withstand the equivalent of 450 photon torpedos ("The Changeling"), Asteroid disintergrating weapons ("Balance of Terror"), planet disintergraters ("The Doomsday Machine"), simultaneous weapons attacks from three warships ("The Deadly Years"), and so on.
So, not only did they basically SAY that the Constitution class was a bad TRIBBLE for its time, they actually SHOWED that it was, even on a 1960's budget. However, the Ent-D has been potrayed as being unable to withstand the simultaneous firepower of two smaller B'Rel class BOP's, let along three Romulan Warbirds. Hence, it doesn't display that same level of "bad-assery" as some of the other ships in the franchise.
The other shows in the franchise (DS9, Voyager, Enterprise) also aimed upward, with even Voyager showing a better damage success rate against the Borg than the Ent-D, which is why you see the Intrepid class lovers complain about how the ship has been portrayed in STO. Again, TNG established this spotty portrayal of the Galaxy class, and has continued this portrayal with most of the video games that it shows up in.
Now, I don't know if this TNG direction to FAR TOO OFTEN portray the "Flagship" as the "underdog" as opposed to the "champion" came from Gene Roddenberry, "the writers'", or both. However, as I said before, the problem for you Galaxy lovers is that over the DECADES, this has become Star Trek Canon, and whether you like those results or not, and that's just the way that it is. So whining about "it's the writers' fault" will do you ABSOUTELY no good. This decision to go in this direction was made DECADES ago, and they are NOT going to change. If nothing else, the last four years of this game should have shown you THAT.
So getting back to your original point, yes, their are SEVERAL ships in Star Trek that are SHOWN to be more powerful, which I have already outlined.
OK i guess you're not a fan of the class lets review the examples you just gave.
So let's recap: Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail as this was 1st contact with this race its hard to tell how any other ship would stand up against them
Ent-D vs. average Romulan Warbird ("Tin Man"): Fail
[COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Romulans decloaked and hit the Ent-D with a sneak attack weakening the shields to the point where they were not in a position to engage. [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs. various probes ("Arsenal of Freedom", "The Nth Degree") Fail [COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Those probes were created to be better and stronger each time they were destroyed. Even the away team failed on that one [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail
[COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Yup pathetic episode and a fail on the part of the crew. [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail Shields were comprimised direct hits to the hull.
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail Again 1st contact with a species that was unknown to the federation and could shoot through Fed shields. The Defiant actually did worse during her 1st engagement with a attack ship
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail Considering a fleet of 40 ships made up of different classes were all turned to space dust the Galaxy did pretty well to not be blown up
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail And this was the Borg and their superior technology not the fairies in space Voyager Borg.
So with the examples you gave only 1 of these actually stands up and that is the Episode Rascals, However it was essential to the plot that the Ent-D was captured for young Picard and co to win her back.
Also the TOS and TNG were 2 different ends of the spectrum. The TOS was from the swinging 60's and we know why it was called the Swinging 60's as every show had people taking a swing at each other. Too much testosterone back then
TNG tried to be different in showing words rather than Kirks fist and torn shirt could win a argument or conflict.
The Defiant did pop a few Attack ships and Breen Frigates and BOP's but turned tail and ran when faced with something heavier. Example way of the warrior, Vor'cha decloaks Defiant beams up Cardies and runs back to station.
You say the Galaxies weapons were ineffective. In most of the 1st contact situations i'll give you that, The ship had to be put in danger for Superboy Wesley to save the day with his techno genius.
This is really where the issue of the weak Galaxy comes from and that is the message behind the TNG show. It wasn't cowboys in space like the TOS. DS9 was a war show so the Defiant had to be shown to blown stuff up. Voyager was lost on the other side of the quadrant so had to be shown as capable. The Galaxy is a victim of Gene going through his hippie, put flowers in the gun barrel phase which until he was push aside portrayed the show as everyone can get along if we talk it out.
Theres also a reason why the Promethues, Ent-E, Voyager and Defiant appeared to have better combat abilities, The introduction of CGI and better special effects. Heck The Original TOS series when the Enterprise shot at something it was usually a forward view of the ship firing phasers, no contact with another vessel. I think the doomsday machine was one of the few times phasers were shown to hit target
I am curious why you say the Defiant had a worse showing against its first encounter with the Jem Hadar Atack ship when the Galaxys first encounter ended with it exploding. At least the defiant flew home under its own power.
Oh, this is WAY too easy. If you define "more powerful" as win to loss ratios show on screen against opponents of the same size or greater, we have the following ships:
Sovereign, Defiant, Prometheus, Voyager. Heck, I would even venture to add the ORIGINAL Enterprise from TOS, given how much better it stood up to it opponents than the Ent-D did.
You guys REALY need to review the TNG episodes. The Ent-D was far too often getting its TRIBBLE kicked. One thing that I notice abut you guys here is that ANY episode that shows it getting a "whuppin'", you want to stick your fingers in your ears and say "La-La-La" and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does.
You know, I was watching "Darmok" the other day, and I just shook my head when the Tamarians were able to TOTALLY demolish the Ent-D forward shields within three seconds with ONLY a FEW shots! When the Ent-D fired back with three Phaser shots, guess what the result was on the Tamarian vessel? Nothing. The Ent-D was TOTALLY at the mercy of the Tamarians, and as usual, it's offensive capabilities were totally ineffective.
So let's recap: Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail
Ent-D vs. average Romulan Warbird ("Tin Man"): Fail
Ent-D vs. various probes ("Arsenal of Freedom", "The Nth Degree") Fail
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail
Even in those cases where the Galaxy shields were disabled or not effective ( "The Jem'Hadar", "Generations"), their OFFENSIVE capabilities was usually ineffective. They weren't able to penetrate the 20 year old BOP's shields, nor were they able to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship, even after transferring shield power to weapons AND with the assistance of two runabouts. As I've said before, it just couldn't get the job done.
I know that you guys and gals want to pretend that these episodes and situations don't exist, but they do, and they are Star Trek Canon, whether you like those results or not.
I do think that part of the problem is the nature of TNG in general. Unfortunately for you Galaxy lovers, TNG was the only series in the franchise that far to often aimed DOWNWARD with it's portrayal of its "hero ship" (Galaxy) battle capacities, as opposed to aiming UPWARD as the other series in the franchise did for their "hero ships". In TNG, it's been SAID that the Galaxy was the most powerful ship in the Fleet at that time ("The Best of Both Worlds"), but what is SHOWN, is that this so called "flagship" can routinely get its butt kicked by AVERAGE ships from other races ("Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Jem'Hadar)).
In TOS, the original Enterprise was SHOWN as be able to withstand the equivalent of 450 photon torpedos ("The Changeling"), Asteroid disintergrating weapons ("Balance of Terror"), planet disintergraters ("The Doomsday Machine"), simultaneous weapons attacks from three warships ("The Deadly Years"), and so on.
So, not only did they basically SAY that the Constitution class was a bad TRIBBLE for its time, they actually SHOWED that it was, even on a 1960's budget. However, the Ent-D has been potrayed as being unable to withstand the simultaneous firepower of two smaller B'Rel class BOP's, let along three Romulan Warbirds. Hence, it doesn't display that same level of "bad-assery" as some of the other ships in the franchise.
The other shows in the franchise (DS9, Voyager, Enterprise) also aimed upward, with even Voyager showing a better damage success rate against the Borg than the Ent-D, which is why you see the Intrepid class lovers complain about how the ship has been portrayed in STO. Again, TNG established this spotty portrayal of the Galaxy class, and has continued this portrayal with most of the video games that it shows up in.
Now, I don't know if this TNG direction to FAR TOO OFTEN portray the "Flagship" as the "underdog" as opposed to the "champion" came from Gene Roddenberry, "the writers'", or both. However, as I said before, the problem for you Galaxy lovers is that over the DECADES, this has become Star Trek Canon, and whether you like those results or not, and that's just the way that it is. So whining about "it's the writers' fault" will do you ABSOUTELY no good. This decision to go in this direction was made DECADES ago, and they are NOT going to change. If nothing else, the last four years of this game should have shown you THAT.
So getting back to your original point, yes, their are SEVERAL ships in Star Trek that are SHOWN to be more powerful, which I have already outlined.
poor writing to make a buck
Read a tech manual and you will see how poor the writing is
next to a galaxy a bop couldnt scratch its paint and would be destroyed in the first volley..its a scout not warship
not only that the bop is a kirk era ship/TOS
read a manual nd see how poor the writing really is
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I am curious why you say the Defiant had a worse showing against its first encounter with the Jem Hadar Atack ship when the Galaxys first encounter ended with it exploding. At least the defiant flew home under its own power.
Defiant was boarded and disabled within mins. The Galaxy was in retreat under her own power until she was rammed. Plus took a beating without shields and ablative armour for 10 mins or so.
Oh, this is WAY too easy. If you define "more powerful" as win to loss ratios show on screen against opponents of the same size or greater, we have the following ships:
Sovereign, Defiant, Prometheus, Voyager. Heck, I would even venture to add the ORIGINAL Enterprise from TOS, given how much better it stood up to it opponents than the Ent-D did.
You guys REALY need to review the TNG episodes. The Ent-D was far too often getting its TRIBBLE kicked. One thing that I notice abut you guys here is that ANY episode that shows it getting a "whuppin'", you want to stick your fingers in your ears and say "La-La-La" and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does.
You know, I was watching "Darmok" the other day, and I just shook my head when the Tamarians were able to TOTALLY demolish the Ent-D forward shields within three seconds with ONLY a FEW shots! When the Ent-D fired back with three Phaser shots, guess what the result was on the Tamarian vessel? Nothing. The Ent-D was TOTALLY at the mercy of the Tamarians, and as usual, it's offensive capabilities were totally ineffective.
So let's recap: Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail
Ent-D vs. average Romulan Warbird ("Tin Man"): Fail
Ent-D vs. various probes ("Arsenal of Freedom", "The Nth Degree") Fail
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail
Even in those cases where the Galaxy shields were disabled or not effective ( "The Jem'Hadar", "Generations"), their OFFENSIVE capabilities was usually ineffective. They weren't able to penetrate the 20 year old BOP's shields, nor were they able to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship, even after transferring shield power to weapons AND with the assistance of two runabouts. As I've said before, it just couldn't get the job done.
I know that you guys and gals want to pretend that these episodes and situations don't exist, but they do, and they are Star Trek Canon, whether you like those results or not.
I do think that part of the problem is the nature of TNG in general. Unfortunately for you Galaxy lovers, TNG was the only series in the franchise that far to often aimed DOWNWARD with it's portrayal of its "hero ship" (Galaxy) battle capacities, as opposed to aiming UPWARD as the other series in the franchise did for their "hero ships". In TNG, it's been SAID that the Galaxy was the most powerful ship in the Fleet at that time ("The Best of Both Worlds"), but what is SHOWN, is that this so called "flagship" can routinely get its butt kicked by AVERAGE ships from other races ("Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Jem'Hadar)).
In TOS, the original Enterprise was SHOWN as be able to withstand the equivalent of 450 photon torpedos ("The Changeling"), Asteroid disintergrating weapons ("Balance of Terror"), planet disintergraters ("The Doomsday Machine"), simultaneous weapons attacks from three warships ("The Deadly Years"), and so on.
So, not only did they basically SAY that the Constitution class was a bad TRIBBLE for its time, they actually SHOWED that it was, even on a 1960's budget. However, the Ent-D has been potrayed as being unable to withstand the simultaneous firepower of two smaller B'Rel class BOP's, let along three Romulan Warbirds. Hence, it doesn't display that same level of "bad-assery" as some of the other ships in the franchise.
The other shows in the franchise (DS9, Voyager, Enterprise) also aimed upward, with even Voyager showing a better damage success rate against the Borg than the Ent-D, which is why you see the Intrepid class lovers complain about how the ship has been portrayed in STO. Again, TNG established this spotty portrayal of the Galaxy class, and has continued this portrayal with most of the video games that it shows up in.
Now, I don't know if this TNG direction to FAR TOO OFTEN portray the "Flagship" as the "underdog" as opposed to the "champion" came from Gene Roddenberry, "the writers'", or both. However, as I said before, the problem for you Galaxy lovers is that over the DECADES, this has become Star Trek Canon, and whether you like those results or not, and that's just the way that it is. So whining about "it's the writers' fault" will do you ABSOUTELY no good. This decision to go in this direction was made DECADES ago, and they are NOT going to change. If nothing else, the last four years of this game should have shown you THAT.
So getting back to your original point, yes, their are SEVERAL ships in Star Trek that are SHOWN to be more powerful, which I have already outlined.
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail And this was the Borg and their superior technology not the fairies in space Voyager Borg.
But Borg they were nevertheless and Janeway-class (that what I call Voyager :P ) gave them a sound beating.. The only time a Borg ship was actually destroyed on screen was by Ent-E and Voyager("Dark Frontier" and the double Janeway-class version of the intrepid in the finale). The one in "best of both worlds" was just a self-destruct.. Though I have to say, in "Q-Who", Ent-D did vaporize a huge chunk of the cube.
At the end its all plot armor and bad writing, but unfortunately its also canon..
Logically however Galaxy should have shown to be more powerful that it had been.
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
That's a misconception as well. The design of the B'Rel is old, yet Klingons seem to not care about how old a design is since it can be refitted and reconstructed with newer tech. Starfleet however doesn't seem to use "replicas" but refit the hulls until they can't take the technology anymore and develop a new design instead. Klingons would only develop new designs if they need a ship with a different mission profile.
That's why we have around 5 canon Klingon ships and two dozen Starfleet designs - of course because the show and everything is human-centric and to appeal to the audience we need plenty of new shinies to entertain the crowd
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Defiant was boarded and disabled within mins. The Galaxy was in retreat under her own power until she was rammed. Plus took a beating without shields and ablative armour for 10 mins or so.
Again with the "La-La-La" factor? Lol! Predictable.
I see that you absolutely failed to refute ANY of the points that I made to your original posting, because you can't, and you know it. So now, you are attempting to use " the exception swallows the rule" fallacy instead. In that SAME "10 mins" that you are referring to, the Odyssey was UTTERLY unable to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship either. Again, I know that you want to pretend that this didn't happen, but it did, and all of your attempts misdirect those FACTS that I presented are useless.
I NEVER said that the OTHER "hero" ships from the other series NEVER had ANY issues. I CLEARLY said that their "win to loss ratio" of ships equal to their size or larger was SHOWN to be MUCH Better than the Galaxy class, which is another point that you can't refute. Just you saying "Uh-uh" is NOT a well argued method.
Also, going by your example, all you've just proved is that SOMETIMES, the Galaxy can take a pounding, but OFFENSIVELY, it can't do much else. But, isn't that EXACTLY the way that it's CURRENTLY potrayed in STO?
I know that you Galaxy lovers LOVE to constantly cite "Q-Who" regarding its weapons performance, but the problem for you is that, THAT was it's HIGH POINT. With ONE exception ("The Wounded"), every other TNG episode AFTER that showed it performance to be lackluster. For all the time that you can talk about what happened to the shields in "Generations", you ALWAYS "neglect" to talk about how its WEAPONS were TOTALLY ineffective against the BOP shields. So again, let's recap about its OFFENSIVE abilities.
Ent-D vs Borg ("Q-Who") -First a "pass" then a disastrous fail-phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs Cardassian ("The Wounded") - Pass (Although the Nebula Class Phoenix did just as well)
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
So OFFENSIVELY, the results are pretty much the same, with the exception of it performing well in "The Wounded". But even THEN, the Nebula Class Phoenix did JUST as well as the Ent-D, so nothing to distinguish it from being the "flagship".
So whether OFFENSIVELY OR DEFENSIVELY, its win to loss ratio is still horrible, and certainly NOT becoming of being called the "flagship" OR "the most powerful vessel in Starfleet".
OK i guess you're not a fan of the class lets review the examples you just gave.
So let's recap: Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail as this was 1st contact with this race its hard to tell how any other ship would stand up against them
Ent-D vs. average Romulan Warbird ("Tin Man"): Fail
[COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Romulans decloaked and hit the Ent-D with a sneak attack weakening the shields to the point where they were not in a position to engage. [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs. various probes ("Arsenal of Freedom", "The Nth Degree") Fail [COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Those probes were created to be better and stronger each time they were destroyed. Even the away team failed on that one [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail
[COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Yup pathetic episode and a fail on the part of the crew. [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail Shields were comprimised direct hits to the hull.
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail Again 1st contact with a species that was unknown to the federation and could shoot through Fed shields. The Defiant actually did worse during her 1st engagement with a attack ship
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail Considering a fleet of 40 ships made up of different classes were all turned to space dust the Galaxy did pretty well to not be blown up
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail And this was the Borg and their superior technology not the fairies in space Voyager Borg.
So with the examples you gave only 1 of these actually stands up and that is the Episode Rascals, However it was essential to the plot that the Ent-D was captured for young Picard and co to win her back.
Also the TOS and TNG were 2 different ends of the spectrum. The TOS was from the swinging 60's and we know why it was called the Swinging 60's as every show had people taking a swing at each other. Too much testosterone back then
TNG tried to be different in showing words rather than Kirks fist and torn shirt could win a argument or conflict.
The Defiant did pop a few Attack ships and Breen Frigates and BOP's but turned tail and ran when faced with something heavier. Example way of the warrior, Vor'cha decloaks Defiant beams up Cardies and runs back to station.
You say the Galaxies weapons were ineffective. In most of the 1st contact situations i'll give you that, The ship had to be put in danger for Superboy Wesley to save the day with his techno genius.
This is really where the issue of the weak Galaxy comes from and that is the message behind the TNG show. It wasn't cowboys in space like the TOS. DS9 was a war show so the Defiant had to be shown to blown stuff up. Voyager was lost on the other side of the quadrant so had to be shown as capable. The Galaxy is a victim of Gene going through his hippie, put flowers in the gun barrel phase which until he was push aside portrayed the show as everyone can get along if we talk it out.
Theres also a reason why the Promethues, Ent-E, Voyager and Defiant appeared to have better combat abilities, The introduction of CGI and better special effects. Heck The Original TOS series when the Enterprise shot at something it was usually a forward view of the ship firing phasers, no contact with another vessel. I think the doomsday machine was one of the few times phasers were shown to hit target
TOS routinely came against unknown ships and didn't ROUTINELY get the pasting that the Ent-D, and THEY were working on a 1960's budget. And the DIALOG that was presented ALSO indicated the strength of the TOS ship as well, so they didn't NEED to show the special effects, just the RESULTS of what was going on. So all of the excuses that you make for the poor performance of the Galaxy class are ALL speculative, and NOT CANON. And that's the problem, isn't it? The fact that this is the canon that, unfortunately you have to live with.
You Galaxy fans are NOT going to successfully "re-litigate" points and decisions regarding the portrayal of the Galaxy class vessels that was made DECADES ago. If that is your strategy, then it's no wonder why Cryptic/CBS feels empowered to just ignore YOUR interpretation of how you THINK that the Galaxy should be, rather than how it was SHOWN on screen.
I am curious why you say the Defiant had a worse showing against its first encounter with the Jem Hadar Atack ship when the Galaxys first encounter ended with it exploding. At least the defiant flew home under its own power.
And it was able to destroy a Jem'hadar ship in SECONDS. Something that the Galaxy class Odyssey couldn't do in "10 minutes" with shield power transferred to weapons AND with the assistance of two runabouts.
I know that you Galaxy lovers ALWAYS like to point out the perceived failures of other ships, but the problem for you is that, when a ship is being called the "Flagship" or "The most powerful ship in the fleet", it has a HIGHER STANDARD to live up to. By pointing at other ships and saying "Hey, we're just as bad as them" is NOT the way to live up to that standard. From what was SHOWN on screen, the Galaxy class did NOT live up to that HIGHER STANDARD regarding its battle capabilities.
If a food critic goes to a five star restaurant and the food is TRIBBLE, and the chef comes out and says that "Hey, we're just as bad as everyone else", do you think that the food critic is going to be impressed by that pathetic excuse? Nope. They're supposed to be BETTER than EVERYONE ELSE.
So if the Galaxy is "just as bad as other ships" then WHY is it the "flagship"? What is the point of having a "flagship" that is equally "bad" as the other ships, when you can just go ahead and manufacture those OTHER ships, in less time than the EQUALLY BAD Galaxy ship?
In TOS, although NEVER explicitly stated, it would be entirely possible to see the original Enterprise as a "flagship" based on its battle capabilities. Again, the Galaxy class was NOT SHOWN with the same reverence for its battle capabilities as the ships in the OTHER series (TOS, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise).
Read a tech manual and you will see how poor the writing is
next to a galaxy a bop couldnt scratch its paint and would be destroyed in the first volley..its a scout not warship
not only that the bop is a kirk era ship/TOS
read a manual nd see how poor the writing really is
But the problem is, poor writing or not, this is CANON, and it has been adhered to as such for more than the last TWO DECADES.
Had that been TOS, I do agree that the era equivalent BOP would have been destroy in seconds by the original Enterprise (See "Errand of Mercy").
However, TNG decided to go in another direction in showing the battle capabilities (or lack) of ITS "hero" ship, and THAT direction did it NO favors. However, for the Galaxy lovers to think that Cryptic is going to erase and rewrite a portrayal that was pretty much set in stone DECADES ago, is delusionally optimistic at best.
TOS routinely came against unknown ships and didn't ROUTINELY get the pasting that the Ent-D, and THEY were working on a 1960's budget. And the DIALOG that was presented ALSO indicated the strength of the TOS ship as well, so they didn't NEED to show the special effects, just the RESULTS of what was going on. So all of the excuses that you make for the poor performance of the Galaxy class are ALL speculative, and NOT CANON. And that's the problem, isn't it? The fact that this is the canon that, unfortunately you have to live with.
You Galaxy fans are NOT going to successfully "re-litigate" points and decisions regarding the portrayal of the Galaxy class vessels that was made DECADES ago. If that is your strategy, then it's no wonder why Cryptic/CBS feels empowered to just ignore YOUR interpretation of how you THINK that the Galaxy should be, rather than how it was SHOWN on screen.
I love the fact that you swash away any response to your points as "specualtive" and return to your usual rambling. Of course everything you state was shown on screen, yet everything that came in response is true to that as well.
Glad you mention the dialogue. The dialogue in TNG mentioned that the Enterprise was the most powerful ship of the fleet, it mentioned that first contact situations were repeatedly in jeopardy because people were offended by the firepower the ship had, every people other than the UFP referred to it as a battleship, the crew itself suffering from an induced amnesia immedeatly recognize the massive armamanet and jump to false conclusions as well.
TNG had a different message than DS9 and later incarnations. The Enterprise, despite her formidable firepower (note firepower, more nimble ships could easily outmanneuver it for sure), did not invoke force upon those she encountered despite the fact that she could and 2/3 encounters she had were to emphasie that force was not the answer to our problems. The original Borg are etirely based on that concept - technology and firepower will not save us. This was later changed since it IS a very unpopular theme, people rather want so see shooting, 'splosions and people who "do what has to be done" but you need to keep that in mind.
That is not "blaming the performance on the writing". This is simply understanding what a piece of fiction wants to tell versus established mechanics within a fictional universe. Although I get the feeling that you are more personally invested in the matter than anyone of the "fanboys" you love to accuse time and again in capital letters of, I don't even know what.
Think about your health and take it easy, it is just fantasy and good fun for most of us - no need to risk a heart attack about it, you are taking this debate way to seriously
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But the problem is, poor writing or not, this is CANON, and it has been adhered to as such for more than the last TWO DECADES.
Had that been TOS, I do agree that the era equivalent BOP would have been destroy in seconds by the original Enterprise (See "Errand of Mercy").
However, TNG decided to go in another direction in showing the battle capabilities (or lack) of ITS "hero" ship, and THAT direction did it NO favors. However, for the Galaxy lovers to think that Cryptic is going to erase and rewrite a portrayal that was pretty much set in stone DECADES ago, is delusionally optimistic at best.
If a Neg'Var or a Scimitar were in orbit of a planet and took a torpedo into its unshielded impule engine....................
They would have crashed into the planet just like the enterprise D did........A ship in orbit wthout impulse power is going down
Cryptic uses no canon at all in there ship designs
80.000 ton bop has more firepower than a 400.000 ton battleship...thats STO......................
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I use both the galaxy and galaxy x myself and i'd love to see both of them have their Lt cmder slots changed to universal ones. idk about everyone else but that would be a god send to me. especially for the galaxy x which I honestly feel is waaaay to eng heavy for an all out warship refit version of the galaxy.
Also the galaxy could use another ability. a counterpart to the galaxy x's phaser lance. like idk a graviton beam or a superior tractor beam. heck maybe even a unique 5th cruiser command. which another cruiser command would actually make a lot of sense to me personally.
I use both the galaxy and galaxy x myself and i'd love to see both of them have their Lt cmder slots changed to universal ones. idk about everyone else but that would be a god send to me. especially for the galaxy x which I honestly feel is waaaay to eng heavy for an all out warship refit version of the galaxy.
Also the galaxy could use another ability. like a counterpart to the galaxy x's phaser lance. like idk a graviton beam or a superior tractor beam. heck maybe even a unique 5th cruiser command. which another cruiser command would actually make a lot of sense to me personally.
I think it would be a nice fit to give sensor analysis to the Galaxy R. Since the devs simply do not want to change the boff layout of that ship ever, this would be at least a rather painless addition
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It is also CANON that at the time of TNG the Galaxy class was had the most powerful power output, fastest warp speed and most powerful weapons in the fleet.
Did it retain that status after the Sovereign and possibly the Promethious? Probably not.
And none of the delusional Galaxy fans are asking for the Galaxy to be an Uber DPS cruiser. But it also should not be the worst at everything either.
Even if it were better at healing at least it would have a role.
It's CANON that's what was SAID, but again, what was actually SHOWN was TOTALLY different.
I love the fact that you swash away any response to your points as "specualtive" and return to your usual rambling. Of course everything you state was shown on screen, yet everything that came in response is true to that as well.
Glad you mention the dialogue. The dialogue in TNG mentioned that the Enterprise was the most powerful ship of the fleet, it mentioned that first contact situations were repeatedly in jeopardy because people were offended by the firepower the ship had, every people other than the UFP referred to it as a battleship, the crew itself suffering from an induced amnesia immedeatly recognize the massive armamanet and jump to false conclusions as well.
TNG had a different message than DS9 and later incarnations. The Enterprise, despite her formidable firepower (note firepower, more nimble ships could easily outmanneuver it for sure), did not invoke force upon those she encountered despite the fact that she could and 2/3 encounters she had were to emphasie that force was not the answer to our problems. The original Borg are etirely based on that concept - technology and firepower will not save us. This was later changed since it IS a very unpopular theme, people rather want so see shooting, 'splosions and people who "do what has to be done" but you need to keep that in mind.
That is not "blaming the performance on the writing". This is simply understanding what a piece of fiction wants to tell versus established mechanics within a fictional universe. Although I get the feeling that you are more personally invested in the matter than anyone of the "fanboys" you love to accuse time and again in capital letters of, I don't even know what.
Think about your health and take it easy, it is just fantasy and good fun for most of us - no need to risk a heart attack about it, you are taking this debate way to seriously
Things ARE speculation if it's NOT SHOWN ON SCREEN. That's the definition of CANON. ANYTHING that anyone adds that is NOT explicitly SHOWN or STATED on screen is NOT CANON.
Is that REALLY such a hard concept to understand, or do you not WANT to understand because it doesn't fit your narrative as to how the Galaxy should be displayed and interpreted?
Things ARE speculation if it's NOT SHOWN ON SCREEN. That's the definition of CANON. ANYTHING that anyone adds that is NOT explicitly SHOWN or STATED on screen is NOT CANON.
Is that REALLY such a hard concept to understand, or do you not WANT to understand because it doesn't fit your narrative as to how the Galaxy should be displayed and interpreted?
You realise that "shown on screen" includes sound effects and spoken dialogue, right? Of course you do, you even were sure that TOS dialogue is canon. If you think that TNG dialogue is something else, however, you may enlighten us. But please, only use capital letters in the beginning of a sentence or names, would you?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
If a Neg'Var or a Scimitar were in orbit of a planet and took a torpedo into its unshielded impule engine....................
They would have crashed into the planet just like the enterprise D did........A ship in orbit wthout impulse power is going down
Cryptic uses no canon at all in there ship designs
80.000 ton bop has more firepower than a 400.000 ton battleship...thats STO......................
Hmmm. More of the "Hey, we're just as bad as everyone else" argument. Oh well, good luck with that one. And as I have mentioned before, its OFFENSIVE capabilities did absolutely nothing in those numerous episodes that I cited.
Again, you guys are "re-litigating" a 27 year old lost cause regarding the Galaxy performance. This SO resembles the old AOL Star Trek Chat board from the mid to late 1990's where the EXACT same arguments were trotted out in defense of the Galaxy. Even Ron Moore used to hang out there and respond. And you know what the results were from the Paramount/Viacom "powers that be" regarding changing the image of the Galaxy? Nothing.
Perhaps if JJ Abrams does a remake of TNG, you'll get what you want, but other than that, your current odds are about as good as finding a unicorn standing by a Leprechaun next to a pot of gold.
And as I've asked you guys before, other than doing the same complaining and raging against Cryptic, that have provided you with LITTLE results in 4 YEARS, what is your "plan B" in your to attempt to resolve your "dilemma"?
I previously provided you guys with the contact info for CBS to at least see if there could even POSSIBLY be any relief or assistance from them, but did ANY of you guys follow up on that? Nope. You immediately shot that down and opted for the EXACT same approach that has yielded very little results.
You guys CONSTANTLY complain about what Cryptic did or didn't do, but OTHER than COMPLAINING, what exactly are YOU guys prepared to do? Now, if you guys are just here to solely vent with no expectation of ANY change occurring, That fine. But if you think that using the same failed approaches will eventually work, I would direct you to Einstein's comments about doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
Comments
ya! but no one said that this ship is a scimitar clone ( nova )
but giving a second lt commander to any galaxy would make them completely too much overthetop overpowered in hell!!
and render any scimitar a joke in comparison you known.
that also why you will never see a mirror galaxy with a lt commander tact or sci....it can be!
it is written in the holy balanced bible of the game, everything depend on it.
if that fall, everything collapse, any balance, sense of reality, credibility... everything!
the only galaxy allowed to have 2 ltcommander boff and more are npc ship.
of course, how could they pose any threat if they have the bo layout of the player ship, especially with their turn and inertia.
now let think about it for a second, let replace the mirror galaxy x of the mirror event with the one the players got, would be funny isn't it? even if you keep the hull and shield mod of the npc version!
hehe, a galaxy with 2 lt commander, now really? playable by human being, hohoho!
creazy thaught!! you! hohohoh!
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
I have to say that I never really was a big fan of the Galaxy design. Based on the TV show, the STO Galaxys should have 5 CMD Universal slots because she survived everything where other ships got destroyed. :rolleyes:
well, people that hate the galaxy will argue with you that it got destroyed by a single bop then:D
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Ha Ha but that was only for 1 week every month
Which is a bull***t reason to dislike the class.
The only reason the Duras sisters pull off that stunt, was the bug planted in LaForge's VISOR. They essentially used what amounted to a cheat code to get past the shields. Then got lucky with some solid hits on the stardrive section.
I also get irked when people use this incident to try to prove Riker as some sort of incompetent. Which, or course, isn't the case.
The Duras sisters, based on what was written and shown, just got VERY lucky in that movie.
Oh, this is WAY too easy. If you define "more powerful" as win to loss ratios show on screen against opponents of the same size or greater, we have the following ships:
Sovereign, Defiant, Prometheus, Voyager. Heck, I would even venture to add the ORIGINAL Enterprise from TOS, given how much better it stood up to it opponents than the Ent-D did.
You guys REALY need to review the TNG episodes. The Ent-D was far too often getting its TRIBBLE kicked. One thing that I notice abut you guys here is that ANY episode that shows it getting a "whuppin'", you want to stick your fingers in your ears and say "La-La-La" and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does.
You know, I was watching "Darmok" the other day, and I just shook my head when the Tamarians were able to TOTALLY demolish the Ent-D forward shields within three seconds with ONLY a FEW shots! When the Ent-D fired back with three Phaser shots, guess what the result was on the Tamarian vessel? Nothing. The Ent-D was TOTALLY at the mercy of the Tamarians, and as usual, it's offensive capabilities were totally ineffective.
So let's recap: Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail
Ent-D vs. average Romulan Warbird ("Tin Man"): Fail
Ent-D vs. various probes ("Arsenal of Freedom", "The Nth Degree") Fail
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail
Even in those cases where the Galaxy shields were disabled or not effective ( "The Jem'Hadar", "Generations"), their OFFENSIVE capabilities was usually ineffective. They weren't able to penetrate the 20 year old BOP's shields, nor were they able to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship, even after transferring shield power to weapons AND with the assistance of two runabouts. As I've said before, it just couldn't get the job done.
I know that you guys and gals want to pretend that these episodes and situations don't exist, but they do, and they are Star Trek Canon, whether you like those results or not.
I do think that part of the problem is the nature of TNG in general. Unfortunately for you Galaxy lovers, TNG was the only series in the franchise that far to often aimed DOWNWARD with it's portrayal of its "hero ship" (Galaxy) battle capacities, as opposed to aiming UPWARD as the other series in the franchise did for their "hero ships". In TNG, it's been SAID that the Galaxy was the most powerful ship in the Fleet at that time ("The Best of Both Worlds"), but what is SHOWN, is that this so called "flagship" can routinely get its butt kicked by AVERAGE ships from other races ("Darmok", "Tin Man", "Rascals", "The Jem'Hadar)).
In TOS, the original Enterprise was SHOWN as be able to withstand the equivalent of 450 photon torpedos ("The Changeling"), Asteroid disintergrating weapons ("Balance of Terror"), planet disintergraters ("The Doomsday Machine"), simultaneous weapons attacks from three warships ("The Deadly Years"), and so on.
So, not only did they basically SAY that the Constitution class was a bad TRIBBLE for its time, they actually SHOWED that it was, even on a 1960's budget. However, the Ent-D has been potrayed as being unable to withstand the simultaneous firepower of two smaller B'Rel class BOP's, let along three Romulan Warbirds. Hence, it doesn't display that same level of "bad-assery" as some of the other ships in the franchise.
The other shows in the franchise (DS9, Voyager, Enterprise) also aimed upward, with even Voyager showing a better damage success rate against the Borg than the Ent-D, which is why you see the Intrepid class lovers complain about how the ship has been portrayed in STO. Again, TNG established this spotty portrayal of the Galaxy class, and has continued this portrayal with most of the video games that it shows up in.
Now, I don't know if this TNG direction to FAR TOO OFTEN portray the "Flagship" as the "underdog" as opposed to the "champion" came from Gene Roddenberry, "the writers'", or both. However, as I said before, the problem for you Galaxy lovers is that over the DECADES, this has become Star Trek Canon, and whether you like those results or not, and that's just the way that it is. So whining about "it's the writers' fault" will do you ABSOUTELY no good. This decision to go in this direction was made DECADES ago, and they are NOT going to change. If nothing else, the last four years of this game should have shown you THAT.
So getting back to your original point, yes, their are SEVERAL ships in Star Trek that are SHOWN to be more powerful, which I have already outlined.
So let's recap: Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail
as this was 1st contact with this race its hard to tell how any other ship would stand up against them
Ent-D vs. average Romulan Warbird ("Tin Man"): Fail
[COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Romulans decloaked and hit the Ent-D with a sneak attack weakening the shields to the point where they were not in a position to engage. [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs. various probes ("Arsenal of Freedom", "The Nth Degree") Fail [COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Those probes were created to be better and stronger each time they were destroyed. Even the away team failed on that one [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail
[COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Yup pathetic episode and a fail on the part of the crew. [/COLOR]
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail
Shields were comprimised direct hits to the hull.
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail
Again 1st contact with a species that was unknown to the federation and could shoot through Fed shields. The Defiant actually did worse during her 1st engagement with a attack ship
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail
Considering a fleet of 40 ships made up of different classes were all turned to space dust the Galaxy did pretty well to not be blown up
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail
And this was the Borg and their superior technology not the fairies in space Voyager Borg.
So with the examples you gave only 1 of these actually stands up and that is the Episode Rascals, However it was essential to the plot that the Ent-D was captured for young Picard and co to win her back.
Also the TOS and TNG were 2 different ends of the spectrum. The TOS was from the swinging 60's and we know why it was called the Swinging 60's as every show had people taking a swing at each other. Too much testosterone back then
TNG tried to be different in showing words rather than Kirks fist and torn shirt could win a argument or conflict.
The Defiant did pop a few Attack ships and Breen Frigates and BOP's but turned tail and ran when faced with something heavier. Example way of the warrior, Vor'cha decloaks Defiant beams up Cardies and runs back to station.
You say the Galaxies weapons were ineffective. In most of the 1st contact situations i'll give you that, The ship had to be put in danger for Superboy Wesley to save the day with his techno genius.
This is really where the issue of the weak Galaxy comes from and that is the message behind the TNG show. It wasn't cowboys in space like the TOS. DS9 was a war show so the Defiant had to be shown to blown stuff up. Voyager was lost on the other side of the quadrant so had to be shown as capable. The Galaxy is a victim of Gene going through his hippie, put flowers in the gun barrel phase which until he was push aside portrayed the show as everyone can get along if we talk it out.
Theres also a reason why the Promethues, Ent-E, Voyager and Defiant appeared to have better combat abilities, The introduction of CGI and better special effects. Heck The Original TOS series when the Enterprise shot at something it was usually a forward view of the ship firing phasers, no contact with another vessel. I think the doomsday machine was one of the few times phasers were shown to hit target
poor writing to make a buck
Read a tech manual and you will see how poor the writing is
next to a galaxy a bop couldnt scratch its paint and would be destroyed in the first volley..its a scout not warship
not only that the bop is a kirk era ship/TOS
read a manual nd see how poor the writing really is
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Defiant was boarded and disabled within mins. The Galaxy was in retreat under her own power until she was rammed. Plus took a beating without shields and ablative armour for 10 mins or so.
"stick your fingers in my ears"
LA LA LA LA LA LA!!
sorry, coudn't help it!
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
At the end its all plot armor and bad writing, but unfortunately its also canon..
Logically however Galaxy should have shown to be more powerful that it had been.
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
That's a misconception as well. The design of the B'Rel is old, yet Klingons seem to not care about how old a design is since it can be refitted and reconstructed with newer tech. Starfleet however doesn't seem to use "replicas" but refit the hulls until they can't take the technology anymore and develop a new design instead. Klingons would only develop new designs if they need a ship with a different mission profile.
That's why we have around 5 canon Klingon ships and two dozen Starfleet designs - of course because the show and everything is human-centric and to appeal to the audience we need plenty of new shinies to entertain the crowd
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Again with the "La-La-La" factor? Lol! Predictable.
I see that you absolutely failed to refute ANY of the points that I made to your original posting, because you can't, and you know it. So now, you are attempting to use " the exception swallows the rule" fallacy instead. In that SAME "10 mins" that you are referring to, the Odyssey was UTTERLY unable to destroy a SINGLE Jem'Hadar ship either. Again, I know that you want to pretend that this didn't happen, but it did, and all of your attempts misdirect those FACTS that I presented are useless.
I NEVER said that the OTHER "hero" ships from the other series NEVER had ANY issues. I CLEARLY said that their "win to loss ratio" of ships equal to their size or larger was SHOWN to be MUCH Better than the Galaxy class, which is another point that you can't refute. Just you saying "Uh-uh" is NOT a well argued method.
Also, going by your example, all you've just proved is that SOMETIMES, the Galaxy can take a pounding, but OFFENSIVELY, it can't do much else. But, isn't that EXACTLY the way that it's CURRENTLY potrayed in STO?
I know that you Galaxy lovers LOVE to constantly cite "Q-Who" regarding its weapons performance, but the problem for you is that, THAT was it's HIGH POINT. With ONE exception ("The Wounded"), every other TNG episode AFTER that showed it performance to be lackluster. For all the time that you can talk about what happened to the shields in "Generations", you ALWAYS "neglect" to talk about how its WEAPONS were TOTALLY ineffective against the BOP shields. So again, let's recap about its OFFENSIVE abilities.
Ent-D vs Borg ("Q-Who") -First a "pass" then a disastrous fail-phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs. average Tamaran vessel ("Darmok): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs Cardassian ("The Wounded") - Pass (Although the Nebula Class Phoenix did just as well)
Ent-D vs Two B'Rel BOP's ("Rascals"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs. 20 year old BOP ("Generations"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Galaxy vs. Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Haddar"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs Borg ("The Best of Both Worlds"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
Ent-D vs Lore's Borg ("Descent part 2"): Fail -phasers couldn't penetrate shields
So OFFENSIVELY, the results are pretty much the same, with the exception of it performing well in "The Wounded". But even THEN, the Nebula Class Phoenix did JUST as well as the Ent-D, so nothing to distinguish it from being the "flagship".
So whether OFFENSIVELY OR DEFENSIVELY, its win to loss ratio is still horrible, and certainly NOT becoming of being called the "flagship" OR "the most powerful vessel in Starfleet".
TOS routinely came against unknown ships and didn't ROUTINELY get the pasting that the Ent-D, and THEY were working on a 1960's budget. And the DIALOG that was presented ALSO indicated the strength of the TOS ship as well, so they didn't NEED to show the special effects, just the RESULTS of what was going on. So all of the excuses that you make for the poor performance of the Galaxy class are ALL speculative, and NOT CANON. And that's the problem, isn't it? The fact that this is the canon that, unfortunately you have to live with.
You Galaxy fans are NOT going to successfully "re-litigate" points and decisions regarding the portrayal of the Galaxy class vessels that was made DECADES ago. If that is your strategy, then it's no wonder why Cryptic/CBS feels empowered to just ignore YOUR interpretation of how you THINK that the Galaxy should be, rather than how it was SHOWN on screen.
And it was able to destroy a Jem'hadar ship in SECONDS. Something that the Galaxy class Odyssey couldn't do in "10 minutes" with shield power transferred to weapons AND with the assistance of two runabouts.
I know that you Galaxy lovers ALWAYS like to point out the perceived failures of other ships, but the problem for you is that, when a ship is being called the "Flagship" or "The most powerful ship in the fleet", it has a HIGHER STANDARD to live up to. By pointing at other ships and saying "Hey, we're just as bad as them" is NOT the way to live up to that standard. From what was SHOWN on screen, the Galaxy class did NOT live up to that HIGHER STANDARD regarding its battle capabilities.
If a food critic goes to a five star restaurant and the food is TRIBBLE, and the chef comes out and says that "Hey, we're just as bad as everyone else", do you think that the food critic is going to be impressed by that pathetic excuse? Nope. They're supposed to be BETTER than EVERYONE ELSE.
So if the Galaxy is "just as bad as other ships" then WHY is it the "flagship"? What is the point of having a "flagship" that is equally "bad" as the other ships, when you can just go ahead and manufacture those OTHER ships, in less time than the EQUALLY BAD Galaxy ship?
In TOS, although NEVER explicitly stated, it would be entirely possible to see the original Enterprise as a "flagship" based on its battle capabilities. Again, the Galaxy class was NOT SHOWN with the same reverence for its battle capabilities as the ships in the OTHER series (TOS, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise).
But the problem is, poor writing or not, this is CANON, and it has been adhered to as such for more than the last TWO DECADES.
Had that been TOS, I do agree that the era equivalent BOP would have been destroy in seconds by the original Enterprise (See "Errand of Mercy").
However, TNG decided to go in another direction in showing the battle capabilities (or lack) of ITS "hero" ship, and THAT direction did it NO favors. However, for the Galaxy lovers to think that Cryptic is going to erase and rewrite a portrayal that was pretty much set in stone DECADES ago, is delusionally optimistic at best.
I love the fact that you swash away any response to your points as "specualtive" and return to your usual rambling. Of course everything you state was shown on screen, yet everything that came in response is true to that as well.
Glad you mention the dialogue. The dialogue in TNG mentioned that the Enterprise was the most powerful ship of the fleet, it mentioned that first contact situations were repeatedly in jeopardy because people were offended by the firepower the ship had, every people other than the UFP referred to it as a battleship, the crew itself suffering from an induced amnesia immedeatly recognize the massive armamanet and jump to false conclusions as well.
TNG had a different message than DS9 and later incarnations. The Enterprise, despite her formidable firepower (note firepower, more nimble ships could easily outmanneuver it for sure), did not invoke force upon those she encountered despite the fact that she could and 2/3 encounters she had were to emphasie that force was not the answer to our problems. The original Borg are etirely based on that concept - technology and firepower will not save us. This was later changed since it IS a very unpopular theme, people rather want so see shooting, 'splosions and people who "do what has to be done" but you need to keep that in mind.
That is not "blaming the performance on the writing". This is simply understanding what a piece of fiction wants to tell versus established mechanics within a fictional universe. Although I get the feeling that you are more personally invested in the matter than anyone of the "fanboys" you love to accuse time and again in capital letters of, I don't even know what.
Think about your health and take it easy, it is just fantasy and good fun for most of us - no need to risk a heart attack about it, you are taking this debate way to seriously
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If a Neg'Var or a Scimitar were in orbit of a planet and took a torpedo into its unshielded impule engine....................
They would have crashed into the planet just like the enterprise D did........A ship in orbit wthout impulse power is going down
Cryptic uses no canon at all in there ship designs
80.000 ton bop has more firepower than a 400.000 ton battleship...thats STO......................
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Also the galaxy could use another ability. a counterpart to the galaxy x's phaser lance. like idk a graviton beam or a superior tractor beam. heck maybe even a unique 5th cruiser command. which another cruiser command would actually make a lot of sense to me personally.
I think it would be a nice fit to give sensor analysis to the Galaxy R. Since the devs simply do not want to change the boff layout of that ship ever, this would be at least a rather painless addition
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It's CANON that's what was SAID, but again, what was actually SHOWN was TOTALLY different.
Things ARE speculation if it's NOT SHOWN ON SCREEN. That's the definition of CANON. ANYTHING that anyone adds that is NOT explicitly SHOWN or STATED on screen is NOT CANON.
Is that REALLY such a hard concept to understand, or do you not WANT to understand because it doesn't fit your narrative as to how the Galaxy should be displayed and interpreted?
You realise that "shown on screen" includes sound effects and spoken dialogue, right? Of course you do, you even were sure that TOS dialogue is canon. If you think that TNG dialogue is something else, however, you may enlighten us. But please, only use capital letters in the beginning of a sentence or names, would you?
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Hmmm. More of the "Hey, we're just as bad as everyone else" argument. Oh well, good luck with that one. And as I have mentioned before, its OFFENSIVE capabilities did absolutely nothing in those numerous episodes that I cited.
Again, you guys are "re-litigating" a 27 year old lost cause regarding the Galaxy performance. This SO resembles the old AOL Star Trek Chat board from the mid to late 1990's where the EXACT same arguments were trotted out in defense of the Galaxy. Even Ron Moore used to hang out there and respond. And you know what the results were from the Paramount/Viacom "powers that be" regarding changing the image of the Galaxy? Nothing.
Perhaps if JJ Abrams does a remake of TNG, you'll get what you want, but other than that, your current odds are about as good as finding a unicorn standing by a Leprechaun next to a pot of gold.
And as I've asked you guys before, other than doing the same complaining and raging against Cryptic, that have provided you with LITTLE results in 4 YEARS, what is your "plan B" in your to attempt to resolve your "dilemma"?
I previously provided you guys with the contact info for CBS to at least see if there could even POSSIBLY be any relief or assistance from them, but did ANY of you guys follow up on that? Nope. You immediately shot that down and opted for the EXACT same approach that has yielded very little results.
You guys CONSTANTLY complain about what Cryptic did or didn't do, but OTHER than COMPLAINING, what exactly are YOU guys prepared to do? Now, if you guys are just here to solely vent with no expectation of ANY change occurring, That fine. But if you think that using the same failed approaches will eventually work, I would direct you to Einstein's comments about doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.