Not always. Some battlescenes in DS9 showed Galaxy class ships fireing multiple beams at a target (a galor class if i remember corectly).
Also we shouldn't forget that the big D almost never shot to kill. they mostly just wanted to diasble an enemy ship. The only times we really can see the D fighting for her life was "best of both worlds I+II" and "The Survivors". And then she was really kicking A$$ IMO.
Estimating the GCS real performance isn't that easy, since they put someone in command who rather talked than shoots. (And let's not forget the technical limitations of the time TNG was shot.)
I still think that if that stupid producer didn't had decided to get rid of the Enterprise -D and subsitute it with that cheap excelsior ripoff, things would be much more in favour of the Galaxy Class.
the D fired multiple beams at once on a few occasions mainly against the borg. it used the pylon arrays with the main saucer arrays
I have now used both the Captain and Tier-5 Retrofit Galaxies, and the only problem I have with either of them is... well, nothing.
The Retrofit Tier-5 is a brick **** house, and I fly it with a tac. captain.
Should it turn like an escort? No. Should it do weird things like a science ship? No. It's built to survive and make sure its team mates do too.
I have now used both the Captain and Tier-5 Retrofit Galaxies, and the only problem I have with either of them is... well, nothing.
The Retrofit Tier-5 is a brick **** house, and I fly it with a tac. captain.
Should it turn like an escort? No. Should it do weird things like a science ship? No. It's built to survive and make sure its team mates do too.
I'm glad you found a ship with what you are able to survive, but most other people can archieve that with almost any ship.
The point is that no one needs a flying brick with no teeth.
Cryptics initial system of Stone, Paper Scissor doesn't work anymore (and was wrong to beginn with).
A pure tank is completely dispensable as long as it doesn't have enough means to strike back.
(and crpyitcs idea of making especially the GCS a pure defensive a ship is just bizarre.)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Take the small hull of a defient Add weapons until its full
Take a larger hull 5 times its size add weapon until its full
The hull 5x bigger holds 5x more weapons
Thats why STO has so many problems selling there ships they make no sense at all because they defy logical sense and why so many people are unhappy
It even fails with crew...A defiant has 5 bridge officers while a GC has 5....Wut !
large crew gives no bonus but actually hurts in ship repairs !!!!!!!! the small crew regenerates to healed faster so repairs faster Wut!!!
Away teams from the smallest ship are the same size ! Wut!!!!
Cargo/Loot taken from battle is the same from the smallest ship to the largest !!! Wut
small tiny ships are Faster at WARP Wut !!!!!!! with the same Range !!!
whatever its actually quite comical
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Take the small hull of a defient Add weapons until its full
Take a larger hull 5 times its size add weapon until its full
The hull 5x bigger holds 5x more weapons
Thats why STO has so many problems selling there ships they make no sense at all because they defy logical sense and why so many people are unhappy
It even fails with crew...A defiant has 5 bridge officers while a GC has 5....Wut !
large crew gives no bonus but actually hurts in ship repairs !!!!!!!! the small crew regenerates to healed faster so repairs faster Wut!!!
Away teams from the smallest ship are the same size ! Wut!!!!
Cargo/Loot taken from battle is the same from the smallest ship to the largest !!! Wut
small tiny ships are Faster at WARP Wut !!!!!!! with the same Range !!!
whatever its actually quite comical
The game is dersigned to be "balanced" although there shouldn't be balance. A Star Cruiser and a Frigate just can't and shouldn't do the same things, yet this game is based on the assumption that you should be able to complete everything, solo, in any ship you choose. That's why a Bird of Prey Raider or a Defiant Frigate has the exact same capabilities as a Galaxy Class Explorer or a Negh'Var Battlecruiser. It's even in advantage because the trinity functions are rather comically extrapolated the further you look towards "endgame" status. A "escort" is supposed to be the damage dealer. That means a T5 escort has to deal the most damage. A "cruiser" is supposed to tank. That's why a T5 cruiser has to tank the best. The rather one-dimensional gameplay takes care of the rest.
If there was a Star Wars game in which you could destroy a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser with an imperial Tie Fighter most people, especially fans, would be very upset I suppose.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The game is dersigned to be "balanced" although there shouldn't be balance. A Star Cruiser and a Frigate just can't and shouldn't do the same things, yet this game is based on the assumption that you should be able to complete everything, solo, in any ship you choose. That's why a Bird of Prey Raider or a Defiant Frigate has the exact same capabilities as a Galaxy Class Explorer or a Negh'Var Battlecruiser. It's even in advantage because the trinity functions are rather comically extrapolated the further you look towards "endgame" status. A "escort" is supposed to be the damage dealer. That means a T5 escort has to deal the most damage. A "cruiser" is supposed to tank. That's why a T5 cruiser has to tank the best. The rather one-dimensional gameplay takes care of the rest.
If there was a Star Wars game in which you could destroy a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser with an imperial Tie Fighter most people, especially fans, would be very upset I suppose.
Ill admit I was hoping another Star Trek game would come along and have better ties to how ships would and should preform closer to what we saw and know from the series and the movies. I like how they kinda moved from the classic trinity but I think they should have really either stuck with it or moved completely away from it. They should have also thought out endgame more and not made it dps centric as it is (beating timers is something that 5 dps do alot better then any other combo in this game as you don't need a tank for most of it).
I don't really hate this game due to them doing what they did with cruisers and escorts. What I hate is how they stuck certain ships in certain positions that don't really fit with what those ships were. The Galaxy wasn't just a floating punching bag they made it out to be any more then I'd say the Intrepid is a dedicated science ship (more of a smaller sleeker cruiser designed for the purpose of finding and weeding out the Maquis cant remember why). Two ships which I love the design of but both have Bo and Console setups I really hate and the 3 front 3 rear weapons on the Intrepid since its science sucks too. Also hate they didn't make all ships have a dedicated slot for torpedoes. Some of what cryptic did I really like but I think some of it they just stuck random ships in to fill the roster for that ship.
I enjoy STO but until they do (if they ever do) make real ship yards to design your own starships with the skins of the vessels you want and the setups you'd enjoy doubt I'll spend anymore cash on ships or subs. The fact they refuse to even acknowledge this thread and some others helps to keep me from spending any more then I already have on this game.
The game is dersigned to be "balanced" although there shouldn't be balance. A Star Cruiser and a Frigate just can't and shouldn't do the same things, yet this game is based on the assumption that you should be able to complete everything, solo, in any ship you choose. That's why a Bird of Prey Raider or a Defiant Frigate has the exact same capabilities as a Galaxy Class Explorer or a Negh'Var Battlecruiser. It's even in advantage because the trinity functions are rather comically extrapolated the further you look towards "endgame" status. A "escort" is supposed to be the damage dealer. That means a T5 escort has to deal the most damage. A "cruiser" is supposed to tank. That's why a T5 cruiser has to tank the best. The rather one-dimensional gameplay takes care of the rest.
If there was a Star Wars game in which you could destroy a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser with an imperial Tie Fighter most people, especially fans, would be very upset I suppose.
Well yeah. Tie fighters where essentially cannon fodder which is why they used them in large quantities, now if you turned that around and said a squadron of x-wings vs a star destroyer, a star wars fan wouldn't bat an eye.
But then again Star Wars has pretty clear cut rules. Ship designs provided are not based loosely on an idea they are solid and approved. Capital ships vs Capital ships where pretty simple, fighters where a bit one sided with the "good" guys having shields and "bad" guys having quantity.
Clearly i am a fan of Star Wars.
That being said, Star Trek always used plot loops, technobabble, and plot armor to do what ever. The best accuracy you see is in DS9 (excluding the defiant herself) Ships just wrecking each other. The Hero ships gave us an undeniably skewed view on ships, but in truth its mostly the powers, overlaping cd's and such that hobble certain ships, you notice most people dont complain about the Defiant or Intrepid classes.
This is because less of those powers are knocking on each others doors.
For Example an Intrepid.
I run GW3, TBR2, TSS 2 and HE 1 in the Commander
PH 1 in the ensign
Science Team 1, Tachyon Beam 2, and Viral Matrix 1 in the Lt. Commander
in the others i can run EPtW 1 and Aux2Sif 1 for Eng, then run HY 1 and BO 2 for Tac. Not a single overlapped power.
Engineering? You have 4 EPtX powers that trip all over each other, 3 Aux2X that trip all over each other, and then you have a few that have CD's that are FAR too long for a Boff ability. I.E. DEM, RSP (both would be OP if it wasnt for the extremely short duration and long CD)
Now alot of Tactical abilities do trip all over each other, but are damage centered. Hence there not being a huge problem with them (not to mention on a Tac captain you get Tac initiative which reduces tactical Boff CD's)
What if the regular EPtX powers had only a 30 Second CD, with a total 10 Second CD for Global/Duplicate? Might help some. Look at the Auxto powers, 10 second system global/duplicate and people use the heck out of those.
CRF, 30s CD, 15s Duplicate. most other powers work inside the constraints given to them and so do the ships that primarily use them.
But Enginnering abilities not so much. Technicians where created to help alleviate the massive CD's of Eng abilities, but instead people use them to roflstomp people by abusing them, this is why Eng powers will never get fixed and why the Galaxy will always sit in drydock.
Except for those that dont care and use it anyway. Its not the consoles, its not the turn rate, its not the weapons, its not the boff seating, It's the powers themselves.
Maybe on one of my toons i will bellow as loud as i can and roar into battle with a Zombie Galazy........(meant that "typo" too)
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
....
If there was a Star Wars game in which you could destroy a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser with an imperial Tie Fighter most people, especially fans, would be very upset I suppose.
I think these aer terms the devs would understand, if they would read this thread.
Well yeah. Tie fighters where essentially cannon fodder which is why they used them in large quantities, now if you turned that around and said a squadron of x-wings vs a star destroyer, a star wars fan wouldn't bat an eye.
But then again Star Wars has pretty clear cut rules. Ship designs provided are not based loosely on an idea they are solid and approved. Capital ships vs Capital ships where pretty simple, fighters where a bit one sided with the "good" guys having shields and "bad" guys having quantity.
Clearly i am a fan of Star Wars.
That being said, Star Trek always used plot loops, technobabble, and plot armor to do what ever. The best accuracy you see is in DS9 (excluding the defiant herself) Ships just wrecking each other. The Hero ships gave us an undeniably skewed view on ships, but in truth its mostly the powers, overlaping cd's and such that hobble certain ships, you notice most people dont complain about the Defiant or Intrepid classes.
In DS9 batlles most ships tend to have no shields...
A better analogy would be to say SW works more like WWIIFighter/Battleship/Carriers and ST more like napolionic sea warfare (or Submarine - Destroyer fights, depending on what era).
The point isa game developer can't just mix them! Or the result will be a complete mess (as in STO).Nothing works as it is suposed to be, just because the devs rather want to create a SW like game or simply not understanding the fundamental differences between ST and SW.
But Enginnering abilities not so much. Technicians where created to help alleviate the massive CD's of Eng abilities, but instead people use them to roflstomp people by abusing them, this is why Eng powers will never get fixed and why the Galaxy will always sit in drydock.
Except for those that dont care and use it anyway. Its not the consoles, its not the turn rate, its not the weapons, its not the boff seating, It's the powers themselves.
Maybe on one of my toons i will bellow as loud as i can and roar into battle with a Zombie Galazy........(meant that "typo" too)
Maybe introducing A2B technicans was shortsighted by the devs, i am glad that there is a way to improve the offensiveness of Cruisers, especially Starfleet cruisers. But the problem is they have to sacrifice almost all healing capabilities and resistances for that IMO. Something a escort doesn't have to.
I fully agree with you and i also fly my Galaxy Class no matter how bad she is.
The funny thing is that the devs use this as argument that there are enough people using that ship so it can't be that bad...:rolleyes:
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
That video is completely unrealistic. There is no way a 200+ year old starship would do that to a Galaxy + Defiant. The USS Defiant alone would annihilate the Enterprise-A, even with the M5 computer program from the TOS episode The Ultimate Computer. A Galaxy class Starship could probably cripple or kill the Constitution in several volleys.
That video is completely unrealistic. There is no way a 200+ year old starship would do that to a Galaxy + Defiant. The USS Defiant alone would annihilate the Enterprise-A, even with the M5 computer program from the TOS episode The Ultimate Computer. A Galaxy class Starship could probably cripple or kill the Constitution in several volleys.
It was firing quantum torpedos and probably has metaphasic shielding.It wouldn't in that sense.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
It was firing quantum torpedos and probably has metaphasic shielding.It wouldn't in that sense.
You are joking, right?
In case you're not, i think the typical MMO brainwash of "everything has to be balanced" has gotten out of hand, lol.
I hope someone else has the time to explain what's wrong about that video.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
In case you're not, i think the typical MMO brainwash of "everything has to be balanced" has gotten out of hand, lol.
I hope someone else has the time to explain what's wrong about that video.
No I ma not but but that is just fan made video but what it really happened and it did fire something from it deflector dish maybe a tachyon burst.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
Now watch as entire fleet of Dominion Capitol Ships are obliterated by the Enterprise A under the control of the M5 computer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncie2SayGP4
hmm, new lockbox idea? M5 Lockbox - Lockbox Ship - Tier V Fleet Constitution Retrofit
Now watch as entire fleet of Dominion Capitol Ships are obliterated by the Enterprise A under the control of the M5 computer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncie2SayGP4
hmm, new lockbox idea? M5 Lockbox - Lockbox Ship - Tier V Fleet Constitution Retrofit
Active ability: Kill target (1.25 seconds to activate. 30km range. 5 second cooldown)
Instantly kills the currently selected target, ally or enemy. Firework effect and "Congratulations, Admiral" sound effect plays upon every activation.
You are a terrible person. A reallly terrible person. Almost as bad as the person who fangasmed so hard about the enterprise A they felt the need to bring back the M5 Enterprise and have it wreck everything in what is possibly the most ill concieved and properly portrayed way possible.
Side note at least the CG models he used were ok.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You are a terrible person. A reallly terrible person. Almost as bad as the person who fangasmed so hard about the enterprise A they felt the need to bring back the M5 Enterprise and have it wreck everything in what is possibly the most ill concieved and properly portrayed way possible.
Side note at least the CG models he used were ok.
Whaaattt? It would shut up the people swooning over the idea of a Tier V Connie. Sure, the console would be a little powerful, but just look at the Scimitar. The player tosses the console ability on spacebar and spams it constantly, everything in range blows up. See? No different from the Scimitar :P.
What the heck does a bad fanmade vido have to do with the T5 Galaxy -R in STO?
Those viedos are like comparing a STO space battle with canon space combat. Both share only the ship models, nothing more.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
To equate that to STO is like the Galaxy and Defiant only using Mk I white equipment no Boffs/doffs slotted while the Connie had all Mk XII Purple gear, borg set, Elite fleet resilient shields ResA, crit chance of 35% while using 5 Human commander boffs at once.
The only way that video would be plausible in theory is the Connie had weapons, shields and engines decades more advanced than the rest of the fleet.
I can say the same about T3 Escort vs a Galaxy the Escort will simply win.
That vid is a fictional fan made up story with e more up to date Ent. A unleashing this amount of damage and it is possible.The size of the ship has nothing to due with it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
You are a terrible person. A reallly terrible person. Almost as bad as the person who fangasmed so hard about the enterprise A they felt the need to bring back the M5 Enterprise and have it wreck everything in what is possibly the most ill concieved and properly portrayed way possible.
Side note at least the CG models he used were ok.
it was done in bridge commander with ship mods installed
some of those ship mods people have made are stupidly unbalanced as shown here
Well with updated tech and M5 controlled Connie could probably do it since it has advantages in quicker response time, being able to pull extra power for weapons what with no crew and no need for life support, and the possibility it could hack other starships and TRIBBLE with their systems.
Plus TOS era ships seem better designed for some reason than TNG era ships since warp core breaches were only a thing in the 24th century.
Aside from mentioning that this discussion has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, why do people repeatedly say M5 could hack the enemy? It was never shown to do that.
The M5 unit was simply a highly sophisticated system that could control a starship faster than a human being could. It can do nothing that the ship it's installed on can't do and it terminates itself if you hail it and say that it just violated it's own principles by attacking and killing crew on another ship.
If any you would have to discuss M6 and that's pure speculation. And no, computer or not, a constitution refit wouldn't have the capabilities of withstanding a Mk X (or up) phaser salvo and I personally believe that there are limits how far you can upgrade the old 23rd century designs.
/nerd
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Although i do fully agree with angrytarg, i just want to mention that cyberattacks maybe do not occur for a reason in Star Trek.
I think computer systems in Trek are by design not as prone to hacking as todays systems.
Duotronics, multitronics, Isolinear, bioneural positronic and whatever might be very different to todays machines and are without question much more sophisticated. We shouldn't do the mistake and transfer concepts from other Sci Fi universes to Star Trek.
Whatever, this discussion and that lame video Age03 posted have nothing to do with this thread.
I could have made a video showing my grandmother throwing a stone towards a STO galor Class and destroying it. Would that proof anything? lol.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
startrek never really showed remote cyberwarfare attacks at all.
outside of the destruction of the yamamoto, i cant remember anything besides the borg hooking themselves up to a terminal to attack electronically.
with the communications & cumputer tech on a pfp ship, they have all the tech they need attack electronically, even if the crew are too stupid to do so.
But that's entering "Star Trek totally based on Starfighter dogfights because ships have hangar bays. It only was never shown" territory. M5's capabilities were clearly shown, it did everything to survive. If it just could hack into the enemy computer to blow up or disable the ship it would have done so instead of shooting it. M5 is completely bound to the capabilities of the vessel it's installed on, it's not like NOMAD which could operate autonomously.
Electronic "warfare" is shown on a few occasions, most of the time it consists of a crew member manually establishing a link with the other computer and sending some form of signal to remote control features on that ship (i.e. 'send the command code to lower their shields' or something like that). If you could just point to a ship and "haxx0r" it, why have guns and shields and all? I think it's as yreodred says, those computers should be pretty safe. It's almost idiocy to even allow wireless remote access to those systems in the first place. It would make more sense that if you seek access to the computer you'd have to physically connect to it. Even the Borg had to send drones on board of the Enterprise to physically connect to the computer.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I've seen the end of that series Rifleman80 made. That silly ship mod roflstomps two crappy Galaxy X models before a third comes out of nowhere and roflstomps it back, since the two original X's did so much damage to it in the fight.
Then again, those are crappy X mods anyway.
Weyland-Yutani Joint Space Venture - Always open to new members!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
offensive electronic warfare may not have been show,, but the idae that there wouldnt be at least some defence would be laughable, at that point you are in the territory of who's computer is the most powerful.
its also hyperbole to suggest that having one means you could just not bother with the other.
I didn't mean to say there are no defenses, quite the contrary. I was putting an accent to the point that we saw M5 doing all it was capable of to survive and electronic warfare wasn't a part of it or at least someone had told us that M5 attempted anything since the crew was perfectly able to follow M5's every action. Of course iot makes sense to have "both" forms of combat available, I was extrapolating the "instant hacking" idea just a bit
they have integrates systems, the computers are involved in everything, hence the yamato (or whaterver) getting killed by the iconian virus, the sensors are linked the external coms are linked, the internal coms, they are by no means isolated. simple proof of their not being isolated, is that they arent blind & drifting.
the reason you would use physical infiltration, is to bypass extra defences to external lines like external coms & sensors.
just because you can hack it, doesnt mean it would be instant, or undetected. and there would still be the last resort of the organic crew to shut-down compromised automated systems and opperate them manually.
not to mention, that twok example you reference, has absolutely nothing to do with electronic warfare, and everything with movie khan being a ****** who couldnt think to reset the command codes.
Integrated systems ar perfectly viable, but you can still use those in a closed system. That everything INSIDE the ship is linked is a fact, the computer (even the not M5 regular computer) can take automatic control of every system if the need arises. But why would have to open that system to the outside? Sure, your sensors going "outward", yet those don't need to be able to transmit data from point A to point B, they deliver imagery, meassurements, scans that get interpreted by the ship's computer. Same with communications, you'd use a comm signal with the outside world, but why should anything else be able to "enter" through the comm systems besides the radio signal? (I know Trek doesn't use "radio" but you get my point).
I know that they don't have these kinds of precautions since the computers were hijacked numerous times in every installment of the show, I think. But it's quite foolish to allow that to happen, really. The systems are quite secure, I think that's shown that even the Borg use physical links with the computer.
And Khan was just too angry to think about something minor like that...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Electronic warfare in Star Trek was not shown in TOS as they did not grasp that it even existed back in the 60's. The best were isolating Nomad from the computer, breaking V'ger's connection to the computer, ship prefix codes that allow remote operation, Iconian virus (complete with wipe and restore subnotes. Geordi acted like this was extraordinary.), Data isolating all ship systems when recalled by Soong, DS9 had the old intrusion counter measure (And again Star Fleet showed they don't understand hostile programs by putting an unknown and undeletable program to the main computer to be 'looked at later'.), The alien computer life form Pup, and Eddington's hack of DS9 and Defiant.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
the D fired multiple beams at once on a few occasions mainly against the borg. it used the pylon arrays with the main saucer arrays
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJilKdc6RIA
The Retrofit Tier-5 is a brick **** house, and I fly it with a tac. captain.
Should it turn like an escort? No. Should it do weird things like a science ship? No. It's built to survive and make sure its team mates do too.
The point is that no one needs a flying brick with no teeth.
Cryptics initial system of Stone, Paper Scissor doesn't work anymore (and was wrong to beginn with).
A pure tank is completely dispensable as long as it doesn't have enough means to strike back.
(and crpyitcs idea of making especially the GCS a pure defensive a ship is just bizarre.)
Take the small hull of a defient Add weapons until its full
Take a larger hull 5 times its size add weapon until its full
The hull 5x bigger holds 5x more weapons
Thats why STO has so many problems selling there ships they make no sense at all because they defy logical sense and why so many people are unhappy
It even fails with crew...A defiant has 5 bridge officers while a GC has 5....Wut !
large crew gives no bonus but actually hurts in ship repairs !!!!!!!! the small crew regenerates to healed faster so repairs faster Wut!!!
Away teams from the smallest ship are the same size ! Wut!!!!
Cargo/Loot taken from battle is the same from the smallest ship to the largest !!! Wut
small tiny ships are Faster at WARP Wut !!!!!!! with the same Range !!!
whatever its actually quite comical
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The game is dersigned to be "balanced" although there shouldn't be balance. A Star Cruiser and a Frigate just can't and shouldn't do the same things, yet this game is based on the assumption that you should be able to complete everything, solo, in any ship you choose. That's why a Bird of Prey Raider or a Defiant Frigate has the exact same capabilities as a Galaxy Class Explorer or a Negh'Var Battlecruiser. It's even in advantage because the trinity functions are rather comically extrapolated the further you look towards "endgame" status. A "escort" is supposed to be the damage dealer. That means a T5 escort has to deal the most damage. A "cruiser" is supposed to tank. That's why a T5 cruiser has to tank the best. The rather one-dimensional gameplay takes care of the rest.
If there was a Star Wars game in which you could destroy a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser with an imperial Tie Fighter most people, especially fans, would be very upset I suppose.
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Ill admit I was hoping another Star Trek game would come along and have better ties to how ships would and should preform closer to what we saw and know from the series and the movies. I like how they kinda moved from the classic trinity but I think they should have really either stuck with it or moved completely away from it. They should have also thought out endgame more and not made it dps centric as it is (beating timers is something that 5 dps do alot better then any other combo in this game as you don't need a tank for most of it).
I don't really hate this game due to them doing what they did with cruisers and escorts. What I hate is how they stuck certain ships in certain positions that don't really fit with what those ships were. The Galaxy wasn't just a floating punching bag they made it out to be any more then I'd say the Intrepid is a dedicated science ship (more of a smaller sleeker cruiser designed for the purpose of finding and weeding out the Maquis cant remember why). Two ships which I love the design of but both have Bo and Console setups I really hate and the 3 front 3 rear weapons on the Intrepid since its science sucks too. Also hate they didn't make all ships have a dedicated slot for torpedoes. Some of what cryptic did I really like but I think some of it they just stuck random ships in to fill the roster for that ship.
I enjoy STO but until they do (if they ever do) make real ship yards to design your own starships with the skins of the vessels you want and the setups you'd enjoy doubt I'll spend anymore cash on ships or subs. The fact they refuse to even acknowledge this thread and some others helps to keep me from spending any more then I already have on this game.
Well yeah. Tie fighters where essentially cannon fodder which is why they used them in large quantities, now if you turned that around and said a squadron of x-wings vs a star destroyer, a star wars fan wouldn't bat an eye.
But then again Star Wars has pretty clear cut rules. Ship designs provided are not based loosely on an idea they are solid and approved. Capital ships vs Capital ships where pretty simple, fighters where a bit one sided with the "good" guys having shields and "bad" guys having quantity.
Clearly i am a fan of Star Wars.
That being said, Star Trek always used plot loops, technobabble, and plot armor to do what ever. The best accuracy you see is in DS9 (excluding the defiant herself) Ships just wrecking each other. The Hero ships gave us an undeniably skewed view on ships, but in truth its mostly the powers, overlaping cd's and such that hobble certain ships, you notice most people dont complain about the Defiant or Intrepid classes.
This is because less of those powers are knocking on each others doors.
For Example an Intrepid.
I run GW3, TBR2, TSS 2 and HE 1 in the Commander
PH 1 in the ensign
Science Team 1, Tachyon Beam 2, and Viral Matrix 1 in the Lt. Commander
in the others i can run EPtW 1 and Aux2Sif 1 for Eng, then run HY 1 and BO 2 for Tac. Not a single overlapped power.
Engineering? You have 4 EPtX powers that trip all over each other, 3 Aux2X that trip all over each other, and then you have a few that have CD's that are FAR too long for a Boff ability. I.E. DEM, RSP (both would be OP if it wasnt for the extremely short duration and long CD)
Now alot of Tactical abilities do trip all over each other, but are damage centered. Hence there not being a huge problem with them (not to mention on a Tac captain you get Tac initiative which reduces tactical Boff CD's)
What if the regular EPtX powers had only a 30 Second CD, with a total 10 Second CD for Global/Duplicate? Might help some. Look at the Auxto powers, 10 second system global/duplicate and people use the heck out of those.
CRF, 30s CD, 15s Duplicate. most other powers work inside the constraints given to them and so do the ships that primarily use them.
But Enginnering abilities not so much. Technicians where created to help alleviate the massive CD's of Eng abilities, but instead people use them to roflstomp people by abusing them, this is why Eng powers will never get fixed and why the Galaxy will always sit in drydock.
Except for those that dont care and use it anyway. Its not the consoles, its not the turn rate, its not the weapons, its not the boff seating, It's the powers themselves.
Maybe on one of my toons i will bellow as loud as i can and roar into battle with a Zombie Galazy........(meant that "typo" too)
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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In DS9 batlles most ships tend to have no shields...
A better analogy would be to say SW works more like WWIIFighter/Battleship/Carriers and ST more like napolionic sea warfare (or Submarine - Destroyer fights, depending on what era).
The point isa game developer can't just mix them! Or the result will be a complete mess (as in STO).Nothing works as it is suposed to be, just because the devs rather want to create a SW like game or simply not understanding the fundamental differences between ST and SW.
Maybe introducing A2B technicans was shortsighted by the devs, i am glad that there is a way to improve the offensiveness of Cruisers, especially Starfleet cruisers. But the problem is they have to sacrifice almost all healing capabilities and resistances for that IMO. Something a escort doesn't have to.
I fully agree with you and i also fly my Galaxy Class no matter how bad she is.
The funny thing is that the devs use this as argument that there are enough people using that ship so it can't be that bad...:rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQoRjKjFlIc
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
That video is completely unrealistic. There is no way a 200+ year old starship would do that to a Galaxy + Defiant. The USS Defiant alone would annihilate the Enterprise-A, even with the M5 computer program from the TOS episode The Ultimate Computer. A Galaxy class Starship could probably cripple or kill the Constitution in several volleys.
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It was firing quantum torpedos and probably has metaphasic shielding.It wouldn't in that sense.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
You are joking, right?
In case you're not, i think the typical MMO brainwash of "everything has to be balanced" has gotten out of hand, lol.
I hope someone else has the time to explain what's wrong about that video.
No I ma not but but that is just fan made video but what it really happened and it did fire something from it deflector dish maybe a tachyon burst.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
^STO ship logic. well almost, the defiant would have been the hero ship destroying everything
The Constitution class against a Galaxy class and Defiant Class would be like attempting to use the USS Constitution to attack the USS Enterprise and the USS Arleigh Burke.
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That makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Now watch as entire fleet of Dominion Capitol Ships are obliterated by the Enterprise A under the control of the M5 computer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncie2SayGP4
hmm, new lockbox idea? M5 Lockbox - Lockbox Ship - Tier V Fleet Constitution Retrofit
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You are a terrible person. A reallly terrible person. Almost as bad as the person who fangasmed so hard about the enterprise A they felt the need to bring back the M5 Enterprise and have it wreck everything in what is possibly the most ill concieved and properly portrayed way possible.
Side note at least the CG models he used were ok.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Whaaattt? It would shut up the people swooning over the idea of a Tier V Connie. Sure, the console would be a little powerful, but just look at the Scimitar. The player tosses the console ability on spacebar and spams it constantly, everything in range blows up. See? No different from the Scimitar :P.
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Those viedos are like comparing a STO space battle with canon space combat. Both share only the ship models, nothing more.
I can say the same about T3 Escort vs a Galaxy the Escort will simply win.
That vid is a fictional fan made up story with e more up to date Ent. A unleashing this amount of damage and it is possible.The size of the ship has nothing to due with it.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
it was done in bridge commander with ship mods installed
some of those ship mods people have made are stupidly unbalanced as shown here
Plus TOS era ships seem better designed for some reason than TNG era ships since warp core breaches were only a thing in the 24th century.
The M5 unit was simply a highly sophisticated system that could control a starship faster than a human being could. It can do nothing that the ship it's installed on can't do and it terminates itself if you hail it and say that it just violated it's own principles by attacking and killing crew on another ship.
If any you would have to discuss M6 and that's pure speculation. And no, computer or not, a constitution refit wouldn't have the capabilities of withstanding a Mk X (or up) phaser salvo and I personally believe that there are limits how far you can upgrade the old 23rd century designs.
/nerd
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Although i do fully agree with angrytarg, i just want to mention that cyberattacks maybe do not occur for a reason in Star Trek.
I think computer systems in Trek are by design not as prone to hacking as todays systems.
Duotronics, multitronics, Isolinear, bioneural positronic and whatever might be very different to todays machines and are without question much more sophisticated. We shouldn't do the mistake and transfer concepts from other Sci Fi universes to Star Trek.
Whatever, this discussion and that lame video Age03 posted have nothing to do with this thread.
I could have made a video showing my grandmother throwing a stone towards a STO galor Class and destroying it. Would that proof anything? lol.
But that's entering "Star Trek totally based on Starfighter dogfights because ships have hangar bays. It only was never shown" territory. M5's capabilities were clearly shown, it did everything to survive. If it just could hack into the enemy computer to blow up or disable the ship it would have done so instead of shooting it. M5 is completely bound to the capabilities of the vessel it's installed on, it's not like NOMAD which could operate autonomously.
Electronic "warfare" is shown on a few occasions, most of the time it consists of a crew member manually establishing a link with the other computer and sending some form of signal to remote control features on that ship (i.e. 'send the command code to lower their shields' or something like that). If you could just point to a ship and "haxx0r" it, why have guns and shields and all? I think it's as yreodred says, those computers should be pretty safe. It's almost idiocy to even allow wireless remote access to those systems in the first place. It would make more sense that if you seek access to the computer you'd have to physically connect to it. Even the Borg had to send drones on board of the Enterprise to physically connect to the computer.
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age03 trolled you all again.
Successful troll is indeed successful.
I've seen the end of that series Rifleman80 made. That silly ship mod roflstomps two crappy Galaxy X models before a third comes out of nowhere and roflstomps it back, since the two original X's did so much damage to it in the fight.
Then again, those are crappy X mods anyway.
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My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
I didn't mean to say there are no defenses, quite the contrary. I was putting an accent to the point that we saw M5 doing all it was capable of to survive and electronic warfare wasn't a part of it or at least someone had told us that M5 attempted anything since the crew was perfectly able to follow M5's every action. Of course iot makes sense to have "both" forms of combat available, I was extrapolating the "instant hacking" idea just a bit
Integrated systems ar perfectly viable, but you can still use those in a closed system. That everything INSIDE the ship is linked is a fact, the computer (even the not M5 regular computer) can take automatic control of every system if the need arises. But why would have to open that system to the outside? Sure, your sensors going "outward", yet those don't need to be able to transmit data from point A to point B, they deliver imagery, meassurements, scans that get interpreted by the ship's computer. Same with communications, you'd use a comm signal with the outside world, but why should anything else be able to "enter" through the comm systems besides the radio signal? (I know Trek doesn't use "radio" but you get my point).
I know that they don't have these kinds of precautions since the computers were hijacked numerous times in every installment of the show, I think. But it's quite foolish to allow that to happen, really. The systems are quite secure, I think that's shown that even the Borg use physical links with the computer.
And Khan was just too angry to think about something minor like that...
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/10char
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.