You don't have to explain to me the mechanics to me on how phaser arrays work. The was never a point when the phaser from the biggest array blasted right through shields and hull of an equal warship, not even on the small Klingon D12 Bird of Prey or it would have been blown away with on shot. The Lance, on the other hand, blasted completely through the shields and thick hull of the Negh'Var Waship and kept going on. You could have lined some more ships above it and got them destroyed as well.
Ok I miss counted the number of large arrays on the Sovereign. The are 5, not 4. On oval shape one on top and 4 slightly shorter ones on the ventral side of sauser.
all those times a galaxy class lost a fight, if it had actually fired weapons like it had shown to be capable of in the past, it couldn't have lost. it just gets jobed as usual, cause the ship had to be destroyed and they were so shamelessly cheap that they used a bop so they could reuse the explosion effects from the previous movie.
Sovereign Class:
Tactical systems
Deflector shields on display
The Sovereign-class starship had several weaponry enhancements over previous starship classes, including quantum torpedoes as well as photon torpedoes, and numerous phaser banks and arrays.
The USS Enterprise-E attacks the Scimitar.
The Sovereign-class originally employed twelve phaser arrays at key locations throughout the ship's hull. Seven dorsal phaser arrays were located on the primary hull, one extending around the saucer section, giving it an oval appearance. Six smaller arrays covered the aft dorsal firing arcs and were located along the aft portion of the saucer section, above the main shuttlebay.
[***Four ventral phaser arrays were located on the primary hull,*** extending around in nearly a half circle on both the starboard and port ventral sides of the saucer section. A single phaser array was located along the ventral section of the engineering hull, running perpendicular to the hull. (Star Trek: First Contact, Star Trek: Insurrection) During the refit, four were added to the trailing edges of the warp nacelle pylons (one dorsal and one ventral for each pylon) bringing the phaser array count to sixteen. (Star Trek Nemesis)]
Primary hull was always considered the sauser section of the Federation ships.
if you wanna get real technical, there are 11 total arrays on the sovereign saucer, but only 3 long ones. the 12th being on the bottom of the secondary hull. nemisis added 4 more on the pylons.
Memory Alpa did not describe All Good Things as you did, so quit lying!!!!!!!! I have copied and pasted the quotes from Memory Alpha and gave you the references. Do I have to highlight the words to you , too? You still arguing with no pasted references. This guy makes up his own technical data with his own opinions. I am done talking to you.
your in denial, we say about the same thing. memory alpha is just the wikipedia of star trek anyway, its not an official canon bible. that entry about AGT was written by some guy like you or me. i had half a page of valid references of the things i talk about, they do the arguing for me, i love how i dont have to make anything up! you dont react well to apposing evidence do you.
I have never said anything about Sovereign being better than the Galaxy. I was proving my point these weapons all serve a purpose and are not useless. The more you have the more could be used as some will get damaged in battle. I think the Galaxy would have done a better job against the Scimitar because it has alot more hull than the Sovereign and it could fire a spread of torpedoes to find the cloaked ship, doing more damage then quick phaser blast. If the Scimitar was ramed by a Galaxy class it might of destroy it or nearly destroyed because the Enterpise D's Sauser crash through a mountain top and still was intact for crash landing.
hey we agree on something. i bet a post dominion war galaxy would have had a more then fair shot at defeating the scimitar outright.
im still not convinced the scimitar is a more powerful warship then the d'deridex, it was more of a super weapon cradle, with a large number of smaller defensive guns and the best cloak ever. at one point, a single d'deridex destroyed DS9 in a decloak ambush in an episode were obrian was jumping back and forth through time. its anti capital ship firepower was enormous, that single nose gun is the most powerful ship mounted energy weapon in ether beta or alpha qudrent. it was just terrible at dealing with smaller targets, like the scimitar seemed to specialize in more.
I think it's abundantly clear that Cryptic feels that the ship is perfectly fine. Its baseline metrics (number of slots, bridge officer seating, etc) are in line with its peers, and its individualised metrics (turn, inertial, hull strength, etc) are where they need to be for the ship's theme and role. It's unlikely they will agree to change them.
On the other hand, it's lack of performance is evident. So perhaps the effort might be better directed towards nudging Cryptic towards rebalancing bridge officer powers, with a particular focus on improving things at Ensign level for Engineering.
When they climbed down from the EPtX timing changes, Cryptic admitted that this was something they needed to look into. I just expect that it'll be a hard sell to get onto the development schedule unless a tangible revenue opportunity can be identified.
changing abilities around effects everything, not just the galaxy. it potentially makes ships that are already quite good, even better, and again, just like with the cruiser commands, the galaxy didn't get a larger proportional bump then anything else did.
maybe adding distribution to other team skills wouldn't be so bad though. every ship with 2 ENS tac stations already has full TT uptime, so does every AtB cruiser. level 3 of the teams skills should give 10 seconds distribution though, version 2 7.5, and version 1 5.
AtD and AtB start at LT and end at level 2 at LTC level, there is no level 3. for both of those skills, why not drop them down to starting at ENS, and ending at LTC at a proper level 3. AtB at ENS many will point to as problematic, due to tech doff popularity, but no ship that doesn't have any business running such a build will suddenly have access to it, and will actually benefit from it if they did, with AtB at ens level. whats actually the bigger concern is that AtB ships will be running EPtS2 and EPtW2/E2, instead of version 1 of those skills. thats a flat buff thats not very deserved.
i think that would fix eng, without throwing the game into to much of a balance upheaval. still, the galaxy with all these eng powers does not fit the ship what so ever, and even if these changes to eng skills got made it still losing out more then it should by not having higher availability of tac and sci skills.
They're definitely aware. They cleaned the forum war out of here once and they're fast to delete any post that's too inflammatory.
Which means they just don't care about this issue.
They rather give some alien ship which no one cares about a Galaxy Class worthy BOFF and Console Layout, instead of just rewoking the GCS (which we do care about) and end this irksome issue once and for all.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
well actually no, they are not where they need to be.
I didn't quite communicate properly there. I'm saying that Cryptic has them where they want them. What you or I think they should be is mostly irrelevant. Unless we can somehow persuade the devs otherwise, and this thread is demonstrating so well how that's going.
changing abilities around effects everything, not just the galaxy.
Oh I know that the ramifications would be complex, but considering that Cryptic has already conceded that Bridge Officer powers need looking at, I still think it's a better strategy. And heck, even one new power line starting at Ensign, one that acts on an external target and preferably aggressive in some way, that would likely make a lot of difference.
One other thing that's been on my mind a bit is the frustration I have with the weapon system in place, and how horribly it treats beams and energy / torpedo combinations. Only unlimited 360 degree weapon cannon, not beam? Cruisers forced into circling broadsides if they want to use beams and bring all weapon slots to bear? I mean, for Kirk's sake, you never heard Picard saying "Adopt 5km orbit from the target". It was always head on, minimum aspect, combined phasers and torpedoes. But this particular rant is only tangentially related to the Galaxy, I suppose.
Regardng Memory Alpha and using quotes from that site as cannon i'd take with a pinch of salt. heres an example of it contradicting itself regarding the Nova Class starship
Technical data :
The Nova-class was designed as a science and scout vessel, intended for short-term planetary research and analysis. It is not typically suitable for combat operations. The Nova design has a maximum speed of warp 8
Tactical systems :
Though Novas were science vessels, they had a wide assortment of weaponry, allowing the vessel to handle many threats on its own
Background :
According to Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, the Nova-class is the successor of the Galaxy-class starship as the next primary explorer ship of Starfleet
Janeway's assessment of the ship class from the episode Equinox , explains that Nova-class starships are short-range planetary research vessels, not designed for long-range tactical missions
Yes this isn't the Galaxy but if Memory Alpha is confused over the role of the Nova, then could we be wrong about the Galaxy being either a powerhouse combat ship or wrong with it being a toothless old Grishna cat.
I don't think that was Memory Alpha's fault. The TNG technical manual had made a guess about the ship should of been in the future but the ship was not shown till Voyager, so stats were updated and the TNG manual was off on stats. That still beats a player's opinon not using any quote to argue against writen data.
all those times a galaxy class lost a fight, if it had actually fired weapons like it had shown to be capable of in the past, it couldn't have lost. it just gets jobed as usual, cause the ship had to be destroyed and they were so shamelessly cheap that they used a bop so they could reuse the explosion effects from the previous movie.
if you wanna get real technical, there are 11 total arrays on the sovereign saucer, but only 3 long ones. the 12th being on the bottom of the secondary hull. nemisis added 4 more on the pylons.
your in denial, we say about the same thing. memory alpha is just the wikipedia of star trek anyway, its not an official canon bible. that entry about AGT was written by some guy like you or me. i had half a page of valid references of the things i talk about, they do the arguing for me, i love how i dont have to make anything up! you dont react well to apposing evidence do you.
hey we agree on something. i bet a post dominion war galaxy would have had a more then fair shot at defeating the scimitar outright.
im still not convinced the scimitar is a more powerful warship then the d'deridex, it was more of a super weapon cradle, with a large number of smaller defensive guns and the best cloak ever. at one point, a single d'deridex destroyed DS9 in a decloak ambush in an episode were obrian was jumping back and forth through time. its anti capital ship firepower was enormous, that single nose gun is the most powerful ship mounted energy weapon in ether beta or alpha qudrent. it was just terrible at dealing with smaller targets, like the scimitar seemed to specialize in more.
If you can't use Memory Alpha as the bible then use your eyes by watching the show. Youtube has clips and episodes you can watch from the show and it did say that Q allowed Picard to travel between the alternate timelines in order to find the solution. I didn't say it was Q's imagination or just fabrication because thats what Riker always suspect.
I don't know why are you arguing with me on the Galaxy vs Sovereign because I am not propping up the Enterpise E over the Enterprise D. The Galaxy was the shows' ship getting to use all it abilities, while the Sovereign had only short screen time on the movies. Actually the Enterprise E was supposed to be another Galaxy but the producers wanted to use another style ship. I was angry on how they killed off the Enterprise D because they could of used a Negh'Var or a Vorcha to battle the ship instead of a repeat battle with a Bird of Prey, that we have seen over and over in Captain Kirk Movies. Also the way damage was midigated was unbecoming as well, because after defeating the borg, everybody knows you mus rotate shield frequencies if your shields are compramised and if you have a warpcore breach that is 5 minutes in progress it can be ejected to save the ship.
Lets just squash this argument. I think the Galaxy X is a moded Galaxy so it can be just as aggressive as a Klingon Battlecruiser.
Which means they just don't care about this issue.
They rather give some alien ship which no one cares about a Galaxy Class worthy BOFF and Console Layout, instead of just rewoking the GCS (which we do care about) and end this irksome issue once and for all.
Just a thought. But why would they want to end the debate on this thread?
I don't mean they do not want to placate their players. I am referring to the fact that many people come in here with ship stats and arguments for them that the devs can read and pick out the best ones for future use.
The term escapes me as I have not had coffee yet. But basically they have a thread going where they share ship designing with the public instead of having one over worked guy trying to do it themselves.
Edit: And right after I post I remember the term. Crowd Sourcing.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Just a thought. But why would they want to end the debate on this thread?
I don't mean they do not want to placate their players. I am referring to the fact that many people come in here with ship stats and arguments for them that the devs can read and pick out the best ones for future use.
The term escapes me as I have not had coffee yet. But basically they have a thread going where they share ship designing with the public instead of having one over worked guy trying to do it themselves.
Edit: And right after I post I remember the term. Crowd Sourcing.
Good point, i really haven't thought that way.
But on the other hand, there will still be demand for new ships with good BOFF layouts, even if the GCS would be reworked. They even could start a thread by themselves asking for ships the playerbase wants.
By now i don't seriously expect the Galaxy -R being reworked, not as long as the same ppl are in charge of Cryptic. What bothers me is the lack of interest on the side of Cryptic. Even more, they do not acknowledge even the possibility the GCS-R could be flawed, just because enough ppl use it in game. It is just a incredible popular ship and that ppl flying it EVEN THOUGH it is a crappy performing ship doesn't come to their minds.
Cryptics devs obviously think that ppl mainly fly ships because of their stats, not because of their meaning, history or just popularity. This (again) shows how little they understand of Star Trek.
Ships in Star Trek have a much greater meanig than most ships in other sci fi universes.
They are almost personalitys on their own, not just a couple of good stats.
(and yet, Crpyitcs devs do not even try to create good looking Starfleet ships, btw)
And i think that's what Cryptics devs don't understand.
No matter how many overpowered alien Lockbox ships they will release, there are some that will keep on flying the Galaxy Class because some things are more important than pure numbers.
Nevertheless having the GCS in such a miserable state doesn't make these people more content when playing STO. Quite the contrary, evertime they see the Galaxy Class being outperformed by a galor Class Excelsior or almost ANY OTHER SHIP, surely doesn't make these people having much fun playing STO.
On the other hand there are ships like the Excelsior which has been made rediculusly strong just because one dev (we all know who) is a fan of it. If it wheren't Star Trek it would sound like a joke to me.
Every other canon ship has been made to shine in STO, just the Galaxy Class not. Even more it is the most crappy and without doubt most boring ship in the whole game!
Some people here in this thread have explained more than once what's wrong with the Galaxy Class and we know that the devs are aware of this thread but obviously they choose to ignore it.
That's just not how you treat customers, it is just insulting in my opinion.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
If you can't use Memory Alpha as the bible then use your eyes by watching the show. Youtube has clips and episodes you can watch from the show and it did say that Q allowed Picard to travel between the alternate timelines in order to find the solution. I didn't say it was Q's imagination or just fabrication because thats what Riker always suspect.
5:00 in, i remembered correctly. it was all set in motion by Q on orders by the continuum, the past, present and future he hoped to used to complete this test. then when he succeeded, it was all reset.
I don't know why are you arguing with me on the Galaxy vs Sovereign because I am not propping up the Enterpise E over the Enterprise D. The Galaxy was the shows' ship getting to use all it abilities, while the Sovereign had only short screen time on the movies. Actually the Enterprise E was supposed to be another Galaxy but the producers wanted to use another style ship. I was angry on how they killed off the Enterprise D because they could of used a Negh'Var or a Vorcha to battle the ship instead of a repeat battle with a Bird of Prey, that we have seen over and over in Captain Kirk Movies. Also the way damage was midigated was unbecoming as well, because after defeating the borg, everybody knows you mus rotate shield frequencies if your shields are compramised and if you have a warpcore breach that is 5 minutes in progress it can be ejected to save the ship.
Lets just squash this argument. I think the Galaxy X is a moded Galaxy so it can be just as aggressive as a Klingon Battlecruiser.
im not really arguing with you about ether ship. you say i make things up, not a true fan, trying to rewrite history, i was defending against that. the stuff i tend to talk about, that so often gets called made up, i just backed it all up. if you dont need convincing about the standing of the galaxy and sovereign class, then good.
a shield less enterprise facing down a vorcha would have been a perfect fight in generations, that would have required a trick move to get out of. without shields, the vorcha would have enough of an edge to beat a galaxy in a strait fight. remodulating shields should have been a no brainier, gross incompetence is the only way to explain that battle.
Okay, so, I just happened to stumble across the Memory Alpha page on battleships.
Guess what one of the four ships mentioned on said page was. :rolleyes:
its a silly thing to split hairs about. no mater the configuration, if judged purely on its military capability, its a battleship. its just so much more then that too
5:00 in, i remembered correctly. it was all set in motion by Q on orders by the continuum, the past, present and future he hoped to used to complete this test. then when he succeeded, it was all reset.
im not really arguing with you about ether ship. you say i make things up, not a true fan, trying to rewrite history, i was defending against that. the stuff i tend to talk about, that so often gets called made up, i just backed it all up. if you dont need convincing about the standing of the galaxy and sovereign class, then good.
a shield less enterprise facing down a vorcha would have been a perfect fight in generations, that would have required a trick move to get out of. without shields, the vorcha would have enough of an edge to beat a galaxy in a strait fight. remodulating shields should have been a no brainier, gross incompetence is the only way to explain that battle.
dont forget the odyssey fought 3 jhas with no functional shields it was only killed by ramming. a bop should have been no problem for ent-d
dont forget the odyssey fought 3 jhas with no functional shields it was only killed by ramming. a bop should have been no problem for ent-d
2 of the most contrived battles in all of sci fi. that bop, other then the first 2 torps it fired that led to the core breach, really didn't do all that much damage to the ship, after getting pounded on for a few minutes. there really was no excuse for that single array shot not to have completely blown away that old scout ship, considering the firepower we have seen a shot like that have in the past
the odyssey, thanks to huge scope of the changeling spying we find out about later, allow the jem hadar to adjust their weapons to make them federation shield proof, with no amount of on the fly adjusting being able to compensate. they seemed to be able to do the opposite as well, in this very first battle not even a galaxy class was able to put a dent in those bug ship shields. by the time the war actually started though, that issue was apparently solved. ~10 minutes of direct hull damage to a the odyssey, and it could still move under its own power, was still completely in tact, just took a lot of superficial and non critical damage.
sure would have been nice to see 1 stand up fight, were it didn't have multiple arms tied behind its back, in CGI between the galaxy and some other large threatening ship.
Would have been nice to see the Galaxy go up against the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought, since the Dominion built it as an answer to the Galaxy's might. The Jem'hadar Battleships were just cannon fodder.
The Sov might be a strong attacker cruiser, fast and strong for a Fed cruiser, but the Galaxy makes me think of a Space version of the WW2 Battleship Bismarck, minus the bad ending. Huge ship, with huge cannons. Whereas I see the Sov as a Destroyer, or a missile boat. Smaller, faster, more nimble, but with a different purpose.
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My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
Would have been nice to see the Galaxy go up against the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought, since the Dominion built it as an answer to the Galaxy's might. The Jem'hadar Battleships were just cannon fodder.
In DS9 the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought had no equal amongst the Alpha Quadrant ships. Even the massive D'deridex which is roughly the same size was still a paper tiger in the Dominion war (see Battle of the Omarion Nebula).
Of course in a MMO where all endgame ships must be relatively in the same ballpark in terms of hitpoints and firepower, the JHDC is stuck being the paper tiger. If it were to be show-accurate, it would have triple the hitpoints and double the weapon slots. In DS9 a lone Galaxy would get pasted by a JHDC. In STO, a good player flying a Galaxy with the right setup can probably beat another good player flying a JHDC.
In DS9 the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought had no equal amongst the Alpha Quadrant ships. Even the massive D'deridex which is roughly the same size was still a paper tiger in the Dominion war (see Battle of the Omarion Nebula).
Of course in a MMO where all endgame ships must be relatively in the same ballpark in terms of hitpoints and firepower, the JHDC is stuck being the paper tiger. If it were to be show-accurate, it would have triple the hitpoints and double the weapon slots. In DS9 a lone Galaxy would get pasted by a JHDC. In STO, a good player flying a Galaxy with the right setup can probably beat another good player flying a JHDC.
the d'deridex seemed very anti capital ship, was never any good at dealing with a horde of bug ships. that battle you refer to was like 20 vs 150 bugs too.
iv found the jem dread in game to be like one of the top 3 beam boats there are right now. with its escort like station setup and slow mover size, thats not an ideal setup. but it seems to get by well enough to put down a ton of beam pain. a galaxy would be no threat to one, in game. in canon there seemed to be about 3 different sizes of them
The boss being a gigantic Winter Epohh Researcher. As you lay waste to the Epohh Horde, she can occasionally cry out things like, "Didn't you want an Epohh friend?"
I didn't quite communicate properly there. I'm saying that Cryptic has them where they want them. What you or I think they should be is mostly irrelevant. Unless we can somehow persuade the devs otherwise, and this thread is demonstrating so well how that's going.
and again, no.
unless you told me that the devs delibaratly made this ship to be the less effective in the game, the only ship that can't do something as good or better than any other ship.
i don't like to go into the "conspiracy" territory, but if that was the devs intention, well it would look like that indeed.
and what i said is true, there is not a single thing you can not do better with an other cruiser in this game, that what you want to do is DPS, tanking, healing, crow control.
no matter the gear, reputation, skillpoint, trait and toon proffesion.
so, you see, and this have nothing to do with what i or other think this ship should be.
i personally think this ship should have been made tactical, but that is irrelevant to the problem because this ship is not bad because it is not tactical, but because even in it own original role given by cryptic, it is completely redundant .
and redundant isn't fit the descrition anyway because it would mean, then, that it is as good as some other.
a simple RA star cruiser is better, in every way.
it not about what we think this ship should be.
it about giving this ship a real role, something that would be incentive for anyone to choose this ship over an other, and not choose it because it is a galaxy.
right now every serious player that anderstand how the game work would never choose this ship against an other considering what this ship is capable to do.
you would only choose it because it a galaxy, not for anything else.
that how logic show you that this ship is not where it should be, in a game that pretend to work on a minimum of balance.
and again, no.
unless you told me that the devs delibaratly made this ship to be the less effective in the game, the only ship that can't do something as good or better than any other ship.
i don't like to go into the "conspiracy" territory, but if that was the devs intention, well it would look like that indeed.
I'm sad that you still haven't comprehended the point.
The devs, I am sure, did not deliberately set out to make the Galaxy less effective. They made sure it had the baselines all T5 ships have (right number of slots, etc). They distributed those baselines according to the ship's assigned niche. And they applied the rules of thumb they have for Federation ships and cruisers. They may have given the result a once over to make sure that it all worked mechanically. What I don't think they would have tested is performance. As long as it fitted the mould prepared for it, the performance would be irrelevant.
Put my briches back in a good old non-fleet galaxy again.
I made it unkillable, but i couldnt scratch the surface of other ships easily. And because of the Escorts kept pulling the threat off me.
Whats the point in a tank if the damage pros just pull the threat right away from you.
The only time i can hold the threat is if i am holding attract fire in an area that those escorts are in. Even then the cube fires at everyone anyways.
But anything i can do in the Galaxy i can do in the Odd Duck, and i can do it with Flair. Tank and CC.
TRIBBLE i can heal/tank/cc in a Vesta too. Galaxy is just a sad sad panda.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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In DS9 the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought had no equal amongst the Alpha Quadrant ships. Even the massive D'deridex which is roughly the same size was still a paper tiger in the Dominion war (see Battle of the Omarion Nebula).
Of course in a MMO where all endgame ships must be relatively in the same ballpark in terms of hitpoints and firepower, the JHDC is stuck being the paper tiger. If it were to be show-accurate, it would have triple the hitpoints and double the weapon slots. In DS9 a lone Galaxy would get pasted by a JHDC. In STO, a good player flying a Galaxy with the right setup can probably beat another good player flying a JHDC.
I don't know about that because they ultimately didn't change the outcome of the war into Dominion favor. The only ship that went 1v1 was the USS Valient( Defiant Class). I think the hull would have gave it an advantage over the Galaxy but not in firepower. That ship did not display very much other than sitting in the background firing ocasionally.
Dear Dev's please can you fix other cruisers to be brought inline with the Galaxy class. Its not that you made the Galaxy bad . It just looks bad compared to every other cruiser that can out turn it, out tank it, out dps it, and offer better crowd control and team support than it.
Cruiser command abilities were a nice touch but i think attract fire is broken as in several ISE and KASE i have run i have failed to attract the attention of either Tactical cubes despite parking and broadsiding at a 3km range whilst my team were outside of 7km.
A Obelisk carrier in my last ISE run was able to hold the Tact cubes aggro over my Galaxy despite again parking and broadsiding within 3km whilst he was outside of 7km and not broadsiding.
So my 7 beams Aux2Bat, EPTW 3, DEM 3, 3 marion doffs and 8-9.5k dps build Galaxy failed to hold aggro against 4 beams.
I have no issues holding aggro with a Galaxy in PVP as most teams know that they can pound on me without the threat of retaliation making me a easy kill or taking me out of being able to offer team support.
So in conclusion Galaxy is good, the other cruisers are overpowered, power creepers that need NERFING.
I'm sad that you still haven't comprehended the point.
The devs, I am sure, did not deliberately set out to make the Galaxy less effective. They made sure it had the baselines all T5 ships have (right number of slots, etc). They distributed those baselines according to the ship's assigned niche. And they applied the rules of thumb they have for Federation ships and cruisers. They may have given the result a once over to make sure that it all worked mechanically. What I don't think they would have tested is performance. As long as it fitted the mould prepared for it, the performance would be irrelevant.
if it happened like that, it is indeed really sad.
you make people paid for a ship that you didn't even conceive with a role in mind but with rules and spreadsheet, and a pretty borked one for that matter.
the result isn't surprising.
and that is even more sad when you don't find this ship equivalent in any other faction.
so it mean that these rules are applying to this ship, and this ship alone.
it may be time to change that now that the game is almost 4 years old.
galaxy player shoudn't be the victim of old rules that never really applies to any other ship in the game.
I don't know about that because they ultimately didn't change the outcome of the war into Dominion favor.
A mere handful of enormous battleships rarely do affect the outcome of a war. There's a reason why most military historians agree that the one class of vehicle that ensures allied victory in WWII more than any other was the Douglas DC-3, and not the King George V-class battleship.
Besides which, I said the JHDC had no equal amongst and single alpha quadrant ship. That doesn't mean it was a ship class that could have turned the tide. History has taught that a big powerful battleship is always a big priority target, and the nation who owns a few can't risk the demoralizing and economic blow of losing even one.
The only ship that went 1v1 was the USS Valient( Defiant Class). I think the hull would have gave it an advantage over the Galaxy but not in firepower. That ship did not display very much other than sitting in the background firing ocasionally.
To quote Jake Sisko referencing the Valiant's sensor logs, the JHDC is "Twice the size of a Galaxy class starship and three times as powerful". Just because we didn't see it open up with all its main weapons on screen doesn't mean it was a paper tiger in canon.
If I were to venture a tactical explanation for why we saw the really big dominion ships sitting in the background firing occasionally rather than getting stuck in at the front of the line, it would be that you don't risk your big expensive assets at the front where they will be priority targets. You send your waves of smaller attack ships first as fodder and keep the big guns in the back, so that by the time the enemy has waded though your screen of small ships and taken heavy losses, they will be damaged and diminished with exhausted and wounded crews, and they will be facing your nice big heavy and completely unscathed battleships.
A mere handful of enormous battleships rarely do affect the outcome of a war. There's a reason why most military historians agree that the one class of vehicle that ensures allied victory in WWII more than any other was the Douglas DC-3, and not the King George V-class battleship.
Besides which, I said the JHDC had no equal amongst and single alpha quadrant ship. That doesn't mean it was a ship class that could have turned the tide. History has taught that a big powerful battleship is always a big priority target, and the nation who owns a few can't risk the demoralizing and economic blow of losing even one.
To quote Jake Sisko referencing the Valiant's sensor logs, the JHDC is "Twice the size of a Galaxy class starship and three times as powerful". Just because we didn't see it open up with all its main weapons on screen doesn't mean it was a paper tiger in canon.
If I were to venture a tactical explanation for why we saw the really big dominion ships sitting in the background firing occasionally rather than getting stuck in at the front of the line, it would be that you don't risk your big expensive assets at the front where they will be priority targets. You send your waves of smaller attack ships first as fodder and keep the big guns in the back, so that by the time the enemy has waded though your screen of small ships and taken heavy losses, they will be damaged and diminished with exhausted and wounded crews, and they will be facing your nice big heavy and completely unscathed battleships.
I never said the Jem Dreadnought was a paper tiger. I said the Jem Battleships were fodder. I meant the Battle cruisers were fodder because they were the ones blowing up all the time. When you look them up, it does call the type, "battleship."
Ok, we're going to take Jake Sico's(amature reporter) tactical analysis on ships and capabilities? The Jem'Hadar Dreadnoughts were formidable carriers but they were not armed with any super weapons or had overwealming power like a Borg cube. Big guns can be questionable since it is armed with only 10 torpedoe launchers and every ship in the shows that had spectacular firpower or abilites at least shown it once. Torpedoes can be electronicly jammed so they can miss their target. The 3 times as powerful reference is not specified so that could mean anything. It could mean that the ship had overwhelming hull strength, or shields. It can't be Warp power because the thing was only seen going warp 4.7. Most of those torp launchers are facing forward because the USS Valient was not taking fire when it was to the rear and underneath the Dreadnought. The Jem Dreadnoughts didn't show anything other than presence and firing some torpedoes. The Cubes shown their abilities, the Scimitar shown its, the Galaxy, Excelsior, Vorcha, Negh'Var, K'Vort battlecruisers, B'rel, Sovereign, Defiant, Akira, Nebula, Keldons, D'Deridex, etc. All those ships showed something special they can do. The Galaxy could easy out manuver the Jem Dread and stay on its rear or ventral side and pound it's hull to till it breaks. The Galaxy does come with 12 phasers arrays and 250 torpedoes to work with and actively use it's science systems to jam or confuse its targets. That is too bigg of a flaw to ignore about Jem'Hadar ship. You can weaken the shields with a 5 torpedoe spread and hit the hull with a powerful phaser blast or more topedoe volleys to seal the deal. The Jem'Hadar Battleships just buit overconfidnence in the Dominion, displayed by their Vorta and Founders. Why else would you build a big ship with all one type of foward facing weapons and have a bare underside wih no point defense weapons. Overconfidence is the answer.
I never said the Jem Dreadnought was a paper tiger. I said the Jem Battleships were fodder. I meant the Battle cruisers were fodder because they were the ones blowing up all the time. When you look them up, it does call the type, "battleship."
Ok, we're going to take Jake Sico's(amature reporter) tactical analysis on ships and capabilities? The Jem'Hadar Dreadnoughts were formidable carriers but they were not armed with any super weapons or had overwealming power like a Borg cube. Big guns can be questionable since it is armed with only 10 torpedoe launchers and every ship in the shows that had spectacular firpower or abilites at least shown it once. Torpedoes can be electronicly jammed so they can miss their target. The 3 times as powerful reference is not specified so that could mean anything. It could mean that the ship had overwhelming hull strength, or shields. It can't be Warp power because the thing was only seen going warp 4.7. Most of those torp launchers are facing forward because the USS Valient was not taking fire when it was to the rear and underneath the Dreadnought. The Jem Dreadnoughts didn't show anything other than presence and firing some torpedoes. The Cubes shown their abilities, the Scimitar shown its, the Galaxy, Excelsior, Vorcha, Negh'Var, K'Vort battlecruisers, B'rel, Sovereign, Defiant, Akira, Nebula, Keldons, D'Deridex, etc. All those ships showed something special they can do. The Galaxy could easy out manuver the Jem Dread and stay on its rear or ventral side and pound it's hull to till it breaks. The Galaxy does come with 12 phasers arrays and 250 torpedoes to work with and actively use it's science systems to jam or confuse its targets. That is too bigg of a flaw to ignore about Jem'Hadar ship. You can weaken the shields with a 5 torpedoe spread and hit the hull with a powerful phaser blast or more topedoe volleys to seal the deal. The Jem'Hadar Battleships just buit overconfidnence in the Dominion, displayed by their Vorta and Founders. Why else would you build a big ship with all one type of foward facing weapons and have a bare underside wih no point defense weapons. Overconfidence is the answer.
those battleships didn't seem to be terribly impressive, they might have been built to be as expendable as the bug ships or something.
the dreadknot the valiant fought though, it wasn't even harmed in the slightest by their attack, and they shot it down with what seemed like a half hearted effort. i can picture the vorta captain laughing at them through the whole fight, saying just shoot torpedoes at them till they did, dont even bother fireing any other weapons, lol.
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all those times a galaxy class lost a fight, if it had actually fired weapons like it had shown to be capable of in the past, it couldn't have lost. it just gets jobed as usual, cause the ship had to be destroyed and they were so shamelessly cheap that they used a bop so they could reuse the explosion effects from the previous movie.
if you wanna get real technical, there are 11 total arrays on the sovereign saucer, but only 3 long ones. the 12th being on the bottom of the secondary hull. nemisis added 4 more on the pylons.
your in denial, we say about the same thing. memory alpha is just the wikipedia of star trek anyway, its not an official canon bible. that entry about AGT was written by some guy like you or me. i had half a page of valid references of the things i talk about, they do the arguing for me, i love how i dont have to make anything up! you dont react well to apposing evidence do you.
hey we agree on something. i bet a post dominion war galaxy would have had a more then fair shot at defeating the scimitar outright.
im still not convinced the scimitar is a more powerful warship then the d'deridex, it was more of a super weapon cradle, with a large number of smaller defensive guns and the best cloak ever. at one point, a single d'deridex destroyed DS9 in a decloak ambush in an episode were obrian was jumping back and forth through time. its anti capital ship firepower was enormous, that single nose gun is the most powerful ship mounted energy weapon in ether beta or alpha qudrent. it was just terrible at dealing with smaller targets, like the scimitar seemed to specialize in more.
changing abilities around effects everything, not just the galaxy. it potentially makes ships that are already quite good, even better, and again, just like with the cruiser commands, the galaxy didn't get a larger proportional bump then anything else did.
maybe adding distribution to other team skills wouldn't be so bad though. every ship with 2 ENS tac stations already has full TT uptime, so does every AtB cruiser. level 3 of the teams skills should give 10 seconds distribution though, version 2 7.5, and version 1 5.
AtD and AtB start at LT and end at level 2 at LTC level, there is no level 3. for both of those skills, why not drop them down to starting at ENS, and ending at LTC at a proper level 3. AtB at ENS many will point to as problematic, due to tech doff popularity, but no ship that doesn't have any business running such a build will suddenly have access to it, and will actually benefit from it if they did, with AtB at ens level. whats actually the bigger concern is that AtB ships will be running EPtS2 and EPtW2/E2, instead of version 1 of those skills. thats a flat buff thats not very deserved.
i think that would fix eng, without throwing the game into to much of a balance upheaval. still, the galaxy with all these eng powers does not fit the ship what so ever, and even if these changes to eng skills got made it still losing out more then it should by not having higher availability of tac and sci skills.
Which means they just don't care about this issue.
They rather give some alien ship which no one cares about a Galaxy Class worthy BOFF and Console Layout, instead of just rewoking the GCS (which we do care about) and end this irksome issue once and for all.
I didn't quite communicate properly there. I'm saying that Cryptic has them where they want them. What you or I think they should be is mostly irrelevant. Unless we can somehow persuade the devs otherwise, and this thread is demonstrating so well how that's going.
Oh I know that the ramifications would be complex, but considering that Cryptic has already conceded that Bridge Officer powers need looking at, I still think it's a better strategy. And heck, even one new power line starting at Ensign, one that acts on an external target and preferably aggressive in some way, that would likely make a lot of difference.
One other thing that's been on my mind a bit is the frustration I have with the weapon system in place, and how horribly it treats beams and energy / torpedo combinations. Only unlimited 360 degree weapon cannon, not beam? Cruisers forced into circling broadsides if they want to use beams and bring all weapon slots to bear? I mean, for Kirk's sake, you never heard Picard saying "Adopt 5km orbit from the target". It was always head on, minimum aspect, combined phasers and torpedoes. But this particular rant is only tangentially related to the Galaxy, I suppose.
I don't think that was Memory Alpha's fault. The TNG technical manual had made a guess about the ship should of been in the future but the ship was not shown till Voyager, so stats were updated and the TNG manual was off on stats. That still beats a player's opinon not using any quote to argue against writen data.
If you can't use Memory Alpha as the bible then use your eyes by watching the show. Youtube has clips and episodes you can watch from the show and it did say that Q allowed Picard to travel between the alternate timelines in order to find the solution. I didn't say it was Q's imagination or just fabrication because thats what Riker always suspect.
I don't know why are you arguing with me on the Galaxy vs Sovereign because I am not propping up the Enterpise E over the Enterprise D. The Galaxy was the shows' ship getting to use all it abilities, while the Sovereign had only short screen time on the movies. Actually the Enterprise E was supposed to be another Galaxy but the producers wanted to use another style ship. I was angry on how they killed off the Enterprise D because they could of used a Negh'Var or a Vorcha to battle the ship instead of a repeat battle with a Bird of Prey, that we have seen over and over in Captain Kirk Movies. Also the way damage was midigated was unbecoming as well, because after defeating the borg, everybody knows you mus rotate shield frequencies if your shields are compramised and if you have a warpcore breach that is 5 minutes in progress it can be ejected to save the ship.
Lets just squash this argument. I think the Galaxy X is a moded Galaxy so it can be just as aggressive as a Klingon Battlecruiser.
That is why the X was made in STO Canon.
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My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
Just a thought. But why would they want to end the debate on this thread?
I don't mean they do not want to placate their players. I am referring to the fact that many people come in here with ship stats and arguments for them that the devs can read and pick out the best ones for future use.
The term escapes me as I have not had coffee yet. But basically they have a thread going where they share ship designing with the public instead of having one over worked guy trying to do it themselves.
Edit: And right after I post I remember the term. Crowd Sourcing.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Good point, i really haven't thought that way.
But on the other hand, there will still be demand for new ships with good BOFF layouts, even if the GCS would be reworked. They even could start a thread by themselves asking for ships the playerbase wants.
By now i don't seriously expect the Galaxy -R being reworked, not as long as the same ppl are in charge of Cryptic. What bothers me is the lack of interest on the side of Cryptic. Even more, they do not acknowledge even the possibility the GCS-R could be flawed, just because enough ppl use it in game. It is just a incredible popular ship and that ppl flying it EVEN THOUGH it is a crappy performing ship doesn't come to their minds.
Cryptics devs obviously think that ppl mainly fly ships because of their stats, not because of their meaning, history or just popularity. This (again) shows how little they understand of Star Trek.
Ships in Star Trek have a much greater meanig than most ships in other sci fi universes.
They are almost personalitys on their own, not just a couple of good stats.
(and yet, Crpyitcs devs do not even try to create good looking Starfleet ships, btw)
And i think that's what Cryptics devs don't understand.
No matter how many overpowered alien Lockbox ships they will release, there are some that will keep on flying the Galaxy Class because some things are more important than pure numbers.
Nevertheless having the GCS in such a miserable state doesn't make these people more content when playing STO. Quite the contrary, evertime they see the Galaxy Class being outperformed by a galor Class Excelsior or almost ANY OTHER SHIP, surely doesn't make these people having much fun playing STO.
On the other hand there are ships like the Excelsior which has been made rediculusly strong just because one dev (we all know who) is a fan of it. If it wheren't Star Trek it would sound like a joke to me.
Every other canon ship has been made to shine in STO, just the Galaxy Class not. Even more it is the most crappy and without doubt most boring ship in the whole game!
Some people here in this thread have explained more than once what's wrong with the Galaxy Class and we know that the devs are aware of this thread but obviously they choose to ignore it.
That's just not how you treat customers, it is just insulting in my opinion.
fine, i'll take your advise and do what i always do anyway, check you tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBwoEXlTph0
5:00 in, i remembered correctly. it was all set in motion by Q on orders by the continuum, the past, present and future he hoped to used to complete this test. then when he succeeded, it was all reset.
im not really arguing with you about ether ship. you say i make things up, not a true fan, trying to rewrite history, i was defending against that. the stuff i tend to talk about, that so often gets called made up, i just backed it all up. if you dont need convincing about the standing of the galaxy and sovereign class, then good.
a shield less enterprise facing down a vorcha would have been a perfect fight in generations, that would have required a trick move to get out of. without shields, the vorcha would have enough of an edge to beat a galaxy in a strait fight. remodulating shields should have been a no brainier, gross incompetence is the only way to explain that battle.
Guess what one of the four ships mentioned on said page was. :rolleyes:
its a silly thing to split hairs about. no mater the configuration, if judged purely on its military capability, its a battleship. its just so much more then that too
dont forget the odyssey fought 3 jhas with no functional shields it was only killed by ramming. a bop should have been no problem for ent-d
2 of the most contrived battles in all of sci fi. that bop, other then the first 2 torps it fired that led to the core breach, really didn't do all that much damage to the ship, after getting pounded on for a few minutes. there really was no excuse for that single array shot not to have completely blown away that old scout ship, considering the firepower we have seen a shot like that have in the past
the odyssey, thanks to huge scope of the changeling spying we find out about later, allow the jem hadar to adjust their weapons to make them federation shield proof, with no amount of on the fly adjusting being able to compensate. they seemed to be able to do the opposite as well, in this very first battle not even a galaxy class was able to put a dent in those bug ship shields. by the time the war actually started though, that issue was apparently solved. ~10 minutes of direct hull damage to a the odyssey, and it could still move under its own power, was still completely in tact, just took a lot of superficial and non critical damage.
sure would have been nice to see 1 stand up fight, were it didn't have multiple arms tied behind its back, in CGI between the galaxy and some other large threatening ship.
The Sov might be a strong attacker cruiser, fast and strong for a Fed cruiser, but the Galaxy makes me think of a Space version of the WW2 Battleship Bismarck, minus the bad ending. Huge ship, with huge cannons. Whereas I see the Sov as a Destroyer, or a missile boat. Smaller, faster, more nimble, but with a different purpose.
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My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
In DS9 the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought had no equal amongst the Alpha Quadrant ships. Even the massive D'deridex which is roughly the same size was still a paper tiger in the Dominion war (see Battle of the Omarion Nebula).
Of course in a MMO where all endgame ships must be relatively in the same ballpark in terms of hitpoints and firepower, the JHDC is stuck being the paper tiger. If it were to be show-accurate, it would have triple the hitpoints and double the weapon slots. In DS9 a lone Galaxy would get pasted by a JHDC. In STO, a good player flying a Galaxy with the right setup can probably beat another good player flying a JHDC.
the d'deridex seemed very anti capital ship, was never any good at dealing with a horde of bug ships. that battle you refer to was like 20 vs 150 bugs too.
iv found the jem dread in game to be like one of the top 3 beam boats there are right now. with its escort like station setup and slow mover size, thats not an ideal setup. but it seems to get by well enough to put down a ton of beam pain. a galaxy would be no threat to one, in game. in canon there seemed to be about 3 different sizes of them
and again, no.
unless you told me that the devs delibaratly made this ship to be the less effective in the game, the only ship that can't do something as good or better than any other ship.
i don't like to go into the "conspiracy" territory, but if that was the devs intention, well it would look like that indeed.
and what i said is true, there is not a single thing you can not do better with an other cruiser in this game, that what you want to do is DPS, tanking, healing, crow control.
no matter the gear, reputation, skillpoint, trait and toon proffesion.
so, you see, and this have nothing to do with what i or other think this ship should be.
i personally think this ship should have been made tactical, but that is irrelevant to the problem because this ship is not bad because it is not tactical, but because even in it own original role given by cryptic, it is completely redundant .
and redundant isn't fit the descrition anyway because it would mean, then, that it is as good as some other.
a simple RA star cruiser is better, in every way.
it not about what we think this ship should be.
it about giving this ship a real role, something that would be incentive for anyone to choose this ship over an other, and not choose it because it is a galaxy.
right now every serious player that anderstand how the game work would never choose this ship against an other considering what this ship is capable to do.
you would only choose it because it a galaxy, not for anything else.
that how logic show you that this ship is not where it should be, in a game that pretend to work on a minimum of balance.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
I'm sad that you still haven't comprehended the point.
The devs, I am sure, did not deliberately set out to make the Galaxy less effective. They made sure it had the baselines all T5 ships have (right number of slots, etc). They distributed those baselines according to the ship's assigned niche. And they applied the rules of thumb they have for Federation ships and cruisers. They may have given the result a once over to make sure that it all worked mechanically. What I don't think they would have tested is performance. As long as it fitted the mould prepared for it, the performance would be irrelevant.
I made it unkillable, but i couldnt scratch the surface of other ships easily. And because of the Escorts kept pulling the threat off me.
Whats the point in a tank if the damage pros just pull the threat right away from you.
The only time i can hold the threat is if i am holding attract fire in an area that those escorts are in. Even then the cube fires at everyone anyways.
But anything i can do in the Galaxy i can do in the Odd Duck, and i can do it with Flair. Tank and CC.
TRIBBLE i can heal/tank/cc in a Vesta too. Galaxy is just a sad sad panda.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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I don't know about that because they ultimately didn't change the outcome of the war into Dominion favor. The only ship that went 1v1 was the USS Valient( Defiant Class). I think the hull would have gave it an advantage over the Galaxy but not in firepower. That ship did not display very much other than sitting in the background firing ocasionally.
Cruiser command abilities were a nice touch but i think attract fire is broken as in several ISE and KASE i have run i have failed to attract the attention of either Tactical cubes despite parking and broadsiding at a 3km range whilst my team were outside of 7km.
A Obelisk carrier in my last ISE run was able to hold the Tact cubes aggro over my Galaxy despite again parking and broadsiding within 3km whilst he was outside of 7km and not broadsiding.
So my 7 beams Aux2Bat, EPTW 3, DEM 3, 3 marion doffs and 8-9.5k dps build Galaxy failed to hold aggro against 4 beams.
I have no issues holding aggro with a Galaxy in PVP as most teams know that they can pound on me without the threat of retaliation making me a easy kill or taking me out of being able to offer team support.
So in conclusion Galaxy is good, the other cruisers are overpowered, power creepers that need NERFING.
if it happened like that, it is indeed really sad.
you make people paid for a ship that you didn't even conceive with a role in mind but with rules and spreadsheet, and a pretty borked one for that matter.
the result isn't surprising.
and that is even more sad when you don't find this ship equivalent in any other faction.
so it mean that these rules are applying to this ship, and this ship alone.
it may be time to change that now that the game is almost 4 years old.
galaxy player shoudn't be the victim of old rules that never really applies to any other ship in the game.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
A mere handful of enormous battleships rarely do affect the outcome of a war. There's a reason why most military historians agree that the one class of vehicle that ensures allied victory in WWII more than any other was the Douglas DC-3, and not the King George V-class battleship.
Besides which, I said the JHDC had no equal amongst and single alpha quadrant ship. That doesn't mean it was a ship class that could have turned the tide. History has taught that a big powerful battleship is always a big priority target, and the nation who owns a few can't risk the demoralizing and economic blow of losing even one.
To quote Jake Sisko referencing the Valiant's sensor logs, the JHDC is "Twice the size of a Galaxy class starship and three times as powerful". Just because we didn't see it open up with all its main weapons on screen doesn't mean it was a paper tiger in canon.
If I were to venture a tactical explanation for why we saw the really big dominion ships sitting in the background firing occasionally rather than getting stuck in at the front of the line, it would be that you don't risk your big expensive assets at the front where they will be priority targets. You send your waves of smaller attack ships first as fodder and keep the big guns in the back, so that by the time the enemy has waded though your screen of small ships and taken heavy losses, they will be damaged and diminished with exhausted and wounded crews, and they will be facing your nice big heavy and completely unscathed battleships.
I never said the Jem Dreadnought was a paper tiger. I said the Jem Battleships were fodder. I meant the Battle cruisers were fodder because they were the ones blowing up all the time. When you look them up, it does call the type, "battleship."
Ok, we're going to take Jake Sico's(amature reporter) tactical analysis on ships and capabilities? The Jem'Hadar Dreadnoughts were formidable carriers but they were not armed with any super weapons or had overwealming power like a Borg cube. Big guns can be questionable since it is armed with only 10 torpedoe launchers and every ship in the shows that had spectacular firpower or abilites at least shown it once. Torpedoes can be electronicly jammed so they can miss their target. The 3 times as powerful reference is not specified so that could mean anything. It could mean that the ship had overwhelming hull strength, or shields. It can't be Warp power because the thing was only seen going warp 4.7. Most of those torp launchers are facing forward because the USS Valient was not taking fire when it was to the rear and underneath the Dreadnought. The Jem Dreadnoughts didn't show anything other than presence and firing some torpedoes. The Cubes shown their abilities, the Scimitar shown its, the Galaxy, Excelsior, Vorcha, Negh'Var, K'Vort battlecruisers, B'rel, Sovereign, Defiant, Akira, Nebula, Keldons, D'Deridex, etc. All those ships showed something special they can do. The Galaxy could easy out manuver the Jem Dread and stay on its rear or ventral side and pound it's hull to till it breaks. The Galaxy does come with 12 phasers arrays and 250 torpedoes to work with and actively use it's science systems to jam or confuse its targets. That is too bigg of a flaw to ignore about Jem'Hadar ship. You can weaken the shields with a 5 torpedoe spread and hit the hull with a powerful phaser blast or more topedoe volleys to seal the deal. The Jem'Hadar Battleships just buit overconfidnence in the Dominion, displayed by their Vorta and Founders. Why else would you build a big ship with all one type of foward facing weapons and have a bare underside wih no point defense weapons. Overconfidence is the answer.
those battleships didn't seem to be terribly impressive, they might have been built to be as expendable as the bug ships or something.
the dreadknot the valiant fought though, it wasn't even harmed in the slightest by their attack, and they shot it down with what seemed like a half hearted effort. i can picture the vorta captain laughing at them through the whole fight, saying just shoot torpedoes at them till they did, dont even bother fireing any other weapons, lol.