His exact words were: "Beam arrays are WAD." Which goes to show he's probably a cannon jocky, or doesn't actually understand what those lines of color coming out of his ship do, or if he does, exactly how massive of an effect power levels have on them.
I think he has a general idea but his knowledge seems to have gaps?
Actually, his answer made the solution for all cruiser and sci vessel pilots. Instead of trying to force a change of mind why not take this approach?
"Capt. Geko, the recent passives coupled with the greater availability of high end shields and some previous NPC buffs has made beams feel a little behind, can you guys look at upping their damage?"
He already said that they were WAD, so instead of trying to prove something is broken because it seems that way to some is not going to work. instead you should be asking for a DPS boos which is what you really want anyway. Of course, buffing beams would negate the passives and gear people have spent cash or ground like crazy to get...this is a painted into a corner situation indeed.
I would like to see the magical metrics that imply beams are working as intended. If they don't exist, then we can be sure of the actual intention.
I think too many people simply don't want to accept that beams are suppossed to do less dps by design. Its a design decision. It simply astonishes me how the community would cling to power drain as "the one thing holding beams back". No, they are held back by design. It would be far more productive to instead ask for a straight out beam DPS buff. Its not like Cryptic isn't inclined to help, why do you think they released a Beam Array that cost no power to use and a 360 weapon that procs extra weapon power?
The question that was asked in the interview was as follows:
"Many people flying ships armed with beam arrays feel that these weapons are somewhat lackluster, due to the way that beam arrays seem to drain a lot more power than cannons or turrets. These leads to beam heavy ships not coming anywhere close to their rated damage output because of the power drain issues. Is this something we can have looked at or are beam arrays performing at expected levels?"
The basic question was "the power drain on beams seems too excessive. Is this intended, and if not, can someone look into it?"
The question I was asked was basically "my beams are not as good as cannons, can you make them better".
His interpretation of the question showed me that one or more of the following is true:
1. He is biased towards cannons.
2. He didn't really listen to the question that was asked.
3. He read too much into the question.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
His interpretation of the question showed me that one or more of the following is true:
1. He is biased towards cannons.
2. He didn't really listen to the question that was asked.
3. He read too much into the question.
Or maybe he's read the forums and has correctly interpreted what a very loud subset of people are asking for? Sometimes it seems like the very vocal minority want beams to be as powerful as DHCs. They will list a huge number of "lore" and "common sense" reasons why this should be so.
Or maybe he's read the forums and has correctly interpreted what a very loud subset of people are asking for? Sometimes it seems like the very vocal minority want beams to be as powerful as DHCs. They will list a huge number of "lore" and "common sense" reasons why this should be so.
While I can agree that he's read the forums and seen the posts from people whining about beams not being as good as DHCs, but that would reinforce that he had read too much into the question.
There are just as many people who believe that beams shouldn't be doing the same damage as an cannons, as there are those that believe that they should. However, the people that belong to the first group are often lumped into the second group.
I do believe that there is problem with the power drain for beams. I believe this as I have seen my Weapon Power drop to the low 60s, when it should it should be going down to the low 80s. And that is with my Engie overcapping his Weapon Power (to 153) to compensate for the drain and no special beam attacks.
It wouldn't hurt to look at it and see if there is a problem with it.
And for the record, I belong to the group that thinks that beams should do less damage than cannons. My Engie flies a cruiser and does quite well with beams; when I want to use cannons, I have my Tac in an escort.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
Only time I've ever seen this is if I've been hit with some kind of power drain attack. Do you see this consistently?
It doesn't happen all the time, but enough for it to be expected, I would have to say 2 to 3 times a minute.
I have actually been thinking of moving up from EPtW1 to EPtW3 (bringing the overcap to 168) to compensate. With EPtW3, my Weapon Power drops to the low 80s.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
If what you really want to do is be a damage dealer then go ahead and change to escorts.
Better yet, get some alts. That way you won't feel tied to any one ship type if you have alts that fly different ship types.
I think too many people simply don't want to accept that beams are suppossed to do less dps by design. Its a design decision. It simply astonishes me how the community would cling to power drain as "the one thing holding beams back". No, they are held back by design. It would be far more productive to instead ask for a straight out beam DPS buff. Its not like Cryptic isn't inclined to help, why do you think they released a Beam Array that cost no power to use and a 360 weapon that procs extra weapon power?
They can accept that beams are doing less damage. But they are not willing to accept that beams are doing SO LESS damage. Did you ever try to get an escort or an other ship with beams under pressure? That is a waste of time an energy, because you cant do enough damage to get any usefull result. Ships with beam weapons are only henchmen in this game. But no one realy wants to play only a henchmen.
btw.: i have 18 toons on my account. i tried many things in this game, but after the final conclusion i have to say that escorts are the most valuable ships in that game. This needs to be changed! if you wont buff beam weapons to increase the value of cruisers and sci-ships, so decrease the escort survivability as payment for their damage.
The UI cheats to put it simply. It refreshes it's display at a set time, not in reaction to things going on. That means the listed 'weapon power' you see is what the power was at for that mere portion of a second that your UI refreshed and is pretty much meaningless considering how many things are going on that effect it constantly along with latency.
TLDR: Just because it listed you have 90 power, does not mean that your beam fired with the 90 power damage bonus.
Beams AND Turrets need less power drain, after having a long discussion last night about my ship build we concluded that it was my Turrets sucking power, Turrets put out the very least damage and DPS in the game so one would think power levels would reflect that ...right?
The UI cheats to put it simply. It refreshes it's display at a set time, not in reaction to things going on. That means the listed 'weapon power' you see is what the power was at for that mere portion of a second that your UI refreshed and is pretty much meaningless considering how many things are going on that effect it constantly along with latency.
TLDR: Just because it listed you have 90 power, does not mean that your beam fired with the 90 power damage bonus.
I can buy that the UI doesn't update properly, however the DPS per beam also reflects (what I perceive as) extra drain.
Projected Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 153: 873.49
Actual Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 153: 393.2
Projected Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 168: 908.96
Actual Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 168: 458.74
While I do not expect the Average DPS per Beam to actually equal the Projected, but it should be closer than what the Actual is showing.
So I don't think this is just an observational error on my part and it does lead me to believe that there is something wrong with the drain mechanic for beams.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
I think too many people simply don't want to accept that beams are suppossed to do less dps by design. Its a design decision. It simply astonishes me how the community would cling to power drain as "the one thing holding beams back". No, they are held back by design. It would be far more productive to instead ask for a straight out beam DPS buff. Its not like Cryptic isn't inclined to help, why do you think they released a Beam Array that cost no power to use and a 360 weapon that procs extra weapon power?
It is more than DPS by design. These weapons are utterly obsolete; what is the point in a wide angle attack, when escorts can simply make up that angle with massive turn rate, and then proceed to put out a much more damaging attack? And the old "Cruisers aren't meant to be damage dealers" nugget just doesn't work. We have been over the role of DPS in this game countless times, and know that nothing else matters.
This thread is still going ? surprised it hasn't been locked by a mod by now.
Simply put its not beams or cannons but the abuse of Aux 2 Batt which (when running multiple copies) can allow you to run multiple Boff powers in a short space of time.
Also people need to grow a pair and play the game better/improve their build/fly an escort yadda yadda ya or GTFO.
You cannot have a game where multiple classes are equal. TACS are meant to damage, what do people not understand about that ?
You cannot be an engineer and be in a cruiser an out dps an escort because engineers are not meant to do that nor are sci ships. Sorry people but get over it already, All the negativity and butthurt on the forums really is depressing.
Even if escorts or dhc got nerfed YOU WOULD STILL FIND ESCORTS BEATING THE C**P out of other ships.
Im a Tac, I do damage, its my job in an escort to kill you and I will. Even if you want to tie both hands behind my back I will faceroll the keyboard and still kill you.
Instead of the witch hunt against escorts and DHC go play with multiple copies of aux 2 batt and aux 2 batt doffs and you will see what I mean.
Even if I was a Tac in an escort with all beams I could still out dps any other ship without abusing aux 2 batt.
Reading threads like this with each and every person with their own agenda having no interest in the advancement of the game, just their own personal agenda being fuelled by the butthurt really is very very sad.
Its a shame the energy put into this thread is wasted when it could be better focused elsewhere. Look ouside you own immediate agenda of the " I IZ LEET UBER PWNZER" and appreciate that each ship has a role to play.
If anything should be done then yes by all means give beams less drain and allow them to fire off quicker (it does seem to me the animation in game is not consistent with beam firing ie it is too long especially if you look at battle scense from DS9 beam weapon firing) OR give beams powers like beam rapid fire ?
Either way it doesn't matter, escorts will use beams and still roll people unless people actually get together, and use tactics.
If your in pvp 1 person tractors an escort, sci fires a tricobolt out its rear, leaving the rest to pick off the pieces ?
HOW DAM HARD IS IT FOR YOU ALL TO GRASP THE BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF THIS GAME ? THAT INCLUDES DEVELOPERS LIKE GECKO WHO ARE ALSO IINEPTLY USELESS
sigh ...... enough this really is too depressing to read the idiocy being shown here.
im not reading the entire thread to see if anyone has done with, but has anyone done any fact finding?
I decided to do a small math test, white beam arrays (cruiser broadside 7 beams not including torpedoes) vs 3 DHC and 3 Turrets (for escort).
Also, all weapons are non buffed or effected by skills and at 100 weapon power.
Results where 7 beams are 1540 dps with no energy drain and 1078 with energy drain
Escort with 3 DHC and 3 Turrets when having DHC start firing first was 1164 dps with no energy drain and 897.6 with drain.
So, I dont see how cannons are that ott or am i missing something?
I have done some stat finding (I created a spreadsheet to calculate damage and DPS of various weapons and it's fairly accurate, though incomplete) and my results are as follows
Scenario: All weapons Mk X Common. 8 Beam arrays vs 4 DHCs, Power level: 145, Starship weapons skill: 9 + Omega rep, starship energy weapons: 9
This thread is still going ? surprised it hasn't been locked by a mod by now.
Simply put its not beams or cannons but the abuse of Aux 2 Batt which (when running multiple copies) can allow you to run multiple Boff powers in a short space of time.
Also people need to grow a pair and play the game better/improve their build/fly an escort yadda yadda ya or GTFO.
You cannot have a game where multiple classes are equal. TACS are meant to damage, what do people not understand about that ?
You cannot be an engineer and be in a cruiser an out dps an escort because engineers are not meant to do that nor are sci ships. Sorry people but get over it already, All the negativity and butthurt on the forums really is depressing.
Even if escorts or dhc got nerfed YOU WOULD STILL FIND ESCORTS BEATING THE C**P out of other ships.
Im a Tac, I do damage, its my job in an escort to kill you and I will. Even if you want to tie both hands behind my back I will faceroll the keyboard and still kill you.
Instead of the witch hunt against escorts and DHC go play with multiple copies of aux 2 batt and aux 2 batt doffs and you will see what I mean.
Even if I was a Tac in an escort with all beams I could still out dps any other ship without abusing aux 2 batt.
Reading threads like this with each and every person with their own agenda having no interest in the advancement of the game, just their own personal agenda being fuelled by the butthurt really is very very sad.
Its a shame the energy put into this thread is wasted when it could be better focused elsewhere. Look ouside you own immediate agenda of the " I IZ LEET UBER PWNZER" and appreciate that each ship has a role to play.
If anything should be done then yes by all means give beams less drain and allow them to fire off quicker (it does seem to me the animation in game is not consistent with beam firing ie it is too long especially if you look at battle scense from DS9 beam weapon firing) OR give beams powers like beam rapid fire ?
Either way it doesn't matter, escorts will use beams and still roll people unless people actually get together, and use tactics.
If your in pvp 1 person tractors an escort, sci fires a tricobolt out its rear, leaving the rest to pick off the pieces ?
HOW DAM HARD IS IT FOR YOU ALL TO GRASP THE BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF THIS GAME ? THAT INCLUDES DEVELOPERS LIKE GECKO WHO ARE ALSO IINEPTLY USELESS
sigh ...... enough this really is too depressing to read the idiocy being shown here.
It is depressing to read so much ignorance from players like you. A gm should delete such silly posts. This does not help anyone.
This thread is still going ? surprised it hasn't been locked by a mod by now.
Simply put its not beams or cannons but the abuse of Aux 2 Batt which (when running multiple copies) can allow you to run multiple Boff powers in a short space of time.
Also people need to grow a pair and play the game better/improve their build/fly an escort yadda yadda ya or GTFO.
You cannot have a game where multiple classes are equal. TACS are meant to damage, what do people not understand about that ?
You cannot be an engineer and be in a cruiser an out dps an escort because engineers are not meant to do that nor are sci ships. Sorry people but get over it already, All the negativity and butthurt on the forums really is depressing.
Even if escorts or dhc got nerfed YOU WOULD STILL FIND ESCORTS BEATING THE C**P out of other ships.
Im a Tac, I do damage, its my job in an escort to kill you and I will. Even if you want to tie both hands behind my back I will faceroll the keyboard and still kill you.
Instead of the witch hunt against escorts and DHC go play with multiple copies of aux 2 batt and aux 2 batt doffs and you will see what I mean.
Even if I was a Tac in an escort with all beams I could still out dps any other ship without abusing aux 2 batt.
Reading threads like this with each and every person with their own agenda having no interest in the advancement of the game, just their own personal agenda being fuelled by the butthurt really is very very sad.
Its a shame the energy put into this thread is wasted when it could be better focused elsewhere. Look ouside you own immediate agenda of the " I IZ LEET UBER PWNZER" and appreciate that each ship has a role to play.
If anything should be done then yes by all means give beams less drain and allow them to fire off quicker (it does seem to me the animation in game is not consistent with beam firing ie it is too long especially if you look at battle scense from DS9 beam weapon firing) OR give beams powers like beam rapid fire ?
Either way it doesn't matter, escorts will use beams and still roll people unless people actually get together, and use tactics.
If your in pvp 1 person tractors an escort, sci fires a tricobolt out its rear, leaving the rest to pick off the pieces ?
HOW DAM HARD IS IT FOR YOU ALL TO GRASP THE BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF THIS GAME ? THAT INCLUDES DEVELOPERS LIKE GECKO WHO ARE ALSO IINEPTLY USELESS
sigh ...... enough this really is too depressing to read the idiocy being shown here.
This is 1 of the best posts ever. A little crude yes, but...Thumbs up for speaking his mind and having some ba**s to say what many players are afraid to say!
Forgive the snip, but your post was rather long. And much of what you said is depressingly correct. But a lot of it was also wrong. Many of us aren't here to "make ourselves uber" as you seem to think, but we're instead here trying to figure out why one weapon is so badly gimped. And it is gimped.
Let's take a look at your standard Beam Array. The base DPS of a standard mk X BA is around 200. It has a drain of -10 energy when fired in tandem with other weapons. It also has a 250 degree firing arc. So overall, it's not a terrible weapon. Until you take a look at every other factor. First off, BAs are hardly ever used on their own. Seeing fewer than 4 BAs on a ship just doesn't happen. In fact in many cases, you tend to see six or seven (depending on if the cruiser has the KCB).
So one thinks, oh ok, that's 60 power drain, it's manageable. Yes and no. Even if you constantly cycle an EPtW3, you will hard cap your weapons power at 150, and you will drop to 85 or 90 every time you do a full broadside with 6 beams, 75-80 if you use 7. That's an awfully HUGE energy drain. Compared to their partners in crime, the DHC with their 12 energy drain, but MUCH SHORTER FIRING CYCLE, it just gets obscene. Comparing a standard fully cannonscort to a full BA cruiser:
DHCx4 + Turretx2 + KCB/Another turret ~ 72 power drain.
8 BA ~ 80 power drain.
So it's about equal. Or is it?
Your standard DHC at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 1200-1500 damage (depending on consoles etc). Your standard turret at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 500-800 damage (again depending on consoles etc). Your standard BA at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 800-1000 damage (again dependent on consoles etc). So all things considered, two BAs vs a DHC + turret are about equal (~1600-2k vs ~ 1700-2300). UNTIL YOU BRING POWER DRAIN INTO THE EQUATION.
For some whacked reason, it was decided that even a TINY power drain would have a severe effect on beam array damage. It's something ludicrous, like for each 10 power, the BAs damage level drops by 20%. So at 100 weapons power, each BA is hitting for ~ 200% damage, at 125 they are hitting for ~ 250% damage. However, drop them by even 20 power below 100 (like what you will see with a standard 6-7 BA broadside, 7 actually dropping it by more like 30), and suddenly you're only hitting for 140-160% damage. Which would be acceptable... except for the fact that there seems to be some kind of bug or something in the system that actually drops it to more like 125-130% damage. Which brings your average BA hit down to around 500 when your weapons power is at 75.
Then we look at DHCs. Same system, but their damage does not appear to be as heavily affected by power levels. A DHC hitting at 100 weapons power will easily deal 200% damage, and at 125 seems to be closer to 270-280%. But drop it by the same amount, and it doesn't lose nearly as much damage as a BA.
The lowest I have ever seen my BAs hit for is 120% damage, even fully overclocked (again, against a target with no skills using a captain with no skills, both ships had no consoles, 6 standard mk 1 WHITE BAs at 2k range, weapons power overclocked maxed at 150 (hit an EPtW3, but allowed for 15 seconds to pass so there was no damage bonus from the BOff ability, also hit an EPS transfer bonus to be sure my weapons power was as high as possible)). My weapons power at the end of that broadside was at 80-85. I then did the same thing with DHCs + turrets, fully overclocked, same conditions, everything the same, and my power level dropped to roughly the same levels. But my DHCs were still hitting for 150% damage.
So DHCs hit a lot harder. DUH. They are supposed to, I have no illusions to otherwise. But really? Hitting THAT much harder? That seems a little off to me. But this just base white junk. Move on to full mk XII purple equipment, and the gap grows ridiculously. A mk XII purple DHC with full buffs on itself and full debuffs on a target will EASILY hit for 12-15k PER SHOT. Do the same with a BA... and you will usually only hit 5-6k per shot max. Firing arcs? Pssssh. Ships that use DHCs are so nimble that firing arcs aren't much of an issue. Range mitigation? That's the ONLY thing BAs have right now that makes them even slightly more useful than DHCs. DHCs from 10k out suffer from a ~60% damage penalty, beams only ~40%. But the DHCs hit so much harder, that seems almost a null point.
So yes, we want better BAs. We don't want them to hit as hard as DHCs (that's just stupid), but don't want them to be as horribly weak as they are now (cuz let's face it, that's just stupid too), or if they are to be so horribly weak, at least let there be a decent reason for it.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Also need to factor in the narrower firing arc of DHCs vs BAs. BAs can maintain fire on a target longer while Escorts will need to maneuver to keep their cannons on target.
I can buy that the UI doesn't update properly, however the DPS per beam also reflects (what I perceive as) extra drain.
Projected Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 153: 873.49
Actual Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 153: 393.2
Projected Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 168: 908.96
Actual Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 168: 458.74
While I do not expect the Average DPS per Beam to actually equal the Projected, but it should be closer than what the Actual is showing.
So I don't think this is just an observational error on my part and it does lead me to believe that there is something wrong with the drain mechanic for beams.
I have done some stat finding (I created a spreadsheet to calculate damage and DPS of various weapons and it's fairly accurate, though incomplete) and my results are as follows
Scenario: All weapons Mk X Common. 8 Beam arrays vs 4 DHCs, Power level: 145, Starship weapons skill: 9 + Omega rep, starship energy weapons: 9
Again, not 100% accurate but it is within 100 points on any given figure.
Any shots fired at over 125 power are counted as 125 due to how the power works in that regard all shots fired with no buffs
It is because you are both making false assumptions about what over-capping power does, along with the rest of the community.
I will keep it simple. Three beams, 135 power (so 10 over cap) this is how your shots will be. Beams are A, B, C, shot 1, 2, 3, 4.
A1 @ 125
B1 @ 115
C1 @ 105
Now the 10 power jumps back into the system
A2-4 @ 115
B2-4 @ 105
C2-4 @ 95
OR
Possibility not sure
A, B, & C 3-4 @ 95
This is why it does nothing for DHCs. This is why it does little for cannons compared to what it does for beams. And this is why power drain is so much stronger. Power overcapping will never allow two weapons to fire at 125 power.
But how does one test this? Over cap with various energy types and parse the results.
It is because you are both making false assumptions about what over-capping power does, along with the rest of the community.
I will keep it simple. Three beams, 135 power (so 10 over cap) this is how your shots will be. Beams are A, B, C, shot 1, 2, 3, 4.
A1 @ 125
B1 @ 115
C1 @ 105
Now the 10 power jumps back into the system
A2-4 @ 115
B2-4 @ 105
C2-4 @ 95
OR
Possibility not sure
A, B, & C 3-4 @ 95
This is why it does nothing for DHCs. This is why it does little for cannons compared to what it does for beams. And this is why power drain is so much stronger. Power overcapping will never allow two weapons to fire at 125 power.
But how does one test this? Over cap with various energy types and parse the results.
That makes sense, so I'm not too far wrong with my figures, I will do some further testing if I can get the motivation to pick up that spreadsheet and work on it again and make any required adjustments.
It is because you are both making false assumptions about what over-capping power does, along with the rest of the community.
I will keep it simple. Three beams, 135 power (so 10 over cap) this is how your shots will be. Beams are A, B, C, shot 1, 2, 3, 4.
A1 @ 125
B1 @ 115
C1 @ 105
Now the 10 power jumps back into the system
A2-4 @ 115
B2-4 @ 105
C2-4 @ 95
OR
Possibility not sure
A, B, & C 3-4 @ 95
This is why it does nothing for DHCs. This is why it does little for cannons compared to what it does for beams. And this is why power drain is so much stronger. Power overcapping will never allow two weapons to fire at 125 power.
But how does one test this? Over cap with various energy types and parse the results.
Ok, did some number crunching on what you posted. That is more inline with what I am seeing. I used a 7 Beam build for comparison.
With 7 Beams at 125 power no overcapping, I should expect an average DPS per beam to be about 587.
With 7 Beams at 160 power with overcapping, I should expect an average DPS per beam to be about 804. This was used just for comparison.
I was able to run two tests with 7 Beams. One with overcapping, and one without.
Without overcapping and 7 beams I saw an average DPS per beam of 380.
With overcapping and 7 beams I saw an average DPS per beam of 467.
The overall encounter DPS without overcapping was 5886.21
The overall encounter DPS with overcapping was 7721.24
Overcapping or not, the method you posted was more accurate.
There does appear to be some benefit with overcapping regardless.
Further testing will be required. Will take me a few days to do so, as I work the next few days.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
For some whacked reason, it was decided that even a TINY power drain would have a severe effect on beam array damage. It's something ludicrous, like for each 10 power, the BAs damage level drops by 20%.
It's power drain duty cycles, pure and simple. Dual heavies only drain power 25% of the time so you will get cannons firing with their power drains out of sequence. You may have 4 dual heavy cannons firing "at the same time", but each one spends the majority of its time NOT draining power. Versus beams which drain power 80% of the time and where it is literally impossible to have multiple beams without stacking multiple drains on eachother.
Though if we want to be entirely correct about this: Since I already pointed this issue out to Cryptic and they dismissed it as "working as designed", the problem isn't beams. The problem is Cryptic.
If by maneuver you mean put engine speed at 1/4 and then turn? Then yes, they need to maneuver. And that's SUCH a hardship.
-.-
That's sadly a function of the game engine and damage scaling. If escorts really had to do damage in passes then DHCs would have to do several times their current DPS to make up for the loss of uptime. That would move the baseline of what a ship would need to able to survive way higher than it is right now... both for PCs and NPCs... which then would push beam and torp/mine damage up as well but all that would do is bum up the extremes. Its a balancing nightmare to even think about it. Having to balance extreme spike vs sustained would become unfeasable, so instead they fudge it. DHC spike isn't as high and DHCs provide more of a constant DPS without having to rely on passes.
Also, all that extra moving around escorts does require effort. In my engi cruiser movement isn't really a concern beyond not stopping and keeping it turning.
Besides, when moving at 1/4 impulse escorts aren't getting much of their vaunted mobility defense are they?
The question being, how to persuade Cryptic that the design isn't good?
Easy, you don't because you can't. You'd be trying to convince them that a system isn't working as intended, which it is. Instead you need to show Cryptic that defenses have increased across the board on PCs and NPCs and even with the best weapons the current metagame calls for a little more damage than cruisers can do right now. You aren't asking for a huge change, just a small boost. It could as simple as simply giving all cruisers a little extra power to weapons if you wanted to keep to the beam drain argument.
I think this has teh greatest chance of success since Cryptic has already seen it as a possible solution. Why else do you think the very first Rep grinds offer a beam array that costs no weapon power and a 360 weapon that procs EXTRA weapon power?
Thank you HereticKnight for a well constructed post. Makes a refreshing change to read a well thought out and constructive post for once. I amdit I was a little crude in the way I expressed myself so apologies but again thank you for a refreshing and well worded post.
My point I was trying to get across is yes beams do need to be overhauled, but the answer isn't to nerf cannons and escorts as a lot of cruiser players would like.
Im sure if every cruiser pilot was being honest, they just want to see escorts and sci ships nerfed so their ship is the "superior" ship.
I also don't believe geckos ill thought out idea of addind consoles, warp cores etc etc is the answer either.
Ive got my constructive hat on so heres my constructive post for the day
1) Decrease energy drain on beams ..... decrease the drain but increase the firing rate. If you watch all battle scenes from DS9 the beam firing was short sharp and rapid. As well as decreasing energy drain I would also propose increasing damage as well. Not by much, say by an extra 10% on mk 12 and scale it down.
Beam rapid fire .... targets one enemy (unlike fire at will) and allows short sharp rapid beam firing.
Beam 360 ...... shoots a beam in one plane at say 20 degree angles and does a 360 degree around the arc of your ship. Kinda like when picard was trying to find the scimitar when it was cloaked.
Beam scatter volley ... unlike fire at will focuses on a cone infront of you unlike fire at will which can spread the beam arc to multiple targets
3) The distance at which beams do damage could also be adjusted as well :
I don't have figures to hand but beam damage from what I remember increases the closer you get. So how about making that distance less ie you start doing low damage at 10 - 8 clicks, moderate damage at 8 -7 cliks, high damage at 7 - 0 clicks
4) Incorporate some mechanism into the game that can be player trained whereby players can increase the dmg modifier. At the moment the dmg modifier is useless, however like polaron weapons speccing into flow caps, maybe dmg modifier could be improved through one of the weapon skills.
I would rather focus on how beams could be improved than gimping other ships or weapons, because it snot the answer. I still stand by what I said. A lot of people don't know how to handle escorts due to inexperience or bad tactical and situational awareness.
As said by a previous poster, putting escorts into the same class as sci and gimping cannons, thereby gimping tacs and escorts, as sci has been gimped, is not the answer.
It still makes me sad that I have a 3 year old sci sitting in my character list that I cant play anymore.
Comments
I think he has a general idea but his knowledge seems to have gaps?
Actually, his answer made the solution for all cruiser and sci vessel pilots. Instead of trying to force a change of mind why not take this approach?
"Capt. Geko, the recent passives coupled with the greater availability of high end shields and some previous NPC buffs has made beams feel a little behind, can you guys look at upping their damage?"
He already said that they were WAD, so instead of trying to prove something is broken because it seems that way to some is not going to work. instead you should be asking for a DPS boos which is what you really want anyway. Of course, buffing beams would negate the passives and gear people have spent cash or ground like crazy to get...this is a painted into a corner situation indeed.
best solution I believe is to boost powercore on larger ships, so that they can make the weak beams perform better
That said as a tac captain mainly using DHCs but no beam array.
This is so telling...
If what you really want to do is be a damage dealer then go ahead and change to escorts.
Better yet, get some alts. That way you won't feel tied to any one ship type if you have alts that fly different ship types.
I think too many people simply don't want to accept that beams are suppossed to do less dps by design. Its a design decision. It simply astonishes me how the community would cling to power drain as "the one thing holding beams back". No, they are held back by design. It would be far more productive to instead ask for a straight out beam DPS buff. Its not like Cryptic isn't inclined to help, why do you think they released a Beam Array that cost no power to use and a 360 weapon that procs extra weapon power?
"Many people flying ships armed with beam arrays feel that these weapons are somewhat lackluster, due to the way that beam arrays seem to drain a lot more power than cannons or turrets. These leads to beam heavy ships not coming anywhere close to their rated damage output because of the power drain issues. Is this something we can have looked at or are beam arrays performing at expected levels?"
The basic question was "the power drain on beams seems too excessive. Is this intended, and if not, can someone look into it?"
What he thought the question was:
His interpretation of the question showed me that one or more of the following is true:
1. He is biased towards cannons.
2. He didn't really listen to the question that was asked.
3. He read too much into the question.
Or maybe he's read the forums and has correctly interpreted what a very loud subset of people are asking for? Sometimes it seems like the very vocal minority want beams to be as powerful as DHCs. They will list a huge number of "lore" and "common sense" reasons why this should be so.
While I can agree that he's read the forums and seen the posts from people whining about beams not being as good as DHCs, but that would reinforce that he had read too much into the question.
There are just as many people who believe that beams shouldn't be doing the same damage as an cannons, as there are those that believe that they should. However, the people that belong to the first group are often lumped into the second group.
I do believe that there is problem with the power drain for beams. I believe this as I have seen my Weapon Power drop to the low 60s, when it should it should be going down to the low 80s. And that is with my Engie overcapping his Weapon Power (to 153) to compensate for the drain and no special beam attacks.
It wouldn't hurt to look at it and see if there is a problem with it.
And for the record, I belong to the group that thinks that beams should do less damage than cannons. My Engie flies a cruiser and does quite well with beams; when I want to use cannons, I have my Tac in an escort.
It doesn't happen all the time, but enough for it to be expected, I would have to say 2 to 3 times a minute.
I have actually been thinking of moving up from EPtW1 to EPtW3 (bringing the overcap to 168) to compensate. With EPtW3, my Weapon Power drops to the low 80s.
They can accept that beams are doing less damage. But they are not willing to accept that beams are doing SO LESS damage. Did you ever try to get an escort or an other ship with beams under pressure? That is a waste of time an energy, because you cant do enough damage to get any usefull result. Ships with beam weapons are only henchmen in this game. But no one realy wants to play only a henchmen.
btw.: i have 18 toons on my account. i tried many things in this game, but after the final conclusion i have to say that escorts are the most valuable ships in that game. This needs to be changed! if you wont buff beam weapons to increase the value of cruisers and sci-ships, so decrease the escort survivability as payment for their damage.
The UI cheats to put it simply. It refreshes it's display at a set time, not in reaction to things going on. That means the listed 'weapon power' you see is what the power was at for that mere portion of a second that your UI refreshed and is pretty much meaningless considering how many things are going on that effect it constantly along with latency.
TLDR: Just because it listed you have 90 power, does not mean that your beam fired with the 90 power damage bonus.
I can buy that the UI doesn't update properly, however the DPS per beam also reflects (what I perceive as) extra drain.
Projected Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 153: 873.49
Actual Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 153: 393.2
Projected Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 168: 908.96
Actual Average DPS per Beam with 6 beams and Weapon Power overcapped to 168: 458.74
While I do not expect the Average DPS per Beam to actually equal the Projected, but it should be closer than what the Actual is showing.
So I don't think this is just an observational error on my part and it does lead me to believe that there is something wrong with the drain mechanic for beams.
It is more than DPS by design. These weapons are utterly obsolete; what is the point in a wide angle attack, when escorts can simply make up that angle with massive turn rate, and then proceed to put out a much more damaging attack? And the old "Cruisers aren't meant to be damage dealers" nugget just doesn't work. We have been over the role of DPS in this game countless times, and know that nothing else matters.
Simply put its not beams or cannons but the abuse of Aux 2 Batt which (when running multiple copies) can allow you to run multiple Boff powers in a short space of time.
Also people need to grow a pair and play the game better/improve their build/fly an escort yadda yadda ya or GTFO.
You cannot have a game where multiple classes are equal. TACS are meant to damage, what do people not understand about that ?
You cannot be an engineer and be in a cruiser an out dps an escort because engineers are not meant to do that nor are sci ships. Sorry people but get over it already, All the negativity and butthurt on the forums really is depressing.
Even if escorts or dhc got nerfed YOU WOULD STILL FIND ESCORTS BEATING THE C**P out of other ships.
Im a Tac, I do damage, its my job in an escort to kill you and I will. Even if you want to tie both hands behind my back I will faceroll the keyboard and still kill you.
Instead of the witch hunt against escorts and DHC go play with multiple copies of aux 2 batt and aux 2 batt doffs and you will see what I mean.
Even if I was a Tac in an escort with all beams I could still out dps any other ship without abusing aux 2 batt.
Reading threads like this with each and every person with their own agenda having no interest in the advancement of the game, just their own personal agenda being fuelled by the butthurt really is very very sad.
Its a shame the energy put into this thread is wasted when it could be better focused elsewhere. Look ouside you own immediate agenda of the " I IZ LEET UBER PWNZER" and appreciate that each ship has a role to play.
If anything should be done then yes by all means give beams less drain and allow them to fire off quicker (it does seem to me the animation in game is not consistent with beam firing ie it is too long especially if you look at battle scense from DS9 beam weapon firing) OR give beams powers like beam rapid fire ?
Either way it doesn't matter, escorts will use beams and still roll people unless people actually get together, and use tactics.
If your in pvp 1 person tractors an escort, sci fires a tricobolt out its rear, leaving the rest to pick off the pieces ?
HOW DAM HARD IS IT FOR YOU ALL TO GRASP THE BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF THIS GAME ? THAT INCLUDES DEVELOPERS LIKE GECKO WHO ARE ALSO IINEPTLY USELESS
sigh ...... enough this really is too depressing to read the idiocy being shown here.
I decided to do a small math test, white beam arrays (cruiser broadside 7 beams not including torpedoes) vs 3 DHC and 3 Turrets (for escort).
Also, all weapons are non buffed or effected by skills and at 100 weapon power.
Results where 7 beams are 1540 dps with no energy drain and 1078 with energy drain
Escort with 3 DHC and 3 Turrets when having DHC start firing first was 1164 dps with no energy drain and 897.6 with drain.
So, I dont see how cannons are that ott or am i missing something?
Abilities, as well as calculation of average DPS over time, not just in one burst.
You may also want to keep an eye on how the power drops for beam arrays, compared to DHC/turret.
I have done some stat finding (I created a spreadsheet to calculate damage and DPS of various weapons and it's fairly accurate, though incomplete) and my results are as follows
Scenario: All weapons Mk X Common. 8 Beam arrays vs 4 DHCs, Power level: 145, Starship weapons skill: 9 + Omega rep, starship energy weapons: 9
Beam arrays (32 shots)
Damage: 17,742.66
DPS: 3,458.53
DHCs (32 shots)
Damage: 29,532.1
DPS: 9,844.04
Again, not 100% accurate but it is within 100 points on any given figure.
Any shots fired at over 125 power are counted as 125 due to how the power works in that regard all shots fired with no buffs
It is depressing to read so much ignorance from players like you. A gm should delete such silly posts. This does not help anyone.
This is 1 of the best posts ever. A little crude yes, but...Thumbs up for speaking his mind and having some ba**s to say what many players are afraid to say!
Forgive the snip, but your post was rather long. And much of what you said is depressingly correct. But a lot of it was also wrong. Many of us aren't here to "make ourselves uber" as you seem to think, but we're instead here trying to figure out why one weapon is so badly gimped. And it is gimped.
Let's take a look at your standard Beam Array. The base DPS of a standard mk X BA is around 200. It has a drain of -10 energy when fired in tandem with other weapons. It also has a 250 degree firing arc. So overall, it's not a terrible weapon. Until you take a look at every other factor. First off, BAs are hardly ever used on their own. Seeing fewer than 4 BAs on a ship just doesn't happen. In fact in many cases, you tend to see six or seven (depending on if the cruiser has the KCB).
So one thinks, oh ok, that's 60 power drain, it's manageable. Yes and no. Even if you constantly cycle an EPtW3, you will hard cap your weapons power at 150, and you will drop to 85 or 90 every time you do a full broadside with 6 beams, 75-80 if you use 7. That's an awfully HUGE energy drain. Compared to their partners in crime, the DHC with their 12 energy drain, but MUCH SHORTER FIRING CYCLE, it just gets obscene. Comparing a standard fully cannonscort to a full BA cruiser:
DHCx4 + Turretx2 + KCB/Another turret ~ 72 power drain.
8 BA ~ 80 power drain.
So it's about equal. Or is it?
Your standard DHC at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 1200-1500 damage (depending on consoles etc). Your standard turret at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 500-800 damage (again depending on consoles etc). Your standard BA at 125 weapons power will hit for ~ 800-1000 damage (again dependent on consoles etc). So all things considered, two BAs vs a DHC + turret are about equal (~1600-2k vs ~ 1700-2300). UNTIL YOU BRING POWER DRAIN INTO THE EQUATION.
For some whacked reason, it was decided that even a TINY power drain would have a severe effect on beam array damage. It's something ludicrous, like for each 10 power, the BAs damage level drops by 20%. So at 100 weapons power, each BA is hitting for ~ 200% damage, at 125 they are hitting for ~ 250% damage. However, drop them by even 20 power below 100 (like what you will see with a standard 6-7 BA broadside, 7 actually dropping it by more like 30), and suddenly you're only hitting for 140-160% damage. Which would be acceptable... except for the fact that there seems to be some kind of bug or something in the system that actually drops it to more like 125-130% damage. Which brings your average BA hit down to around 500 when your weapons power is at 75.
Then we look at DHCs. Same system, but their damage does not appear to be as heavily affected by power levels. A DHC hitting at 100 weapons power will easily deal 200% damage, and at 125 seems to be closer to 270-280%. But drop it by the same amount, and it doesn't lose nearly as much damage as a BA.
The lowest I have ever seen my BAs hit for is 120% damage, even fully overclocked (again, against a target with no skills using a captain with no skills, both ships had no consoles, 6 standard mk 1 WHITE BAs at 2k range, weapons power overclocked maxed at 150 (hit an EPtW3, but allowed for 15 seconds to pass so there was no damage bonus from the BOff ability, also hit an EPS transfer bonus to be sure my weapons power was as high as possible)). My weapons power at the end of that broadside was at 80-85. I then did the same thing with DHCs + turrets, fully overclocked, same conditions, everything the same, and my power level dropped to roughly the same levels. But my DHCs were still hitting for 150% damage.
So DHCs hit a lot harder. DUH. They are supposed to, I have no illusions to otherwise. But really? Hitting THAT much harder? That seems a little off to me. But this just base white junk. Move on to full mk XII purple equipment, and the gap grows ridiculously. A mk XII purple DHC with full buffs on itself and full debuffs on a target will EASILY hit for 12-15k PER SHOT. Do the same with a BA... and you will usually only hit 5-6k per shot max. Firing arcs? Pssssh. Ships that use DHCs are so nimble that firing arcs aren't much of an issue. Range mitigation? That's the ONLY thing BAs have right now that makes them even slightly more useful than DHCs. DHCs from 10k out suffer from a ~60% damage penalty, beams only ~40%. But the DHCs hit so much harder, that seems almost a null point.
So yes, we want better BAs. We don't want them to hit as hard as DHCs (that's just stupid), but don't want them to be as horribly weak as they are now (cuz let's face it, that's just stupid too), or if they are to be so horribly weak, at least let there be a decent reason for it.
If by maneuver you mean put engine speed at 1/4 and then turn? Then yes, they need to maneuver. And that's SUCH a hardship.
-.-
To steal someone's sig: Kittens are cute. Your argument is invalid.
It is because you are both making false assumptions about what over-capping power does, along with the rest of the community.
I will keep it simple. Three beams, 135 power (so 10 over cap) this is how your shots will be. Beams are A, B, C, shot 1, 2, 3, 4.
A1 @ 125
B1 @ 115
C1 @ 105
Now the 10 power jumps back into the system
A2-4 @ 115
B2-4 @ 105
C2-4 @ 95
OR
Possibility not sure
A, B, & C 3-4 @ 95
This is why it does nothing for DHCs. This is why it does little for cannons compared to what it does for beams. And this is why power drain is so much stronger. Power overcapping will never allow two weapons to fire at 125 power.
But how does one test this? Over cap with various energy types and parse the results.
That makes sense, so I'm not too far wrong with my figures, I will do some further testing if I can get the motivation to pick up that spreadsheet and work on it again and make any required adjustments.
Ok, did some number crunching on what you posted. That is more inline with what I am seeing. I used a 7 Beam build for comparison.
With 7 Beams at 125 power no overcapping, I should expect an average DPS per beam to be about 587.
With 7 Beams at 160 power with overcapping, I should expect an average DPS per beam to be about 804. This was used just for comparison.
I was able to run two tests with 7 Beams. One with overcapping, and one without.
Without overcapping and 7 beams I saw an average DPS per beam of 380.
With overcapping and 7 beams I saw an average DPS per beam of 467.
The overall encounter DPS without overcapping was 5886.21
The overall encounter DPS with overcapping was 7721.24
Overcapping or not, the method you posted was more accurate.
There does appear to be some benefit with overcapping regardless.
Further testing will be required. Will take me a few days to do so, as I work the next few days.
It's power drain duty cycles, pure and simple. Dual heavies only drain power 25% of the time so you will get cannons firing with their power drains out of sequence. You may have 4 dual heavy cannons firing "at the same time", but each one spends the majority of its time NOT draining power. Versus beams which drain power 80% of the time and where it is literally impossible to have multiple beams without stacking multiple drains on eachother.
Though if we want to be entirely correct about this: Since I already pointed this issue out to Cryptic and they dismissed it as "working as designed", the problem isn't beams. The problem is Cryptic.
The question being, how to persuade Cryptic that the design isn't good?
That's sadly a function of the game engine and damage scaling. If escorts really had to do damage in passes then DHCs would have to do several times their current DPS to make up for the loss of uptime. That would move the baseline of what a ship would need to able to survive way higher than it is right now... both for PCs and NPCs... which then would push beam and torp/mine damage up as well but all that would do is bum up the extremes. Its a balancing nightmare to even think about it. Having to balance extreme spike vs sustained would become unfeasable, so instead they fudge it. DHC spike isn't as high and DHCs provide more of a constant DPS without having to rely on passes.
Also, all that extra moving around escorts does require effort. In my engi cruiser movement isn't really a concern beyond not stopping and keeping it turning.
Besides, when moving at 1/4 impulse escorts aren't getting much of their vaunted mobility defense are they?
Easy, you don't because you can't. You'd be trying to convince them that a system isn't working as intended, which it is. Instead you need to show Cryptic that defenses have increased across the board on PCs and NPCs and even with the best weapons the current metagame calls for a little more damage than cruisers can do right now. You aren't asking for a huge change, just a small boost. It could as simple as simply giving all cruisers a little extra power to weapons if you wanted to keep to the beam drain argument.
I think this has teh greatest chance of success since Cryptic has already seen it as a possible solution. Why else do you think the very first Rep grinds offer a beam array that costs no weapon power and a 360 weapon that procs EXTRA weapon power?