I keep looking for a beam setup that actually doesn't make me fly away and switch out my loadout mid mission. I haven't found it. People say they have it. I never see it.
I want to find it. Every time I try one it makes me want to cry. Please, beam gods, share your secrets!
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I keep looking for a beam setup that actually doesn't make me fly away and switch out my loadout mid mission. I haven't found it. People say they have it. I never see it.
I want to find it. Every time I try one it makes me want to cry. Please, beam gods, share your secrets!
That is exactly what I have been asking for, yet those who claim to have the right set-up never seem to post it. Go figure.
Well I dont have a setup that breaks 10k consistently, but I am able to get 7-8k pretty regularly with room for more tweaking. From what I have figured out, getting maximum peak damage requires putting everything into a single column. Basically you can have wide damage across multiple types, or you can have narrow damage of a single type (excluding pets), and if you want to get big numbers from a single single type then you need to drop the non-contributing assets. EG, stop mixing beams and torps, go full one or the other, and max your damage into that type. If you want to use weapons, maximize your weapon hard-points that face the target. Pets will give you more damage but if you give up hardpoints to have a carrier you are going to do less beam damage. Its not something that is appealing to me so I am not interested in doing it, but if you notice all of these 10k ships have the same thing, they are all running 100% plasma weapons with plasma consoles and are skilled into that setup, EG all damage is compressed into a single type column.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
I have tried many of them, and many variants of them, never quite got them to click.
I will give it another go, my curiosity is peaked again... but I have a feeling I will end up right back where I stand right now, that any build that uses single beams will be out performed by single cannons/turret by a wide margin. Plasma loadout or no.
I use a beam for SST and BOs, but that's the trick. *A* beam.
Edit: I don't have an eng, so it may well be lack of nadeon inversion. Seems like it wouldn't be up long enough to cripple me as much as it feels like, tho. I don't have it, so I really can't tell you.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Edit: I don't have an eng, so it may well be lack of nadeon inversion.
Nadion Inversion doesn't have a good enough up time to matter much in the grand scheme. It's for special occasions rather than as a bread and butter part of your build.
I find it endlessly frustrating that we can literally have a conversation about the best ways to make beams do the damage they are supposed to be doing, i.e. the damage figures you see before the stacked drains castrates them, and yet people still adamantly believe that there's nothing wrong with beams. Chief among them being Cryptic. It's just-- I mean--- RRRRRRGH!!
Talking about NI is missing the point, you need to be talking about how to keep EPtW running full-time. If it isnt helping you do more damage, then its probably holding you back
I am perfectly willing to concede that I just haven't found the magic build or skillset, if one can be produced. People all the time say that things I witness are impossible and I just have to shake my head. If there is somebody running a super beam build they must feel the same way I do then.
I run parses all the time. The only time ACT isn't running is when I first get a new ship and I want to just enjoy the feel rather then obseess over numbers and then go back to my top performer, or when I first wake up and just don't want to see the flaws in my flying =P
I haven't seen any beam build that myself or somebody else flew that I didn't the whole time in the back of my head say, "You know, single cannons and turrets would have made that even better."
I keep searching. If I find it I will announce it. Till then I say junk the beams, get some cannons and pwn.
Edit: Full time EP2W... Done it.. Do it.. Still more effective with cannons. Thats the point. If beams can do it, cannons do it and do it better.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I've already done the BA vs Single cannon vs DHC tests in another thread, on a cruiser the BAs actually work better.
DHCs are more bursty, but it takes you too long to get around to your target, and your tac Boff skills are too low to really use them well.
Single cannons do nearly the same damage as BAs, I'd call them even just due to potential variance of a match. If you could get 2 lt slots maybe worth using, but if you have threat control ramped up expect to get some pummelling from high yield torps, its far less defensive.
I've only broken 10k in an elite STF a few times with an eng cruiser, but I haven't been using the cruiser much the last couple weeks, my sci character needs dilithium lately.
I was all set to have a dinner date with my log parser and beams of every color and size and test builds all night long... but...
Seems there is a new bug with the Ody and every time I sep it lags out. I have other cruisers but none near as versitile so deep testing becomes meh at best.
Soon(tm)
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
What's stopping a Klingon player from using a battlecruiser like a healer?
Both factions have their relative advantages and disadvantages, and have things that the other does not. I'll admit that KDF is somewhat underdeveloped compared to Starfleet (which I consider to be somewhat bloated with content), but you are still crying foul over every advantage you perceive the Federation to have. In the case of Federation cruisers however, you must realize that cruisers are only capable of doing one thing well. Furthermore, unlike KDF battlecruisers, Federation cruisers do not appear to have been designed with carriers in mind; if you have recently compared Fed's options for carriers to their cruisers, you'll notice that carriers are actually better than the cruisers in practically every respect worth noting.
If you devote more boff ability slots to outgoing healing abilities, that's less slots you have available to boost your own attack abilities. That's what I was thinking of when I said that, anyhow.
For example, you might have to sacrifice an EptW skill to make room for an ES or ET skill to support teammates. That's a reduction in firepower in exchange for healing.
That's also why I said they're more suited for self-healing. . .because that way, they're ensuring they stay in the fight long enough to use their firepower effectively.
As for 'crying foul' over Federation advantages. . .my personal perspective on it is this: I'm fine with each faction having their own strengths and weaknesses. I prefer it that way, it makes the factions different in more ways. However, I do not know if Cryptic follows that same logic (and, from what I've seen, they probably don't), and I also keep seeing Federation players demand KDF exclusives. My thinking is this: If the Federation want battlecruisers, they should simultaneously be pushing to give the KDF a dedicated and effective science ship line. If they want something cool that's KDF, they need to be willing to give up something of theirs that's cool. This hasn't been the case, as the Federation has gotten a few concepts from the KDF without any exchange at all (again, the most prominent example would be the carriers).
As for the Federation cruisers being 'less flexible'. . .I don't really care, ultimately. Most of the folks loudly complaining about that are the ones trying to fly them as something they're not meant to be. They're supposed to be support healers and whatnot. If they're 'less performing' than battlecruisers or carriers, then so be it. The KDF has the advantage in those particular classes, it should stay that way until the Federation is willing to give up a few of its advantages to the KDF (such as the stronger escorts and the science ship line).
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
I was all set to have a dinner date with my log parser and beams of every color and size and test builds all night long... but...
Seems there is a new bug with the Ody and every time I sep it lags out. I have other cruisers but none near as versitile so deep testing becomes meh at best.
Soon(tm)
I used the Dkora, since it can equip DHCs, and has most of the same Boff and stats of the fleet assault cruiser refit. In battle mode it turns a bit better than the fleet excel but not a whole lot.
Rainbow boats don't do that badly really, 10-15% difference in DPS. The negative stigma is that people who use them are just hopeless as players in general.
You misunderstood, I wont be running a rainbow, I will be comprehensively testing and switching out energy types to avoid missing anything relevant.
I already know rainbowing is sub-optimal, I don't need to test that.:P
And to be more specific, as far as energy is concered, I want to see how energy type effects the results, because who knows, maybe the secret is crit interaction with AP, or stacking plasma to the sky, or however unlikely something to do wtih tet procs or or or...
I have my assumptions, but why assume when you can parse?
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Which one are you talking about? Those are just regular postings, I've been on that sub since its begining. The ones I saw that claim to do about 7-8k or so tended to have cannons (including my cannon/turret Excel'), spiral wave weaps' (not easy to equip unless you have a Galor) and such. Give us an exact example of what you are talking about please.
That is my experience, with tacs pulling ahead a bit. I should have rolled tac... but I'm so invested in my sci...
Cannons get you numbers like those. Beams I'm lucky to hit 4.5k, on a good day, with other people helping me stack AP:B. Typically less.
I don't know about DBB, honestly I don't really mess with them much out side of 1 for BO or SST in the proper builds. Single cannons worked so well and my preliminary test with DBB so poor I just said TRIBBLE it IDC.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Which one are you talking about? Those are just regular postings, I've been on that sub since its begining. The ones I saw that claim to do about 7-8k or so tended to have cannons (including my cannon/turret Excel'), spiral wave weaps' (not easy to equip unless you have a Galor) and such. Give us an exact example of what you are talking about please.
You stated that those who claim to have the right set-up never seem to post it. I showed a topic that did. In that post, Heretic called out for those that claim their cruiser builds CAN do insane damage, to post their builds. There are posts in that topic which are not what Heretic asked for, as far as high dps builds for cruisers, there are others that do. Yes I did post my tank build in there and posted the dps I received with it. I am not referencing my own build, as it would be seen as being biased. Unfortunately most of the posts in that topic did not list the dps they received with said build (including your own), so testing would be required before adopting them on a regular basis. To be honest, any build should be tested before settling on it, as individual playstyle can alter the effectiveness of a build.
The new Fleet Weapons are equal in stats to the Spiral Wave Disruptors. Now, these aren't exact numbers, but the Spirals have a damage listed (for me, ingame, unequipped) as 237 and the new Fleet Weapons have a damage listed as 240. Both have the Accx2 and Damagex2 modifiers. I have not switched over to the new Fleet Weapons, as the cost of dilithium for that 3 points of extra damage isn't worth it to me.
Did I have success with my Spirals? Yes I did. But I also posted that I had received similar DPS results using Romulan Plasma Beam Arrays which had the Acc and CrtH modifiers, while using the same build. Granted, while using the Romulan Beam Arrays, I had switched my Tactical Consoles from Disruptor based to Plasma based; so I did modify the build somewhat. The point is that the weapons could be swapped out to another type (and with some other mods) and see similar results by another player.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
I cannot speak for Whamhammer1, but we seem to be having the same ponderance.
I test builds for fun. I run something, parse, change something, run something, parse, change something, et cetera ad infinitum.
For every beam build I try, I have then been able to replace the beams with single cannons and turrets and out perform it by a significant margin.
I'm not saying that there are no viable beam builds. Runs are completed with beam boats every day. I'm saying that in my experience, if you give me a beam build, I can give you the corresponding cannon build that will significantly out perform it.
I'm also not foolish enough to believe that I have all the answers, which is why I keep saying, "Where are the good beam builds?" I'm not being snarky, I want the build! I really do!
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
If you ever want to parse my eng beam boat in a STF then PM me, I'm generally not happy with 8k results. One thing I notice is it does take some time to make the mental switch from beams to cannons and back, its a different play style.
That could well be my issue. Once this ody bug is taken care of I'll actually dedicate some time to flying as a beam boat, instead of just trying to parse them. Actually walk a mile in the shoes.
Thanks for the idea.
Edit: Things are still very preliminary, I'm not running any group content until this saucer sep trolling is taken care of, but I have some early results that surprised me.
While my single target DPS is pretty abysmal, my multi target DPS is pretty good. Peaking up at 7.5k, and this is without refinements, just the "toss some gear, pick a build, kill some junk mobs"
It could be simply that I've been attempting to use beams in the wrong applications all this time. I seriously hoped that this was the case. Again, these results are preliminary at best, but I must say I have gone from skepticism to optimism.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
If you devote more boff ability slots to outgoing healing abilities, that's less slots you have available to boost your own attack abilities. That's what I was thinking of when I said that, anyhow.
For example, you might have to sacrifice an EptW skill to make room for an ES or ET skill to support teammates. That's a reduction in firepower in exchange for healing.
That's also why I said they're more suited for self-healing. . .because that way, they're ensuring they stay in the fight long enough to use their firepower effectively.
As for 'crying foul' over Federation advantages. . .my personal perspective on it is this: I'm fine with each faction having their own strengths and weaknesses. I prefer it that way, it makes the factions different in more ways. However, I do not know if Cryptic follows that same logic (and, from what I've seen, they probably don't), and I also keep seeing Federation players demand KDF exclusives. My thinking is this: If the Federation want battlecruisers, they should simultaneously be pushing to give the KDF a dedicated and effective science ship line. If they want something cool that's KDF, they need to be willing to give up something of theirs that's cool. This hasn't been the case, as the Federation has gotten a few concepts from the KDF without any exchange at all (again, the most prominent example would be the carriers).
As for the Federation cruisers being 'less flexible'. . .I don't really care, ultimately. Most of the folks loudly complaining about that are the ones trying to fly them as something they're not meant to be. They're supposed to be support healers and whatnot. If they're 'less performing' than battlecruisers or carriers, then so be it. The KDF has the advantage in those particular classes, it should stay that way until the Federation is willing to give up a few of its advantages to the KDF (such as the stronger escorts and the science ship line).
I don't want battlecruisers and could care less about have DHC on cruisers. There are players out there who want cruisers to do as much damage as battlecruisers can, but I'm not one of them.
You're still crying foul over perceived advantages anyhow. It's not an entirely invalid point but it is tiresome. The issue does not have anything to do about giving advantages to one faction over the other, but rather that Cryptic has spent less time and resources on developing Klingon content. Ideally, they should develop said content in roughly equal parallel to Federation content or release Klingon content with equal frequency, but have neglected to do so. This is one reason why the parity between KDF Raptors and SF Escorts is so very much apparent.
The same problem can be seen with Federation cruisers, to some extent, but is rather more worrisome (to me) in that they are being displaced by other vessels in their own faction.
There should be a beam Boff ability that rapid fires on 1 target. FAW scatters your attack, BO only fires from 1 array and drains your power so your next volley does as much damage as throwing popcorn at your screen. If there was say a Beam spread on target boff then all your beams would cycle(similar to a FAW but maybe more volleys) but on a single target.
That's called Fire At Will. Like it or leave it, but I'm not inclined to make beam abilities work like cannon ones.
No, it isn't. The only time Fire At Will is a single-target damage boost is when there are 1 or 2 targets within firing arcs. Use FAW in a pitched battle and you might as well rename your ship the USS Rave Party.
Allowing all beams to fire Overload in a single salvo gives beams a tremendous single target striking power (like Rapid Fire), without actually being mechanically identical to Rapid Fire (higher front loaded damage, at the cost of weapon energy being drained after)
No, it isn't. The only time Fire At Will is a single-target damage boost is when there are 1 or 2 targets within firing arcs. Use FAW in a pitched battle and you might as well rename your ship the USS Rave Party.
That gave me a great idea for a name for a ship with a rainbow beams build. :P
No, it isn't. The only time Fire At Will is a single-target damage boost is when there are 1 or 2 targets within firing arcs. Use FAW in a pitched battle and you might as well rename your ship the USS Rave Party.
Allowing all beams to fire Overload in a single salvo gives beams a tremendous single target striking power (like Rapid Fire), without actually being mechanically identical to Rapid Fire (higher front loaded damage, at the cost of weapon energy being drained after)
Fits the definition, though. I don't like the idea of making beams abilities work like cannons.
As for allowing all beams to fire in overload mode... now there might be an idea in that. It would certainly give purpose to carrying more than one beam. It is rather perverse that Beam Overload does a lot more for escorts carrying one beam bank.
I said I was going to do some testing in regards to overcapping weapon power and power drain.
I used Common Mk X Phaser Beam Arrays and four Common Mk X Phaser Relay Consoles. Each test was at Starbase 234. I only parsed when I was able to meet the critieria of being at 2km of Starbase 234 and have 3 minutes on the countdown timer. With the exception of 125, the weapon power listed is when overcapped. I used Tac Team I and no other tactical powers. This was also done without Nadion Inversion. When I retested with Nadion Inversion, I saw a 20% increase in the average damage per beam.
You will notice that the damage per beam is not linear in scaling with weapon power, sorry but I cannot control when and how often I was critting.
Also when I was conducting these tests, the weapon power did not drop below 40 (at 125 weapon power).
When equipped and in system space, the Mk X Phaser Beam Array showed (in tooltip) 1,000.4 damage and a DPS of 800.3.
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 160 413.78
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 155 - Average Damage Per Beam: 384.35
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 150 - Average Damage Per Beam: 369.52
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 145 - Average Damage Per Beam: 372.58
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 140 - Average Damage Per Beam: 367.56
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 135 - Average Damage Per Beam: 365.04
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 130 - Average Damage Per Beam: 331.13
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 125 - Average Damage Per Beam: 343.99
Average Damage per Beam from all 6 Beam Tests: 368.49
Expected Average Damage per Beam (from Drain Mechanic Post): 555.25
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 160 - Average Damage Per Beam: 367.27
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 155 - Average Damage Per Beam: 345.3
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 150 - Average Damage Per Beam: 370.26
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 145 - Average Damage Per Beam: 337.54
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 140 - Average Damage Per Beam: 362.0
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 135 - Average Damage Per Beam: 320.11
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 130 - Average Damage Per Beam: 312.36
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 125 - Average Damage Per Beam: 302.5
Average Damage per Beam from all 7 Beam Tests: 339.68
Expected Average Damage per Beam (from Drain Mechanic Post): 457.21
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 160 - Average Damage Per Beam: 324.95
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 155 - Average Damage Per Beam: 318.1
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 150 - Average Damage Per Beam: 320.02
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 145 - Average Damage Per Beam: 322.93
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 140 - Average Damage Per Beam: 295.89
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 135 - Average Damage Per Beam: 296.17
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 130 - Average Damage Per Beam: 283.38
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 125 - Average Damage Per Beam: 257.09
Average Damage per Beam from all 8 Beam Tests: 302.32
Expected Average Damage per Beam (from Drain Mechanic Post): 360.42
In an earlier post the weapon drain mechanics for beams was explained. Using that method, the average damage per beam was still below the expected results.
While I cannot say with 100% certainty that overcapping weapons power helps fight the power drain (only the Devs who know the actual method the power drain is calculated know for sure); it does appear to help the average damage per beam somewhat. Going by my results, it seems that overcapping to 140-145 appears to be the limit.
Take from this what you will.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
You know, this is probably one of the few posts you have made that I actually mostly agree with. Beams are weak. I won't dispute that. They have a rather large firing arc though, so that makes them useful in some situations.
However I will disagree with this part:
I can outheal the majority of an alpha strike from a bug in my Odyssey. Anything I can't outheal straight up I can usually pick up with HoTs. You are correct, cannon and BA damage have a massive disparity, almost to the point of stupidity, but you vastly underestimate or devalue the ability of cruisers to heal not only themselves but others.
Word of advice:
If you're having trouble surviving against an escort, use the following ability combo: EPtS3, TT1, HE2, TSS1, Aux2SIF3, as appropriate. If you keep cycling those abilities and time them properly, the escort will never pop you. Also you have MW3 as your "oh ****" button, and combined with a RSP2, you can EASILY outlast any escort, at least long enough that it will get bored/one of your teammates will come and kill it.
and with a regent, a BO2 and HTY3 can really ruin an escort's day if you can nail him with a tractor. tractor mines and the grappler will slow him long enough that BO2 pops his shield and HYT3 his hull. catch him with tractors and a broadside also does wonders on his shields
The problem is actually with the cannons not with the beams.
Cannons have an absurd damage and rate of fire and this is what makes the beams look so decrepit.
Cannons need to be changed to:
Single cannon
Single Heavy Cannon*
Dual Cannon
*Rather than it being dual heavy cannon.
By removing the very high damage dual heavy cannon and 'trimming it' to a single heavy cannon the cannon ships in the game fall in line with the beam weaponry.
How? Simple. The cannon's primary advantage is that it has a rapid refire & fire rate plus the boff abilities buff ALL cannons not just one (unlike beams) when firing on a single target.
The dual heavy cannon receives an insane damage boost and rate of fire bonus from boff abilities and this is why most people dont bother with single cannons and rarely use dual cannons. The dual heavy is the one that has the massive damage output.
A single heavy cannon would have the same refire rate the dual heavy has now but only have minimally better damage output than the dual cannons .The catch: the heavy cannon has twice the secondary effect the non-heavy cannons have. Not chance to proc but the effect itself.
or you could just make the escort the glass cannon it should be. the speed defense bonus is insanely lopsided. if you look at DS9 as the example, Defiant has firepower going for it but the science and engineering capabilities are far far less than a cruisers (manpower has a LOT to do with it) to be more realistic, escorts should have ens only powers for eng and sci powers
I found that equipping 2 Mk XI Purple flow regulators when overcapping could boost beam damage by a fair margin...
(Starting power 123, 6 beams arrays, 5 cycles under each set of conditions)
Base (no EPS consoles, no buffs) 1668
EPtW1 (No consoles) 1824
EPtW1 (1 console) 1943
EPtW1 (2 consoles) 2185
EPS (No consoles) 1979
EPS (1 console) 2233
EPS (2 consoles) 2419
EPS+EPtW1 (No consoles) 2190
EPS+EPtW (1 console) 2458
EPS+EPtW (2 consoles) 2892
I haven't tested flow regulators, as they are reputed to only help with transfering from one power setting to another and with power recovery from Beam Overload. At some point I will look into it.
The numbers you listed. Where are they from (e.g. tooltip, floating numbers)? I am not being snarky. When I ran my tests with ACT, I used the average damage, as it is per beam array. From my tests the minimum hit was 1 and the maximum hit was 1652. I find that the average damage to be a truer representation of performance.
"I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
Comments
I want to find it. Every time I try one it makes me want to cry. Please, beam gods, share your secrets!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
That is exactly what I have been asking for, yet those who claim to have the right set-up never seem to post it. Go figure.
Actually some of us have posted them.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=583401
I will give it another go, my curiosity is peaked again... but I have a feeling I will end up right back where I stand right now, that any build that uses single beams will be out performed by single cannons/turret by a wide margin. Plasma loadout or no.
I use a beam for SST and BOs, but that's the trick. *A* beam.
Edit: I don't have an eng, so it may well be lack of nadeon inversion. Seems like it wouldn't be up long enough to cripple me as much as it feels like, tho. I don't have it, so I really can't tell you.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Nadion Inversion doesn't have a good enough up time to matter much in the grand scheme. It's for special occasions rather than as a bread and butter part of your build.
I find it endlessly frustrating that we can literally have a conversation about the best ways to make beams do the damage they are supposed to be doing, i.e. the damage figures you see before the stacked drains castrates them, and yet people still adamantly believe that there's nothing wrong with beams. Chief among them being Cryptic. It's just-- I mean--- RRRRRRGH!!
I run parses all the time. The only time ACT isn't running is when I first get a new ship and I want to just enjoy the feel rather then obseess over numbers and then go back to my top performer, or when I first wake up and just don't want to see the flaws in my flying =P
I haven't seen any beam build that myself or somebody else flew that I didn't the whole time in the back of my head say, "You know, single cannons and turrets would have made that even better."
I keep searching. If I find it I will announce it. Till then I say junk the beams, get some cannons and pwn.
Edit: Full time EP2W... Done it.. Do it.. Still more effective with cannons. Thats the point. If beams can do it, cannons do it and do it better.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
DHCs are more bursty, but it takes you too long to get around to your target, and your tac Boff skills are too low to really use them well.
Single cannons do nearly the same damage as BAs, I'd call them even just due to potential variance of a match. If you could get 2 lt slots maybe worth using, but if you have threat control ramped up expect to get some pummelling from high yield torps, its far less defensive.
I've only broken 10k in an elite STF a few times with an eng cruiser, but I haven't been using the cruiser much the last couple weeks, my sci character needs dilithium lately.
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I was all set to have a dinner date with my log parser and beams of every color and size and test builds all night long... but...
Seems there is a new bug with the Ody and every time I sep it lags out. I have other cruisers but none near as versitile so deep testing becomes meh at best.
Soon(tm)
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
If you devote more boff ability slots to outgoing healing abilities, that's less slots you have available to boost your own attack abilities. That's what I was thinking of when I said that, anyhow.
For example, you might have to sacrifice an EptW skill to make room for an ES or ET skill to support teammates. That's a reduction in firepower in exchange for healing.
That's also why I said they're more suited for self-healing. . .because that way, they're ensuring they stay in the fight long enough to use their firepower effectively.
As for 'crying foul' over Federation advantages. . .my personal perspective on it is this: I'm fine with each faction having their own strengths and weaknesses. I prefer it that way, it makes the factions different in more ways. However, I do not know if Cryptic follows that same logic (and, from what I've seen, they probably don't), and I also keep seeing Federation players demand KDF exclusives. My thinking is this: If the Federation want battlecruisers, they should simultaneously be pushing to give the KDF a dedicated and effective science ship line. If they want something cool that's KDF, they need to be willing to give up something of theirs that's cool. This hasn't been the case, as the Federation has gotten a few concepts from the KDF without any exchange at all (again, the most prominent example would be the carriers).
As for the Federation cruisers being 'less flexible'. . .I don't really care, ultimately. Most of the folks loudly complaining about that are the ones trying to fly them as something they're not meant to be. They're supposed to be support healers and whatnot. If they're 'less performing' than battlecruisers or carriers, then so be it. The KDF has the advantage in those particular classes, it should stay that way until the Federation is willing to give up a few of its advantages to the KDF (such as the stronger escorts and the science ship line).
Hey, I was going to post that. It's my thread after all XP
I used the Dkora, since it can equip DHCs, and has most of the same Boff and stats of the fleet assault cruiser refit. In battle mode it turns a bit better than the fleet excel but not a whole lot.
Rainbow boats don't do that badly really, 10-15% difference in DPS. The negative stigma is that people who use them are just hopeless as players in general.
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I already know rainbowing is sub-optimal, I don't need to test that.:P
And to be more specific, as far as energy is concered, I want to see how energy type effects the results, because who knows, maybe the secret is crit interaction with AP, or stacking plasma to the sky, or however unlikely something to do wtih tet procs or or or...
I have my assumptions, but why assume when you can parse?
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Which one are you talking about? Those are just regular postings, I've been on that sub since its begining. The ones I saw that claim to do about 7-8k or so tended to have cannons (including my cannon/turret Excel'), spiral wave weaps' (not easy to equip unless you have a Galor) and such. Give us an exact example of what you are talking about please.
Cannons get you numbers like those. Beams I'm lucky to hit 4.5k, on a good day, with other people helping me stack AP:B. Typically less.
I don't know about DBB, honestly I don't really mess with them much out side of 1 for BO or SST in the proper builds. Single cannons worked so well and my preliminary test with DBB so poor I just said TRIBBLE it IDC.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
You stated that those who claim to have the right set-up never seem to post it. I showed a topic that did. In that post, Heretic called out for those that claim their cruiser builds CAN do insane damage, to post their builds. There are posts in that topic which are not what Heretic asked for, as far as high dps builds for cruisers, there are others that do. Yes I did post my tank build in there and posted the dps I received with it. I am not referencing my own build, as it would be seen as being biased. Unfortunately most of the posts in that topic did not list the dps they received with said build (including your own), so testing would be required before adopting them on a regular basis. To be honest, any build should be tested before settling on it, as individual playstyle can alter the effectiveness of a build.
The new Fleet Weapons are equal in stats to the Spiral Wave Disruptors. Now, these aren't exact numbers, but the Spirals have a damage listed (for me, ingame, unequipped) as 237 and the new Fleet Weapons have a damage listed as 240. Both have the Accx2 and Damagex2 modifiers. I have not switched over to the new Fleet Weapons, as the cost of dilithium for that 3 points of extra damage isn't worth it to me.
Did I have success with my Spirals? Yes I did. But I also posted that I had received similar DPS results using Romulan Plasma Beam Arrays which had the Acc and CrtH modifiers, while using the same build. Granted, while using the Romulan Beam Arrays, I had switched my Tactical Consoles from Disruptor based to Plasma based; so I did modify the build somewhat. The point is that the weapons could be swapped out to another type (and with some other mods) and see similar results by another player.
I test builds for fun. I run something, parse, change something, run something, parse, change something, et cetera ad infinitum.
For every beam build I try, I have then been able to replace the beams with single cannons and turrets and out perform it by a significant margin.
I'm not saying that there are no viable beam builds. Runs are completed with beam boats every day. I'm saying that in my experience, if you give me a beam build, I can give you the corresponding cannon build that will significantly out perform it.
I'm also not foolish enough to believe that I have all the answers, which is why I keep saying, "Where are the good beam builds?" I'm not being snarky, I want the build! I really do!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
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Thanks for the idea.
Edit: Things are still very preliminary, I'm not running any group content until this saucer sep trolling is taken care of, but I have some early results that surprised me.
While my single target DPS is pretty abysmal, my multi target DPS is pretty good. Peaking up at 7.5k, and this is without refinements, just the "toss some gear, pick a build, kill some junk mobs"
It could be simply that I've been attempting to use beams in the wrong applications all this time. I seriously hoped that this was the case. Again, these results are preliminary at best, but I must say I have gone from skepticism to optimism.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I don't want battlecruisers and could care less about have DHC on cruisers. There are players out there who want cruisers to do as much damage as battlecruisers can, but I'm not one of them.
You're still crying foul over perceived advantages anyhow. It's not an entirely invalid point but it is tiresome. The issue does not have anything to do about giving advantages to one faction over the other, but rather that Cryptic has spent less time and resources on developing Klingon content. Ideally, they should develop said content in roughly equal parallel to Federation content or release Klingon content with equal frequency, but have neglected to do so. This is one reason why the parity between KDF Raptors and SF Escorts is so very much apparent.
The same problem can be seen with Federation cruisers, to some extent, but is rather more worrisome (to me) in that they are being displaced by other vessels in their own faction.
That's called Fire At Will. Like it or leave it, but I'm not inclined to make beam abilities work like cannon ones.
No, it isn't. The only time Fire At Will is a single-target damage boost is when there are 1 or 2 targets within firing arcs. Use FAW in a pitched battle and you might as well rename your ship the USS Rave Party.
Allowing all beams to fire Overload in a single salvo gives beams a tremendous single target striking power (like Rapid Fire), without actually being mechanically identical to Rapid Fire (higher front loaded damage, at the cost of weapon energy being drained after)
That gave me a great idea for a name for a ship with a rainbow beams build. :P
Fits the definition, though. I don't like the idea of making beams abilities work like cannons.
As for allowing all beams to fire in overload mode... now there might be an idea in that. It would certainly give purpose to carrying more than one beam. It is rather perverse that Beam Overload does a lot more for escorts carrying one beam bank.
I used Common Mk X Phaser Beam Arrays and four Common Mk X Phaser Relay Consoles. Each test was at Starbase 234. I only parsed when I was able to meet the critieria of being at 2km of Starbase 234 and have 3 minutes on the countdown timer. With the exception of 125, the weapon power listed is when overcapped. I used Tac Team I and no other tactical powers. This was also done without Nadion Inversion. When I retested with Nadion Inversion, I saw a 20% increase in the average damage per beam.
You will notice that the damage per beam is not linear in scaling with weapon power, sorry but I cannot control when and how often I was critting.
Also when I was conducting these tests, the weapon power did not drop below 40 (at 125 weapon power).
When equipped and in system space, the Mk X Phaser Beam Array showed (in tooltip) 1,000.4 damage and a DPS of 800.3.
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 160 413.78
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 155 - Average Damage Per Beam: 384.35
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 150 - Average Damage Per Beam: 369.52
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 145 - Average Damage Per Beam: 372.58
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 140 - Average Damage Per Beam: 367.56
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 135 - Average Damage Per Beam: 365.04
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 130 - Average Damage Per Beam: 331.13
6 Beams - Weapon Power: 125 - Average Damage Per Beam: 343.99
Average Damage per Beam from all 6 Beam Tests: 368.49
Expected Average Damage per Beam (from Drain Mechanic Post): 555.25
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 160 - Average Damage Per Beam: 367.27
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 155 - Average Damage Per Beam: 345.3
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 150 - Average Damage Per Beam: 370.26
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 145 - Average Damage Per Beam: 337.54
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 140 - Average Damage Per Beam: 362.0
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 135 - Average Damage Per Beam: 320.11
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 130 - Average Damage Per Beam: 312.36
7 Beams - Weapon Power: 125 - Average Damage Per Beam: 302.5
Average Damage per Beam from all 7 Beam Tests: 339.68
Expected Average Damage per Beam (from Drain Mechanic Post): 457.21
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 160 - Average Damage Per Beam: 324.95
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 155 - Average Damage Per Beam: 318.1
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 150 - Average Damage Per Beam: 320.02
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 145 - Average Damage Per Beam: 322.93
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 140 - Average Damage Per Beam: 295.89
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 135 - Average Damage Per Beam: 296.17
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 130 - Average Damage Per Beam: 283.38
8 Beams - Weapon Power: 125 - Average Damage Per Beam: 257.09
Average Damage per Beam from all 8 Beam Tests: 302.32
Expected Average Damage per Beam (from Drain Mechanic Post): 360.42
In an earlier post the weapon drain mechanics for beams was explained. Using that method, the average damage per beam was still below the expected results.
While I cannot say with 100% certainty that overcapping weapons power helps fight the power drain (only the Devs who know the actual method the power drain is calculated know for sure); it does appear to help the average damage per beam somewhat. Going by my results, it seems that overcapping to 140-145 appears to be the limit.
Take from this what you will.
(Starting power 123, 6 beams arrays, 5 cycles under each set of conditions)
Base (no EPS consoles, no buffs) 1668
EPtW1 (No consoles) 1824
EPtW1 (1 console) 1943
EPtW1 (2 consoles) 2185
EPS (No consoles) 1979
EPS (1 console) 2233
EPS (2 consoles) 2419
EPS+EPtW1 (No consoles) 2190
EPS+EPtW (1 console) 2458
EPS+EPtW (2 consoles) 2892
and with a regent, a BO2 and HTY3 can really ruin an escort's day if you can nail him with a tractor. tractor mines and the grappler will slow him long enough that BO2 pops his shield and HYT3 his hull. catch him with tractors and a broadside also does wonders on his shields
or you could just make the escort the glass cannon it should be. the speed defense bonus is insanely lopsided. if you look at DS9 as the example, Defiant has firepower going for it but the science and engineering capabilities are far far less than a cruisers (manpower has a LOT to do with it) to be more realistic, escorts should have ens only powers for eng and sci powers
I haven't tested flow regulators, as they are reputed to only help with transfering from one power setting to another and with power recovery from Beam Overload. At some point I will look into it.
The numbers you listed. Where are they from (e.g. tooltip, floating numbers)? I am not being snarky. When I ran my tests with ACT, I used the average damage, as it is per beam array. From my tests the minimum hit was 1 and the maximum hit was 1652. I find that the average damage to be a truer representation of performance.