Increase in availability of KDF cheese.
Increase in hybrid cheese.
Increase in Fed cheese.
Increase in broken cheese.
Overall increases in cheese.
Increased dissatisfaction with FvF PvP is a sign of increased dissatisfaction with PvP in general, no?
Along the lines of why some would suggest that KvK is worse...the increase in hybrid chease, the increase in Fed cheese, the increase in broken cheese, and the additional availability of KDF cheese not yet available to Feds make the KvK PvP worse than the FvF PvP...there's more cheese.
Consider the Dominion lockbox - if it adds Plasmonic Leech or Aceton Assimilators for the Feds...will there not be an increased dissatisfaction with FvF?
As for things like the Feds that complain about cloaking, I've always suggested that it's easy enough for them to get a KDF toon with a BoP - they should do that and try flying it without cloaking. Then they can come back and say whether they feel the same way about it or not...
As for premades, well - when somebody queues up for some casual PvP fun by joining the queues and they get slaughtered by a premade - it's not cheese, but it sure as Hell isn't any fun. Given the existence of the OPvP channel, the forums, etc, etc, etc - there are plenty of opportunities for premades to be able to find premades to fight each other if they're interested in challenging matches. If they're just looking to soften their skills while inflating their egos...well, they can keep pugstomping I suppose.
No doubt there are going to be folks out there that their fragile egos simply cannot accept that they lost for any other reason that cheese or some technical glitch, etc, etc, etc. I have an ego like that, kind of... my fragile ego simply cannot accept that I won for any other reason than I must unknowingly be using something that's cheese, broken, or that the person that lost experienced some technical glitch.
I go into a fight expecting to lose. I set expectations for myself pretty low - which usually means that when I lose, there's not this huge letdown - there's not that sense of disappointment or frustration, etc, etc, etc. Thing is, there is cheese and there is broken stuff - so there's still frustration involved - there's still a desire not to queue again. Yep, even with having gone into a match with the twisted mentality of expecting to lose...one can still have that effit feeling in regard to STO PvP because of cheese.
It's casual PvP. It's like peewee soccer. It's meaningless fun. You can still have fun in losing. Nobody's fighting for territory - it's not a case that you lose and the other sides taking over your planet, either selling your women into prostitution or paving over your ancestral farm to build a Wal-Mart. It's just casual PvP... good ol' pewpew fun. All the nonsense cheese and broken TRIBBLE can ruin that...
...so yeah, I can easily see a reason for the increased dissatisfaction with FvF PvP.
...and yeah, I can see where the crossfaction console in the Dominion lockbox is only going to make that worse.
So it rolls back to being the KDFs fault again. Well aint that special.
F*** sto, Im done. You feds can keep your fed-only club.
Its not worth fighting over if we KDF are always going to be the scapegoat.
it it was just fed vs fed pvp woud get really borin real quick , we need to get feds vs kdf arena poppin all the time , its end game **** and the only fun i really have in this 3 year old game
So it rolls back to being the KDFs fault again. Well aint that special.
Fvck sto, Im done. You feds can keep your fed-only club.
Its not worth fighting over if we KDF are always going to be the scapegoat.
Do you see my sig? Four toons listed. First two listed are KDF. Heck, the 5th unlisted toon - the Foundry guy that I dork around with "Ambassador V'Rus" is a KDF guy as well. I've always had this delusion about being able to create some great KDF content since KDF content is missing. I suck at using the Foundry though (I did much better with CoX's Mission Architect - the Foundry though, man I suck at using that) - so no awesome KDF content from me. Even bought additional slots to do that content, but yeah - I suck at using the Foundry.
So please don't call me a member of the Fed-only club. In what you quoted, I even offered my suggestion for what to say to Feds complaining about cloak. C'mon...
In the Kamarag threads - I'm trying to get more Sci for the KDF since Sci is missing. Is that a Fed thing or a KDF thing?
I'm not blind to what's going on in the game though. I'm not going to pretend that there's not an edge on the cheese that favors the KDF. I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and not say that KvK PvP is less fun than FvF PvP because of the cheese you can face in a KvK match vs. what you can face in a FvF match.
It's not a case of faulting the KDF explicitly for it in the least, either. It's a case of faulting Cryptic. KvK is as bad as it is because it is not only the KDF cheese, but it's also the crossfaction Fed cheese, it's also the hybrid cheese, and it's the broken cheese. FvF has gotten worse because of the combination of all that cheese - and - it's going to get worse with the addition of the cheese form the next lockbox. Most folks are expecting it to be Leech or Assimilators for Feds...with lolNadeon for KDF. A console, where it could be either, and you're going to see it used vs. a console you're unlikely to see that often. So yeah, the FvF will get worse.
Cryptic's done a craptic job with the KDF. Generally worse ships, generally ships you have to buy, and generally ships they've tried to make appealing with some garbage cheese. That's on Cryptic... asking the KDF not to use all the garbage is not far off from asking a BoP not to use their cloaks - it's just that bad otherwise, generally speaking.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Roach, no one is blaming KDF. Ok, beside PUGnewbs. It is clearly Cryptic fault with all the cheese.
The problem is when you have to choose between mountains of cheese in FvK and some cheese in FvF you choose some cheese - so FvF. It is hardly hiding from KDF. It hiding from all that broken cheese and spam Cryptic is throwing at us. If Aceton or Leach finds it way into FvF - those queue will die quickly too. People do not want to fight against cheese. They want casual pew pew and some fun.
Situation where 30 seconds after the fight starts there is more spam in the space then there is micrometeorites in entire Solar system? It is not fun. Its broken and GPUs are slaping their owner for playing such game.
I already set a rule for myself: not fighting with or against carriers. If I see a carrier on either side I warp out. It limits the number of matches I play on but... it is the only way to avoid cheese and still pop some Klink from time to time.
...
I'm not blind to what's going on in the game though. I'm not going to pretend that there's not an edge on the cheese that favors the KDF.
...
In the past year, every Fed ship type has now gained an option for Hangars spamming more pets. Fed has by far better Sci and Escort options. Every Fed ship type has an option for DHCs now. Feds have a much larger variety of Boff layout options than they did a year ago.
Even the Rep system and the Embassy console helps the Feds by giving them passive repairs to defend Alpha strikes.
Exactly what is the KDF only cheese that comes close to what the Feds are capable of pumping out now?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
In the past year, every Fed ship type has now gained an option for Hangars spamming more pets. Fed has by far better Sci and Escort options. Every Fed ship type has an option for DHCs now. Feds have a much larger variety of Boff layout options than they did a year ago.
Both Fed and KDF can run Bugs, Recluses, Weavers, Chels, Temp Ships. No, the KDF do not have Vestas...
Exactly what is the KDF only cheese that comes close to what the Feds are capable of pumping out now?
Feds don't have ASDs, AA, nor Leech. KDF can now run Leech and MACO. That tends to be the stickler, eh? KDF will complain about ADRs. They really complain about ADRs. Do the Feds in FvF complain about ADRs like that? Nope. Feds tend to complain about ASDs, AA, and Leech. Sure, there's going to be the Feds that complain about cloaking - but even other Feds laugh at them...c'mon.
But how about this one as well, in all seriousness as an example. AMS. What? Both Feds and KDF can get AMS. Sure...
For a Fed: Exploration Cruiser Refit (1500 Zen or 127,500 Dil at the current 85 D/Z rate)
For a KDF: Ooooh, it's up to 240k EC now. Was running 100-140k EC for the longest time. I paid less than 140k for AMS for my guys.
What's the most common Z->EC item? Keys? 125 Zen buys you 1.36m EC. So a Fed buying the Exploration Cruiser Refit to get AMS is currently spending around 16.32m EC to get it. The KDF...it's up to 240k EC now.
16.32m vs. 240k... hrmm, you'd need to buy it on 68 KDF toons for it to be equal.
But that's a bad example. That's not the only crossfaction console. Theta?
Scourge Destroyer for KDF...1500 Zen/127500 Dil/16.32m EC (for comparison)
For a Fed? Ooooh, down to 730k EC now. I paid around a mil for mine...meh.
16.32m vs. 730k EC... hrmm, you'd need to buy it on 22 Fed toons for it to be equal.
68 KDF toons vs. 22 Fed toons. One's cheaper...hrmmm.
That's not fair. It should be Iso vs. AMS (who at Cryptic thought these were equivalent probably doesn't work there anymore)... but yep, both come from 1500 Zen ships. But would you say AMS and Iso are equivalent?
PDS/Jump?
Okay, Grav and Burst though... yeah, I'd say the KDF got the shortend on that crossfaction cheese platter Cryptic offered everybody...
Some folks say to shut up the Feds by giving them more KDF stuff. WTF? Seriously? So the people that do not queue for FvK because of that stuff...they want that stuff in FvF? All sorts of expletive no...
There was a time when it was just the ol' FvF, FvK, and KvK.
They did the initial universal console thing for lower tier stuff. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They removed that limit. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They added crossfaction universals. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They're going to be adding more crossfaction universals...
...going to make it better or worse?
Cryptic could have attempted balancing between the Feds and KDF by addressing the ships. They didn't.
This might be off (wish I could find the archived post I did about this early last year), but it's a "best effort" at the moment. Back when I did the post, the KDF had ~10 free ships and ~22 C-Store/Z-Store ships. The Feds had ~15 free ships and ~20 C-Store/Z-Store ships. The KDF were painfully barren for Sci. You could run Sci BOFFs in a BoP - no Sensor Analysis nor Subsystem Targeting. You could get Subsystem but no Analysis in a Vo'quv. Or you could buy a Varanus. Feds had DSSV, RSV - could buy the D'Kyr, Nebula, or Intrepid. That's just Sci - there were various holes here and there.
So yeah, not really much of a reason for many folks to play KDF. There were some nifty consoles here and there...but they were either lower tier or on ships you wouldn't want to fly. Universal Consoles to Cryptic's Bank Account's Rescue! Don't buy the ship for the ship - you're never going to fly it (even on alts, you'll sneeze and be at 50 before you're likely to get any use out of the lower tier ships) - buy it for the console!
But hey, the Feds could do the same thing. But generally speaking, you've even said it yourself - the Feds already had the better ships. They didn't have that deep in the gut, down in the bones feeling that something was wrong the KDF did. I mean, do you think they did?
Yes, now it's come a long way. For those present during the 2nd Anniversary, they got their free Ody/Bort. Feds up four Mirror ships and KDF picked up two. Both got two Temporal ships. Each got the three variants of the Ody/Bort. Each got the Vet Heavy Destroyer. Feds though, they also picked up the Armitage, Regent, Steamrunner, Atrox, and Vesta(s). KDF picked up...er...KDF picked up...er... well, er, um. Okay, er - in addition to the Bug they also added the Galor, D'Kora, Recluse, Weaver, and Chel for both. Okay, okay - they also added the Tuffli. So er, the KDF also picked up...er...yeah, um, well, uh. Okay, how about the Fleet ships? 22 for the Feds. 17 for KDF. I didn't count the Ody/Bort for that, already been acknowledged. They're adding the Ambassador and Kamarag - one for each! There's also going to be the Dominion lockbox with whatever ships are added there, right? Lockbox and Lobi ships? Will there also be Mirror Escorts for Feds and a Mirror BoP for KDF? Will that be the same 2:1 ratio as the others? Meh... and yep, there's the Kumari for the Feds as well. I'm crossing my fingers but not holding my breath that the K'vort comes out for the KDF when the Kumari comes out for the Feds...but yeah, that's crossing fingers but not holding my breath.
That's a chunk of text, a wall of text there, considering I didn't even mention the advantage that Feds have playing Barbie & Ken in space with all the kitbashing options Fed ships have compared to KDF ships.
Advantage...perhaps that's the word where some of this is getting caught up on. For the most part, it's just a case of saying more. The KDF have more garbage that I don't want to play against than the Feds do. It's not that it gives an unbeatable advantage or anything of the sort to them. It's just more garbage that I don't want to play against.
My KDF will queue FvK or hang out in Ker'rat. My Feds will queue FvF. I just don't want to deal with that additional garbage on top of the heaps of nonfaction and Fed garbage as well. If there were Fed missions in Ker'rat, I might spend more time there. Sometimes I'll even go there to help folks with their kill 10 after I've done my die 25/kill 10 on my KDF. There's little reason to go there as a Fed (money's so easy from so many other sources without having to deal with the potential hassle).
I used to do FvF, FvK, KvK, and hang out in Ker'rat...back before the console proliferation. I'm here to have fun - doesn't matter if it's win or lose, I can still have fun losing. I just don't want to deal with all the garbage...
...I have to figure the Dominion box is probably going to kill PvP for me. If not the Dom box, then the box after it. There's just too much garbage.
That was kind of depressing, hrmmm... so how about this ray of hope?
Players.
What some of the folks are doing out there - boot camp, OPvP matches, league stuff, etc, etc, etc where folks are discussing (albeit heatedly at times) what can be used...
Even the Rep system and the Embassy console helps the Feds by giving them passive repairs to defend Alpha strikes.
The Romulan Tac BOFFs are good for both KDF and FED, but ships with cloaks are the only ones that can the biggest advantage from all of the romulan boffs.
They almost look specifically designed to give the biggest benefit to BoPs.
The Romulan Tac BOFFs are good for both KDF and FED, but ships with cloaks are the only ones that can the biggest advantage from all of the romulan boffs.
They almost look specifically designed to give the biggest benefit to BoPs.
Tbh, I haven't looked @ the Boffs, mind linking their specs?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The Romulan Tac BOFFs are good for both KDF and FED, but ships with cloaks are the only ones that can the biggest advantage from all of the romulan boffs.
They almost look specifically designed to give the biggest benefit to BoPs.
To be fair, it makes a lot of sense that they would though.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
The Romulan Bridge Officers from the embassy with the Covert Operative space trait grant 2.5%/3.8% chance to crit (which is awesome by the way) AND a 10%/15% reduction in the cooldown of CLOAKING abilities.
The crit+ stack. But also...
This ability is actually effecting ALL space skills the same way the transporter doff bug did.
And...
EDIT: The QA team is investigating. Thanks for the report! (This has also been fixed and should make its way in with the next patch) - BranFlakes
From what I saw in other threads, folks are 5-6 days out on getting the T3...
Both Fed and KDF can run Bugs, Recluses, Weavers, Chels, Temp Ships. No, the KDF do not have Vestas...
Just the Feds? Really? My KDF guys can take the same stuff. If your KDF toons can't - you might want to fill out a bug report.
Feds don't have ASDs, AA, nor Leech. KDF can now run Leech and MACO. That tends to be the stickler, eh? KDF will complain about ADRs. They really complain about ADRs. Do the Feds in FvF complain about ADRs like that? Nope. Feds tend to complain about ASDs, AA, and Leech. Sure, there's going to be the Feds that complain about cloaking - but even other Feds laugh at them...c'mon.
But how about this one as well, in all seriousness as an example. AMS. What? Both Feds and KDF can get AMS. Sure...
For a Fed: Exploration Cruiser Refit (1500 Zen or 127,500 Dil at the current 85 D/Z rate)
For a KDF: Ooooh, it's up to 240k EC now. Was running 100-140k EC for the longest time. I paid less than 140k for AMS for my guys.
What's the most common Z->EC item? Keys? 125 Zen buys you 1.36m EC. So a Fed buying the Exploration Cruiser Refit to get AMS is currently spending around 16.32m EC to get it. The KDF...it's up to 240k EC now.
16.32m vs. 240k... hrmm, you'd need to buy it on 68 KDF toons for it to be equal.
But that's a bad example. That's not the only crossfaction console. Theta?
Scourge Destroyer for KDF...1500 Zen/127500 Dil/16.32m EC (for comparison)
For a Fed? Ooooh, down to 730k EC now. I paid around a mil for mine...meh.
16.32m vs. 730k EC... hrmm, you'd need to buy it on 22 Fed toons for it to be equal.
68 KDF toons vs. 22 Fed toons. One's cheaper...hrmmm.
That's not fair. It should be Iso vs. AMS (who at Cryptic thought these were equivalent probably doesn't work there anymore)... but yep, both come from 1500 Zen ships. But would you say AMS and Iso are equivalent?
PDS/Jump?
Okay, Grav and Burst though... yeah, I'd say the KDF got the shortend on that crossfaction cheese platter Cryptic offered everybody...
Some folks say to shut up the Feds by giving them more KDF stuff. WTF? Seriously? So the people that do not queue for FvK because of that stuff...they want that stuff in FvF? All sorts of expletive no...
There was a time when it was just the ol' FvF, FvK, and KvK.
They did the initial universal console thing for lower tier stuff. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They removed that limit. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They added crossfaction universals. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They're going to be adding more crossfaction universals...
...going to make it better or worse?
Cryptic could have attempted balancing between the Feds and KDF by addressing the ships. They didn't.
This might be off (wish I could find the archived post I did about this early last year), but it's a "best effort" at the moment. Back when I did the post, the KDF had ~10 free ships and ~22 C-Store/Z-Store ships. The Feds had ~15 free ships and ~20 C-Store/Z-Store ships. The KDF were painfully barren for Sci. You could run Sci BOFFs in a BoP - no Sensor Analysis nor Subsystem Targeting. You could get Subsystem but no Analysis in a Vo'quv. Or you could buy a Varanus. Feds had DSSV, RSV - could buy the D'Kyr, Nebula, or Intrepid. That's just Sci - there were various holes here and there.
So yeah, not really much of a reason for many folks to play KDF. There were some nifty consoles here and there...but they were either lower tier or on ships you wouldn't want to fly. Universal Consoles to Cryptic's Bank Account's Rescue! Don't buy the ship for the ship - you're never going to fly it (even on alts, you'll sneeze and be at 50 before you're likely to get any use out of the lower tier ships) - buy it for the console!
But hey, the Feds could do the same thing. But generally speaking, you've even said it yourself - the Feds already had the better ships. They didn't have that deep in the gut, down in the bones feeling that something was wrong the KDF did. I mean, do you think they did?
Yes, now it's come a long way. For those present during the 2nd Anniversary, they got their free Ody/Bort. Feds up four Mirror ships and KDF picked up two. Both got two Temporal ships. Each got the three variants of the Ody/Bort. Each got the Vet Heavy Destroyer. Feds though, they also picked up the Armitage, Regent, Steamrunner, Atrox, and Vesta(s). KDF picked up...er...KDF picked up...er... well, er, um. Okay, er - in addition to the Bug they also added the Galor, D'Kora, Recluse, Weaver, and Chel for both. Okay, okay - they also added the Tuffli. So er, the KDF also picked up...er...yeah, um, well, uh. Okay, how about the Fleet ships? 22 for the Feds. 17 for KDF. I didn't count the Ody/Bort for that, already been acknowledged. They're adding the Ambassador and Kamarag - one for each! There's also going to be the Dominion lockbox with whatever ships are added there, right? Lockbox and Lobi ships? Will there also be Mirror Escorts for Feds and a Mirror BoP for KDF? Will that be the same 2:1 ratio as the others? Meh... and yep, there's the Kumari for the Feds as well. I'm crossing my fingers but not holding my breath that the K'vort comes out for the KDF when the Kumari comes out for the Feds...but yeah, that's crossing fingers but not holding my breath.
That's a chunk of text, a wall of text there, considering I didn't even mention the advantage that Feds have playing Barbie & Ken in space with all the kitbashing options Fed ships have compared to KDF ships.
Advantage...perhaps that's the word where some of this is getting caught up on. For the most part, it's just a case of saying more. The KDF have more garbage that I don't want to play against than the Feds do. It's not that it gives an unbeatable advantage or anything of the sort to them. It's just more garbage that I don't want to play against.
My KDF will queue FvK or hang out in Ker'rat. My Feds will queue FvF. I just don't want to deal with that additional garbage on top of the heaps of nonfaction and Fed garbage as well. If there were Fed missions in Ker'rat, I might spend more time there. Sometimes I'll even go there to help folks with their kill 10 after I've done my die 25/kill 10 on my KDF. There's little reason to go there as a Fed (money's so easy from so many other sources without having to deal with the potential hassle).
I used to do FvF, FvK, KvK, and hang out in Ker'rat...back before the console proliferation. I'm here to have fun - doesn't matter if it's win or lose, I can still have fun losing. I just don't want to deal with all the garbage...
...I have to figure the Dominion box is probably going to kill PvP for me. If not the Dom box, then the box after it. There's just too much garbage.
KDF is designed for hit and run. Fed is designed to CC/Debug and out grind enemy. So, no passive repairs don't impact both factions equally. For the same reason cross repairing a Raider vs an Fed Escort aren't the same even when using the same repair abilities. The target's stats matter.
Feds have by the numbers better Escorts and Sci ships. Most lotto ships fit the Fed playstyle better than the KDF playstyle. Again, every Fed ship type has an option to deploy pets. Every Fed ship type can now fit cannons (in some cases also deploy pets).
I tried to read through the wall of text for how KDF cheese is now worse than Fed cheese and quite frankly I didn't see it.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The Romulan Bridge Officers from the embassy with the Covert Operative space trait grant 2.5%/3.8% chance to crit (which is awesome by the way) AND a 10%/15% reduction in the cooldown of CLOAKING abilities.
The crit+ stack. But also...
This ability is actually effecting ALL space skills the same way the transporter doff bug did.
And...
EDIT: The QA team is investigating. Thanks for the report! (This has also been fixed and should make its way in with the next patch) - BranFlakes
From what I saw in other threads, folks are 5-6 days out on getting the T3...
Yeah all the CritH procs has gotten absurd.
Not sure how practical the cloak reduction is, usually it's better to run via evasive than cloak for defensive reasons. Cloaking/decloaking quickly for damage boost would be improved, but usually it's not a good idea either.
Lastly, I never agreed w/the stance that abusing known bugs isn't exploiting.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The next pairing has been confirmed as not being Leech/Grappler...
Assimilator/Nadeon? Kind of curious, now - with the confirmed what it isn't. And really? Grappler? Everybody knows they just changed Nadeon...
How long until that next box again? 4 days left on the Temporal. "Patch" Thursday. Will they jump right in on the Dominion? Will it be the following Thursday? How much space will exist between the launch of the Dombox and the 3rd Anni?
edit: BTW, that's not to suggest in the least that AA would be a good thing. I think it would be bad for FvF and FvK.
The moderators have erased two threads in the last hour...you mentioned the players will save the PvP but not Cryptic. Maybe they could get offended and delete you...:eek:
The way I look at it is this:
Ker'rat and the queues are likely to remain the bring whatever.
Players (with Cryptic support but w/o any admission of their being anything wrong) will run their leagues, private matches, schedule things in OPvP or on the forums, with certain rules, etc, etc, etc.
This actually plays out in Cryptic's favor (and a reason for them to support it). They can continue to sell more and more "stuff" that folks will use in PvE or in situations where they know they're as likely to face as much as they bring.
There are PvP folks that won't use certain things in PvP - but they'll use it in PvE.
Understanding that Cryptic needs to make money - it's easy to understand how they're going to add things that easily make PvP more frustrating. Have to step back to see that. It's there though. No denying it. If Cryptic doesn't make money - there's no STO.
So yep, Players (w/Cryptic's "support" - and - I probably should have said that) can fix and keep PvP alive. Cryptic can't... not because they're blubbering idiots - no, nothing like that - but the simple financial aspect of it - they need to offer stuff that sells. It's against their best interest in a twisted sense, against STO's best interest in a twisted sense...to do otherwise.
So the PvP community comes together - Cryptic offers the support they can... and PvP can thrive. I mean, it's what everybody's trying to do now - no?
"Feds don't have ASDs, AA, nor Leech. KDF can now run Leech and MACO."
Do you understand, P2wsucks?:P
Fleet Shields are better than MACO, Leech is OP b/c of gain not the drain, AA is very easy to avoid. Pets on KDF are much more limited in terms of ship types than feds are. Those ships don't fit the hit and run playstyle well either.
Compare that to phaser, TB and Cront pet spam by potentially EVERY Fed ship type. In some cases they can also fit DHCs for ship classes never designed to fit them. Again, the Fed Escort and Sci options are better by the numbers than KDF options.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Look, if Virusdancer can't persuade you, I really don't have any chance!
Persuade? I was just trying to explain why some folks don't have fun against the KDF - including KDF not wanting to fight other KDF...and why those folks might have less of an issue with FvF (and why some KDF hope that some Feds will take the chance on FvK).
Wait wait wait. Another cross faction console is inbound? I wonder what I do first: uninstall or join OPvP to find some "no cheese" matches to play. And then I will think what is worse.
Why is it, whenever a fed sees an "overpowered" BoP they run to the forums to rant/rage/cry, instead of actually getting in a BoP too see how they ACTUALLY fly?
Comments
So it rolls back to being the KDFs fault again. Well aint that special.
F*** sto, Im done. You feds can keep your fed-only club.
Its not worth fighting over if we KDF are always going to be the scapegoat.
R.I.P
it it was just fed vs fed pvp woud get really borin real quick , we need to get feds vs kdf arena poppin all the time , its end game **** and the only fun i really have in this 3 year old game
Do you see my sig? Four toons listed. First two listed are KDF. Heck, the 5th unlisted toon - the Foundry guy that I dork around with "Ambassador V'Rus" is a KDF guy as well. I've always had this delusion about being able to create some great KDF content since KDF content is missing. I suck at using the Foundry though (I did much better with CoX's Mission Architect - the Foundry though, man I suck at using that) - so no awesome KDF content from me. Even bought additional slots to do that content, but yeah - I suck at using the Foundry.
So please don't call me a member of the Fed-only club. In what you quoted, I even offered my suggestion for what to say to Feds complaining about cloak. C'mon...
In the Kamarag threads - I'm trying to get more Sci for the KDF since Sci is missing. Is that a Fed thing or a KDF thing?
I'm not blind to what's going on in the game though. I'm not going to pretend that there's not an edge on the cheese that favors the KDF. I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and not say that KvK PvP is less fun than FvF PvP because of the cheese you can face in a KvK match vs. what you can face in a FvF match.
It's not a case of faulting the KDF explicitly for it in the least, either. It's a case of faulting Cryptic. KvK is as bad as it is because it is not only the KDF cheese, but it's also the crossfaction Fed cheese, it's also the hybrid cheese, and it's the broken cheese. FvF has gotten worse because of the combination of all that cheese - and - it's going to get worse with the addition of the cheese form the next lockbox. Most folks are expecting it to be Leech or Assimilators for Feds...with lolNadeon for KDF. A console, where it could be either, and you're going to see it used vs. a console you're unlikely to see that often. So yeah, the FvF will get worse.
Cryptic's done a craptic job with the KDF. Generally worse ships, generally ships you have to buy, and generally ships they've tried to make appealing with some garbage cheese. That's on Cryptic... asking the KDF not to use all the garbage is not far off from asking a BoP not to use their cloaks - it's just that bad otherwise, generally speaking.
Is this goodbye then, Roach?
The problem is when you have to choose between mountains of cheese in FvK and some cheese in FvF you choose some cheese - so FvF. It is hardly hiding from KDF. It hiding from all that broken cheese and spam Cryptic is throwing at us. If Aceton or Leach finds it way into FvF - those queue will die quickly too. People do not want to fight against cheese. They want casual pew pew and some fun.
Situation where 30 seconds after the fight starts there is more spam in the space then there is micrometeorites in entire Solar system? It is not fun. Its broken and GPUs are slaping their owner for playing such game.
I already set a rule for myself: not fighting with or against carriers. If I see a carrier on either side I warp out. It limits the number of matches I play on but... it is the only way to avoid cheese and still pop some Klink from time to time.
In the past year, every Fed ship type has now gained an option for Hangars spamming more pets. Fed has by far better Sci and Escort options. Every Fed ship type has an option for DHCs now. Feds have a much larger variety of Boff layout options than they did a year ago.
Even the Rep system and the Embassy console helps the Feds by giving them passive repairs to defend Alpha strikes.
Exactly what is the KDF only cheese that comes close to what the Feds are capable of pumping out now?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Both Fed and KDF can run Bugs, Recluses, Weavers, Chels, Temp Ships. No, the KDF do not have Vestas...
Just the Feds? Really? My KDF guys can take the same stuff. If your KDF toons can't - you might want to fill out a bug report.
Feds don't have ASDs, AA, nor Leech. KDF can now run Leech and MACO. That tends to be the stickler, eh? KDF will complain about ADRs. They really complain about ADRs. Do the Feds in FvF complain about ADRs like that? Nope. Feds tend to complain about ASDs, AA, and Leech. Sure, there's going to be the Feds that complain about cloaking - but even other Feds laugh at them...c'mon.
But how about this one as well, in all seriousness as an example. AMS. What? Both Feds and KDF can get AMS. Sure...
For a Fed: Exploration Cruiser Refit (1500 Zen or 127,500 Dil at the current 85 D/Z rate)
For a KDF: Ooooh, it's up to 240k EC now. Was running 100-140k EC for the longest time. I paid less than 140k for AMS for my guys.
What's the most common Z->EC item? Keys? 125 Zen buys you 1.36m EC. So a Fed buying the Exploration Cruiser Refit to get AMS is currently spending around 16.32m EC to get it. The KDF...it's up to 240k EC now.
16.32m vs. 240k... hrmm, you'd need to buy it on 68 KDF toons for it to be equal.
But that's a bad example. That's not the only crossfaction console. Theta?
Scourge Destroyer for KDF...1500 Zen/127500 Dil/16.32m EC (for comparison)
For a Fed? Ooooh, down to 730k EC now. I paid around a mil for mine...meh.
16.32m vs. 730k EC... hrmm, you'd need to buy it on 22 Fed toons for it to be equal.
68 KDF toons vs. 22 Fed toons. One's cheaper...hrmmm.
That's not fair. It should be Iso vs. AMS (who at Cryptic thought these were equivalent probably doesn't work there anymore)... but yep, both come from 1500 Zen ships. But would you say AMS and Iso are equivalent?
PDS/Jump?
Okay, Grav and Burst though... yeah, I'd say the KDF got the shortend on that crossfaction cheese platter Cryptic offered everybody...
Some folks say to shut up the Feds by giving them more KDF stuff. WTF? Seriously? So the people that do not queue for FvK because of that stuff...they want that stuff in FvF? All sorts of expletive no...
There was a time when it was just the ol' FvF, FvK, and KvK.
They did the initial universal console thing for lower tier stuff. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They removed that limit. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They added crossfaction universals. It made FvF, FvK, and KvK worse.
They're going to be adding more crossfaction universals...
...going to make it better or worse?
Cryptic could have attempted balancing between the Feds and KDF by addressing the ships. They didn't.
This might be off (wish I could find the archived post I did about this early last year), but it's a "best effort" at the moment. Back when I did the post, the KDF had ~10 free ships and ~22 C-Store/Z-Store ships. The Feds had ~15 free ships and ~20 C-Store/Z-Store ships. The KDF were painfully barren for Sci. You could run Sci BOFFs in a BoP - no Sensor Analysis nor Subsystem Targeting. You could get Subsystem but no Analysis in a Vo'quv. Or you could buy a Varanus. Feds had DSSV, RSV - could buy the D'Kyr, Nebula, or Intrepid. That's just Sci - there were various holes here and there.
So yeah, not really much of a reason for many folks to play KDF. There were some nifty consoles here and there...but they were either lower tier or on ships you wouldn't want to fly. Universal Consoles to Cryptic's Bank Account's Rescue! Don't buy the ship for the ship - you're never going to fly it (even on alts, you'll sneeze and be at 50 before you're likely to get any use out of the lower tier ships) - buy it for the console!
But hey, the Feds could do the same thing. But generally speaking, you've even said it yourself - the Feds already had the better ships. They didn't have that deep in the gut, down in the bones feeling that something was wrong the KDF did. I mean, do you think they did?
Yes, now it's come a long way. For those present during the 2nd Anniversary, they got their free Ody/Bort. Feds up four Mirror ships and KDF picked up two. Both got two Temporal ships. Each got the three variants of the Ody/Bort. Each got the Vet Heavy Destroyer. Feds though, they also picked up the Armitage, Regent, Steamrunner, Atrox, and Vesta(s). KDF picked up...er...KDF picked up...er... well, er, um. Okay, er - in addition to the Bug they also added the Galor, D'Kora, Recluse, Weaver, and Chel for both. Okay, okay - they also added the Tuffli. So er, the KDF also picked up...er...yeah, um, well, uh. Okay, how about the Fleet ships? 22 for the Feds. 17 for KDF. I didn't count the Ody/Bort for that, already been acknowledged. They're adding the Ambassador and Kamarag - one for each! There's also going to be the Dominion lockbox with whatever ships are added there, right? Lockbox and Lobi ships? Will there also be Mirror Escorts for Feds and a Mirror BoP for KDF? Will that be the same 2:1 ratio as the others? Meh... and yep, there's the Kumari for the Feds as well. I'm crossing my fingers but not holding my breath that the K'vort comes out for the KDF when the Kumari comes out for the Feds...but yeah, that's crossing fingers but not holding my breath.
That's a chunk of text, a wall of text there, considering I didn't even mention the advantage that Feds have playing Barbie & Ken in space with all the kitbashing options Fed ships have compared to KDF ships.
Advantage...perhaps that's the word where some of this is getting caught up on. For the most part, it's just a case of saying more. The KDF have more garbage that I don't want to play against than the Feds do. It's not that it gives an unbeatable advantage or anything of the sort to them. It's just more garbage that I don't want to play against.
My KDF will queue FvK or hang out in Ker'rat. My Feds will queue FvF. I just don't want to deal with that additional garbage on top of the heaps of nonfaction and Fed garbage as well. If there were Fed missions in Ker'rat, I might spend more time there. Sometimes I'll even go there to help folks with their kill 10 after I've done my die 25/kill 10 on my KDF. There's little reason to go there as a Fed (money's so easy from so many other sources without having to deal with the potential hassle).
I used to do FvF, FvK, KvK, and hang out in Ker'rat...back before the console proliferation. I'm here to have fun - doesn't matter if it's win or lose, I can still have fun losing. I just don't want to deal with all the garbage...
...I have to figure the Dominion box is probably going to kill PvP for me. If not the Dom box, then the box after it. There's just too much garbage.
Players.
What some of the folks are doing out there - boot camp, OPvP matches, league stuff, etc, etc, etc where folks are discussing (albeit heatedly at times) what can be used...
...that might save PvP.
The Players.
Not Cryptic.
The Romulan Tac BOFFs are good for both KDF and FED, but ships with cloaks are the only ones that can the biggest advantage from all of the romulan boffs.
They almost look specifically designed to give the biggest benefit to BoPs.
Tbh, I haven't looked @ the Boffs, mind linking their specs?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
To be fair, it makes a lot of sense that they would though.
The Romulan Bridge Officers from the embassy with the Covert Operative space trait grant 2.5%/3.8% chance to crit (which is awesome by the way) AND a 10%/15% reduction in the cooldown of CLOAKING abilities.
The crit+ stack. But also...
This ability is actually effecting ALL space skills the same way the transporter doff bug did.
And...
EDIT: The QA team is investigating. Thanks for the report! (This has also been fixed and should make its way in with the next patch) - BranFlakes
From what I saw in other threads, folks are 5-6 days out on getting the T3...
KDF is designed for hit and run. Fed is designed to CC/Debug and out grind enemy. So, no passive repairs don't impact both factions equally. For the same reason cross repairing a Raider vs an Fed Escort aren't the same even when using the same repair abilities. The target's stats matter.
Feds have by the numbers better Escorts and Sci ships. Most lotto ships fit the Fed playstyle better than the KDF playstyle. Again, every Fed ship type has an option to deploy pets. Every Fed ship type can now fit cannons (in some cases also deploy pets).
I tried to read through the wall of text for how KDF cheese is now worse than Fed cheese and quite frankly I didn't see it.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Yeah all the CritH procs has gotten absurd.
Not sure how practical the cloak reduction is, usually it's better to run via evasive than cloak for defensive reasons. Cloaking/decloaking quickly for damage boost would be improved, but usually it's not a good idea either.
Lastly, I never agreed w/the stance that abusing known bugs isn't exploiting.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The next pairing has been confirmed as not being Leech/Grappler...
Assimilator/Nadeon? Kind of curious, now - with the confirmed what it isn't. And really? Grappler? Everybody knows they just changed Nadeon...
How long until that next box again? 4 days left on the Temporal. "Patch" Thursday. Will they jump right in on the Dominion? Will it be the following Thursday? How much space will exist between the launch of the Dombox and the 3rd Anni?
edit: BTW, that's not to suggest in the least that AA would be a good thing. I think it would be bad for FvF and FvK.
Er...for what?
The way I look at it is this:
Ker'rat and the queues are likely to remain the bring whatever.
Players (with Cryptic support but w/o any admission of their being anything wrong) will run their leagues, private matches, schedule things in OPvP or on the forums, with certain rules, etc, etc, etc.
This actually plays out in Cryptic's favor (and a reason for them to support it). They can continue to sell more and more "stuff" that folks will use in PvE or in situations where they know they're as likely to face as much as they bring.
There are PvP folks that won't use certain things in PvP - but they'll use it in PvE.
Understanding that Cryptic needs to make money - it's easy to understand how they're going to add things that easily make PvP more frustrating. Have to step back to see that. It's there though. No denying it. If Cryptic doesn't make money - there's no STO.
So yep, Players (w/Cryptic's "support" - and - I probably should have said that) can fix and keep PvP alive. Cryptic can't... not because they're blubbering idiots - no, nothing like that - but the simple financial aspect of it - they need to offer stuff that sells. It's against their best interest in a twisted sense, against STO's best interest in a twisted sense...to do otherwise.
So the PvP community comes together - Cryptic offers the support they can... and PvP can thrive. I mean, it's what everybody's trying to do now - no?
i bet the leech will be the lockbox crossover for the feds.
Do you even Science Bro?
Fleet Shields are better than MACO, Leech is OP b/c of gain not the drain, AA is very easy to avoid. Pets on KDF are much more limited in terms of ship types than feds are. Those ships don't fit the hit and run playstyle well either.
Compare that to phaser, TB and Cront pet spam by potentially EVERY Fed ship type. In some cases they can also fit DHCs for ship classes never designed to fit them. Again, the Fed Escort and Sci options are better by the numbers than KDF options.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Linked it shortly ago, but Bran said in a thread he closed that it wasn't going to be Leech...
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=520371
Persuade? I was just trying to explain why some folks don't have fun against the KDF - including KDF not wanting to fight other KDF...and why those folks might have less of an issue with FvF (and why some KDF hope that some Feds will take the chance on FvK).