A fleet starbase is the only way to access a significant portion of the game's content.
Exactly what content is it you're being excluded from?
A few items that have equivalents you can earn doing other stuff, and? What you can get by having a T3 or higher SB is so far from being a significant portion of content that you are clearly doing nothing but trolling by making a post like that.
Well from what I hear from people on these forums fleets of 25 are in bad shape or are disappearing - so there is a big disconnect fro their "plan" to reality
Putting any stock in what you read here is a pretty silly thing to do. You can not know how fleets of ~25 people are actually doing based on what you read on these message boards.
It looks like this has devolved into an epeen contest for elitist "large fleet" members to insure they have something to make them feel special against all the other players.
This is a game design issue, not a method to shore up your withered ego.
It looks like this has devolved into an epeen contest for elitist "large fleet" members to insure they have something to make them feel special against all the other players..
Could say quite as easily that it's an attempt by small fleets to get their ego inflated artificially and have everything handed to them on a sliver platter because they're not willing to put the effort required into getting what they want.
Assuming that people are trying to keep you down or be better then you, is a symptom of paranoia, not a debate method.
A fleet starbase is the only way to access a significant portion of the game's content. As a paying customer I have a problem with being excluded from any content, especially based on some arbitrary elitist BS about "deserving" it. A game should not feel like a chore. If you want me playing long term, give me more to do, not more reasons to repeat the same stuff.
That's part of the beauty of MMO players. What one player classifies as a "chore", is something that gives a game "meaning" to another player.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't need another 100 meaningless "kill x of y" quests in my games to give me pointless make-work to do. I'd rather have content/missions/whatever that fed into a larger, long term system, preferably one in which other players are also involved.
It always amuses me when people take the "if you don't like X then do Y" argument. "If you don't like that you can't progress in the game with a small close knit fleet then join a big one and become a number!" It's never that simple, not that anybody perpetrating that argument in this tread will have their opinion changed by that fact.
Simply put some of us like playing the game in small fleets because they tend to be friendlier and make for a better experience. At the same time we want to actually be able to progress in the fleet system without feeling that we're being punished by it. By that I mean not having to take weeks just to fill out one project with every active member on daily grinding out necessary requirements. The games meant to be fun and challenging, not a chore. Nothing is keeping Crytpic from working on the system so it scales to a fleets size, or even revamping the system so it is really small and medium fleet oriented, rather than what they say is small and medium fleet oriented. The fleet number they say they've built the system for isn't working. I've seen fleets bigger than mine break apart because they can't progress. That's a problem. The fleet system is supposed to bring a fleet together, not make the game feel like a chore and make it seem like you have to sell your soul to a large fleet to achieve anything. It certainly wasn't intended to make people take an elitist "go big or die its your own fault" position. So it needs to actually fulfill its goal, and with the way the projects are set up right now, it's not doing that.
My fleet was small to begin with. A dozen plus members, only a handful active. There's about three of us making contributions these days but I lead it by far.
The problem isn't just participation. it's that it's discouraging after awhile.
First, there's the fleet mark problem. When we had the 'Investigate Officer Report' easy missions working, we could farm fleet marks easier and with multiple alts. Now that you have to use Cryptic approved maps for the same thing, such mark grinding takes a lot longer. And trust me... it can take awhile when you're looking at 600 fleet marks a mission.
That's a problem that cryptic needs to address.
And then there's dilithium. Normally that wouldn't be so bad. Normally. Problem is that dilithium is too expensive these days. I find my fleetmates are not using their dilithium for projects but instead are using it to buy Zen. Frankly, I can't blame them. Zen is really cheap to buy with dilithium these days.
Though cryptic exasperates the problem by maintaining extremely high dilithium costs for fleet projects, duty officer exchanges and equipment, this is mostly a player problem because WE SET THE VALUE! I honestly thought that when we were allowed to cash reputation points for dil that this problem would be solved... nope! Dilithium prices still hover in the low 100's. Free market arguments aside, cryptic should know, as a game company, that players will exploit the hell out of each other every chance they get (which means they will gouge on dil prices), so it is up to them to minimize the damage on that front.
And then there was the personnel officer glitch. At least that was fixed (thank you!).
So in short... everything's too damn expensive and grinding for the required materials burns my fellow fleeties out!
We tried recruiting... we could only get limited numbers. Why? Because... they all want to be in a bigger fleet with more stuff in their starbase! Big flipping surprise!
But not everything's been bad. I'm happy that only common doffs are needed for projects so those are easy enough to get, and the amount needed has been reduced to a... I wouldn't say a reasonable level but I'd say a more manageable level. Also, selling commons makes for a good source of EC. Bravo!
Tell you what... go find 2 friends and the 3 of you progress a Starbase to Tier V and come back and tell how much fun it was for you.
I'm part of what I'd say is a typical fleet, ~25 people, and we just hit T3.
I joined that fleet in part because it seemed like a decent group of people, and in part because I believed they'd be able to get a SB up and running.
I have no desire to join a fleet of 3 people, SB or no. I want to be part of a larger fleet because that means there's more people to play with. But I also don't really care how long it takes us to hit T4 because what's offered at T4 simply isn't that big of a deal.
Nothing is keeping Crytpic from working on the system so it scales to a fleets size
Yes there is. It's the fact that such a system would be extremely exploitable. No matter what you do, it will allow large fleets to form a smaller one, burn though projects and be done way faster then is intended.
Right, so people who choose to be in smaller fleets should be punished for their choice. Got it.
If that's what you want to call it, then go ahead. I don't really care if you feel you're being punished or not. If having a persecution complex helps, then who am I to stop you?
I feel we're still not on the same page. I will say you're right about the tone though, and I apologize for the slightly snarky tone in my last post. We may not agree, but you're very eloquent with your disagreement!
There've been plenty of ideas fielded to counter potential exploits of a scaling fleet advancement system. Some of the first I recall seeing were the inclusion of penalties or timers for the more obvious forms of exploit: That is, a big fleet dumping its player load to try and lessen the project cost. Projects could, hypothetically, adjust only after a certain amount of time has passed, be it a week, two weeks, a month, etc. That or sudden fleet exodus could react in a fashion of extending the time it takes for a fleet's projects to recalculate themselves. Cryptic doesn't seem to like dynamic calculations for these things (just judging by the way they handled STF loot), so an internal scale of tiers like what they did for the Season 7 STF loot conversion would probably be the way to go: Fleets with 25-40 players get the "Tier 3 Medium-High Fleet Advancement Project" load, for instance.
That way, shenanigans like constantly dumping or bloating fleet rosters would time-gate exploiter-fleets, while making Fleet Advancement on a whole more flexible for smaller fleets and giving them a goal they have some possibility of achieving. The larger fleets have a more uniquely-scaled amount of work they must do, which adjusts if they try to dump players. The smaller fleets have theirs as well, which adjusts if they add players. Both are time-gated if they try shenanigans like Roster-fixing.
There has been no effort that we've seen to make Fleet Advancement more dynamic than the flat rate it currently is because of the fear of exploiting, which has been the primary reason we've been given for why Fleet Advancement was given its 'happy medium'. Cryptic hasn't said the same as you in that they feel small fleets should live with their disadvantage; the closest they've come is stating what we all know, that larger fleets will be more advantaged than smaller fleets. Yet they (Stahl) took the added effort to assure the players that small fleets could do it. Even provided some numbers that a fleet of five could conceivably do, at the time, to assure people that even a fleet of five could advance.
It didn't quite turn out that way, which is another trait of MMOs--devs making claims that do not work out in actuality. Personally I don't even know if Cryptic's FA system is even elegant enough to handle this sort of thing. It looks like kind of just a glorified vendor-store attached to a procedurally malleable environment. I hope I'm wrong.
You'll notice I'm not talking about the larger fleets, but the smaller ones. Nobody said there was something inherently wrong with the advantage of larger fleets, but that smaller fleets are unfairly overburdened with the task of a workload of larger fleets. That is the point of this.
I think we're understanding each other fairly well, and I apologize for any ham-handedness in my responses. I sometimes am overly blunt.
One thing I think we can agree on is that the Fleet Advancement system, and Fleet Starbases, is something that a lot of players are obviously interested in participating in, so I think they are at least on the right track. Balance, of course, is going to be a continual effort, no matter which way they go with it.
For me, some of it just boils down to fundamental design. If two groups are going to buy the exact same item with the same features, why should one group be charged more for it than the other simply because they have more resources. And, from the suggestions I'm hearing, it wouldn't be a little more, it would be a LOT more.
That seems just as unfair to me. Imagine someone that makes 10 times as much money as someone else, but as a result, being charged 10 times as much for food, gas, and everything else because he/she "can afford it." Wow, sounds like some tax codes out there....
I do agree that some adjusting can and probably should be done. We're probably never going to get to the point where everyone unanimously agrees on what's "reasonable", unfortunately.
I really do like what they've done with the system so far, though. Not all advancement in an MMO needs to be straight combat. Really like my starbase.
In a fleet of about 5 players since before S7 our development was already slow. S7 has not increased or decreased our progression at all. My Fleet is in it for the long run as a group. We contribute when we can and if a task is complete then it is. This is what we agreed to in the social contract we made as a group by virtue of making the Fleet and not actively increasing the membership.
From my point of view anybody in a small fleet could (should?) accept that the starbase will not grow at a rate that is noticable from week-to-week. If that is too long then there are really two choices available: 1) stick with it, 2) drop the group and join a bigger Fleet. It's that simple.
The OP has started asking (paraphrased), "Is the Starbase worth it?" That is a question relevant to each person, I think. They are worth it if you feel that way. Nobody has to build a base. No one.
Please show me where I used the phrase "pay less" or said I should be given a "discount" price. All I'm questioning is the magic number of 25 used to calculate the average group size, and expressing an opinion that the tasks involved lean toward boring and repetitive (and thereby discouraging) for smaller groups. As I've said a couple of times now, Cryptic used the same "25" in CoH and that turned out to be way off.
You were complaining about smaller fleets being "punished" for choosing to remain small. Same thing.
Then, you did the same thing and ignored my questions. Do you think small fleets deserve to pay less for the same starbase simply because they've chosen to have small numbers?
I don't think anyone has been saying that the numbers shouldn't be reviewed, or are undeniably perfect. In fact, I'd contend that balance should be a continual process within any MMO, this one included. So far, since Season 7 came out, they have already made some changes. I'd expect more as the game goes along. I just hope they are measured and based on good research, and not on the emotionalism or agendas of forum posters.
We're a small fleet of about 8 pretty close and very active mature players. We have a tier 2 starbase with most of the upgrades and on the way to tier 3. The need for dilithium in everything now and the high cost of it has slowed us down considerably to a near standstill. ( a few of us would just buy the dil needed for the special projects for the fleet in the past... not now with the rates). The Klingon starbase is suffering the most but is still the coolest looking.
We're down, but not out.
btw- We are totally ignoring the useless embassies.
I can echo this. Our Fleet is made up of 10 mature people, all of whom play this and other games together. We're friends, we're close, and there isn't anyone in the Fleet who is "outside" the group - said only to frame the fact that we're all of similar mind, game style, and so on, so I know I can speak collectively here.
Although we keep on keepin' on and grinding it out, it's getting increasingly more difficult to maintain not only the resources, but the desire to do new projects. It's just too costly. Now, as one person has suggested, we could recruit, but why bring a bunch of strangers into a group for the purpose of more resources, thereby not only affecting our play and social dynamics, but unfairly using others. I know some really enjoy the social, meet-n-greet of the game, but it's just not us. I know there are A LOT of groups who are the same way, most numbering far less than the "average" 25 members.
Basically, as one other person has said, however cool and fun these things are to "have," Starbases are essentially pointless until you hit T3, and even the lower-tier projects and such are over-costly. Embassies are absolutely useless, and we have refrained from improving them as others have indicated they do as well.
We'll keep going as long as we can, but there is already a decrease in group project morale and the level of interest in pursuing higher tiers. Right now, it all feels a lot more like (expensive) 'busy work.'
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge (...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
Please show me where I used the phrase "pay less" or said I should be given a "discount" price. All I'm questioning is the magic number of 25 used to calculate the average group size, and expressing an opinion that the tasks involved lean toward boring and repetitive (and thereby discouraging) for smaller groups. As I've said a couple of times now, Cryptic used the same "25" in CoH and that turned out to be way off.
This thread has shown one thing - Mr Stahls vaulted "25 casual players in a fleet can do it" - as in reaching T5 within a year is nothing but a fantasy
He made this kind of statement several times - both before and after - not may times after as it became apparent very quickly this was a HUGE under estimate of players or Huge under estimate of time required.
There is no way his 25 casual players playing 2 hours a day can realistically build a T5 base in anything short or 2 years - especially given all the new grinding for rep systems
Theoretically it could be done by less people in a year if they all worked 8 hrs a day on it - but most would give up long before the end due to burnout.
Either they have to reduce the commitment based on size or make the rewards of all the work WAYYYYY more attractive.
This thread has shown one thing - Mr Stahls vaulted "25 casual players in a fleet can do it" - as in reaching T5 within a year is nothing but a fantasy
He made this kind of statement several times - both before and after - not may times after as it became apparent very quickly this was a HUGE under estimate of players or Huge under estimate of time required.
There is no way his 25 casual players playing 2 hours a day can realistically build a T5 base in anything short or 2 years - especially given all the new grinding for rep systems
Theoretically it could be done by less people in a year if they all worked 8 hrs a day on it - but most would give up long before the end due to burnout.
Either they have to reduce the commitment based on size or make the rewards of all the work WAYYYYY more attractive.
So they added more systems that detract from building the starbase. Well so be it. You need to look at this from another perspective. If you had finished the starbase, embassy and reputation tiers then you would be complaining that there is nothing to do in the game.
There is nothing critical in the starbase system that you require to play. All of the ships or items give you some benefits. The dilithium sink that it has provided has improved the zen price so you can actually purchase things in a reasonable amount of time. If everyone finished the starbase/embassy/reputation systems then the price of zen would increase again.
Prior to season 7 and recent changes for making dil via romulan/omega marks dilithium supply was a major issue and slowed a lot of projects. Since these changes I've found the fleet marks are what is holding up projects. You can make fleet marks from a lot of different places now if you have active players you should be able to keep some projects ticking over.
I think a lot of the issues for fleets that don't feel they are progressing is that they are only looking at the grind. Focus on the parts of the game that you like and a lot of fleet resources turn up as a side effect. Even if you only manage doffs you get fleet marks this way as well. If there's something you really want from one of the tiers you can grind for it or just be patient and wait for it to turn up.
25 individual players could progress the SB very easily.
My solo fleet contains 10 characters, all are me. I would progress much faster if it was 10 characters from 3 actual players.
If it was 10 actual players i'd be laughing.
25 players (not characters) would chrun through the projects without breaking a sweat.
No matter how efficient you are, with season 7 there is a diminishing value on an alt with the removal of the officer dailies. This is what has switched the really small/solo bases into the "not viable" stage.
My solo base is no longer worth the input, so i'm off looking for a larger fleet. I'll only take a few of my characters with me, ones that can contribute. As much as it pains me to say it, i'll probably add more value to a fleet as a cog in the system than the ruler and master of my own fleet.
25 individual players could progress the SB very easily.
My solo fleet contains 10 characters, all are me. I would progress much faster if it was 10 characters from 3 actual players.
If it was 10 actual players i'd be laughing.
25 players (not characters) would chrun through the projects without breaking a sweat.
No matter how efficient you are, with season 7 there is a diminishing value on an alt with the removal of the officer dailies. This is what has switched the really small/solo bases into the "not viable" stage.
My solo base is no longer worth the input, so i'm off looking for a larger fleet. I'll only take a few of my characters with me, ones that can contribute. As much as it pains me to say it, i'll probably add more value to a fleet as a cog in the system than the ruler and master of my own fleet.
GAFleet - no hassle, no contribution quotas, few restrictions. Drop a PM if interested.
25 individual players could progress the SB very easily.
My solo fleet contains 10 characters, all are me. I would progress much faster if it was 10 characters from 3 actual players.
If it was 10 actual players i'd be laughing.
25 players (not characters) would chrun through the projects without breaking a sweat.
No matter how efficient you are, with season 7 there is a diminishing value on an alt with the removal of the officer dailies. This is what has switched the really small/solo bases into the "not viable" stage.
My solo base is no longer worth the input, so i'm off looking for a larger fleet. I'll only take a few of my characters with me, ones that can contribute. As much as it pains me to say it, i'll probably add more value to a fleet as a cog in the system than the ruler and master of my own fleet.
Of course it is do-able: Levi3 produced the first solo Tier 3 starbase fleet 'starbase 001' back at the beginning of Oct - under to tougher old system! So yeah it's possible but it drove him crazy.
But for most people the grind is just getting old. Fleet marks being a big issue. I said before that a small thing which could be done right away would be to increase the officer of the watch to 25 marks. At least alts would then have some use again.
Of course it is do-able: Levi3 produced the first solo Tier 3 starbase fleet 'starbase 001' back at the beginning of Oct - under to tougher old system! So yeah it's possible but it drove him crazy.
And also burned him out, haven't seen a post from him since then.
No-one has really answered the MAIN issue - is Fleet gear better than Omega or Stuff on the exchange?
A fleet of 50 people - that gear will end up costing 100x the Omega gear or Exchange gear - so is it 100x better?
Usually if someone is gour to put 1000 hours into building a base for gear they would expect vastly superior gear than 100 hours of STF/Romulan play
SO WHY WASTE TIME ON STARBASES?? - Is the gear 10x better at least??
And if it is Inferior to the new top end Omega gear - then building bases now is Insane!!
$20 million EC for a Purple MII Phaser DHC Accx3
250k in contraband = 2000 dith so for 1 million ec that's 8000 dith
so for that weapon that 80,000 dilth
Now how much do the T5 elite space weapons cost?
Well input costs in EC to get to Tier 5 (opportunity costs of not selling doffs + commodities) is easily $20 billion ec and 25,000,000 dilthium
so for a fleet of 100 people that is $200 million ec each + 250,000 dilth
Not to mention hundred if not 1000's of hours grinding Fleet marks
So is the gear worth the effort? It better make you invisible or pretty close!!
And that is with 100 active people - not the 25 that were used in the Cryptic's calculations
This in my opinion is the key. The starbases are simply not worth it. Accx3 weapons etc. are the best, which are not fleet weapons. In my opinion, M.A.C.O. shields are the best. I like the Aegis deflector and engine set up the best. The fleet stuff is not the best for PvP, and for PvE, you can basically use anything you pick up. Starbases do nothing, which is kind of comical considering how many resources are dumped into them. I personally dont think that the Tier 5 fleet ships are the best.
When you could do clickies and STFs gave a lot of dilithium, the fact that Starbases were worthless did not matter as much, because the cute stuff like the fish tank etc. etc. was OK. It cost a lot of dilithium but you could get a lot of dilithium easily. Now, it is extremely difficult to get any dilithium, and you need it for so many different things. The fact that Starbases are worthless is extremely glaring.
In my humble opinion, Cryptic needs to re evalutate what type of gaming their playerbase wants to engage in, and make sure the game helps facilitate that type of gaming. In other words, STO has a lot of casual players with decent amounts of disposable income. So long as Cryptic provides a fairly easy way for these players to play the game and spend a bit of money to progress a decent amount, the players will do so. If Cryptic tries to make this an extreme grinder game or an extreme whale game, they will fail horribly. Most of the playerbase wants this game to succeed, and will pay to help that happen. However, if the game becomes such a burdensome grind, those players will not pay anything.
This in my opinion is the key. The starbases are simply not worth it. Accx3 weapons etc. are the best, which are not fleet weapons. In my opinion, M.A.C.O. shields are the best. I like the Aegis deflector and engine set up the best. The fleet stuff is not the best for PvP, and for PvE, you can basically use anything you pick up. Starbases do nothing, which is kind of comical considering how many resources are dumped into them. I personally dont think that the Tier 5 fleet ships are the best.
When you could do clickies and STFs gave a lot of dilithium, the fact that Starbases were worthless did not matter as much, because the cute stuff like the fish tank etc. etc. was OK. It cost a lot of dilithium but you could get a lot of dilithium easily. Now, it is extremely difficult to get any dilithium, and you need it for so many different things. The fact that Starbases are worthless is extremely glaring.
In my humble opinion, Cryptic needs to re evalutate what type of gaming their playerbase wants to engage in, and make sure the game helps facilitate that type of gaming. In other words, STO has a lot of casual players with decent amounts of disposable income. So long as Cryptic provides a fairly easy way for these players to play the game and spend a bit of money to progress a decent amount, the players will do so. If Cryptic tries to make this an extreme grinder game or an extreme whale game, they will fail horribly. Most of the playerbase wants this game to succeed, and will pay to help that happen. However, if the game becomes such a burdensome grind, those players will not pay anything.
I think there was great discussion in the PvP section that Fleet gear was sub-par to other gear in the game - and these guys print out combat logs and look at the data!! crazy I have know idea exactly what my weapons do.
so if the PvP crowd says they are not the best - why do they cost so much? and I am not talking about cost in the starbase store - but factoring cost of building the base.
Short of having 300+ people sharing the costs - the cost of sub-par gear is just not worth it. Why would cryptic put out sub par gear at 100x the cost of other gear based on an avg fleet size of 25 people?
I guess they think we are stupid - and from all the people - me included who have dumped massive reasources into bases - I guess we are stupid.
You could possibly get better gear if you made it your self crafted except the armour pices and ship engines won't have the effect that the STF,Aegis,Reman and Jem Adar does.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
You could possibly get better gear if you made it your self crafted except the armour pices and ship engines won't have the effect that the STF,Aegis,Reman and Jem Adar does.
Best gear from what the PvP guys say is STF, from drops, and lock-box - like the spiral wave disruptor beams. I am speaking of space of course. Ground does not really matter as 90% of the people in fleets don't do much ground anyways. And now that you can get maco/honor without doing ground i hear that the Q's for STF ground are a ghost town.
Best gear from what the PvP guys say is STF, from drops, and lock-box - like the spiral wave disruptor beams. I am speaking of space of course. Ground does not really matter as 90% of the people in fleets don't do much ground anyways. And now that you can get maco/honor without doing ground i hear that the Q's for STF ground are a ghost town.
That is gear not weapons but yeah.I am just looking at other options as it now takes more time to get that gear unless you want to grind it out.
When it coes to weapon the crafted or dilth are better than the borg ones as my Patrol Escot does more damage than my Armitage with type X cannons and turrets.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
I personally dont think that the Tier 5 fleet ships are the best.
Some are , some aren't .
For me , I got to fly a Luna and a K'tinga at T5 .
None of those two are OP in the slightest ... , but they are some of my favorite canon ships .
So there's my "win" .
But I stil think that the Fleet Starbases are nothing but an uber expensive superstore -- and unless you are a RP guy , you'll spend as much time there as you would at a superstore .
6 pages of this thread on the pvp forums leads me to think that the Tier 4 Rom passives just might do that ... .
Of course this rep system has nothing to do with the starbase system.
But I stil think that the Fleet Starbases are nothing but an uber expensive superstore -- and unless you are a RP guy , you'll spend as much time there as you would at a superstore .
Just a few days ago I became a member of one of the biggest and most advanced of the KDF fleets. A very nice one.
they avg about 30 players online all the time. 3 times I visited the T4 1/3 progressed starbase with every bell and whistle - I was the only one there - one time there was 1 other player there for a few minutes in passing.
Yeah great "social" hubs they are - my behind - Cryptic just created another Uber - ultra - super expensive gated store for so-so gear/equipment.
Comments
Exactly what content is it you're being excluded from?
A few items that have equivalents you can earn doing other stuff, and? What you can get by having a T3 or higher SB is so far from being a significant portion of content that you are clearly doing nothing but trolling by making a post like that.
Putting any stock in what you read here is a pretty silly thing to do. You can not know how fleets of ~25 people are actually doing based on what you read on these message boards.
How are they being punished exactly? Even a 5 person fleet can make it to T1 fairly quickly, and the SB is functional at T0.
So how are they being punished or being treated unfairly if they chose to remain a small fleet?
This is a game design issue, not a method to shore up your withered ego.
Could say quite as easily that it's an attempt by small fleets to get their ego inflated artificially and have everything handed to them on a sliver platter because they're not willing to put the effort required into getting what they want.
Assuming that people are trying to keep you down or be better then you, is a symptom of paranoia, not a debate method.
That's part of the beauty of MMO players. What one player classifies as a "chore", is something that gives a game "meaning" to another player.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't need another 100 meaningless "kill x of y" quests in my games to give me pointless make-work to do. I'd rather have content/missions/whatever that fed into a larger, long term system, preferably one in which other players are also involved.
Simply put some of us like playing the game in small fleets because they tend to be friendlier and make for a better experience. At the same time we want to actually be able to progress in the fleet system without feeling that we're being punished by it. By that I mean not having to take weeks just to fill out one project with every active member on daily grinding out necessary requirements. The games meant to be fun and challenging, not a chore. Nothing is keeping Crytpic from working on the system so it scales to a fleets size, or even revamping the system so it is really small and medium fleet oriented, rather than what they say is small and medium fleet oriented. The fleet number they say they've built the system for isn't working. I've seen fleets bigger than mine break apart because they can't progress. That's a problem. The fleet system is supposed to bring a fleet together, not make the game feel like a chore and make it seem like you have to sell your soul to a large fleet to achieve anything. It certainly wasn't intended to make people take an elitist "go big or die its your own fault" position. So it needs to actually fulfill its goal, and with the way the projects are set up right now, it's not doing that.
My fleet was small to begin with. A dozen plus members, only a handful active. There's about three of us making contributions these days but I lead it by far.
The problem isn't just participation. it's that it's discouraging after awhile.
First, there's the fleet mark problem. When we had the 'Investigate Officer Report' easy missions working, we could farm fleet marks easier and with multiple alts. Now that you have to use Cryptic approved maps for the same thing, such mark grinding takes a lot longer. And trust me... it can take awhile when you're looking at 600 fleet marks a mission.
That's a problem that cryptic needs to address.
And then there's dilithium. Normally that wouldn't be so bad. Normally. Problem is that dilithium is too expensive these days. I find my fleetmates are not using their dilithium for projects but instead are using it to buy Zen. Frankly, I can't blame them. Zen is really cheap to buy with dilithium these days.
Though cryptic exasperates the problem by maintaining extremely high dilithium costs for fleet projects, duty officer exchanges and equipment, this is mostly a player problem because WE SET THE VALUE! I honestly thought that when we were allowed to cash reputation points for dil that this problem would be solved... nope! Dilithium prices still hover in the low 100's. Free market arguments aside, cryptic should know, as a game company, that players will exploit the hell out of each other every chance they get (which means they will gouge on dil prices), so it is up to them to minimize the damage on that front.
And then there was the personnel officer glitch. At least that was fixed (thank you!).
So in short... everything's too damn expensive and grinding for the required materials burns my fellow fleeties out!
We tried recruiting... we could only get limited numbers. Why? Because... they all want to be in a bigger fleet with more stuff in their starbase! Big flipping surprise!
But not everything's been bad. I'm happy that only common doffs are needed for projects so those are easy enough to get, and the amount needed has been reduced to a... I wouldn't say a reasonable level but I'd say a more manageable level. Also, selling commons makes for a good source of EC. Bravo!
I'm part of what I'd say is a typical fleet, ~25 people, and we just hit T3.
I joined that fleet in part because it seemed like a decent group of people, and in part because I believed they'd be able to get a SB up and running.
I have no desire to join a fleet of 3 people, SB or no. I want to be part of a larger fleet because that means there's more people to play with. But I also don't really care how long it takes us to hit T4 because what's offered at T4 simply isn't that big of a deal.
Yes there is. It's the fact that such a system would be extremely exploitable. No matter what you do, it will allow large fleets to form a smaller one, burn though projects and be done way faster then is intended.
If that's what you want to call it, then go ahead. I don't really care if you feel you're being punished or not. If having a persecution complex helps, then who am I to stop you?
I think we're understanding each other fairly well, and I apologize for any ham-handedness in my responses. I sometimes am overly blunt.
One thing I think we can agree on is that the Fleet Advancement system, and Fleet Starbases, is something that a lot of players are obviously interested in participating in, so I think they are at least on the right track. Balance, of course, is going to be a continual effort, no matter which way they go with it.
For me, some of it just boils down to fundamental design. If two groups are going to buy the exact same item with the same features, why should one group be charged more for it than the other simply because they have more resources. And, from the suggestions I'm hearing, it wouldn't be a little more, it would be a LOT more.
That seems just as unfair to me. Imagine someone that makes 10 times as much money as someone else, but as a result, being charged 10 times as much for food, gas, and everything else because he/she "can afford it." Wow, sounds like some tax codes out there....
I do agree that some adjusting can and probably should be done. We're probably never going to get to the point where everyone unanimously agrees on what's "reasonable", unfortunately.
I really do like what they've done with the system so far, though. Not all advancement in an MMO needs to be straight combat. Really like my starbase.
He answered your question.
Why do you think you should get a discount, and pay less than a larger fleet, simply because you've chosen to be in a small fleet?
Why do you think you're entitled to pay less for the same starbase?
In a fleet of about 5 players since before S7 our development was already slow. S7 has not increased or decreased our progression at all. My Fleet is in it for the long run as a group. We contribute when we can and if a task is complete then it is. This is what we agreed to in the social contract we made as a group by virtue of making the Fleet and not actively increasing the membership.
From my point of view anybody in a small fleet could (should?) accept that the starbase will not grow at a rate that is noticable from week-to-week. If that is too long then there are really two choices available: 1) stick with it, 2) drop the group and join a bigger Fleet. It's that simple.
The OP has started asking (paraphrased), "Is the Starbase worth it?" That is a question relevant to each person, I think. They are worth it if you feel that way. Nobody has to build a base. No one.
You were complaining about smaller fleets being "punished" for choosing to remain small. Same thing.
Then, you did the same thing and ignored my questions. Do you think small fleets deserve to pay less for the same starbase simply because they've chosen to have small numbers?
I don't think anyone has been saying that the numbers shouldn't be reviewed, or are undeniably perfect. In fact, I'd contend that balance should be a continual process within any MMO, this one included. So far, since Season 7 came out, they have already made some changes. I'd expect more as the game goes along. I just hope they are measured and based on good research, and not on the emotionalism or agendas of forum posters.
I can echo this. Our Fleet is made up of 10 mature people, all of whom play this and other games together. We're friends, we're close, and there isn't anyone in the Fleet who is "outside" the group - said only to frame the fact that we're all of similar mind, game style, and so on, so I know I can speak collectively here.
Although we keep on keepin' on and grinding it out, it's getting increasingly more difficult to maintain not only the resources, but the desire to do new projects. It's just too costly. Now, as one person has suggested, we could recruit, but why bring a bunch of strangers into a group for the purpose of more resources, thereby not only affecting our play and social dynamics, but unfairly using others. I know some really enjoy the social, meet-n-greet of the game, but it's just not us. I know there are A LOT of groups who are the same way, most numbering far less than the "average" 25 members.
Basically, as one other person has said, however cool and fun these things are to "have," Starbases are essentially pointless until you hit T3, and even the lower-tier projects and such are over-costly. Embassies are absolutely useless, and we have refrained from improving them as others have indicated they do as well.
We'll keep going as long as we can, but there is already a decrease in group project morale and the level of interest in pursuing higher tiers. Right now, it all feels a lot more like (expensive) 'busy work.'
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
This thread has shown one thing - Mr Stahls vaulted "25 casual players in a fleet can do it" - as in reaching T5 within a year is nothing but a fantasy
He made this kind of statement several times - both before and after - not may times after as it became apparent very quickly this was a HUGE under estimate of players or Huge under estimate of time required.
There is no way his 25 casual players playing 2 hours a day can realistically build a T5 base in anything short or 2 years - especially given all the new grinding for rep systems
Theoretically it could be done by less people in a year if they all worked 8 hrs a day on it - but most would give up long before the end due to burnout.
Either they have to reduce the commitment based on size or make the rewards of all the work WAYYYYY more attractive.
So they added more systems that detract from building the starbase. Well so be it. You need to look at this from another perspective. If you had finished the starbase, embassy and reputation tiers then you would be complaining that there is nothing to do in the game.
There is nothing critical in the starbase system that you require to play. All of the ships or items give you some benefits. The dilithium sink that it has provided has improved the zen price so you can actually purchase things in a reasonable amount of time. If everyone finished the starbase/embassy/reputation systems then the price of zen would increase again.
Prior to season 7 and recent changes for making dil via romulan/omega marks dilithium supply was a major issue and slowed a lot of projects. Since these changes I've found the fleet marks are what is holding up projects. You can make fleet marks from a lot of different places now if you have active players you should be able to keep some projects ticking over.
I think a lot of the issues for fleets that don't feel they are progressing is that they are only looking at the grind. Focus on the parts of the game that you like and a lot of fleet resources turn up as a side effect. Even if you only manage doffs you get fleet marks this way as well. If there's something you really want from one of the tiers you can grind for it or just be patient and wait for it to turn up.
My solo fleet contains 10 characters, all are me. I would progress much faster if it was 10 characters from 3 actual players.
If it was 10 actual players i'd be laughing.
25 players (not characters) would chrun through the projects without breaking a sweat.
No matter how efficient you are, with season 7 there is a diminishing value on an alt with the removal of the officer dailies. This is what has switched the really small/solo bases into the "not viable" stage.
My solo base is no longer worth the input, so i'm off looking for a larger fleet. I'll only take a few of my characters with me, ones that can contribute. As much as it pains me to say it, i'll probably add more value to a fleet as a cog in the system than the ruler and master of my own fleet.
GAFleet - no hassle, no contribution quotas, few restrictions. Drop a PM if interested.
Of course it is do-able: Levi3 produced the first solo Tier 3 starbase fleet 'starbase 001' back at the beginning of Oct - under to tougher old system! So yeah it's possible but it drove him crazy.
But for most people the grind is just getting old. Fleet marks being a big issue. I said before that a small thing which could be done right away would be to increase the officer of the watch to 25 marks. At least alts would then have some use again.
And also burned him out, haven't seen a post from him since then.
This in my opinion is the key. The starbases are simply not worth it. Accx3 weapons etc. are the best, which are not fleet weapons. In my opinion, M.A.C.O. shields are the best. I like the Aegis deflector and engine set up the best. The fleet stuff is not the best for PvP, and for PvE, you can basically use anything you pick up. Starbases do nothing, which is kind of comical considering how many resources are dumped into them. I personally dont think that the Tier 5 fleet ships are the best.
When you could do clickies and STFs gave a lot of dilithium, the fact that Starbases were worthless did not matter as much, because the cute stuff like the fish tank etc. etc. was OK. It cost a lot of dilithium but you could get a lot of dilithium easily. Now, it is extremely difficult to get any dilithium, and you need it for so many different things. The fact that Starbases are worthless is extremely glaring.
In my humble opinion, Cryptic needs to re evalutate what type of gaming their playerbase wants to engage in, and make sure the game helps facilitate that type of gaming. In other words, STO has a lot of casual players with decent amounts of disposable income. So long as Cryptic provides a fairly easy way for these players to play the game and spend a bit of money to progress a decent amount, the players will do so. If Cryptic tries to make this an extreme grinder game or an extreme whale game, they will fail horribly. Most of the playerbase wants this game to succeed, and will pay to help that happen. However, if the game becomes such a burdensome grind, those players will not pay anything.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
I think there was great discussion in the PvP section that Fleet gear was sub-par to other gear in the game - and these guys print out combat logs and look at the data!! crazy I have know idea exactly what my weapons do.
so if the PvP crowd says they are not the best - why do they cost so much? and I am not talking about cost in the starbase store - but factoring cost of building the base.
Short of having 300+ people sharing the costs - the cost of sub-par gear is just not worth it. Why would cryptic put out sub par gear at 100x the cost of other gear based on an avg fleet size of 25 people?
I guess they think we are stupid - and from all the people - me included who have dumped massive reasources into bases - I guess we are stupid.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Best gear from what the PvP guys say is STF, from drops, and lock-box - like the spiral wave disruptor beams. I am speaking of space of course. Ground does not really matter as 90% of the people in fleets don't do much ground anyways. And now that you can get maco/honor without doing ground i hear that the Q's for STF ground are a ghost town.
That is gear not weapons but yeah.I am just looking at other options as it now takes more time to get that gear unless you want to grind it out.
When it coes to weapon the crafted or dilth are better than the borg ones as my Patrol Escot does more damage than my Armitage with type X cannons and turrets.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
6 pages of this thread on the pvp forums leads me to think that the Tier 4 Rom passives just might do that ... .
Some are , some aren't .
For me , I got to fly a Luna and a K'tinga at T5 .
None of those two are OP in the slightest ... , but they are some of my favorite canon ships .
So there's my "win" .
But I stil think that the Fleet Starbases are nothing but an uber expensive superstore -- and unless you are a RP guy , you'll spend as much time there as you would at a superstore .
Of course this rep system has nothing to do with the starbase system.
Just a few days ago I became a member of one of the biggest and most advanced of the KDF fleets. A very nice one.
they avg about 30 players online all the time. 3 times I visited the T4 1/3 progressed starbase with every bell and whistle - I was the only one there - one time there was 1 other player there for a few minutes in passing.
Yeah great "social" hubs they are - my behind - Cryptic just created another Uber - ultra - super expensive gated store for so-so gear/equipment.