To that sentiment, I respond, from the bottom of my heart, KISS MY GRITS.
But there is a small percentage of people (lets give them the name "mark") out of the thousands that quit and start the game anew day in and day out, that will.
Take that percentage and times it by what they buy and times that by the number of days in a quarter. Cryptic takes that and gives it to pwe and pwe shares that with its shareholder.
Rinse repeat.
This isn't rocket science.
you say 15 active? out of 120 people? What do the rest do? That's what I can't understand - how some fleets can have 100+ people inactive - how does this work?
We've been a fleet in STO since launch day. The 120 number is just people who aren't active lately, haven't come back, etc. Especially based on a huge jump we had from when F2P went active, getting tons of people who joined the fleet as first-time players and for whatever reason decided not to become dedicated or consistent players. Some log back in months later to see what new content's been added. Some don't.
Pretty sure there're plenty of old fleets with tons of unremoved players on their rosters after 2.8 years.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
The fleet I'm in has over 30 members, many of them were active during S5 and S6, but now the fleet is all but dead since mid S6 because of the exhorbitant dilithium costs for the upgrade/provisioning projects. Just 3 or 4 people who even log in at all, and only one of them regularly (and that's not me) is what's left. Since S7 most of us who have logged in at all, including myself, have only done it for doffs or omega/rom marks out of curiosity to see what's available with the rep system since it doesn't cost much to raise it in the early tiers. But at this point I only log in to browse exchange while I'm surfing the web, and for the Q photo daily in winter wonderland.
What has this got to do with customer retention? Sub-fee or F2P doesn't matter. Developers will want to find and retain customers.
Player retention is important. Players who are personally invested in a game are more likely to buy. The longer they play, the more invested in the game they are and it would take a major TRIBBLE up (like Season 7) to get them to divest and leave. You can see how powerful that is by all the apologias offered up in Cryptic's defense by some people who feel they are too invested to just walk away.
The people who do not alt in s7 do not know what they are doing.
One hour a day is all that is required per character to get to the romulan/omega/dilithium limits.
I find that hard to believe. Marks? Maybe. Tau Dewa patrol can be easily finished in 10-15 min by spamming the Acamar patrol with a run of KASE with optional for omega. But dil? Unlikely unless you're a tacscort to blow through defera/sh'mar/traelus dailies while farming contraband with KDF marauding assignments to fuel the turn in on all of the characters.
The fleet I'm in has over 30 members, many of them were active during S5 and S6, but now the fleet is all but dead since mid S6 because of the exhorbitant dilithium costs for the upgrade/provisioning projects. Just 3 or 4 people who even log in at all, and only one of them regularly (and that's not me) is what's left. Since S7 most of us who have logged in at all, including myself, have only done it for doffs or omega/rom marks out of curiosity to see what's available with the rep system since it doesn't cost much to raise it in the early tiers. But at this point I only log in to browse exchange while I'm surfing the web, and for the Q photo daily in winter wonderland.
It seems this is the norm? So many fleets with members that are there only in name and not active.
I wonder just how many people Since just before season 7 and then for sure after season 7 just said F this and don't bother logging it more than a couple times and don't bother doing anything with the fleet.
So major Questions?
1. Are elite fleet gear/weapons better than Omega/Honor guard or what you can get on the exchange?
And if not - why do people even bother with a Starbase? As all it is is a store? It seems the imputs that a player would put into building a base up to Tier 5 would be 10- 100x the cost of those elite Purple accx3 weapons on the exchange
So what is the purpose of the Starbase? And T5 offers like 1 decent ship? Why pay Hundreds of dollars when lock-box or new C-store ships will be better?
Can the larger fleet members explain just why they are building their leader his sky castle?
I highly doubt Cryptic/PWE has no interest in player retention.
I doubt the assertion that they don't have an interest in player retention as well.
I do, however, believe it's not their priority.
Cryptic likely knew they were going to upset a lot of veteran players with and around Season 7 by the systems and recycling decisions they made: The revamp of the STF system that gutted the earnings of STF vets; the redress of old STF content for a third iteration (akin to microwaving leftovers for a second time); tightening access to dilithium while expanding expenditures of dilithium (evidenced in the tanking of the dilithium market despite the release of shiny zen toys like the Vesta line). These are not changes which would endear themselves to veteran players, but would be the norm to new players with no concept of ye olde days.
If Cryptic held player retention and the grandfathering in of older players in high regard, there are plenty of avenues they could have taken. I don't feel they have. I feel Season 7 as a mix of hopeful if underwhelming play content and frustratingly regurgitated, cheap busywork and grind. Therefore I've been taking an extended break from STO to sniff out SW:TOR (which has an inferior F2P model to STO, by the way. They treat their F2P players as 3rd-worlders and barely hide the lack of respect for freeloaders). I wouldn't be surprised if others have roamed as well, having lost that spark that kept them going.
The F2P model for a game to survive does not necessarily call for player retention if those subbers aren't going to throw money out to feed and sustain the game. Quick bites from microtransactions are more valued than subscriptions. Player retention is key for a subscription model, where the priorities of the income channels (subscription and microtransactions) are reversed and primary income is from keeping people playing, making their subscription 'worth it' to renew or extend.
Subscriptions matter. They're big cookies. But free players without subscriptions have to be milked as well and their priority over those paid into the system with time and subscription is Cryptic's focus I think.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
As a member of Jupiter Force I sympathize with the plight of small fleets, because you are not going to complete your Starbase to Tier V. It won't be because of desire or effort, it is a simple matter of MATH and TIME.
As a large fleet we struggle to find the fleet marks to sustain projects in the haul between Tier IV and Tier V, and that is despite having a hundred characters maxed in DOFFs and 30+ people active everyday. With all the various gated systems in the game, not to mention playstyles, it's simply not possible right now to get enough fleet marks to sustain 3 projects a day unless everyone actively farms fleet marks, and fleets simply can't ask members to do this every day for months and months with no end in sight.
Our KDF Starbase is stuck at upgrade for Tier IV. We filled everything but fleet marks, including 1,900,000 dilithium, very easily... but it will take the rest of the year to farm the 24000 fleet marks. If it takes a large active fleet like Jupiter Force a month to fill fleet marks on a Starbase upgrade project, I'm sorry but it suggests to me smaller fleets have no shot in hell of filling it in a way that sustains momentum and active engagement with the system by members of small fleets.
The way STO has disconnected players from the various currencies required to pace progress to the content systems in the game is the failure of Season 7, and probably the single best thing STO could do to encourage players to try TOR F2P. It is hard to imagine the balance sheet at PWE will see Season 7 as anything other than a massive flop, and the reason is because "it's the economy stupid" - so the phrase goes.
I note Dan Stahl isn't engaged with the community much over the last few weeks. Probably smart, he is the face of fail in Season 7, and all his economic theories failed miserably... evidenced by the exodus of player activity shortly after season 7 launch.
But there is an end in sight, contrary to the part of your rant I highlighted in red. Eventually, your fleet (and mine) will achieve Tier V, which will actually feel like a major accomplishment, which is something that few games allow players to do these days.
Why?
Because the "instant gratification" crowd is being catered to in every game.
Let me ask you a question. Given the size of your fleet, and comparing that to the capabilities of smaller fleets, what if you had attained a T5 Starbase in just two or three weeks? What would you be saying, or more likely, be complaining about then?
"It's too easy!" "It's too fast!" "No challenge!" And, ultimately, "I don't have anything to work toward or do."
Why should a small fleet, with perhaps 2 or 3 active players, be able to attain a major achievement in the game quickly?
Sorry, this is an MMO. I've seen the entire genre turned upside-down because so many casual and solo players expect everything to be easily attained. I'm glad this one system has been different.
And that's ultimately what I see here. The vast majority of the complaining hasn't been about the desire to have a high tier starbase - indeed, most appear to want one. The complaints center around the fact that they can't get one fast or easily enough. That's the problem with the instant gratification mentality, which has been destroying the MMORPG genre for years.
But there is an end in sight, contrary to the part of your rant I highlighted in red. Eventually, your fleet (and mine) will achieve Tier V, which will actually feel like a major accomplishment, which is something that few games allow players to do these days.
Why?
Because the "instant gratification" crowd is being catered to in every game.
Let me ask you a question. Given the size of your fleet, and comparing that to the capabilities of smaller fleets, what if you had attained a T5 Starbase in just two or three weeks? What would you be saying, or more likely, be complaining about then?
"It's too easy!" "It's too fast!" "No challenge!" And, ultimately, "I don't have anything to work toward or do."
Why should a small fleet, with perhaps 2 or 3 active players, be able to attain a major achievement in the game quickly?
Sorry, this is an MMO. I've seen the entire genre turned upside-down because so many casual and solo players expect everything to be easily attained. I'm glad this one system has been different.
And that's ultimately what I see here. The vast majority of the complaining hasn't been about the desire to have a high tier starbase - indeed, most appear to want one. The complaints center around the fact that they can't get one fast or easily enough. That's the problem with instant gratification which has been destroying the MMORPG genre for years.
The denigration of players who find fault with the Fleet Advancement system as being 'not fast enough' is a common refrain of the 'suck it up, princess' crowd.
'No end in sight' means there is no visible conclusion with the means available, it doesn't mean 'It is impossible for you'. Spit in the direction of Jupiter in space and your spit-wad will get there...someday... For small fleets, this 'no end in sight' is a harsh reality that tells them that there is an end, but they cannot and, realistically, will not see it.
If you take in as many arguments against the FA system as you suggest, you'd notice that the primary frustration is not a demand to make things 'easy', but to make them 'fair'. A larger fleet with a vast resource pool has a simpler time at accomplishing a goal-oriented system like the FA than a fleet comprised of a handful of five, six, seven friends. The FA system is a flat, fixed resource sink for them all. This is not efficient because it assumes that every fleet in STO is the same exact size with the same number of resources (the devs claim 25 active people). People who will never tire, and who see the system as rewarding enough to continue for however many months it takes for them to get what they want.
A flat rate of project cost is at the heart of the problem and Cryptic is unable to make it malleable for specific fleet numbers, because that would be prone to exploit. So to make sure that no one gets a free and easy ride, they picked what they called a 'happy medium' which, unfortunately, is not happy for smaller fleets who must do the workload required of larger fleets that have nothing to do with them. You are seeing the result of this reality in dissatisfaction of smaller fleets.
Seriously, let's drop the oft-battered assumption that everybody who can't conceivably advance in the FA system (because they are not droids and have, GASP, Things To Do With Living other than grind on Star Trek Online for the next three years) are just whiners who want to race to Tier V in 3 weeks. Let's start having a level, intelligent understanding of the faults and advantages inherent in this system, and what can be done to make it fair and balanced for everyone who dreams of reaching a goal through hard but rewarding work?
Can we do that?
Are we allowed to talk like that in a forum? Or do we just have to keep half-hearing each other and snarking about their positions?
Can't we all just get along, bro?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
But there is an end in sight, contrary to the part of your rant I highlighted in red. Eventually, your fleet (and mine) will achieve Tier V, which will actually feel like a major accomplishment, which is something that few games allow players to do these days.
Why?
Because the "instant gratification" crowd is being catered to in every game.
Let me ask you a question. Given the size of your fleet, and comparing that to the capabilities of smaller fleets, what if you had attained a T5 Starbase in just two or three weeks? What would you be saying, or more likely, be complaining about then?
"It's too easy!" "It's too fast!" "No challenge!" And, ultimately, "I don't have anything to work toward or do."
Why should a small fleet, with perhaps 2 or 3 active players, be able to attain a major achievement in the game quickly?
Sorry, this is an MMO. I've seen the entire genre turned upside-down because so many casual and solo players expect everything to be easily attained. I'm glad this one system has been different.
And that's ultimately what I see here. The vast majority of the complaining hasn't been about the desire to have a high tier starbase - indeed, most appear to want one. The complaints center around the fact that they can't get one fast or easily enough. That's the problem with the instant gratification mentality, which has been destroying the MMORPG genre for years.
I see your point on instant gratification......but dont make the game a grind to get a reward, allow me different ways to get marks etc. Right now, i have to do the same missions over and over again to get the desired Marks and we have three different kinds now.
Think of Cartman killing sheep in WoW over and over again in his mother's basement from Southpark....that is where STO is going
Think of Cartman killing sheep in WoW over and over again in his mother's basement from Southpark....that is where STO is going
Thx
Locutus
Thank you for the funny memory. After all, how DO you kill that which has no life?
I actually see interacting with the current iteration of grind-systems as 'Watering the plants'. Haven't done them in a few weeks, but I found myself doing just enough to earn the marks I needed to start off the timers. Then I'd stop playing for a day or two...come back, toss in more resources to start the timers again..leave for another two days...
Eventually this acted like a smoker's patch, weaning me off of actually spending time to play STO. I feel it's why I stopped just logging in altogether, save to make sure my fleet's projects were still progressing (It's stagnated at the Tier III Starbase upgrade project. Fleet Marks are the big hurdle, I suspect similar to what you've found).
More avenues to earn a fair number of Fleet Marks aside from DOff reports and the same repeatables would be very welcome considering the demand on marks has increased. Not sure what Cryptic would be willing to do though; it seems to me like they operate as if they're afraid the hardcore grinders are going to completely unbalance the entire game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
By that logic we should have t5 take 12 years, just think of the feeling of accomplisment !!111
Of course I want instant and constant gratification - this is my recreational time.
When did that even become in question. I am here to have fun, not have fun later.
The reason you need to repeat content is so it lasts longer, time is money and so it makes total sense from a developer standpoint, just don't get it twisted and think it benefits the playerbase.
Anyway post season 7 about the first week my fleet seemed like business as usual but eventually it seemed everyone stopped contributing dilithium.
I guess we have somewhere around 10-20 people online at anytime during the day, don't know how many in-active.
Probably a combination of dil per zen dropping and watching everyone else not contribute in addition to less in-come and more costs.
We do get the occasional guy throwing in 2000 dil once a week though but overall a near halt yes.
What I don't get is why we have to grind the same relatively small collection of missions over and over for stuff like fleet marks. They may not be all that quick with new mission content, but there's a good deal of existing missions out there. What about all of the "episode" missions, for example?
If you expect long-term grind out of me, you need to keep me entertained, and no, expecting me to repeat "No Win Scenario" 10,000 ****ing times is NOT a sincere effort at keeping me entertained.
You are correct in one point, we will achieve Tier V in both Fed and KDF Starbase. My fleet is too large and remains engaged and active enough that for us, it is a legitimate and realistic goal with a realistic chance of achievement.
But fleets like Jupiter Force, and there may be as many as a dozen in the whole game, are the exceptions, not the rule.
I have no problem with the time gate nature of Starbases or other systems like the reputation system, nor do I have a problem with associating a high cost per se, my concern more specific to the unrealistic access to the various currencies needed by a player to be engaged in the numerous (and increasing number) systems in the game. A player is now gated by time horizontally by each individual system that requires a specific time period to complete a project, but is also gated by time vertically by having to spend time accumulating resources for each individual system independently. There is no functional way in the game to play STO at a reasonable pace and be engaged in the multiple systems simultaneously.
That's a legit problem because it's hard to keep folks motivated when major aspects of what Cryptic advertises as their primary content systems are disconnected from a players gaming experience. What good are Starbases at end game if 99% of the community doesn't have a realistic shot at advancing the system in a way it is even eventually achievable.
I find it hard to believe Starbase Tier V will ever mean anything in STO if only a tiny number of people are in a fleet with one, meaning once built it won't have value for Cryptic to spend resources building more content options for that tiny dedicated Tier V group.
So yeah for me, I'll have a Tier V Starbase, and it will mean nothing because not enough others will have one to inspire Cryptic to develop end game content for the Starbase system. That would suck to work so hard for what amounts to no rewards beyond access to a few more item options. I think most people understand a Tier V Starbase could be a great mechanism for content, particularly via the Foundry, but that doesn't happen if the Starbase is a system that can't be realistically completed by the majority of players.
And with fleets having caps on number of characters, it's not like Cryptic is encouraging large fleets to soak up members of small fleets, indeed there is no evidence Cryptic is encouraging this except via mechanics that make small fleets unlikely to ever achieve the end game anytime in the next calendar year.
I Cryptic likely knew they were going to upset a lot of veteran players with and around Season 7 by the systems and recycling decisions they made: The revamp of the STF system that gutted the earnings of STF vets; the redress of old STF content for a third iteration (akin to microwaving leftovers for a second time); tightening access to dilithium while expanding expenditures of dilithium (evidenced in the tanking of the dilithium market despite the release of shiny zen toys like the Vesta line). These are not changes which would endear themselves to veteran players, but would be the norm to new players with no concept of ye olde days..
Third iteration? Oh no, STFs are actually on the seventh version.
V1: Anti-Proton Weaponry added to STO.
V2: AP [Borg] Weaponry First added
V3: Random Drops to Marks of Valor. Variety of [Borg] Weaponry added (including the famous [Borg] Bat'leth to the Mark of Valor Store.
V4: Marks to Emblems
V5: Borg Sets Added
V6: STF F2P Revamp (Bye Bye long version)
V7: STFs go from Drops to Reputation
STFs gotten more used than a hankerchief. :rolleyes:
The people who do not alt in s7 do not know what they are doing.
One hour a day is all that is required per character to get to the romulan/omega/dilithium limits.
If you have 3 hrs of gametime per night utilize 3 alts.
If you have one hour, get out your wallet.
Third iteration? Oh no, STFs are actually on the seventh version.
V1: Anti-Proton Weaponry added to STO.
V2: AP [Borg] Weaponry First added
V3: Random Drops to Marks of Valor. Variety of [Borg] Weaponry added (including the famous [Borg] Bat'leth to the Mark of Valor Store.
V4: Marks to Emblems
V5: Borg Sets Added
V6: STF F2P Revamp (Bye Bye long version)
V7: STFs go from Drops to Reputation
STFs gotten more used than a hankerchief. :rolleyes:
Mm, thanks for breaking it down a bit more. I was thinking more globally as far as the earnings and currency system, but yeah, STFs are pretty much STO's eternally-regurgitated meal which are "new" to newbies only.
I pine for the day when we have STFs that don't involve the Borg, or regurgitated Borg content.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
You are correct in one point, we will achieve Tier V in both Fed and KDF Starbase. My fleet is too large and remains engaged and active enough that for us, it is a legitimate and realistic goal with a realistic chance of achievement.
But fleets like Jupiter Force, and there may be as many as a dozen in the whole game, are the exceptions, not the rule.
I have no problem with the time gate nature of Starbases or other systems like the reputation system, nor do I have a problem with associating a high cost per se, my concern more specific to the unrealistic access to the various currencies needed by a player to be engaged in the numerous (and increasing number) systems in the game. A player is now gated by time horizontally by each individual system that requires a specific time period to complete a project, but is also gated by time vertically by having to spend time accumulating resources for each individual system independently. There is no functional way in the game to play STO at a reasonable pace and be engaged in the multiple systems simultaneously.
That's a legit problem because it's hard to keep folks motivated when major aspects of what Cryptic advertises as their primary content systems are disconnected from a players gaming experience. What good are Starbases at end game if 99% of the community doesn't have a realistic shot at advancing the system in a way it is even eventually achievable.
I find it hard to believe Starbase Tier V will ever mean anything in STO if only a tiny number of people are in a fleet with one, meaning once built it won't have value for Cryptic to spend resources building more content options for that tiny dedicated Tier V group.
So yeah for me, I'll have a Tier V Starbase, and it will mean nothing because not enough others will have one to inspire Cryptic to develop end game content for the Starbase system. That would suck to work so hard for what amounts to no rewards beyond access to a few more item options. I think most people understand a Tier V Starbase could be a great mechanism for content, particularly via the Foundry, but that doesn't happen if the Starbase is a system that can't be realistically completed by the majority of players.
And with fleets having caps on number of characters, it's not like Cryptic is encouraging large fleets to soak up members of small fleets, indeed there is no evidence Cryptic is encouraging this except via mechanics that make small fleets unlikely to ever achieve the end game anytime in the next calendar year.
Well 1 thing is for sure - in 2013 you might be able to count the number of KDF tier 5 bases on 1 hand - that's max!
No-one has really answered the MAIN issue - is Fleet gear better than Omega or Stuff on the exchange?
A fleet of 50 people - that gear will end up costing 100x the Omega gear or Exchange gear - so is it 100x better?
Usually if someone is gour to put 1000 hours into building a base for gear they would expect vastly superior gear than 100 hours of STF/Romulan play
SO WHY WASTE TIME ON STARBASES?? - Is the gear 10x better at least??
And if it is Inferior to the new top end Omega gear - then building bases now is Insane!!
$20 million EC for a Purple MII Phaser DHC Accx3
250k in contraband = 2000 dith so for 1 million ec that's 8000 dith
so for that weapon that 80,000 dilth
Now how much do the T5 elite space weapons cost?
Well input costs in EC to get to Tier 5 (opportunity costs of not selling doffs + commodities) is easily $20 billion ec and 25,000,000 dilthium
so for a fleet of 100 people that is $200 million ec each + 250,000 dilth
Not to mention hundred if not 1000's of hours grinding Fleet marks
So is the gear worth the effort? I better make you invisible or pretty close!!
And that is with 100 active people - not the 25 that were used in the Cryptic's calculations
Actually, your OP was asking us about our fleet bases and whether they've ground to a halt.
But to address your question..my fleet's gotten Elite Fleet weaponry. Like so many things in STO, it is more efficient depending on the situation you're using it in. A mkXII Omega Autocarbine is of course going to rip into Borg, but for anything else it shouldn't be as efficient. You'd expect a more general-purpose weapon like an elite fleet weapon to supersede it.
Of course, you may see more value in the Omega gear as a full set, passives and set bonuses and all, which could mitigate the dip in effectiveness compared to fleet equipment. I don't have raw numbers to back that up, just general feedback from the numerous other threads I've seen asking this same 'what is better' question.
The Acc3 modifier for weapons I've also heard from other posters as not really being worth it compared to direct crit modifiers, claiming that the spillover from ACC can't really match it. Again, no numbers; smarter people than I should be able to tell you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
The denigration of players who find fault with the Fleet Advancement system as being 'not fast enough' is a common refrain of the 'suck it up, princess' crowd.
'No end in sight' means there is no visible conclusion with the means available, it doesn't mean 'It is impossible for you'. Spit in the direction of Jupiter in space and your spit-wad will get there...someday... For small fleets, this 'no end in sight' is a harsh reality that tells them that there is an end, but they cannot and, realistically, will not see it.
If you take in as many arguments against the FA system as you suggest, you'd notice that the primary frustration is not a demand to make things 'easy', but to make them 'fair'. A larger fleet with a vast resource pool has a simpler time at accomplishing a goal-oriented system like the FA than a fleet comprised of a handful of five, six, seven friends. The FA system is a flat, fixed resource sink for them all. This is not efficient because it assumes that every fleet in STO is the same exact size with the same number of resources (the devs claim 25 active people). People who will never tire, and who see the system as rewarding enough to continue for however many months it takes for them to get what they want.
A flat rate of project cost is at the heart of the problem and Cryptic is unable to make it malleable for specific fleet numbers, because that would be prone to exploit. So to make sure that no one gets a free and easy ride, they picked what they called a 'happy medium' which, unfortunately, is not happy for smaller fleets who must do the workload required of larger fleets that have nothing to do with them. You are seeing the result of this reality in dissatisfaction of smaller fleets.
Seriously, let's drop the oft-battered assumption that everybody who can't conceivably advance in the FA system (because they are not droids and have, GASP, Things To Do With Living other than grind on Star Trek Online for the next three years) are just whiners who want to race to Tier V in 3 weeks. Let's start having a level, intelligent understanding of the faults and advantages inherent in this system, and what can be done to make it fair and balanced for everyone who dreams of reaching a goal through hard but rewarding work?
Can we do that?
Are we allowed to talk like that in a forum? Or do we just have to keep half-hearing each other and snarking about their positions?
Can't we all just get along, bro?
The concept and definition of "fairness"? Wow, that could get ugly.... :eek:
We aren't assigned to fleets. Players join fleets purely by personal choice. With the power to choose comes responsibility for the advantages and disadvantages of the choices we make. That's the "fairness" of reality.
Again, this is a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG, not a single-player game, or a shooter, or an RTS. There are certain features and expectations that go along with being an MMO.
One of those is the expectation that an MMO will, in some way, leverage the fact that it allows a large, persistent virtual society. Too many of them have become single-player games that you just happen to play alongside others.
FA is a group goal. If a player chooses to solo, or be a part of a very small group, then they should expect to take the disadvantages with the advantages of doing so in what should be a game designed with a massive population in mind.
Large fleets should have an advantage. That's actually fair.
The system is still fairly new, and I'm sure will have things added to it in the future. Just as in real life, fleets should only buy what they can afford. If that's a Tier 3 starbase, then that's it - stop there. Perhaps Cryptic will work toward each tier being a bit more expandable, with the higher tiers still offering the greatest potential.
But there is an end in sight, contrary to the part of your rant I highlighted in red. Eventually, your fleet (and mine) will achieve Tier V, which will actually feel like a major accomplishment, which is something that few games allow players to do these days.
Why?
Because the "instant gratification" crowd is being catered to in every game.
Let me ask you a question. Given the size of your fleet, and comparing that to the capabilities of smaller fleets, what if you had attained a T5 Starbase in just two or three weeks? What would you be saying, or more likely, be complaining about then?
"It's too easy!" "It's too fast!" "No challenge!" And, ultimately, "I don't have anything to work toward or do."
Why should a small fleet, with perhaps 2 or 3 active players, be able to attain a major achievement in the game quickly?
Sorry, this is an MMO. I've seen the entire genre turned upside-down because so many casual and solo players expect everything to be easily attained. I'm glad this one system has been different.
And that's ultimately what I see here. The vast majority of the complaining hasn't been about the desire to have a high tier starbase - indeed, most appear to want one. The complaints center around the fact that they can't get one fast or easily enough. That's the problem with the instant gratification mentality, which has been destroying the MMORPG genre for years.
I am almost certain that there is something betweem instant and years.
Instant is too fast, but taking a year/years is just too long.
If it was a fun method, then small fleets would still eventually get there.
But a boring, expensive, and months long grind is no way to entertain the masses.
Comments
To that sentiment, I respond, from the bottom of my heart, KISS MY GRITS.
But there is a small percentage of people (lets give them the name "mark") out of the thousands that quit and start the game anew day in and day out, that will.
Take that percentage and times it by what they buy and times that by the number of days in a quarter. Cryptic takes that and gives it to pwe and pwe shares that with its shareholder.
Rinse repeat.
This isn't rocket science.
We've been a fleet in STO since launch day. The 120 number is just people who aren't active lately, haven't come back, etc. Especially based on a huge jump we had from when F2P went active, getting tons of people who joined the fleet as first-time players and for whatever reason decided not to become dedicated or consistent players. Some log back in months later to see what new content's been added. Some don't.
Pretty sure there're plenty of old fleets with tons of unremoved players on their rosters after 2.8 years.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
After 10 years of failing mmo subs and trying to cater and retain players the f2p model is a cure for that.
Player retention is important. Players who are personally invested in a game are more likely to buy. The longer they play, the more invested in the game they are and it would take a major TRIBBLE up (like Season 7) to get them to divest and leave. You can see how powerful that is by all the apologias offered up in Cryptic's defense by some people who feel they are too invested to just walk away.
I find that hard to believe. Marks? Maybe. Tau Dewa patrol can be easily finished in 10-15 min by spamming the Acamar patrol with a run of KASE with optional for omega. But dil? Unlikely unless you're a tacscort to blow through defera/sh'mar/traelus dailies while farming contraband with KDF marauding assignments to fuel the turn in on all of the characters.
It seems this is the norm? So many fleets with members that are there only in name and not active.
I wonder just how many people Since just before season 7 and then for sure after season 7 just said F this and don't bother logging it more than a couple times and don't bother doing anything with the fleet.
So major Questions?
1. Are elite fleet gear/weapons better than Omega/Honor guard or what you can get on the exchange?
And if not - why do people even bother with a Starbase? As all it is is a store? It seems the imputs that a player would put into building a base up to Tier 5 would be 10- 100x the cost of those elite Purple accx3 weapons on the exchange
So what is the purpose of the Starbase? And T5 offers like 1 decent ship? Why pay Hundreds of dollars when lock-box or new C-store ships will be better?
Can the larger fleet members explain just why they are building their leader his sky castle?
I doubt the assertion that they don't have an interest in player retention as well.
I do, however, believe it's not their priority.
Cryptic likely knew they were going to upset a lot of veteran players with and around Season 7 by the systems and recycling decisions they made: The revamp of the STF system that gutted the earnings of STF vets; the redress of old STF content for a third iteration (akin to microwaving leftovers for a second time); tightening access to dilithium while expanding expenditures of dilithium (evidenced in the tanking of the dilithium market despite the release of shiny zen toys like the Vesta line). These are not changes which would endear themselves to veteran players, but would be the norm to new players with no concept of ye olde days.
If Cryptic held player retention and the grandfathering in of older players in high regard, there are plenty of avenues they could have taken. I don't feel they have. I feel Season 7 as a mix of hopeful if underwhelming play content and frustratingly regurgitated, cheap busywork and grind. Therefore I've been taking an extended break from STO to sniff out SW:TOR (which has an inferior F2P model to STO, by the way. They treat their F2P players as 3rd-worlders and barely hide the lack of respect for freeloaders). I wouldn't be surprised if others have roamed as well, having lost that spark that kept them going.
The F2P model for a game to survive does not necessarily call for player retention if those subbers aren't going to throw money out to feed and sustain the game. Quick bites from microtransactions are more valued than subscriptions. Player retention is key for a subscription model, where the priorities of the income channels (subscription and microtransactions) are reversed and primary income is from keeping people playing, making their subscription 'worth it' to renew or extend.
Subscriptions matter. They're big cookies. But free players without subscriptions have to be milked as well and their priority over those paid into the system with time and subscription is Cryptic's focus I think.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
But there is an end in sight, contrary to the part of your rant I highlighted in red. Eventually, your fleet (and mine) will achieve Tier V, which will actually feel like a major accomplishment, which is something that few games allow players to do these days.
Why?
Because the "instant gratification" crowd is being catered to in every game.
Let me ask you a question. Given the size of your fleet, and comparing that to the capabilities of smaller fleets, what if you had attained a T5 Starbase in just two or three weeks? What would you be saying, or more likely, be complaining about then?
"It's too easy!" "It's too fast!" "No challenge!" And, ultimately, "I don't have anything to work toward or do."
Why should a small fleet, with perhaps 2 or 3 active players, be able to attain a major achievement in the game quickly?
Sorry, this is an MMO. I've seen the entire genre turned upside-down because so many casual and solo players expect everything to be easily attained. I'm glad this one system has been different.
And that's ultimately what I see here. The vast majority of the complaining hasn't been about the desire to have a high tier starbase - indeed, most appear to want one. The complaints center around the fact that they can't get one fast or easily enough. That's the problem with the instant gratification mentality, which has been destroying the MMORPG genre for years.
The denigration of players who find fault with the Fleet Advancement system as being 'not fast enough' is a common refrain of the 'suck it up, princess' crowd.
'No end in sight' means there is no visible conclusion with the means available, it doesn't mean 'It is impossible for you'. Spit in the direction of Jupiter in space and your spit-wad will get there...someday... For small fleets, this 'no end in sight' is a harsh reality that tells them that there is an end, but they cannot and, realistically, will not see it.
If you take in as many arguments against the FA system as you suggest, you'd notice that the primary frustration is not a demand to make things 'easy', but to make them 'fair'. A larger fleet with a vast resource pool has a simpler time at accomplishing a goal-oriented system like the FA than a fleet comprised of a handful of five, six, seven friends. The FA system is a flat, fixed resource sink for them all. This is not efficient because it assumes that every fleet in STO is the same exact size with the same number of resources (the devs claim 25 active people). People who will never tire, and who see the system as rewarding enough to continue for however many months it takes for them to get what they want.
A flat rate of project cost is at the heart of the problem and Cryptic is unable to make it malleable for specific fleet numbers, because that would be prone to exploit. So to make sure that no one gets a free and easy ride, they picked what they called a 'happy medium' which, unfortunately, is not happy for smaller fleets who must do the workload required of larger fleets that have nothing to do with them. You are seeing the result of this reality in dissatisfaction of smaller fleets.
Seriously, let's drop the oft-battered assumption that everybody who can't conceivably advance in the FA system (because they are not droids and have, GASP, Things To Do With Living other than grind on Star Trek Online for the next three years) are just whiners who want to race to Tier V in 3 weeks. Let's start having a level, intelligent understanding of the faults and advantages inherent in this system, and what can be done to make it fair and balanced for everyone who dreams of reaching a goal through hard but rewarding work?
Can we do that?
Are we allowed to talk like that in a forum? Or do we just have to keep half-hearing each other and snarking about their positions?
Can't we all just get along, bro?
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
I see your point on instant gratification......but dont make the game a grind to get a reward, allow me different ways to get marks etc. Right now, i have to do the same missions over and over again to get the desired Marks and we have three different kinds now.
Think of Cartman killing sheep in WoW over and over again in his mother's basement from Southpark....that is where STO is going
Thx
Locutus
Delirium Tremens
Tier 4 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy
http://dtfleet.com/
Thank you for the funny memory. After all, how DO you kill that which has no life?
I actually see interacting with the current iteration of grind-systems as 'Watering the plants'. Haven't done them in a few weeks, but I found myself doing just enough to earn the marks I needed to start off the timers. Then I'd stop playing for a day or two...come back, toss in more resources to start the timers again..leave for another two days...
Eventually this acted like a smoker's patch, weaning me off of actually spending time to play STO. I feel it's why I stopped just logging in altogether, save to make sure my fleet's projects were still progressing (It's stagnated at the Tier III Starbase upgrade project. Fleet Marks are the big hurdle, I suspect similar to what you've found).
More avenues to earn a fair number of Fleet Marks aside from DOff reports and the same repeatables would be very welcome considering the demand on marks has increased. Not sure what Cryptic would be willing to do though; it seems to me like they operate as if they're afraid the hardcore grinders are going to completely unbalance the entire game.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Of course I want instant and constant gratification - this is my recreational time.
When did that even become in question. I am here to have fun, not have fun later.
The reason you need to repeat content is so it lasts longer, time is money and so it makes total sense from a developer standpoint, just don't get it twisted and think it benefits the playerbase.
Anyway post season 7 about the first week my fleet seemed like business as usual but eventually it seemed everyone stopped contributing dilithium.
I guess we have somewhere around 10-20 people online at anytime during the day, don't know how many in-active.
Probably a combination of dil per zen dropping and watching everyone else not contribute in addition to less in-come and more costs.
We do get the occasional guy throwing in 2000 dil once a week though but overall a near halt yes.
If you expect long-term grind out of me, you need to keep me entertained, and no, expecting me to repeat "No Win Scenario" 10,000 ****ing times is NOT a sincere effort at keeping me entertained.
You are correct in one point, we will achieve Tier V in both Fed and KDF Starbase. My fleet is too large and remains engaged and active enough that for us, it is a legitimate and realistic goal with a realistic chance of achievement.
But fleets like Jupiter Force, and there may be as many as a dozen in the whole game, are the exceptions, not the rule.
I have no problem with the time gate nature of Starbases or other systems like the reputation system, nor do I have a problem with associating a high cost per se, my concern more specific to the unrealistic access to the various currencies needed by a player to be engaged in the numerous (and increasing number) systems in the game. A player is now gated by time horizontally by each individual system that requires a specific time period to complete a project, but is also gated by time vertically by having to spend time accumulating resources for each individual system independently. There is no functional way in the game to play STO at a reasonable pace and be engaged in the multiple systems simultaneously.
That's a legit problem because it's hard to keep folks motivated when major aspects of what Cryptic advertises as their primary content systems are disconnected from a players gaming experience. What good are Starbases at end game if 99% of the community doesn't have a realistic shot at advancing the system in a way it is even eventually achievable.
I find it hard to believe Starbase Tier V will ever mean anything in STO if only a tiny number of people are in a fleet with one, meaning once built it won't have value for Cryptic to spend resources building more content options for that tiny dedicated Tier V group.
So yeah for me, I'll have a Tier V Starbase, and it will mean nothing because not enough others will have one to inspire Cryptic to develop end game content for the Starbase system. That would suck to work so hard for what amounts to no rewards beyond access to a few more item options. I think most people understand a Tier V Starbase could be a great mechanism for content, particularly via the Foundry, but that doesn't happen if the Starbase is a system that can't be realistically completed by the majority of players.
And with fleets having caps on number of characters, it's not like Cryptic is encouraging large fleets to soak up members of small fleets, indeed there is no evidence Cryptic is encouraging this except via mechanics that make small fleets unlikely to ever achieve the end game anytime in the next calendar year.
Rules of Acquisition at Priority One
Third iteration? Oh no, STFs are actually on the seventh version.
V1: Anti-Proton Weaponry added to STO.
V2: AP [Borg] Weaponry First added
V3: Random Drops to Marks of Valor. Variety of [Borg] Weaponry added (including the famous [Borg] Bat'leth to the Mark of Valor Store.
V4: Marks to Emblems
V5: Borg Sets Added
V6: STF F2P Revamp (Bye Bye long version)
V7: STFs go from Drops to Reputation
STFs gotten more used than a hankerchief. :rolleyes:
LOL at 3 being considered as "using alts".
BUT
There's a ton of reasons BEYOND game issues that may be causing it.
First and foremost, It's the holiday season. Life has PLENTY of distractions this time of year.
As far as game issues are concerned, Yes, I feel that there are several factors contributing to
the slowing of fleet starbase progression.
BUT
And I was thinking about this the other day too, this isn't necessarily such a BAD THING.
So starbases projects take longer, SO WHAT ?
Who says everything has to happen all at once?
What's the big rush?
There's a whole lotta nothin waiting for us if we fly through it fast TBH.
A fleet of 50 people - that gear will end up costing 100x the Omega gear or Exchange gear - so is it 100x better?
Usually if someone is gour to put 1000 hours into building a base for gear they would expect vastly superior gear than 100 hours of STF/Romulan play
SO WHY WASTE TIME ON STARBASES?? - Is the gear 10x better at least??
And if it is Inferior to the new top end Omega gear - then building bases now is Insane!!
$20 million EC for a Purple MII Phaser DHC Accx3
250k in contraband = 2000 dith so for 1 million ec that's 8000 dith
so for that weapon that 80,000 dilth
Now how much do the T5 elite space weapons cost?
Well input costs in EC to get to Tier 5 (opportunity costs of not selling doffs + commodities) is easily $20 billion ec and 25,000,000 dilthium
so for a fleet of 100 people that is $200 million ec each + 250,000 dilth
Not to mention hundred if not 1000's of hours grinding Fleet marks
So is the gear worth the effort? It better make you invisible or pretty close!!
And that is with 100 active people - not the 25 that were used in the Cryptic's calculations
Mm, thanks for breaking it down a bit more. I was thinking more globally as far as the earnings and currency system, but yeah, STFs are pretty much STO's eternally-regurgitated meal which are "new" to newbies only.
I pine for the day when we have STFs that don't involve the Borg, or regurgitated Borg content.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Well 1 thing is for sure - in 2013 you might be able to count the number of KDF tier 5 bases on 1 hand - that's max!
Actually, your OP was asking us about our fleet bases and whether they've ground to a halt.
But to address your question..my fleet's gotten Elite Fleet weaponry. Like so many things in STO, it is more efficient depending on the situation you're using it in. A mkXII Omega Autocarbine is of course going to rip into Borg, but for anything else it shouldn't be as efficient. You'd expect a more general-purpose weapon like an elite fleet weapon to supersede it.
Of course, you may see more value in the Omega gear as a full set, passives and set bonuses and all, which could mitigate the dip in effectiveness compared to fleet equipment. I don't have raw numbers to back that up, just general feedback from the numerous other threads I've seen asking this same 'what is better' question.
The Acc3 modifier for weapons I've also heard from other posters as not really being worth it compared to direct crit modifiers, claiming that the spillover from ACC can't really match it. Again, no numbers; smarter people than I should be able to tell you.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
The concept and definition of "fairness"? Wow, that could get ugly.... :eek:
We aren't assigned to fleets. Players join fleets purely by personal choice. With the power to choose comes responsibility for the advantages and disadvantages of the choices we make. That's the "fairness" of reality.
Again, this is a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG, not a single-player game, or a shooter, or an RTS. There are certain features and expectations that go along with being an MMO.
One of those is the expectation that an MMO will, in some way, leverage the fact that it allows a large, persistent virtual society. Too many of them have become single-player games that you just happen to play alongside others.
FA is a group goal. If a player chooses to solo, or be a part of a very small group, then they should expect to take the disadvantages with the advantages of doing so in what should be a game designed with a massive population in mind.
Large fleets should have an advantage. That's actually fair.
The system is still fairly new, and I'm sure will have things added to it in the future. Just as in real life, fleets should only buy what they can afford. If that's a Tier 3 starbase, then that's it - stop there. Perhaps Cryptic will work toward each tier being a bit more expandable, with the higher tiers still offering the greatest potential.
I am almost certain that there is something betweem instant and years.
Instant is too fast, but taking a year/years is just too long.
If it was a fun method, then small fleets would still eventually get there.
But a boring, expensive, and months long grind is no way to entertain the masses.