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Compilation of why cruisers are UP

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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    This is the crux of the problem and also why DHC's are the only game in town - right now the spike damage is (nearly) the only thing that can break the inevitable stalemate between any two ships that are not escorts.

    Actually, most of the Escort guys I know have pumped up their resistance to damage. Between their speed, skills and resistance. My ship barely scratches them (mostly bleedthrough) and easily parse and avg of 4-6k. The only time I really put a hurting on them is when I Borg tractor them.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Which STF are you doing that in and what are the other ships like?

    If other people do lower DPS that you do in the STF's, you actually get more opportunities to increase the parse average by have more time in the mission doing damage. I have noticed that when I do less dps in a mission the other guys in my group go up by even more. The escorts I STF with do 10.5k in KASE while my Fleet Excel Engi' does between 4-6k.

    Also, when I PvP with my friends in their escorts, they can actually resist most of my damage coming in, so my 4-6k parsed barely scratches them.

    Have you tried your build in PvP??

    I normally fly with a premade team, and we tend to finish most STFs with at least 7 minutes buffer for optional, so no, not really much more opportunity to do damage.

    PVP is a different theme, because I dont play alone with a cruiser and we tend to leave pvp aside, because we cant make a premade team. I would also change my lt.cmd to sci and fly with more aux and a less weapons power to heal more efficiently.

    But in 1vs1 I can hold my ground against every escort. If they werent that fast when running away, I could destroy some of them too.
    But since pvp is more teambased then pve, you have to take a supporting role with a cruiser. And thats intended!

    Ah yeah and I fly with 4 anti borg phaser ba + 4 mk xi rare phaser ba, so no high-end weapons.

    My Tac can do up to 13k DPS (normally around 11k) while my cruiser can do 6-8k. As an engineer.
    [quoteAnd if you say you have problems with a cruiser against a normal cube, then your built is... well just wrong wrong wrong.

    Either there is something wrong with my english or your reading. I said that cruiser and sci got most damage when it was ship vs cube without healing. DPS and native defence (speed tanking) of an escort were better "defense" then additional hull/shield regen of cruiser and sci.

    In point 2 it was "use the ship as good as I can" with "all tactics allowed" (including running and regenerating) while trying to kill as many Borg as fast as possible. Ok, it was sci/cruiser not eng/cruiser but still cruiser due to lack of manoeuvrability got the wors of it when it ended in the middle of Borg ball. Could not manoeuver fast enough and leave engagement and got blown to bits. Sci was better due to manoeuvrability and ability to outregenerate shield strippers (yeah, TSS3 with Energy Siphon blows) but was unable to kill the Borg fast enough. Again escort DPS and speed were the best offense - it was able to engage and disengage at will without any problems and able to keep itself alive with it.

    And mind it that I was testing RA1 in Mirror Star Cruiser, not VA in sci Odyssey. And yeah, it was most likely not the best test ever, but it was, I think, how your common folk feels the ships when it comes to possibilities and endresult of PvE engagements with escort vs cruiser.[/QUOTE]


    I flew an assault cruiser before getting the Ody. Little less DPS, nothing else.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    I showed the base power values, my weapon power sits at around 123 before engaging enemies and jumps over the 125 mark before my EPtX cycle starts. I also found using Aux2Bat destroyed all my capacity to heal even while using EPtA instead of EPtS so I soon ditched those in favour of a system that works for me.

    I also use all the armour consoles because I can already turn well enough to keep my weapons on target and I value any seconds of extra life I can get facing borg.

    I think I see what's wrong. You are wanting to play a middle of the road style cruiser. You want to fly safely and yet complain you can't do good DPS? It doesn't work that way. If you want to do damage you WILL have to take some risks.

    The launcher doesn't want to work at the moment, but going from memory:

    From my Engi cruiser

    Base Weapon Power: 123
    EPtW: around 25ish
    Aux2B: average around 20
    Omega Weapon Proc: 10

    Total power to weapons: 178

    Power consumption:
    5 x BA: 60
    KCB: 10

    Total power used: 60

    So when I fire my 6 energy weapons I end up with an effective 110 power to weapons, with your base starting weapon power being lower you will easily see it get to 80 or so before FAW or BO. Those extra 20 weapon power points matter. I do not count the engi energy powers because they don't have anything like constant uptime. If you want to do good damage you need to up your weapon power.

    I will again say you have too many armor consoles. If you want to do more damage you will have to find a way to live with less armor consoles and use those slots to up your damage. Use things like the Temporal console, the romulan console, the borg console, etc.

    As far as using Aux2B, you don't mix it with EPtA. While your heals do take a hit their improved uptime means you actually get more healing.

    It all comes back to this: If you want to do more damage you can't expect to fly a safe, ultra defensive cruiser, you need to take risks. Keep in mind that my decidedly tactical minded cruiser is still far more durable than my escort.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I get down to 91 at worst post FAW and 86 during FAW. That said I do have a few tricks in my build to counter drain, I'm ok with the level of damage I deal as it is above average, I just wanted to know how he managed to do that much damage with en eng/cruiser.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    I get down to 91 at worst post FAW and 86 during FAW. That said I do have a few tricks in my build to counter drain, I'm ok with the level of damage I deal as it is above average, I just wanted to know how he managed to do that much damage with en eng/cruiser.

    That makes two of us. I have a few of my ships built for pure damage at the cost of tankiness, and the most I can ever pull out is 5250 DPS on a cruiser.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I wouldn't be suprised if he is measuring his DPS against targets with a few APBs from allies placed on them. Much easier to hit high DPS numbers in a well organized group than in PuGs.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    I wouldn't be suprised if he is measuring his DPS against targets with a few APBs from allies placed on them. Much easier to hit high DPS numbers in a well organized group than in PuGs.

    Best measure for DPS would your ship SOLO against fixed targets. Perfect controlled environment.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    I wouldn't be suprised if he is measuring his DPS against targets with a few APBs from allies placed on them. Much easier to hit high DPS numbers in a well organized group than in PuGs.

    Who depends on allied APBs ?

    I bring my own APO and APD.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Who depends on allied APBs ?

    I bring my own APO and APD.

    No one, but my APB increases everyone's damage. Yes even mine and yours typically by more than even APO does in STFs.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    No one, but my APB increases everyone's damage. Yes even mine and yours typically by more than even APO does in STFs.

    But it adds nothing to your durability. Since I slant my cruiser towards DPS I find the extra protection afforded by cycling APO and APD makes a huge difference... while simultaneously adding to my damage potential. The rest of the team will have to learn to live with providing their own attack pattern bonuses lol.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    APD is great, you just have to have aggro so you debuff the enemy for the team. That is, if there actually was a PvE content, where you could really need tanks.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    But it adds nothing to your durability. Since I slant my cruiser towards DPS I find the extra protection afforded by cycling APO and APD makes a huge difference... while simultaneously adding to my damage potential. The rest of the team will have to learn to live with providing their own attack pattern bonuses lol.

    This amuses me.

    I, the escort pilot packs APB because I don't need the defensive benefits of APO or APD typically.

    You, the cruiser pilot finds the extra protection from them to make a huge difference I'm assuming in the defensive department.

    That makes perfect sense to me!
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Delta is overall better. In PVE, escort outdps everything, thus tanks anyway (because majority of "cruiser-tanks" cannot hold agro), debuffin all targets that shoot on it. In PvP everyone does spam TT and clears the debuff, so at least the defensive portion remain.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    This amuses me.

    I, the escort pilot packs APB because I don't need the defensive benefits of APO or APD typically.

    You, the cruiser pilot finds the extra protection from them to make a huge difference I'm assuming in the defensive department.

    That makes perfect sense to me!

    It's kind of a paradox. With the speed bonuses and possible resistance capabilities out there, there are several escort players I know there that out resist damage more than a well built cruiser and have no need to boost their defense, namely the Fleet Defiant.

    Accounting from personal experience,I know that my Fleet Excel can barely scratch some of the escorts I spar with and I'm not exactly using bottom of the shelf weapons and consoles and builds out there, I'm sure that others can speak the same as well. The HEC is so much easier to damage stuff and almost as able to soak damage as my Fleet Excel'. The 10k or so hull difference and the extra crew don't seem to make as much of a difference as speed does in PvP. The idiom "speed is life" is a good idiom, but it seems to make more of a difference than other factors in STO space combat.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The idiom "speed is life" is a good idiom, but it seems to make more of a difference than other factors in STO space combat.

    I often find that cruiser pilots have a BAD tendency to sit still.... my Regent never stops moving.... EVER. I always have it moving as fast as its turning will allow. Escorts get a free 10%, but cruisers can also get some defense from movement.
  • momawmomaw Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I often find that cruiser pilots have a BAD tendency to sit still.... my Regent never stops moving.... EVER. I always have it moving as fast as its turning will allow. Escorts get a free 10%, but cruisers can also get some defense from movement.

    I'd just like to point out that the slower the turn rate, the greater the radius you must maintain in order to broadside a target, which directly translates into less damage dealt.

    My fleet corsair (base turn 8) runs beams, but thanks to the plasmonic leech I'm also running somewhere around 60 power to engines with only 25 invested, so it moves fast and turns easily. Good luck with that on Fed side.
  • stardestroyer001stardestroyer001 Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    What's wrong with sitting still? I'd rather be jamming the innate/boff/console activation buttons than lazily holding down the W/A/S/D keys and hoping the enemy fires on the shield facing I want them to.

    Not gonna happen. Although some crafty piloting is needed, it shouldn't be the primary concern when flying a cruiser. Your primary concerns should be healing teammates, and reallocating the shields to the correct facing (Tactical Team helps with this).
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  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    What's wrong with sitting still? I'd rather be jamming the innate/boff/console activation buttons than lazily holding down the W/A/S/D keys and hoping the enemy fires on the shield facing I want them to.

    Not gonna happen. Although some crafty piloting is needed, it shouldn't be the primary concern when flying a cruiser. Your primary concerns should be healing teammates, and reallocating the shields to the correct facing (Tactical Team helps with this).

    Your taking nearly double the damage that someone with a positive defense score takes on average over time.
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I often find that cruiser pilots have a BAD tendency to sit still.... my Regent never stops moving.... EVER. I always have it moving as fast as its turning will allow. Escorts get a free 10%, but cruisers can also get some defense from movement.

    I agree with you. My Fleet Excel' doesn't stop moving. I do an imitation of erratic maneuvering , using both forward and reverse directions. But even with that, and a fully loaded Starship Maneuvers skill, the speeds that the cruisers move doesn't grant them too defensive bonus. Cruisers still take a ton more damage per hit than their escort counterparts, more than the 10k-ish hull points can provide for.
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    What's wrong with sitting still? I'd rather be jamming the innate/boff/console activation buttons than lazily holding down the W/A/S/D keys and hoping the enemy fires on the shield facing I want them to.

    Not gonna happen. Although some crafty piloting is needed, it shouldn't be the primary concern when flying a cruiser. Your primary concerns should be healing teammates, and reallocating the shields to the correct facing (Tactical Team helps with this).

    There's a phrase that comes to mind when I read this post, "sitting duck".

    BTW, you can still hold down the "W/A/S/D" buttons and still use console abilities and the like.
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    momaw wrote: »
    I'd just like to point out that the slower the turn rate, the greater the radius you must maintain in order to broadside a target, which directly translates into less damage dealt.

    Good point.

    I usually need to slow down in a cruiser so I can make tighter turns and have more time on target. Stopping is probably a bad idea, but so is running full speed.
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Good point.

    I usually need to slow down in a cruiser so I can make tighter turns and have more time on target. Stopping is probably a bad idea, but so is running full speed.

    That's why I tend to throw my ships in reverse from time to time, it can change the degree of turn needed to stay in arc, especially the front mounted weapons.

    With the world of escort dominated PvP, you almost need to be able to run at full speed for a certain amount of time otherwise when you slow down its all to predictable. I'd love to be able to bring my Excel' back to an overall turn rate of more than 20 degrees per second at 100% throttle.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    momaw wrote: »

    My fleet corsair (base turn 8) runs beams, but thanks to the plasmonic leech I'm also running somewhere around 60 power to engines with only 25 invested, so it moves fast and turns easily. Good luck with that on Fed side.

    Unfortunately, our Cryptic overlords refuse to give us feddies the lolnergy console, so we do our turning the hard way, RCS consoles.

    As far having a wide turning radius goes, I don't feel it. But then I do run an Aux2B build, 2 RCS consoles, and lots of APO, so my turning is definitely not indicative of most pilot's personal experience
  • stardestroyer001stardestroyer001 Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    There's a phrase that comes to mind when I read this post, "sitting duck".

    BTW, you can still hold down the "W/A/S/D" buttons and still use console abilities and the like.

    I didn't say stopping the engines 100% of the time. I stop the ship when I need to focus on other aspects of the PVP match.

    Also, in support of the later comments, reversing the engines is a tactic I use as well. Many an escort pilot are befuddled by the sudden "disappearance" of my cruiser.

    My point was, flying the ship shouldn't be the main concern, it should be managing your own shield/hull and your teammates shields/hull. If you have such a focus on steering, there's a couple other games that focus just on piloting skill which might appeal to you.

    And no, I can't hold down the WASD keys and use console/boff/tray abilities. My keyboard only allows three to be held down. So if I'm heading, for example, 045 mark 45 (right and up), that only leaves me one button. In most cases, I need more (such as Alt+# for tray abilities).
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I didn't say stopping the engines 100% of the time. I stop the ship when I need to focus on other aspects of the PVP match.

    Also, in support of the later comments, reversing the engines is a tactic I use as well. Many an escort pilot are befuddled by the sudden "disappearance" of my cruiser.

    My point was, flying the ship shouldn't be the main concern, it should be managing your own shield/hull and your teammates shields/hull. If you have such a focus on steering, there's a couple other games that focus just on piloting skill which might appeal to you.

    And no, I can't hold down the WASD keys and use console/boff/tray abilities. My keyboard only allows three to be held down. So if I'm heading, for example, 045 mark 45 (right and up), that only leaves me one button. In most cases, I need more (such as Alt+# for tray abilities).

    Have you tried using the mouse for console/boff/tray abilities while steering? Thats what I tend to do.
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Auxiliary To Inertial Dampeners

    +Speed
    +Turn Rate
    +Kinetic Resist
    +Crew Resist
    +Crew Alive
    Immunity to Disable.

    On top of this you gain resistance to holds such as Tractor Beams.

    Pop Emergency Power to Auxiliary beforehand, and you won't have to worry about turning.

    Odyssey with 3-console, turning at 9.7 degree/sec. X2Damp at 58 Aux power jumped it to 12 degree/sec.

    At 91 Aux, it jumped to 15.4.

    Without the Chevron it should be at 23.4. That is extremely acceptable for a Cruiser.

    I have space for at least 1 X2Damp on all of my Cruisers, and I tank exceedingly well, barring dying from lag or lucky torp crits, as is known to happen at times.
  • stardestroyer001stardestroyer001 Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Have you tried using the mouse for console/boff/tray abilities while steering? Thats what I tend to do.

    I do that, when there's not enough room in the 10-button row for my 11th ability, and so on. However, my mouse-hand isn't that fast. :P
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  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,509 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I do that, when there's not enough room in the 10-button row for my 11th ability, and so on. However, my mouse-hand isn't that fast. :P

    Use the keypad.

    Strangely it seem the new arrival (Ambassador) has made this topic largely obsolete.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • th3xr34p3rth3xr34p3r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I do that, when there's not enough room in the 10-button row for my 11th ability, and so on. However, my mouse-hand isn't that fast. :P

    Tell me about it, 10 slots per row, 3 visible rows, and i game with a 17 button mouse (12 of which are on the thumb) so I have 2 that I don't use..would be nice to have an extra 2 slots per row..
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  • reynoldsxdreynoldsxd Member Posts: 977 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    questerius wrote: »
    Use the keypad.

    Strangely it seem the new arrival (Ambassador) has made this topic largely obsolete.

    no it has not.


    All the other cruisers still suffer badly, Beam arrays still remains horrible weapons, nothign has changed about the validity of our complains.


    If anything, cryptic is trolling even more by essentially saying: look, the excel and amabassador are dirt old ships, but we will have them outperform galaxys, sovereigns and star cruisers anyway.
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