How about a heavy beam array that can only be fitted to cruisers much like DHCs can only be fitted to escorts and battlecruisers, that gives beam arrays a firepower comparable or even superior to DHCs, but with a significant accuracy penalty? Battleship Cruisers wielding these will thus have the kind of firepower you'd expect from ships that are canonically classified as battleships, but they won't make Escorts irrelevant because trying to hit a target like an Escort with one would be an exercise like attempting to swat a fly with a hammer. Capital ships thus deliver pain to each other and to static targets like Cubes, but Escorts retain the superior ability to shoot down things that have somewhat more mobility.
Don't know about the "heavy beam array" (we do have DBB's), but I think there's a really good argument for turning high-end cruisers into cube-killer dreadnoughts.
However, we have the precedent set by the Defiant that skews what the role of an escort really ought to be. The thing was specifically designed to fight the Borg, whereas the cruisers aren't.
I really don't know what the secret sauce ought to be... I just know it isn't in there yet.
Maybe... maybe the trick is to give cruisers an advantage in weapon power (reduced power drain or reduced cooldowns, maybe?) but give escorts better crits?
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
However, we have the precedent set by the Defiant that skews what the role of an escort really ought to be. The thing was specifically designed to fight the Borg, whereas the cruisers aren't.
Not entirely accurate. The Defiant class was originally conceived of as part of the Anti-Borg task force (along with classes like the Akira and Steamrunner for example), but the first prototype failed miserably and was repurposed into a warship aimed for service on the Dominion front.
Not entirely accurate. The Defiant class was originally conceived of as part of the Anti-Borg task force (along with classes like the Akira and Steamrunner for example), but the first prototype failed miserably and was repurposed into a warship aimed for service on the Dominion front.
That is indeed true, but ask the average DS9 fan what the Defiant was built for and see what answer you get. It's so inextricably tied in with Sisko's history that everybody most remembers that it's supposed to be a Borg-killer.
I'm convinced the entire escort class was built around this design, that there is a persistent perception tied to this particular ship that it should out-fly and out-gun everything else Starfleet has, and that this perception has bled over in some degree into every other escort in the game.
IMO, the only reason we even have "tactical cruisers" in the game is because it's obvious even to Cryptic that Tac ships have a combat advantage and not everybody in a cruiser wants to play "healboat".
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
That is indeed true, but ask the average DS9 fan what the Defiant was built for and see what answer you get. It's so inextricably tied in with Sisko's history that everybody most remembers that it's supposed to be a Borg-killer.
I'm convinced the entire escort class was built around this design, that there is a persistent perception tied to this particular ship that it should out-fly and out-gun everything else Starfleet has, and that this perception has bled over in some degree into every other escort in the game.
IMO, the only reason we even have "tactical cruisers" in the game is because it's obvious even to Cryptic that Tac ships have a combat advantage and not everybody in a cruiser wants to play "healboat".
Conceptually, cruisers should have enough firepower to do significant damage to escorts, even a "healboat". I run a pretty good Fleet Excel' cruiser skill/boff/doff/build and the outcome is more or less a foregone conclusion with guys I spar with in their escorts. And I am at least a "fair" cruiser commander, if not better. Most of the fights tend to be full time heals while hoping that they make a big mistake and I get some really awesome crits at the same time.
Right now cruisers can only "add" to fellow escorts damage instead of being a real threat out on their own (the majority of the time). Cruisers need a small tweak in firepower/capability to fend off escorts. Not totally out-damage them, or even match, but enough to give escorts reason for concern when engaging cruisers.
I've always wondered why science ships should be the only ones to get built in Boff powers: perhaps cruisers would be made somewhat more potent with innate 'emergency/auxiliary power to...' abilities.
Perhaps an innate 'beam overload' (what's the point of having high level tac beam powers anyway? Escorts don't get much use out of them); or make overload an engineering power (overloading a weapon sounds like something an engineer might do, rather than a tactical officer).
I'd also just plain buff beams, if it were up to me. DHCs don't need to be that good compared to other weapons; escorts still have more tac consoles, and higher level tac powers, so they still have the advantage in DPS even if they use beams like everyone else. Plus there are no beam powers that can really match CRF.
Just some thoughts that popped into my head as I read through this most excellent thread.
I've always wondered why science ships should be the only ones to get built in Boff powers: perhaps cruisers would be made somewhat more potent with innate 'emergency/auxiliary power to...' abilities.
Perhaps an innate 'beam overload' (what's the point of having high level tac beam powers anyway? Escorts don't get much use out of them); or make overload an engineering power (overloading a weapon sounds like something an engineer might do, rather than a tactical officer).
I'd also just plain buff beams, if it were up to me. DHCs don't need to be that good compared to other weapons; escorts still have more tac consoles, and higher level tac powers, so they still have the advantage in DPS even if they use beams like everyone else. Plus there are no beam powers that can really match CRF.
Just some thoughts that popped into my head as I read through this most excellent thread.
You have a very odd definition of excellent. And if you look at the Fleet Excel and Fleet Regent, they have equal number of tac consoles with a few of the upper echelon escorts (FPE, FHEC, etc).
As for the built in abilities, yeah, that one did confuse me for a little while. But it semi-sorta makes sense if you think about it. Sci ships have VERY strong sensors in comparison to the rest of the ships, so it would make sense that they would know where to fire to hit specific subsystems, and it would make sense that their sensors would be constantly scanning a target and know exactly where to hit to do more damage overall.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Maybe Emergency Power To Weapons should just be made as strong as Emergency Power To Shields is already.
Except for the fact that escorts can also use it. You already have them running around with those masses of tac consoles/BOff slots and DHCs. Now imagine if they got 30 seconds of an addition 20% energy damage from EPtW. Not a pretty sight.
The next recourse would be to make it cruiser only, but then you would have the masses of escort pilots making noise while the cruiser captains preened themselves, and the whole mess would just flip around as it became Cruisers Online once again.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I've always wondered why science ships should be the only ones to get built in Boff powers: perhaps cruisers would be made somewhat more potent with innate 'emergency/auxiliary power to...' abilities.
Perhaps an innate 'beam overload' (what's the point of having high level tac beam powers anyway? Escorts don't get much use out of them); or make overload an engineering power (overloading a weapon sounds like something an engineer might do, rather than a tactical officer).
Not a bad thought, but just to play DA, what innate ability would scorts get? Because you know if you're handing them out to Sci and Cruisers, the scort pilots will want one too.
Not to mention that the "Target Subsystem I" skills really don't seem to add a heck of a lot of benefit. The disable effect happens rarely enough that I normally don't bother adding them to my power bar. (I should get around to putting them in a keybind with "Fire all energy weapons" though...)
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Except for the fact that escorts can also use it. You already have them running around with those masses of tac consoles/BOff slots and DHCs. Now imagine if they got 30 seconds of an addition 20% energy damage from EPtW. Not a pretty sight.
The next recourse would be to make it cruiser only, but then you would have the masses of escort pilots making noise while the cruiser captains preened themselves, and the whole mess would just flip around as it became Cruisers Online once again.
New power type based around cruisers being able to bring additional auxilliary reactors online (make it a Lc/Cmd slot only) perhaps?.
Not a bad thought, but just to play DA, what innate ability would scorts get? Because you know if you're handing them out to Sci and Cruisers, the scort pilots will want one too.
The best way to buff cruisers is to buff beams as well.
Heavy Beam Array (Cruiser Only and some Sci Vessels like Nebula perhaps)
9 Energy Drain
240 Arc (10 less than standard)
+5% accuracy
200 base damage (base is 100 for standard beam array)
Fires 2 pulses per cycle (instead of 4 like standard beam array)
Forward Mount Only
Give cruisers an innate 10% damage reduction as well that applies to all damage before shields and/or hull resists are taken into account. Done, fixed.
Not a bad thought, but just to play DA, what innate ability would scorts get? Because you know if you're handing them out to Sci and Cruisers, the scort pilots will want one too.
Not to mention that the "Target Subsystem I" skills really don't seem to add a heck of a lot of benefit. The disable effect happens rarely enough that I normally don't bother adding them to my power bar. (I should get around to putting them in a keybind with "Fire all energy weapons" though...)
I don't fly escorts all that often, so it's hard to say. I want to say 'Attack Patterns', but I suspect that would be redundant. Same with weapon powers.
Maybe MES? If cloaks are so very beneficial on escorty type ships, then a degree of stealth would be fairly common feature for them, or so one would think. Perhaps some new type of evasive manoeuvre, that made them harder to hit (though not faster, like the regular one). Dunno, I'm reaching here.
I agree that the innate 'Target Subsystem' powers aren't all that useful right now, but it's still 4 Boff powers that they didn't have to pay for; would be nice if they got a buff someday.
I don't fly escorts all that often, so it's hard to say. I want to say 'Attack Patterns', but I suspect that would be redundant. Same with weapon powers.
APs would not be redundant at all given the uptime relationships between them all. The big hiccups would be that APs are not ensign level powers, and that a free APO1 would be a huge boost.
APs would not be redundant at all given the uptime relationships between them all. The big hiccups would be that APs are not ensign level powers, and that a free APO1 would be a huge boost.
There's actually an interesting thread going on in the PvP forum discussing precisely this. I don't currently remember the exact thread name, but it basically looks at captain abilities and ship built-in abilities, and there are interesting suggestions on what abilities could be given to escorts and cruisers that are similar to SST and SA on science ships.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
There's actually an interesting thread going on in the PvP forum discussing precisely this. I don't currently remember the exact thread name, but it basically looks at captain abilities and ship built-in abilities, and there are interesting suggestions on what abilities could be given to escorts and cruisers that are similar to SST and SA on science ships.
I think the problem is one of role. The Tank/Healer/DPS paradigm breaks down in space combat. There is no "taunt." There is no clear indicator of who has threat, who is going to get threat, and who wants threat. There are not many reliable ways to drop threat. Without being able to control threat being "tanky" is not a bonus, it becomes a liability because the opportunity cost of just doing more DPS is too great.
If I had a magic wand and could go back in time and rewrite the game, I would make some changes to the base roles of ships. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of going to a tank/heals/dps model, so I would make escorts roughly the same as they are now, but without the ability to load heavy explosives. They would focus on dual cannons and light torps. Cruisers would gain/not lose the ability to load heavy explosives like tric mines and such. Sci ships would maintain their middle-road status, loading heavier explosives then escorts but not able to mach a cruiser. Then space could be around escorts and sci ships providing suport to the big heavy cruisers to escort them to the "goal territory" where they could unleash the pain on the objectives. Everybody would have a role that made sense and things wouldn't feel like a stale carbon copy of every other MMO out there. In PvP you would have a natural need to attack a cruiser, because if you didn't they would unleash hell on your "base" or "gate" or whatever you were protecting.
It's kinda late for such a revolutionary change. Stripping high explosives from such a large portion of the playerbase is certian not to go well. Seeing as that is not a great option, cruisers need a taunt, the threat skill in the skill tree needs to go away, and threat scaleing consoles need to start earlier in the game then fleet embasys. If we move threat to consoles instead of skills, then you get to choose based on ship. If we have threat consoles starting earlier in the game, then new people leveling can be exposed to the concept and be prepared for in at end game when it matters. Threat consoles should have a visual marker so other players can identify at a glance "I'm a tank, I'm geared up to get hit."
The rest is on players at that point. If you give players the tools to mange their threat, and ships designed to soak up hits, and the tools to identify who is in what role, then the players will figure out the rest. Well, the good ones anyway. The poor ones will charge in with a skittle-shooter and blow the generators on the wrong side regardless =P
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Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
The best way to buff cruisers is to buff beams as well.
Heavy Beam Array (Cruiser Only and some Sci Vessels like Nebula perhaps)
9 Energy Drain
240 Arc (10 less than standard)
+5% accuracy
200 base damage (base is 100 for standard beam array)
Fires 2 pulses per cycle (instead of 4 like standard beam array)
Forward Mount Only
Give cruisers an innate 10% damage reduction as well that applies to all damage before shields and/or hull resists are taken into account. Done, fixed.
So to you a fair balance is a HB with only a 10 degree reduction in firing arc, a 1 point difference in drain but a +5% bonus to accuracy, 200 base damage at mk1 which is 12 points higher than mk1 DHC?
With a FA of 240 to fire broad side enough to make movement unneccassary and a bonus to accuracy why would anyone fly escorts anymore?
One could fly almost every cruiser in escort-esque style cycling BOs + EPTW or AtB with turrets or Beam arrays in the aft and do away with escorts all together.
Doesnt seem like a completely fair idea to me.
I do like the 10% bonus defense one though. It fits the idea of Cruisers being massive as a form of defense (though I expect BCs will get something too) and is balanced to the Escorts bonus 10% defense for speed.
Give cruisers an innate 10% damage reduction as well that applies to all damage before shields and/or hull resists are taken into account. Done, fixed.
Its weird, I think you're one of the players that understands the number crunching that goes on behind the scenes better than I do, but you repeatedly miss the point.
The idea is that cruisers may be giving up too much to be tankier than they could possibly need to be, and here you are suggesting they be made tankier as a solution to your perceived under performing DPS?
No.
That is a non solution, it would fix nothing but necessitating escorts have their DPS upped considerably for any non escort kills to occur in PvP. That is all it would do since the one shots of insta-death in PvE would still get through.
Besides, my opinion is that mobility in the way of a +1 or +2 to turning is what cruisers really need.
So to you a fair balance is a HB with only a 10 degree reduction in firing arc, a 1 point difference in drain but a +5% bonus to accuracy, 200 base damage at mk1 which is 12 points higher than mk1 DHC?
With a FA of 240 to fire broad side enough to make movement unneccassary and a bonus to accuracy why would anyone fly escorts anymore?
One could fly almost every cruiser in escort-esque style cycling BOs + EPTW or AtB with turrets or Beam arrays in the aft and do away with escorts all together.
Doesnt seem like a completely fair idea to me.
I do like the 10% bonus defense one though. It fits the idea of Cruisers being massive as a form of defense (though I expect BCs will get something too) and is balanced to the Escorts bonus 10% defense for speed.
You miss the part where they fired half as many shots as a beam array, but with the same firing cycle time. Basically exactly like a DHC does compared to a DC (Same DPS, different DPV). And yes battlecruisers should gain the damage reduction as well although if fed whales did not get a turn rate buff at the same time then it should not be the full 10% instead 8%ish.
Its weird, I think you're one of the players that understands the number crunching that goes on behind the scenes better than I do, but you repeatedly miss the point.
The idea is that cruisers may be giving up too much to be tankier than they could possibly need to be, and here you are suggesting they be made tankier as a solution to your perceived under performing DPS?
No.
That is a non solution, it would fix nothing but necessitating escorts have their DPS upped considerably for any non escort kills to occur in PvP. That is all it would do since the one shots of insta-death in PvE would still get through.
Besides, my opinion is that mobility in the way of a +1 or +2 to turning is what cruisers really need.
More like the fact that the escort hull has more built in tank and a better scaling tank than a cruiser in PvE and that is fundamentally wrong even if the vast majority have no clue that it is in fact true. That is just not right and annoys me.
Turn rate, atleast from a PvE and math perspective, is a quality of life issue. I do think it would be a good idea to increase it and I can see the benefit from a player standpoint.
Finally PvP has no real balance. Instead it relies upon the 'perceived balance of how it should be' by various players and groups inside it. They each have there concept of how it should work by declaring various things overpowered or cheap which then has extreme ripple effects when they do become banned. Don't get me wrong, the majority of things are overpowered and cheap in PvP but the entire system gets all out of whack to begin with at the extremes.
What is it with all this "if cruisers get a buff nobody would fly escorts"?
Even if cruisers did the same damage as escorts people would still play escorts for the same reason people play science ships: the play style.
Some people enjoy the craptastic damage your typical science ship does due to the fact you can play with your enemies and annoy them even with the post-nerf sci skills. Just as some people enjoy the cruiser style of play despite the fact they don't play tank and try to do damage without dual EPtS and EPtWs.
Yes those who insist upon playing the most powerful ships will move from escorts to cruisers but we will see a higher percentage of good escort players as they would be played by people who like that playstyle and not by those who just want max damage output...
The best way to buff cruisers is to buff beams as well.
Heavy Beam Array (Cruiser Only and some Sci Vessels like Nebula perhaps)
9 Energy Drain
240 Arc (10 less than standard)
+5% accuracy
200 base damage (base is 100 for standard beam array)
Fires 2 pulses per cycle (instead of 4 like standard beam array)
Forward Mount Only
I disagree with this: Instead of raising the accuracy, and leaving DPS basically the same, raise the damage to levels competitive with cannons, and LOWER the accuracy: It gives cruisers the role of the capital ship back, as they'll have the kind of firepower to suit it...without giving them the ability to pop escorts with it.
Long term, I believe all raising or lowering the accuracy of the beams would really accomplish is alter the value of the ACC modifier on uncommon (or better) weapons on the exchange.
I suspect those who claim that the firing cycle and power drain of beam weapons are responsible for their low DPS are onto something; but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the biggest problem with beams is that the powers that benefit them the most just aren't available to the majority of the ships that rely on beam weapons (certainly not the higher ranks of those powers anyway).
Long term, I believe all raising or lowering the accuracy of the beams would really accomplish is alter the value of the ACC modifier on uncommon (or better) weapons on the exchange.
I suspect those who claim that the firing cycle and power drain of beam weapons are responsible for their low DPS are onto something; but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the biggest problem with beams is that the powers that benefit them the most just aren't available to the majority of the ships that rely on beam weapons (certainly not the higher ranks of those powers anyway).
Like cruisers beams do not suffer from a singular issue. It is a compound issue.
1) Low base damage. Let us be honest, Arc size does not matter when looking at a singular weapon instead it is the combined damage of the weapons in the arc and two beams are not as high DPS as a single DHC+Turret.
2) Power Drain Mechanics are problematic, DHCs fire at full power, beams fire at lower powers for most of their shots. Lower weapon power multipliers.
3) Buffs are situational, not strait up damage multipliers.
4) Damage drop off bonus compared to cannons would be great if the raw higher damage of cannons did not already negate this boon.
5) Lack of supporting weapons. Fortunately the Cutting Beam semi-solves this.
The problem is not the cruisers, the problem is the whole combat system (focused on single character career (why bother with engs and scis if with 5 tacs u can do anything, easier and faster)) needing to be re-do from scratch.
The NPCs need real AI instead of the zombies that we have as enemies.
Eng ships do NOT need stronger weapons, need real aoe healling skills and a real active taunt skill.
Scis need better aoe buffs and debuffs.
Tacs need less hull/shield/res.
And then, after the basics, we can argue about the tunning of ACC and stuff that, by its own, wont fix the game if the rest of the combat is broken, as it is. :mad:
You miss the part where they fired half as many shots as a beam array, but with the same firing cycle time. Basically exactly like a DHC does compared to a DC (Same DPS, different DPV). And yes battlecruisers should gain the damage reduction as well although if fed whales did not get a turn rate buff at the same time then it should not be the full 10% instead 8%ish
Your right, I did miss that. So I'll ask again.
How is it fair to gameplay if Heavy Beams have -
1) The same efficiency of power use of a DHC but with a lower drain rate modifier???
2) Do more damage than DHCs ????
3) Have a 240 degree firing arc so movement is no longer as important, even if they are front mount only????
4) And a bonus +5% to Accuracy
Why would anyone use any thing but Heavy Beams? How is that fair and balanced to have weapon that has all the best of DHCs, none of the handicaps and is only for Cruisers?
As to the 10% bonus resistance for Cruisers, I already stated I liked that idea and agreed ,whether Cruisers got the 1-2 point turn rate buff or not.
The problem is not the cruisers, the problem is the whole combat system (focused on single character career (why bother with engs and scis if with 5 tacs u can do anything, easier and faster)) needing to be re-do from scratch.
The NPCs need real AI instead of the zombies that we have as enemies.
Eng ships do NOT need stronger weapons, need real aoe healling skills and a real active taunt skill.
Scis need better aoe buffs and debuffs.
Tacs need less hull/shield/res.
And then, after the basics, we can argue about the tunning of ACC and stuff that, by its own, wont fix the game if the rest of the combat is broken, as it is. :mad:
Well, I agree that there are problems with the captain career paths too, they are not the whole of the problem.
Look at it this way, these days we see sci ships as being about buff/debuffs; I used to kill things with those powers (not just dumb AI either, I had a GW + CPB + WP combo that wrecked in PVP). I should point out that this was not with a tac captain. Every ship type is supposed to be able to fight by some means (regardless of who or what is flying it); they have to be, since most of this game is played solo.
Now, cruisers have more guns than any other type of ship; that's a pretty clear sign that they are supposed to be using those to kill stuff, not just sit about healing things or soaking up damage.
Now, cruisers have more guns than any other type of ship; that's a pretty clear sign that they are supposed to be using those to kill stuff, not just sit about healing things or soaking up damage.
U know those big guys from any mmorpg with insane muscles, crazy giant axes and not less intimidating spiky armors? I know, i know, logic says that they should kill faster than the skinny magical girls in underwear. But actually they only tank and deal medium/low damage (and save the girls princesses booty).
I understand this is not how we see ST on the tv, but clearly trying to port what a tv show/movie/book say to a game like this is not working at all.
And yes, is not the whole problem, but in STO the thin girls can do anything by their own, there is no need of the other guys.
Comments
Don't know about the "heavy beam array" (we do have DBB's), but I think there's a really good argument for turning high-end cruisers into cube-killer dreadnoughts.
However, we have the precedent set by the Defiant that skews what the role of an escort really ought to be. The thing was specifically designed to fight the Borg, whereas the cruisers aren't.
I really don't know what the secret sauce ought to be... I just know it isn't in there yet.
Maybe... maybe the trick is to give cruisers an advantage in weapon power (reduced power drain or reduced cooldowns, maybe?) but give escorts better crits?
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Not entirely accurate. The Defiant class was originally conceived of as part of the Anti-Borg task force (along with classes like the Akira and Steamrunner for example), but the first prototype failed miserably and was repurposed into a warship aimed for service on the Dominion front.
That is indeed true, but ask the average DS9 fan what the Defiant was built for and see what answer you get. It's so inextricably tied in with Sisko's history that everybody most remembers that it's supposed to be a Borg-killer.
I'm convinced the entire escort class was built around this design, that there is a persistent perception tied to this particular ship that it should out-fly and out-gun everything else Starfleet has, and that this perception has bled over in some degree into every other escort in the game.
IMO, the only reason we even have "tactical cruisers" in the game is because it's obvious even to Cryptic that Tac ships have a combat advantage and not everybody in a cruiser wants to play "healboat".
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Conceptually, cruisers should have enough firepower to do significant damage to escorts, even a "healboat". I run a pretty good Fleet Excel' cruiser skill/boff/doff/build and the outcome is more or less a foregone conclusion with guys I spar with in their escorts. And I am at least a "fair" cruiser commander, if not better. Most of the fights tend to be full time heals while hoping that they make a big mistake and I get some really awesome crits at the same time.
Right now cruisers can only "add" to fellow escorts damage instead of being a real threat out on their own (the majority of the time). Cruisers need a small tweak in firepower/capability to fend off escorts. Not totally out-damage them, or even match, but enough to give escorts reason for concern when engaging cruisers.
Perhaps an innate 'beam overload' (what's the point of having high level tac beam powers anyway? Escorts don't get much use out of them); or make overload an engineering power (overloading a weapon sounds like something an engineer might do, rather than a tactical officer).
I'd also just plain buff beams, if it were up to me. DHCs don't need to be that good compared to other weapons; escorts still have more tac consoles, and higher level tac powers, so they still have the advantage in DPS even if they use beams like everyone else. Plus there are no beam powers that can really match CRF.
Just some thoughts that popped into my head as I read through this most excellent thread.
You have a very odd definition of excellent. And if you look at the Fleet Excel and Fleet Regent, they have equal number of tac consoles with a few of the upper echelon escorts (FPE, FHEC, etc).
As for the built in abilities, yeah, that one did confuse me for a little while. But it semi-sorta makes sense if you think about it. Sci ships have VERY strong sensors in comparison to the rest of the ships, so it would make sense that they would know where to fire to hit specific subsystems, and it would make sense that their sensors would be constantly scanning a target and know exactly where to hit to do more damage overall.
Except for the fact that escorts can also use it. You already have them running around with those masses of tac consoles/BOff slots and DHCs. Now imagine if they got 30 seconds of an addition 20% energy damage from EPtW. Not a pretty sight.
The next recourse would be to make it cruiser only, but then you would have the masses of escort pilots making noise while the cruiser captains preened themselves, and the whole mess would just flip around as it became Cruisers Online once again.
Not a bad thought, but just to play DA, what innate ability would scorts get? Because you know if you're handing them out to Sci and Cruisers, the scort pilots will want one too.
Not to mention that the "Target Subsystem I" skills really don't seem to add a heck of a lot of benefit. The disable effect happens rarely enough that I normally don't bother adding them to my power bar. (I should get around to putting them in a keybind with "Fire all energy weapons" though...)
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New power type based around cruisers being able to bring additional auxilliary reactors online (make it a Lc/Cmd slot only) perhaps?.
Innate bonus to evasive maneuvers?
Basic versions of Attack Patterns?
Basic Versions of TS and HYT?
CRF/CSV?
BO/FAW?
Heavy Beam Array (Cruiser Only and some Sci Vessels like Nebula perhaps)
9 Energy Drain
240 Arc (10 less than standard)
+5% accuracy
200 base damage (base is 100 for standard beam array)
Fires 2 pulses per cycle (instead of 4 like standard beam array)
Forward Mount Only
Give cruisers an innate 10% damage reduction as well that applies to all damage before shields and/or hull resists are taken into account. Done, fixed.
I don't fly escorts all that often, so it's hard to say. I want to say 'Attack Patterns', but I suspect that would be redundant. Same with weapon powers.
Maybe MES? If cloaks are so very beneficial on escorty type ships, then a degree of stealth would be fairly common feature for them, or so one would think. Perhaps some new type of evasive manoeuvre, that made them harder to hit (though not faster, like the regular one). Dunno, I'm reaching here.
I agree that the innate 'Target Subsystem' powers aren't all that useful right now, but it's still 4 Boff powers that they didn't have to pay for; would be nice if they got a buff someday.
APs would not be redundant at all given the uptime relationships between them all. The big hiccups would be that APs are not ensign level powers, and that a free APO1 would be a huge boost.
Hmmm... OK.
So, 'too much', rather than 'redundant' then.
If one looks at strictly the subsystem targeting, yes. Throw the sensor scan into the mix though, and things get a bit more...murky.
There's actually an interesting thread going on in the PvP forum discussing precisely this. I don't currently remember the exact thread name, but it basically looks at captain abilities and ship built-in abilities, and there are interesting suggestions on what abilities could be given to escorts and cruisers that are similar to SST and SA on science ships.
Remove current Captain Abilities from the game. Pretty interesting discussion.
If I had a magic wand and could go back in time and rewrite the game, I would make some changes to the base roles of ships. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of going to a tank/heals/dps model, so I would make escorts roughly the same as they are now, but without the ability to load heavy explosives. They would focus on dual cannons and light torps. Cruisers would gain/not lose the ability to load heavy explosives like tric mines and such. Sci ships would maintain their middle-road status, loading heavier explosives then escorts but not able to mach a cruiser. Then space could be around escorts and sci ships providing suport to the big heavy cruisers to escort them to the "goal territory" where they could unleash the pain on the objectives. Everybody would have a role that made sense and things wouldn't feel like a stale carbon copy of every other MMO out there. In PvP you would have a natural need to attack a cruiser, because if you didn't they would unleash hell on your "base" or "gate" or whatever you were protecting.
It's kinda late for such a revolutionary change. Stripping high explosives from such a large portion of the playerbase is certian not to go well. Seeing as that is not a great option, cruisers need a taunt, the threat skill in the skill tree needs to go away, and threat scaleing consoles need to start earlier in the game then fleet embasys. If we move threat to consoles instead of skills, then you get to choose based on ship. If we have threat consoles starting earlier in the game, then new people leveling can be exposed to the concept and be prepared for in at end game when it matters. Threat consoles should have a visual marker so other players can identify at a glance "I'm a tank, I'm geared up to get hit."
The rest is on players at that point. If you give players the tools to mange their threat, and ships designed to soak up hits, and the tools to identify who is in what role, then the players will figure out the rest. Well, the good ones anyway. The poor ones will charge in with a skittle-shooter and blow the generators on the wrong side regardless =P
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
So to you a fair balance is a HB with only a 10 degree reduction in firing arc, a 1 point difference in drain but a +5% bonus to accuracy, 200 base damage at mk1 which is 12 points higher than mk1 DHC?
With a FA of 240 to fire broad side enough to make movement unneccassary and a bonus to accuracy why would anyone fly escorts anymore?
One could fly almost every cruiser in escort-esque style cycling BOs + EPTW or AtB with turrets or Beam arrays in the aft and do away with escorts all together.
Doesnt seem like a completely fair idea to me.
I do like the 10% bonus defense one though. It fits the idea of Cruisers being massive as a form of defense (though I expect BCs will get something too) and is balanced to the Escorts bonus 10% defense for speed.
R.I.P
Its weird, I think you're one of the players that understands the number crunching that goes on behind the scenes better than I do, but you repeatedly miss the point.
The idea is that cruisers may be giving up too much to be tankier than they could possibly need to be, and here you are suggesting they be made tankier as a solution to your perceived under performing DPS?
No.
That is a non solution, it would fix nothing but necessitating escorts have their DPS upped considerably for any non escort kills to occur in PvP. That is all it would do since the one shots of insta-death in PvE would still get through.
Besides, my opinion is that mobility in the way of a +1 or +2 to turning is what cruisers really need.
You miss the part where they fired half as many shots as a beam array, but with the same firing cycle time. Basically exactly like a DHC does compared to a DC (Same DPS, different DPV). And yes battlecruisers should gain the damage reduction as well although if fed whales did not get a turn rate buff at the same time then it should not be the full 10% instead 8%ish.
More like the fact that the escort hull has more built in tank and a better scaling tank than a cruiser in PvE and that is fundamentally wrong even if the vast majority have no clue that it is in fact true. That is just not right and annoys me.
Turn rate, atleast from a PvE and math perspective, is a quality of life issue. I do think it would be a good idea to increase it and I can see the benefit from a player standpoint.
Finally PvP has no real balance. Instead it relies upon the 'perceived balance of how it should be' by various players and groups inside it. They each have there concept of how it should work by declaring various things overpowered or cheap which then has extreme ripple effects when they do become banned. Don't get me wrong, the majority of things are overpowered and cheap in PvP but the entire system gets all out of whack to begin with at the extremes.
Even if cruisers did the same damage as escorts people would still play escorts for the same reason people play science ships: the play style.
Some people enjoy the craptastic damage your typical science ship does due to the fact you can play with your enemies and annoy them even with the post-nerf sci skills. Just as some people enjoy the cruiser style of play despite the fact they don't play tank and try to do damage without dual EPtS and EPtWs.
Yes those who insist upon playing the most powerful ships will move from escorts to cruisers but we will see a higher percentage of good escort players as they would be played by people who like that playstyle and not by those who just want max damage output...
So yeah... Why would nobody fly an escort?
I suspect those who claim that the firing cycle and power drain of beam weapons are responsible for their low DPS are onto something; but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the biggest problem with beams is that the powers that benefit them the most just aren't available to the majority of the ships that rely on beam weapons (certainly not the higher ranks of those powers anyway).
Like cruisers beams do not suffer from a singular issue. It is a compound issue.
1) Low base damage. Let us be honest, Arc size does not matter when looking at a singular weapon instead it is the combined damage of the weapons in the arc and two beams are not as high DPS as a single DHC+Turret.
2) Power Drain Mechanics are problematic, DHCs fire at full power, beams fire at lower powers for most of their shots. Lower weapon power multipliers.
3) Buffs are situational, not strait up damage multipliers.
4) Damage drop off bonus compared to cannons would be great if the raw higher damage of cannons did not already negate this boon.
5) Lack of supporting weapons. Fortunately the Cutting Beam semi-solves this.
The NPCs need real AI instead of the zombies that we have as enemies.
Eng ships do NOT need stronger weapons, need real aoe healling skills and a real active taunt skill.
Scis need better aoe buffs and debuffs.
Tacs need less hull/shield/res.
And then, after the basics, we can argue about the tunning of ACC and stuff that, by its own, wont fix the game if the rest of the combat is broken, as it is. :mad:
Your right, I did miss that. So I'll ask again.
How is it fair to gameplay if Heavy Beams have -
1) The same efficiency of power use of a DHC but with a lower drain rate modifier???
2) Do more damage than DHCs ????
3) Have a 240 degree firing arc so movement is no longer as important, even if they are front mount only????
4) And a bonus +5% to Accuracy
Why would anyone use any thing but Heavy Beams? How is that fair and balanced to have weapon that has all the best of DHCs, none of the handicaps and is only for Cruisers?
As to the 10% bonus resistance for Cruisers, I already stated I liked that idea and agreed ,whether Cruisers got the 1-2 point turn rate buff or not.
R.I.P
Well, I agree that there are problems with the captain career paths too, they are not the whole of the problem.
Look at it this way, these days we see sci ships as being about buff/debuffs; I used to kill things with those powers (not just dumb AI either, I had a GW + CPB + WP combo that wrecked in PVP). I should point out that this was not with a tac captain. Every ship type is supposed to be able to fight by some means (regardless of who or what is flying it); they have to be, since most of this game is played solo.
Now, cruisers have more guns than any other type of ship; that's a pretty clear sign that they are supposed to be using those to kill stuff, not just sit about healing things or soaking up damage.
U know those big guys from any mmorpg with insane muscles, crazy giant axes and not less intimidating spiky armors? I know, i know, logic says that they should kill faster than the skinny magical girls in underwear. But actually they only tank and deal medium/low damage (and save the girls princesses booty).
I understand this is not how we see ST on the tv, but clearly trying to port what a tv show/movie/book say to a game like this is not working at all.
And yes, is not the whole problem, but in STO the thin girls can do anything by their own, there is no need of the other guys.