On the one hand i agree that tric mines are way over powered and if i had a chunk of dilithium for every time i saw somebody flying around in a PVP not targeting anyone laying a mine and claiming "mad skillage" when they get a kill is irritating. I rank trico mines on par with siphon boats in terms of skill.
But as MK & Mav say, they can be easily avoided/shot down/repulsed or simply blow up via spam.
Do i wish they were less powerful to make PVE even less laughable? Yes. Do i think they need a slight damage nerf for PVP? Maybe. Do i think people need to use counters? Obviously.
FYI to the guy moaning over a 9min optional time remaining - is that unusual for you?
Moaning ? Explain your sarcasm
Yes it was unusual , it was the fastest I've saw it
Done so far , I'm sure you do it much faster solo
Right , the other 4 people just watch
But then again I'm still learning the game compared
To you guys and will never match you uber skillz
Not that I care too either , it seems with Eliteness comes
Inbred rudeness and that isn't me
So I'll keep my Noobness
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
After my 5th pug match of having my team or the opposing team wiped out by tric users I've rather had enough.
They have become the number one defacto way of killing. It's getting to the point where half the players in a match are using them. Doesn't matter what career the captain is, they're always deadly. It's relly starting to get peoples backs up or in some cases just put them off pvp all together.
It's seriously beginning to ruin the game.
I'm not just talking PvP here, I'm talk PvE as well. They've made everything from Borg elite tactical cubes to the gates, shield or unshielded, total walkovers. I remember someone bragging in my team how his tric mines are taking out whole borg cubes without having fired anything else.
They are a no-skill-required method of playing the game.
Sry mate, but I'm with mai on this one, just because DHC have been kicked from the throne of #1 no-skill-all-kills weapon doesn't mean we should take em out either.
Your right pvpers specs into defense
So a pver who doesn't need all that defense
Can spec into offense with the skill points the
Pver had to spend simply to survive
The pvper must also use hi accuracy weapons
That do less damage than a pver who can buy
Hi damage hi crit weapons because he doesn't
Need the extra accuracy
Both have the same skill points to spend
I have no idea what is so hard to grasp here
It's simple logic
your simple logic is wrong. i know almost every pvp'r whos out to wreck things will put every point needed into offensive for their build then put points into defensive.
if youre just filling upthe tacitcal tree to fill it up then youre doing it wrong.
youre still claiming that a pver can out damage a pvpr and thats simply not the case. if you realized that the extra acc is also a benifit for landing a critical hit you might understand its not a waste either.
i have no idea why you cant grasp that a pve build usually pales compaired a pvp build with both aiming to do the same thing- kill things quickly.
But then again I'm still learning the game compared
To you guys and will never match you uber skillz
Not that I care too either , it seems with Eliteness comes
Inbred rudeness and that isn't me
So I'll keep my Noobness
right...once again saying we're dumb ones then backhanding with insults. way to go dude!
simple solution to your claims. tell us what weapons youre using. and what ships for a team to take out one of the space stf's and ill find a pvp team that'll use the same stuff and do it faster all because of the skill tree and player skill.
A pve players doesn't use skills I'n defensive areas
A pvper has to , thus limiting a pvpers Dps or survivalability
I'n pvp, that's why most who pvp do not pve
If anything your statement is a joke
I guess one doesn't need defensive skills when not specced any points into thread generation....
Let the pvp-er of the stf team take the damage for the other (true) pve-ers
Is this what STO has come to? Damn, no wonder no one PvPs anymore... People are on their "My ship can pew pew more than yours" horse and now we troll the PvEers...
>.>
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Is this what STO has come to? Damn, no wonder no one PvPs anymore... People are on their "My ship can pew pew more than yours" horse and now we troll the PvEers...
>.>
you do realize the "pver" started this pissing match right?
youre still claiming that a pver can out damage a pvpr and thats simply not the case. if you realized that the extra acc is also a benifit for landing a critical hit you might understand its not a waste either.
i have no idea why you cant grasp that a pve build usually pales compaired a pvp build with both aiming to do the same thing- kill things quickly.
Lets not count out the fact that a lot of PVP'ers I do PVE with change they're weapon load-out to better kill things and thus save time. When you don't need quite so much Acc then why not use other stuff? I like many others also change rapid fire to scatter volley to save time.
Five PVPers can do anything ingame I know better then five PVE'ers. The only exception that neither community can claim is winning No Win Scenario. Yet.
It's not diminishing PVE and those who play it, i'm not negating the skill required. It's just that the gulf between the two is large. And as somebody who's somewhere in the middle of the two, you can see lol.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Your telling me you can take your pvp character
Ship and gear Boffs and doffs
And you can out do another character you
Create I'n damage I'n a STF ? With the same ship
But doffs Boffs and character to do extream damage
When you do not need all those defense skill points
You have to use I'n pvp
Is that what your saying ? That's what I am saying
If your saying the avg pvper is a more skilled
Player than the avg pver I agree 100%
I stand by what I've said many times already
A pvp team I'n pve
Will be out done by a pve team I'n pve
Skill at game roughly equal
If you disagree I respect your decision
But it doesn't change the facts
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Your telling me you can take your pvp character
Ship and gear Boffs and doffs
And you can out do another character you
Create I'n damage I'n a STF ? With the same ship
But doffs Boffs and character to do extream damage
When you do not need all those defense skill points
You have to use I'n pvp
Is that what your saying ? That's what I am saying
If your saying the avg pvper is a more skilled
Player than the avg pver I agree 100%
I stand by what I've said many times already
A pvp team I'n pve
Will be out done by a pve team I'n pve
Skill at game roughly equal
If you disagree I respect your decision
But it doesn't change the facts
except you havent presented any facts. you have only said "pve team beats pvp team at pve" and i have argued that to not be true. and even challenged you to prove it with a video of you and your pve team making a run on an stf and then a pvp team would do the same but faster.
im saying that pvp'rs take all the points they only need to deal the maximum damage with the gear theyve choosen and still have points for other things.
thats the beauty of the pvp build compaired to a pve build. for example- a player may like the lookl of rainbows but it will not do anywhere near as much damage as a dedicated build to a specific weapon type.
ill state this again. tell what youre using except your skill tree and i can say that a pvp team will probably take whatever youre using and do it better. why? because they wont just fill up the tactical tree. theyll take what they need to maximize for the build and still be able to put the points needed into defense. so they can then do your job and do pvp.
yet all you can do is pve? what a waste of points.
Your telling me you can take your pvp character
Ship and gear Boffs and doffs
And you can out do another character you
Create I'n damage I'n a STF ? With the same ship
But doffs Boffs and character to do extream damage
When you do not need all those defense skill points
You have to use I'n pvp
Is that what your saying ? That's what I am saying
If your saying the avg pvper is a more skilled
Player than the avg pver I agree 100%
I stand by what I've said many times already
A pvp team I'n pve
Will be out done by a pve team I'n pve
Skill at game roughly equal
If you disagree I respect your decision
But it doesn't change the facts
there isn't enough variety in the skill tree for pvp and pve skill builds to look much different. and every single pvp ability build will decimate pve and stfs. swapping from CRF and APO to CSV and APB are literally the only changes you would make from a pvp to pve build.
someone who only pve's is incapable of understanding the game even 10% as well as a skilled pvper. this means we are ~9 times better then the 'best' pve'ers. this is proven to me every time i que up with people i have never seen before in pvp.
Take YOUR teams PVP doffs Boffs skills
Ship and all gear just like your going to do
A team pvp match
And do a pve elite like infected
That has been my point the entire time
If you change out anything your no longer
A pvper
I have already said pvpers I'n general are much
More skilled
I do great I'n pve and I don't have a single skill
Point I'n things like power insulators for example
Because it's unnecessary I'n pve but full points
I'n the energy weapon crit skills
Borg antiproton dmg x 3 energy weapons some
With 60% crit severity and 6% crit chance
But hey whatever man I can't explain it any better
Than that
Have fun
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Take YOUR teams PVP doffs Boffs skills
Ship and all gear just like your going to do
A team pvp match
And do a pve elite like infected
That has been my point the entire time
If you change out anything your no longer
A pvper
I have already said pvpers I'n general are much
More skilled
I do great I'n pve and I don't have a single skill
Point I'n things like power insulators for example
Because it's unnecessary I'n pve but full points
I'n the energy weapon crit skills
Borg antiproton dmg x 3 energy weapons some
With 60% crit severity and 6% crit chance
But hey whatever man I can't explain it any better
Than that
Have fun
i never change anything between pvp and an stf, theres no need. i might swap in a kinetic resist armor, but i usually forget. 2 of my 3 main characters use weapons with no acc mods, instead all crit mods. they have builds with EWP and tractor beams, and in pve and pvp, this is extreamly effective at controlling movement of ether other players or npc spawns. not only does this build work well in pvp and pve, it works the best in pvp and pve, if i do say so myself.
Take YOUR teams PVP doffs Boffs skills
Ship and all gear just like your going to do
A team pvp match
And do a pve elite like infected
That has been my point the entire time
If you change out anything your no longer
A pvper
I have already said pvpers I'n general are much
More skilled
I do great I'n pve and I don't have a single skill
Point I'n things like power insulators for example
Because it's unnecessary I'n pve but full points
I'n the energy weapon crit skills
Borg antiproton dmg x 3 energy weapons some
With 60% crit severity and 6% crit chance
But hey whatever man I can't explain it any better
Than that
Have fun
i dont personally chnage anything either (seeing as im a science captain in a shield stripper build), and now that i understand what you are saying "my build is better then yours" isnt the case. the pvp build even built for pvp will usually be better because a pvp build is maximized to do damage. and unlike in pvp (as i stated before) pve npc's dont have resitances to be overcome. so the pve'r uses his build without ever having to worry about this. a pvp'r has to worry about this so maximizes his build to take that into account. so when they shoot at something that has no defense its more effective.
a pvp build can do everything your pve build can do AND do pvp.
Some do, but that's not new. It is always the same people.
But back to topic:
One-shot kills are not a good thing. They should not be possible in the game, even when they are as easy to avoid as tric mines.
normally i agree but every game ive ever played has had some sort of one shot one kill ability.
99% of first person shooters its usually the head.
most tric kills ive gotten have either been after the target is already damage or ive taken their shields down, or they get hit by multiple tric mines at a time. (my dispersal launches 3 at a time)
the only problem with tric mines is that tactical abilites boost them, and oh yeah... thats their job. ya know? to boost damage. they apparently do it very well.
Personally, I think that the best damage dealer (tac escort) shooting at the worst damage taker (which should be the tac escort) should at least need ten seconds of alpha striking to destroy the target. Enough time for a newbie to see and understand what is happening.
But that is a general problem in STO's setup of tactical powers, so why fix it only at one point, (like the tric mines), without fixing the others?
I'm not sure you understand quite how long ten seconds is. Try counting it out aloud.
Personally, I think that the best damage dealer (tac escort) shooting at the worst damage taker (which should be the tac escort) should at least need ten seconds of alpha striking to destroy the target. Enough time for a newbie to see and understand what is happening.
But that is a general problem in STO's setup of tactical powers, so why fix it only at one point, (like the tric mines), without fixing the others?
dont most tactical powers last only 10 seconds? so how long then do you think it should take to take out a non-weak player? ie a science or cruiser?
I don't quite get how the strength of the player is determined by the ship type? If you are talking about pure hitpoints vs damage numbers, then I think a cruiser having about 30% more hitpoints than an escort is meant to have it last 30% longer when under fire and without any healing or armor in the mix.
But that does lead us a bit away from the problem of tric mine spike damage and why it could be a problem in PvP and PvE, or why it could be not.
i was using the term "weak player" as in the ship type that takes the least damage in compairison to the other ships which are "stronger"
so going on that math, the escort should last 10 seconds against another escort. so then that means a cruiser should last only 13 seconds against a escort?
-_- so the sci ship should last less then 10 seconds since it has less health then the escort?
this obviously doesnt take shields into the health mix?
right. my point is that its tactical captains captian powers that lead to insane tric spike damage. so... just like with how tacitcal captain powers boost science damage powers. apparently its "working as intended"
Well, in order to make that a complete observation, we would have to include shields in the equation, shouldn't we, and then add armor and healing and.... I was just giving an example, please don't read too much into it.
I am sure I have read Borticus stating that they are discussing tac powers internally.
but that example is the basis for the thing. you cant take just the hull of a ship to determine if its the "weak health" of the bunch making it more of a target for being targeted. shields should factor into the health for that.
ive also read from borticus that=
pvp has no connection to the borg or romulans or fleets (kerrat and otha are pretty borg heavy last i checked)
only fleet missions earn fleet marks (foundry missions last i checked arnt fleet missions)
science is being looked at (hahahaha)
pvp is important to them (HAHAHAHA)
just saying....
What's wrong with tricobalt mines ? One of the few reasons to use DPB3 and have some fun.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
So every time a single ignored or recently unused weapon or ability gets some attention and people start to use them, they are OP?
Is this whole game filled with whinning children?
This is the same Tricobalt mine that many laughed at just a few months ago. They only thing that has changed is how the BOff powers effect them, making them a viable weapon finally.
right. my point is that its tactical captains captian powers that lead to insane tric spike damage. so... just like with how tacitcal captain powers boost science damage powers. apparently its "working as intended"
A Tricobalt mine is a Tactical weapon is it not? I can understand the grievance with Tac Captain powers buffing science power damage but a Tricobalt is a weapon and the Tac powers where designed to buff it just like energy weapons or torpedos.
So every time a single ignored or recently unused weapon or ability gets some attention and people start to use them, they are OP?
It's one of those things - that actually makes sense in a world of min/max.
If they didn't have a distinct advantage that fit into the min/max calculations, they wouldn't be used. FotM tends to roll with whatever is broken on the positive side. Something is working too good, bam - FotM. It gets toned down and players move on to the next broken thing.
It's a constant dance of imbalance, as players chase after whatever broken mechanic/item/etc that gives them an advantage in the game...
edit: And I still agree with what was said in the Temp thread - that it's not the Trics that are at issue themselves, but rather the unintended consequences of other items that were added and how those work in conjunction with them. Going after Trics won't fix the issues...
Comments
Don't insult the Tor'Kaht Battle Cruiser. That ship is a beast and one of the meanest looking bruisers in the game.
Moaning ? Explain your sarcasm
Yes it was unusual , it was the fastest I've saw it
Done so far , I'm sure you do it much faster solo
Right , the other 4 people just watch
But then again I'm still learning the game compared
To you guys and will never match you uber skillz
Not that I care too either , it seems with Eliteness comes
Inbred rudeness and that isn't me
So I'll keep my Noobness
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Sry mate, but I'm with mai on this one, just because DHC have been kicked from the throne of #1 no-skill-all-kills weapon doesn't mean we should take em out either.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
your simple logic is wrong. i know almost every pvp'r whos out to wreck things will put every point needed into offensive for their build then put points into defensive.
if youre just filling upthe tacitcal tree to fill it up then youre doing it wrong.
youre still claiming that a pver can out damage a pvpr and thats simply not the case. if you realized that the extra acc is also a benifit for landing a critical hit you might understand its not a waste either.
i have no idea why you cant grasp that a pve build usually pales compaired a pvp build with both aiming to do the same thing- kill things quickly.
right...once again saying we're dumb ones then backhanding with insults. way to go dude!
simple solution to your claims. tell us what weapons youre using. and what ships for a team to take out one of the space stf's and ill find a pvp team that'll use the same stuff and do it faster all because of the skill tree and player skill.
I guess one doesn't need defensive skills when not specced any points into thread generation....
Let the pvp-er of the stf team take the damage for the other (true) pve-ers
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
>.>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
you do realize the "pver" started this pissing match right?
Lets not count out the fact that a lot of PVP'ers I do PVE with change they're weapon load-out to better kill things and thus save time. When you don't need quite so much Acc then why not use other stuff? I like many others also change rapid fire to scatter volley to save time.
Five PVPers can do anything ingame I know better then five PVE'ers. The only exception that neither community can claim is winning No Win Scenario. Yet.
It's not diminishing PVE and those who play it, i'm not negating the skill required. It's just that the gulf between the two is large. And as somebody who's somewhere in the middle of the two, you can see lol.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Your telling me you can take your pvp character
Ship and gear Boffs and doffs
And you can out do another character you
Create I'n damage I'n a STF ? With the same ship
But doffs Boffs and character to do extream damage
When you do not need all those defense skill points
You have to use I'n pvp
Is that what your saying ? That's what I am saying
If your saying the avg pvper is a more skilled
Player than the avg pver I agree 100%
I stand by what I've said many times already
A pvp team I'n pve
Will be out done by a pve team I'n pve
Skill at game roughly equal
If you disagree I respect your decision
But it doesn't change the facts
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
except you havent presented any facts. you have only said "pve team beats pvp team at pve" and i have argued that to not be true. and even challenged you to prove it with a video of you and your pve team making a run on an stf and then a pvp team would do the same but faster.
im saying that pvp'rs take all the points they only need to deal the maximum damage with the gear theyve choosen and still have points for other things.
thats the beauty of the pvp build compaired to a pve build. for example- a player may like the lookl of rainbows but it will not do anywhere near as much damage as a dedicated build to a specific weapon type.
ill state this again. tell what youre using except your skill tree and i can say that a pvp team will probably take whatever youre using and do it better. why? because they wont just fill up the tactical tree. theyll take what they need to maximize for the build and still be able to put the points needed into defense. so they can then do your job and do pvp.
yet all you can do is pve? what a waste of points.
there isn't enough variety in the skill tree for pvp and pve skill builds to look much different. and every single pvp ability build will decimate pve and stfs. swapping from CRF and APO to CSV and APB are literally the only changes you would make from a pvp to pve build.
someone who only pve's is incapable of understanding the game even 10% as well as a skilled pvper. this means we are ~9 times better then the 'best' pve'ers. this is proven to me every time i que up with people i have never seen before in pvp.
this is basically what i run, for tactical focused captains and ships. this has no problems in ether pve or pvp
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=dontdrunkimshoot_0
Take YOUR teams PVP doffs Boffs skills
Ship and all gear just like your going to do
A team pvp match
And do a pve elite like infected
That has been my point the entire time
If you change out anything your no longer
A pvper
I have already said pvpers I'n general are much
More skilled
I do great I'n pve and I don't have a single skill
Point I'n things like power insulators for example
Because it's unnecessary I'n pve but full points
I'n the energy weapon crit skills
Borg antiproton dmg x 3 energy weapons some
With 60% crit severity and 6% crit chance
But hey whatever man I can't explain it any better
Than that
Have fun
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
i never change anything between pvp and an stf, theres no need. i might swap in a kinetic resist armor, but i usually forget. 2 of my 3 main characters use weapons with no acc mods, instead all crit mods. they have builds with EWP and tractor beams, and in pve and pvp, this is extreamly effective at controlling movement of ether other players or npc spawns. not only does this build work well in pvp and pve, it works the best in pvp and pve, if i do say so myself.
i dont personally chnage anything either (seeing as im a science captain in a shield stripper build), and now that i understand what you are saying "my build is better then yours" isnt the case. the pvp build even built for pvp will usually be better because a pvp build is maximized to do damage. and unlike in pvp (as i stated before) pve npc's dont have resitances to be overcome. so the pve'r uses his build without ever having to worry about this. a pvp'r has to worry about this so maximizes his build to take that into account. so when they shoot at something that has no defense its more effective.
a pvp build can do everything your pve build can do AND do pvp.
normally i agree but every game ive ever played has had some sort of one shot one kill ability.
99% of first person shooters its usually the head.
most tric kills ive gotten have either been after the target is already damage or ive taken their shields down, or they get hit by multiple tric mines at a time. (my dispersal launches 3 at a time)
the only problem with tric mines is that tactical abilites boost them, and oh yeah... thats their job. ya know? to boost damage. they apparently do it very well.
I'm not sure you understand quite how long ten seconds is. Try counting it out aloud.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
dont most tactical powers last only 10 seconds? so how long then do you think it should take to take out a non-weak player? ie a science or cruiser?
so going on that math, the escort should last 10 seconds against another escort. so then that means a cruiser should last only 13 seconds against a escort?
-_- so the sci ship should last less then 10 seconds since it has less health then the escort?
this obviously doesnt take shields into the health mix?
right. my point is that its tactical captains captian powers that lead to insane tric spike damage. so... just like with how tacitcal captain powers boost science damage powers. apparently its "working as intended"
but that example is the basis for the thing. you cant take just the hull of a ship to determine if its the "weak health" of the bunch making it more of a target for being targeted. shields should factor into the health for that.
ive also read from borticus that=
pvp has no connection to the borg or romulans or fleets (kerrat and otha are pretty borg heavy last i checked)
only fleet missions earn fleet marks (foundry missions last i checked arnt fleet missions)
science is being looked at (hahahaha)
pvp is important to them (HAHAHAHA)
just saying....
Is this whole game filled with whinning children?
This is the same Tricobalt mine that many laughed at just a few months ago. They only thing that has changed is how the BOff powers effect them, making them a viable weapon finally.
R.I.P
A Tricobalt mine is a Tactical weapon is it not? I can understand the grievance with Tac Captain powers buffing science power damage but a Tricobalt is a weapon and the Tac powers where designed to buff it just like energy weapons or torpedos.
R.I.P
It's one of those things - that actually makes sense in a world of min/max.
If they didn't have a distinct advantage that fit into the min/max calculations, they wouldn't be used. FotM tends to roll with whatever is broken on the positive side. Something is working too good, bam - FotM. It gets toned down and players move on to the next broken thing.
It's a constant dance of imbalance, as players chase after whatever broken mechanic/item/etc that gives them an advantage in the game...
edit: And I still agree with what was said in the Temp thread - that it's not the Trics that are at issue themselves, but rather the unintended consequences of other items that were added and how those work in conjunction with them. Going after Trics won't fix the issues...