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New lockbox and it's impact on PvP, take two

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  • falloutx23falloutx23 Member Posts: 456
    edited September 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    No. Don't. Those that label themselves as "the PvP community" are not mature enough to make such decisions, as this thread clearly shows.

    I would certainly rather trust the Devs than those guys.

    Seeing as how you post here more than the majority of us, what does that make you? Your as much a know it all as any of us are sophie
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    "Approximately 13 seconds" is a reference to the Omega-13 from Galaxy Quest. We started out with a 13-second duration, but it felt far too long and it eventually landed at 7 seconds.
    .

    ^^this settles it... now I definately must have this ship... just check my fleet name... :)
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  • corsair114corsair114 Member Posts: 276
    edited September 2012
    hurleybird wrote: »
    The thing you need to understand is that there is no such thing as perfect balance. Well, there is, like checkers, but in a video game perfect balance tends to make things boring. Some abilities and items are always going to be more powerful than others, and even without changing anything in the game, the more powerful abilities can vary as the metagame does.

    I understand that just fine. There must always be situational counters in a videogame, ones that are viable, useful, and not all-encompassing in their strength. Perfect balance would be having a huge number of choices that are all situationally overpowered and, equally, situationally underpowered when faced with their counters. When you have something that is a much, much better strategy/power/weapon than everything else, it destroys much of the game because you can either use it or lose. It makes the game binary (STO kinda has this problem in space combat with damage and healing at the moment, with the tie-breaker Science BOff powers being a bit less useful than they could stand to be).

    With regards to the Team-freeze ability these consoles offer, I have to ask, where's the counter? I don't think you really risk spreading out enough to keep from getting overwhelmed because you'll suffer too much loss of focus damage potential or too little cross-healing and become extremely vulnerable to being ganked. If you cluster up, it becomes extremely easy for just one guy on the other team to take 2-3 of your ships out of the fight, massively swinging the numbers advantage in favor of his team, which leads to likely much easier kills.
    That being said, there is a simple design rule: The more powerful something is the harder it should be to use. The reverse, where powerful abilities are easy to use, negatively effects the meta-game. Just because something is powerful doesn't mean it's overpowered, but for the record I agree that if something is flat out overpowered you cannot balance it based on making it hard to use.[ For example, an unstoppable combo that takes you from full health to dead in a fighting game, but needs to be executed perfectly is still poor design, even if only a dozen people are able to master it.

    My point was, perhaps, framed poorly. Lemme try again? What I'm saying is gating an attack or ability behind an extremely difficult input does not have any bearing on whether or not it was overpowered. Lemme give an example (I hope this helps): If Ryu SF2:ST had an attack that let you instantly win the game if you hit QCF>P (just executing the input equals victory), it'd be hideously overpowered. It'd define the game and the only way to beat it qould be to take Ryu and try and execute it faster. If you changed the input to HCF>HCB>360>P+K, the attack would be just as overpowered for exactly the same reasons the first version of it was overpowered.

    You really shouldn't, and can't, use input difficulty as a way of balancing abilities because it often just leads to abilities that are hard to execute but still game breaking. If an attack is too powerful for a simple input, it's still probably going to be too powerful on a hard input because of what the ability does on its own.

    I hope that was a little clearer than my first post.

    QCF = Quarter Circle Forward
    HCF = Half Circle Forward
    HCB = Half Circle Back
    360 = Full Circle Motion w/ stick
    P = Punch (any)
    K = Kick (any)
    Hurleybird = Knows all of that, though.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited September 2012
    corsair114 wrote: »
    My point was, perhaps, framed poorly. Lemme try again? What I'm saying is gating an attack or ability behind an extremely difficult input does not have any bearing on whether or not it was overpowered. Lemme give an example (I hope this helps): If Ryu SF2:ST had an attack that let you instantly win the game if you hit QCF>P (just executing the input equals victory), it'd be hideously overpowered. It'd define the game and the only way to beat it qould be to take Ryu and try and execute it faster. If you changed the input to HCF>HCB>360>P+K, the attack would be just as overpowered for exactly the same reasons the first version of it was overpowered.

    You really shouldn't, and can't, use input difficulty as a way of balancing abilities because it often just leads to abilities that are hard to execute but still game breaking. If an attack is too powerful for a simple input, it's still probably going to be too powerful on a hard input because of what the ability does on its own.

    Yes, agreed, but that's not really the same as letting the set bonus also target allies as a form of balance. You aren't simply making the ability harder to execute -- you're making it more difficult to get desired result when you execute it. Big difference.

    Moving your timeship 5km away from any friendly and within 5km of the majority (but not all) of the enemy team is always going to be telegraphed to some extent. It's not just up to you and your team to execute it well, it's up to the other team not realizing what you're doing until it's too late. The better you play the harder it will be for them to detect it, and the better they play the harder it will be to set it up. You're taking a skill that previously couldn't be countered, and turning it into one that can be.

    That being said, maybe the better idea is to lower the range to 3km, or hell, you could both lower the range and make it friendly fire at the same time. It is just a set bonus after all, not a standalone ability, it doesn't need to be insanely powerful when it's free.

    corsair114 wrote: »
    Hurleybird = Knows all of that, though.

    Yup, favorite fighting game back in the day was One Must Fall 2097. The RPG elements were way ahead of their time.
  • fakehilbertfakehilbert Member Posts: 252 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Easy solution: make it only affect NPCs.

    This way it is still incredibly powerful in PVP because of the heal (although we really don't need any more heals / damage immunities in PVP at the moment) and retains its usefulness for PVE.

    Sounds like a solution to many PVP issues that someone proposed a while back...


    But of course none of this will happen. And then the devs will give us their "Wow. You are stacking APA and CRF? We never expected this. You are way outside of our planned scenarios."-look when they see that it is comparatively easy to TBR a healer and have a ship evasive to past him and cast that 5km stun bubble on him (but not the rest of the team) and then scoring a kill while their healer is disabled.
    The only reason this won't be quite as easy (but just as annoying) as it sounds is the completely excessive selfhealing at the moment.


    Every couple of weeks there is a "we need a pug queue" thread. Maybe we could have a queue with no P2W/Doffs/Lockbox ships instead?
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited September 2012
    Every couple of weeks there is a "we need a pug queue" thread. Maybe we could have a queue with no P2W/Doffs/Lockbox ships instead?

    Now there's a thought! ;)
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Great tacs now have access to MW3 and SNB.

    i know i know, engies are still the best, sci is misunderstood, and tacs give up everything and the whole world for the damage they do, right, Mav?
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    You are assuming that there is still a timecop organization some time in the future that cares about this. You are also assuming that this showup of damn useful ships precisely when the Federation is in its greates trouble is not intended, or seen as a predestination paradox (as in, it was always supposed to happen so that the Federation as we know it will survive).

    Canon-wise, there is absolutely nothing disturbing about this lockbox.

    Game-balance wise, it is impossible to tell right now without having tried it out. But there are worse things than an Omega 13 in this game, and they didn't break it either.

    im convinced its your goal in life to be wrong about absolutely everything.
    No one has answered my question, "How can a single Department of Temporal Investigations stop whole fleets of Tholian, KDF and their Mirror counterpart timeships from leaving future tech all over space-time?"

    it would be as simple as 1 man getting passed an assignment, he would quite literally have all the time in the world to complete this assignment. preventing 1 person from doing 1 thing could likely have stopped the chain of events that would have led to all this stuff featured in this lock box. under NO circumstances would they allow 29th century hardware to exist and be retrofitted for use 400 years in the past. the fact that these ships exist mean the time cop guys still exist. there is no justifying this, its impossible.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    What an incredibly witty reply to my remarks.

    So you cannot imagine that it might be, for instance, a predetermination paradox? Why not?

    if those 29 century hulls became the new standard in the 25th century, it would have an incalculable effect on ship development from that point on, challenging starfleet in the future in such a way that it would look nothing like the 29th century they were from.

    it would be like a US navy carrier group going 400 years into the past to be used by the 13 colonies

    i don't think this predetermination paradox apply to things that would change literally everything. that more like 1 man was supposed to go back and be his own grandpa or something.
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  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited September 2012
    1. You guys are making the mistake of talking to Sophie again. Things aren't that heated, but you should know that it never ends well. It's only a matter of time, so nip it in the bud.

    2. We're PvPers, not RPers. Who cares whether or not these things make sense with Trek canon? Keep the discussion on topic to balance implications.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    It seems pretty much that Star Trek technology achieves a plateau somewhere around 2200, after which progress is slowed down a lot when compared to early 21st century rates. Hence the Enterprise-F uses the same energ sources as the NX-01 enterprise, and the same overall warp and sublight technology, even weapronry is quite similar in its basic tech.

    In a predetermination paradox situation, obviously the components that can be salvaged (and were thus not taken by the Tholians) are not that far advanced that they would chance the 29th century where they came from.



    Nope. More like sending back a Nimitz class carrier back into the 70s. Not a big deal, actually.


    plateaued? oh hell no. the advances in warp speed alone discount that. the NX topped out at war 5 was only going 125 times faster then C, cruiser at warp 4 was only 64 times. voyager at warp 9.975 was going 1,554 - 1,721 times faster then C. and weapons? in TWOK phaser strikes did thermal damage and maybe cut into and breached the hull, in the 24th century they could dissolve a large portion of a ship per hit.

    the time difference between enterprise and the next generation is only about 200 years. theirs a 400 year difference between 2409 and the 29th century. daniels said they tinkered with time travel devices in high school, they can travel through time and manipulate it at will. sorry, no plateau at all, acceleration is more like it, with more and more species being added to the federation over time.

    they would have prevented the tholian attempt to subvert their ships in the first place, they can do that because they are 400 years more advanced then the tholians that for no plausible reason were able to steal them to fill up these lock boxes. its would not be ok for the tholians to have all that tech the striped ether, it wouldn't be ok for anyone in a past era to have it. they would have prevented it, because they were around, otherwise they would not have had ships to steal.

    hurleybird wrote: »
    1. You guys are making the mistake of talking to Sophie again. Things aren't that heated, but you should know that it never ends well. It's only a matter of time, so nip it in the bud.

    2. We're PvPers, not RPers. Who cares whether or not these things make sense with Trek canon? Keep the discussion on topic to balance implications.

    im only responding because its not balance related. being an actual star trek fan that cares about the integrity of the canon, and its far more intact then people give it credit for, does not make me an rp'er.

    whats being said should be as important to cryptic as the balance implications of all this, but it looks like all that maters in the end is how desirable they can make a thing and how much money they can extort from those that want it and cant control themselves.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    thats all fanfic level theories. we know the way they act in canon, they are dead serious about all this stuff. if they were ever put in a position were they thought they might have to lend ships to a case in the past, they would simply remove the situation that put them in that position from time it self. they never did anything other then act as proxies or directly intervene them selves to change 1 incident a certain way. the fact that they exist in their current state means they did not need to donate ships to the past.

    we know next to nothing about the specifics of future tech, every time they were featured with the show's crews they went out of their way to not expose them to anything they didnt have to. how long have we used guns? they advanced considerably during this time, its a same thing for starship fundamentals. there is no indication that there was some tech dark ages between the 25th and 29th century. we have only seen what has happened in the first 200 years of the federation, there is nothing concreet past that. 400 years later who knows what fundimentals they use.
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  • realuniqueonerealuniqueone Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    meh...

    I've been loosing to camera bugs, the game's inablility to cope with this network it runs over (powers not responding 65% of the time), bugships, other misc lockbox ships, and other iwin buttons for so long now I really don't care any more. How much worse can it really get?

    Relax. Take a deep breath... and then die with some honor (against absurdity) like the rest of us already do!


    That is all.
    >>> UniqueOne - Providing you with easy PVP kills since Feb 2012 <<<
  • degalusmedivandegalusmedivan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The last weeks i only look in the forums to see if they bring something worth to pay .... i mean to play in the game. But hey I waiting for a cstore ship but we get lockbox charunlock ultraships again. And again it destroy the only worth to play point in the game for me - pvp.
    Ultimate P2W is nearly complete and all content we get only drive me more away from the game.
    Starbases was funny before they hit the holodeck, after it .... they eat up the currency u need to get Zen ... yea ... but hey they dont realy add something worth in the "zen"store so i dont need the zens lol.
    *checking Zen* Wohoo 1000 Zen from Lifetime and nothing to buy ....
    But back to topic: This new AOE slow effect will kill Bops even more... and if this effect kicks u out of cloak in your brel ... yea u know what happens.

    I go back to a Closed Beta where i move some tons and produce some scrap metal. They understand how to make pvp and pay attention to the players.
    But i continue my stalking of STO maybe they add something in the future what i want to buy *good joke*

    .
    .
    .
    sry for this post but everybody have a limit of patience
  • kinetic78kinetic78 Member Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    meh...

    I've been loosing to camera bugs, the game's inablility to cope with this network it runs over (powers not responding 65% of the time), bugships, other misc lockbox ships, and other iwin buttons for so long now I really don't care any more. How much worse can it really get?

    Relax. Take a deep breath... and then die with some honor (against absurdity) like the rest of us already do!


    That is all.



    As long as your ams button works you will be fine :p
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Canon-wise, there is absolutely nothing disturbing about this lockbox.

    Your absolutely right.
    Often I look back fondly on the Enterprise series and Archer regaling of the days the Time Cops started raffling thier vessels back through history to the highest bidder.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,608 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Your absolutely right.
    Often I look back fondly on the Enterprise series and Archer regaling of the days the Time Cops started raffling thier vessels back through history to the highest bidder.

    Don't worry man the Foundries of Cryp... Er I mean the Future...

    Can turn just as many ships as the present can pay for. :)
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Here we see your ad hominem attack:
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Those that label themselves as "the PvP community" are not mature...
    Here we see your feelings on such:
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    That is not a mistake. The mistake is resorting to ad hominems and that kind of stuff. Although I prefer people who are unable to avoid that mistake to not reply at all, yes.
    By your own logic you prefer that you would not reply at all.

    Can anybody point me at the info for the cd reduction doffs Mai mentioned?

    Also, I am hesitant to say the sky is falling before it hits me on the head but 5 km on the set bonus seems a bit much. We'll see though.
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited September 2012
    havam wrote: »
    Great tacs now have access to MW3 and SNB.

    i know i know, engies are still the best, sci is misunderstood, and tacs give up everything and the whole world for the damage they do, right, Mav?

    More like Engies are the best choice to run the triple SNB doffs, can still run glider the most safely and NOW get a second MW and a Time Stop.

    You wanted them to buff engies? Well here it is. The big loser here is Sci Captains. Tacs can't do TRIBBLE without their damage, and with only partial buffs up (in an attempt to "have something in the bag post SNB" their damage is TRIBBLE thanks to resistances. But at least tacs still have Something. Sci captains now, just completely lost their stick in pvp.

    A tac is giving up at least one SDO (which is valuable tanking) for SNB doff space. And valuable heals for a glider.

    The eng in both cases can just go "to you I say peh Mr Tac. RSF is better than both the borg proc and SDO".
    A target with no buffs, and no ability to receive heals will die, in seconds to even an Eng Cruiser. (especially if said cruiser is loaded up on Lolarons, and plas) Cryptic just gave engineers the ultimate pair of gifts. free buff removal, and a mega enemy healer shutdown, and a second Miracle Worker. If you wanted eng scort to be hax, you just got the tools to do it there buddy. Enjoy.
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  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    All of the above is if you are using only the Tipler Cylinder, which comes with the Wells and Korath (Lock Box ships). If you also have the Manheim Device equipped (which comes with the Krenn and Mobius - Lobi Store ships), there is a set bonus applied. That set bonus effect is as follows:

    - All foes within a 5.0k of the position at which the power was activated, will be held in place for 7 seconds.
    ** This effect cannot be resisted.
    - During this time, they will be untargetable and immune to ongoing damaging effects, as well as being immune to knockback and repel.
    - Foes caught in this stasis field do not have their cooldowns affected - they will continue to tick down at the standard rate while held.
    - Friendly targets are unaffected.

    If this explanation raised any further questions or concerns, I'll try and answer them as best I can.

    1. Why wouldn't other timeships be immune to the effects of the Tipler/Manheim combo? Especially if they ALSO have a Tipler device? That would seem to be a reasonable counter to this power... blame it on quantum entanglement at the temporal level if you must.

    2. Why should friendly targets be able to resist the effect? This doesn't really seem to represent any kind of time-freeze or time-rewind if friendlies in the AoE aren't affected. Plus, it's completely unfair for PvP... friendlies will be able to manuver for tactical advantage against ships that can't move or react, and that gets worse if they're able to chain the effect with two or more equipped timeships.

    I can easily envision a scenario where one team has another on the ropes and this gets invoked, allowing the friendlies to heal and buff up while the opposition is helpless.

    3. Why not create a special console available in the Lobi store which provides protection from temporal effects? Not only could it provide some kind of immunity/resistance to the temporal stasis effect above, but maybe also resistance to chroniton procs? Make it equippable only on timeships if you absolutely must.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,608 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    OK I know we like to get all sky is falling on this stuff... but I just want to point out one important thing to remember...

    In order for you to get the set bonus... do you not have to stick both ships on the same toon... man how many people are really going to drop all that $$$ or EC just to load one toon...

    Unless I am missing something and the consoles themselves with be on the lobi store on there own.... which is only a bit better... Really are we worried about teams of people spending 200 bucks each to get a set bonus?
  • ghostyandfrostyghostyandfrosty Member Posts: 864
    edited September 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    OK I know we like to get all sky is falling on this stuff... but I just want to point out one important thing to remember...

    In order for you to get the set bonus... do you not have to stick both ships on the same toon... man how many people are really going to drop all that $$$ or EC just to load one toon...

    Unless I am missing something and the consoles themselves with be on the lobi store on there own.... which is only a bit better... Really are we worried about teams of people spending 200 bucks each to get a set bonus?

    How many pvpers have bought from gold farmers to get their favorite weapons? How many people, spent hundreds of dollars to get Bug ships?

    I think the answer is pretty obvious really.
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