I can't really agree here, premades DO ruin PVP, if there was a separate queue for people in groups of more then two it wouldn't be a problem. If you want to play with your friends thats not a problem, playing with friends is good, but you know how they play, you know what they use and what ship they pilot, and in most cases you're all or some at least on TS or Vent so there are so many advantages over potential PUGs. There needs to be a queue for groups any bigger then 2 so they can at least fight other groups on equal terms.
If it's just you and one other friend then join the normal ones where newer players would join alone, that way if there's 5 of you then there's a good chance you'd see at lest 2/5 of your premade on the other side and assuming your of a similar ability, the match will be balanced and a balanced match where you couldn't pick the winning side because it's so equal is always the best of PVP.
I call for two PVP Arena queues, regardless of mixing factions or not, for singles & pairs plus one for any groups numbering 3 or more. Problem solved.
Except for 1 problem. This is a team oriented game. It was designed to be played by teams of 5. If you don't want to find a group to fight with then you are taking your chances with PUGs. That is just the way it is. You will never get rid of "premades*", and you will never get a separate "premade" queue from Cryptic, never.
When I got tired of being ROFLstomped by better teams, I found some friends and we did something about it, when that group broke up I accepted Biebs' invite to Pandas. That's the proper way to handle the situation. Teamplay is the nature of the game, it is how it was envisioned and how it was made. Anyone who fails to, or refuses to, accept that is doing it wrong. Honestly, would you queue up for Elite STF's without finding people who knew what they were doing first? No? Then why would you PUG your way through something that is orders of magnitude more complex and difficult?
Use OPVP, find a team, kick some butt. I've been doing this a lot lately, and it works.
Yes, there are some premades out there that put it on full strength when fighting pugs with the intent of ROFLstomping them, but usually, a team of 5 from the same fleet did little more than make sure they had an escort and a subnuke. Everything else is gravy.
*I also disagree with your definition of "Premade". A premade is a group of 5 players with ships and skills designed specifically to compliment each other. It is not 3-5 random fleetmates or friends who team up because they are the only ones online.
Except for 1 problem. This is a team oriented game. It was designed to be played by teams of 5. If you don't want to find a group to fight with then you are taking your chances with PUGs. That is just the way it is. You will never get rid of "premades*", and you will never get a separate "premade" queue from Cryptic, never.
When I got tired of being ROFLstomped by better teams, I found some friends and we did something about it, when that group broke up I accepted Biebs' invite to Pandas. That's the proper way to handle the situation. Teamplay is the nature of the game, it is how it was envisioned and how it was made. Anyone who fails to, or refuses to, accept that is doing it wrong. Honestly, would you queue up for Elite STF's without finding people who knew what they were doing first? No? Then why would you PUG your way through something that is orders of magnitude more complex and difficult?
Use OPVP, find a team, kick some butt. I've been doing this a lot lately, and it works.
Yes, there are some premades out there that put it on full strength when fighting pugs with the intent of ROFLstomping them, but usually, a team of 5 from the same fleet did little more than make sure they had an escort and a subnuke. Everything else is gravy.
*I also disagree with your definition of "Premade". A premade is a group of 5 players with ships and skills designed specifically to compliment each other. It is not 3-5 random fleetmates or friends who team up because they are the only ones online.
I agree with your statement regarding STFs and that PvP is much more complex and difficult. I remember the way the original STF mission accepting windows stating "this is a 5 man special task force mission" I don't remember such a warning when being told to check out PvP queues.
plus newer players are going to learn about playing the game in their own way, no player really experiences the game the same way. after all this thread is more so about the new players first experiences with PvP and how we could gain more PvP interest in this community rather than using the queues to plow our way to dilithium heaven...
not every player will find a team before queueing and not every player wants to be roflsqueeshed in 5 mins.
me? I don't mind getting roflsqueeshed aslong as I have fun... but there is only so much "fun" in getting roflsqueeshed.
I agree with your statement regarding STFs and that PvP is much more complex and difficult. I remember the way the original STF mission accepting windows stating "this is a 5 man special task force mission" I don't remember such a warning when being told to check out PvP queues.
plus newer players are going to learn about playing the game in their own way, no player really experiences the game the same way. after all this thread is more so about the new players first experiences with PvP and how we could gain more PvP interest in this community rather than using the queues to plow our way to dilithium heaven...
not every player will find a team before queueing and not every player wants to be roflsqueeshed in 5 mins.
me? I don't mind getting roflsqueeshed aslong as I have fun... but there is only so much "fun" in getting roflsqueeshed.
RachelJ88
New players shouldn't be under any misconceptions about the harsh realities of PvP. Taking it easy on them serves no purposes but to set them up for failure later. You have to be able to see how far you must travel to plan the journey, don't you think? Taking it easy, or limiting exposure to more advanced/skilled players or teams is a self-defeating policy.
This is also why I say ego plays a part. If you can't accept that you have room to improve, then you won't. PvE in this game makes you think that you are awesome, the next best thing to Kirk. Allowing that mentality to continue in PvP accomplishes nothing but setting up a mostly underskilled player base. That makes no sense at all.
Being stomped by pre-teamed players, over and over, isn't fun. That is why I suggest doing something about it instead of allowing it to continue until you quit playing altogether.
*I also disagree with your definition of "Premade". A premade is a group of 5 players with ships and skills designed specifically to compliment each other. It is not 3-5 random fleetmates or friends who team up because they are the only ones online.
First, thank you for this. Before I addressed the OP and the carebear squad in here, I wanted to get that out of the way.
Now, to the Carebears and their sympathizers.
Premades aren't killing pvp. Bad/Terribad Failboat captain pugs are. Seriously, a large portion of the Pug Heroes have been playing for two years and change now and Still don't do things as basic as Balancing their own shields. Let alone taking correct builds. Some of these pug stars have been known to still come to this forum and whine about how broken the game is. Because they refuse to even handle the basics on their ships properly.
You can't help them, because they are too stupid to improve. Believe me I've tried. I was nice and everything. You can't have healthy pvp as long as the pve is so mind numbingly TRIBBLE, that you can literally win just by setting weapon power on max, and smashing the space bar. Because the 99 percent of the other gameplay in this game doesn't encourage Thinking, Strategy, or Solid Builds. So these wanna be pvpers would rather blame the game, and their opponents because clearly they are doing things right cause it works everywhere else!
Then you have Dilithium Tourists, who only que for the rewards that are stupidly equal to that of the winning team. So there is no incentive to Try what so ever vs just rolling the face 'round the keyboard and win or lose taking your rewards.
Then you have the AFKers that don't even leave the spawn when they get in. Because hey it's free dilith, and EC! You don't have to try to do anything to get rewarded after all.
Those three groups of players right there are damning enough as it is.
Then you have a fourth group, the disenfranchised pvper. The guys that left the game, because pvp has been urinated on, tea bagged, and dirty sanchezed by Cryptic, at every single opportunity cryptic has had. These guys were phenomenal pvpers, some of them were even better as teachers. They also made up the lion share of the Skilled population. So any chance at fighting Decent Premades in a pug, are by and large (outside of a specific opvp pug team) are pretty much shot down and dead. So the ones that remain, have banded together in about 4 major fleets from what I see when I look at the community. Because that's all that's really left of the Skilled population. 4 to 5 fleets worth of Skilled players. It's overly concentrated, because the Skilled players all know each other, know each others reputations.
These have all been problems, either since launch or since f2p started. And now you have a new, even more detrimental force to be reckoned with. The Star Base. No seriously, who ever was the clown that decided that star base and pvp shouldn't mix, even on a quest reward level, needs to be fired. Period. Now droves of players, who were formerly massive pvpers (even if they weren't High End Skilled) have been effectively removed from the field to go grind this abomination to good game design. There is literally no ability what so ever to improve your starbase through pvp. The best (or rather second best) ships in the game, all come from having Military upgraded Starbases. This requires, doffs, energy credits, dilithium (and pvp is far from the most efficient way to get dilith), skill points, (not an issue) and Fleet Marks. Everyone wants the Better Version of their existing ships. So they have to grind this Dumb TRIBBLE Starbase. The system is set up, so that at minimum people are just now getting their T3 Military upgrades.
These starbases also discourage team play, in that regard because it's a Pve Experience, and pve in this game means just roll the face 'round the board and watch things go boom boom. So the only people left quing are the utter diehards for pvp. The 4 to 5 group (which usually isn't even from the same fleet), and then what ever 4 to 5 combination of Tourists, and Terribad Captains are lurking about and maybe 1 to 2 Skilled players that are pugging it. They also strongly discourage people from making New Fleets because of the nigh impossible to grind and pvp nature of the dumb TRIBBLE starbase.
A Premade Que, will not address any of this. Because frankly anyone stuck with a Tourist, and Terribad captain are probably going to lose badly enough as it is, let alone when you throw mr AFKer into the mix.
What becomes the excuse when you get rolled by a Pug, consisting of say, Bieber, Aquitaine985 (Regulus), Mavairo, CaptainHorizon and some Tourist? I can tell you, you're probably going to get stomped 15 and 0 to that if you're in a typical sto pug. Easy. So what is the excuse then? None of said people had to que up together prior to that match, could just be a random team right there. They certainly aren't a true premade even if they stayed teamed all night after that match.
First, thank you for this. Before I addressed the OP and the carebear squad in here, I wanted to get that out of the way.
You're Welcome! That particular misnomer really grates on me for some reason.
What becomes the excuse when you get rolled by a Pug, consisting of say, Bieber, Aquitaine985 (Regulus), Mavairo, CaptainHorizon and some Tourist? I can tell you, you're probably going to get stomped 15 and 0 to that if you're in a typical sto pug. Easy. So what is the excuse then? None of said people had to que up together prior to that match, could just be a random team right there. They certainly aren't a true premade even if they stayed teamed all night after that match.
That's not a team you describe, but a force of nature and yes, it does happen. Sometimes the queue gods are even nice enough to fill your team out with fleetmates who just happen to be on ventand just happen to be queued. Even though no planning went into that happening. (which it did, just last week as a matter of fact. 5 Pandas queued up, 2 were teamed and the other 3 were PUGging it, and the queues gave us the other 3 when the match started. It looked like a premade but wasn't).
Guys, guys, we really need to avoid PuGstomping. Look, I know it's fun and all, and really it is. Because if we keep doing what we're doing, we're gonna end up killing PvP for sure.
I can agree with your message but as a PuGer I do not fear the premades when I meet them and see them as a challenge with a chance to test me abilities. Possibly even learn a thing or two that will make me a better player.
Unfortunately until they find a good way to seperate the Premades from the PuGs in the ques, getting roflstomped as a PuG team will just be a fact that the individual player learns to live with without ego, becuase the honest truth is that hurt egoes is at the heart of why many cry foul of the Premades.
Now, to the Carebears and their sympathizers.
Premades aren't killing pvp. Bad/Terribad Failboat captain pugs are.
No. Premades aren't "killing pvp", they're just stifling its growth. One of the key demographics for a F2P MMO is the constant influx of new players.
A new player following their mission chains is told to go do Ker'rat at level 6, where they get stomped. It's like negative advertising - and for most people, it'll keep them away for a long, long time.
I didn't do badly, even though it was painfully obvious 2 minutes in that the other side was organized. They moved as a group, while my team split into 3 different directions. I actually managed to destroy 2 or 3 of them, and even survive tanking 3-4 at a time. We still lost horribly though (15 to 0 sounds accurate). I've been VA for a while now, and still feel zero drive to try PvP again.
Certainly, there are those who want to rise to the challenge, or want revenge. That amount will not be a major portion of the incoming F2P players, who will move on to another game if they're not having fun.
Actually, it's more that horrible intro into PvP that will drive new players away. Seriously, PvP at level 6? That's just stupid. Don't tell us "Oh, they don't have to do it yet", because we still see questions about people trying to complete "Aid the Planet" missions - which are given 1 level before they can actually do them.
- I log on, planning to spend an hour or two pvping
- I que up
- I meet a premade, 5 minutes later the match is over, 0-15
- I que up again
- I meet a premade, 5 minutes later the match is over, 0-15
- I log off.
That's it. If I'm not having fun, I log.
3rd time try TRIBBLE and splode, don't log out. Not that its much better but usually there are no premades in there and if there are, they need to break the team. Plus you may end up on tv lol (thissler's movies). Lately I seldom do arenas due to this pug stomp sickness.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
What becomes the excuse when you get rolled by a Pug, consisting of say, Bieber, Aquitaine985 (Regulus), Mavairo, CaptainHorizon and some Tourist? I can tell you, you're probably going to get stomped 15 and 0 to that if you're in a typical sto pug. Easy. So what is the excuse then? None of said people had to que up together prior to that match, could just be a random team right there. They certainly aren't a true premade even if they stayed teamed all night after that match.
If you not noticed, people never/rarely complain about getting roflstomped by mix of players coming from known PvP fleets. They (and me too) usually complain about being roflstomped by team with 3 Pandas or 4 Critz or whoever else in them. Those 3 or 4 may get into game because of sher luck (unluck) but still are seen as premade.
Being stomped by pre-teamed players, over and over, isn't fun. That is why I suggest doing something about it instead of allowing it to continue until you quit playing altogether.
Doing what? PvE even on elite is stupidly easy, PvP is either just as easy or stupidly hard. Middle ground is almost non-existing. There is no low level PvP to learn in small steps and no way to learn in any other way then to find a group of players to form a team or join a PvP oriented fleet. Not everyone wants this.
So what way a new player has to learn PvP? And what to learn he has in roflstomp? That he is a newb, a one from herd of sheeps that has to stay and be cut by few butchers?
I remember my own experience with PvP. After doing PvE content for the first time - year or so ago, several months before F2P) I tried PvP because there was nothing else to do. Of course I moved against Klingons, no fun in fighting another Fed. Got roflstomped once. Then again, again and I left the game for few months. No fun in being stomped into the ground.
I love Star Trek so I returned and after I realized that season 4 brought nothing new in PvE I turned to PvP. And I had enough luck to get into the game when low level PvP queues were still active and could level my toon through PvP only. Learned a lot before I got to the VA level and I was relatively good player - enough to have fun even if I met "premade" (not enough to win in most cases). If I had returned today I would have no such luxury, no way to learn in small steps - I would need to level via PvE and then jump into PvP to be stomped again as in the first try. And most probably I would have left and never returned to STO.
Ok, it's not fault of premades. It's Cryptic fault for making PvP into what it is now. But, frankly premades only make it worse for new players that start trying PvP and have the bad luck of meeting some premade before they learn enough to be competitive or at least hold the ground for some time.
A Premade Que, will not address any of this. Because frankly anyone stuck with a Tourist, and Terribad captain are probably going to lose badly enough as it is, let alone when you throw mr AFKer into the mix.
What becomes the excuse when you get rolled by a Pug, consisting of say, Bieber, Aquitaine985 (Regulus), Mavairo, CaptainHorizon and some Tourist? I can tell you, you're probably going to get stomped 15 and 0 to that if you're in a typical sto pug. Easy. So what is the excuse then? None of said people had to que up together prior to that match, could just be a random team right there. They certainly aren't a true premade even if they stayed teamed all night after that match.
I suspect you may be mistaking a cause for an effect here - certainly, AFKers, 'failboat' captains, etc are all annoying, and contribute little to nothing of value to the PvP community, but I think it makes more sense to look at those people as the effect of the problem, not its cause.
In other words, it's worth examining for a second WHY someone might play in those ways. Generally, my assumption is that players of all types (newbs, noobs, elite pvpers, rpers, failboaters, kirk-wannabes, casuals, f2pers, p2wers, etc) share a common goal - to have fun. Certainly sitting at the spawn for 15 minutes can't be a 'fun' experience, so why on earth would someone CHOOSE that over participation? The obvious answer is that PvP is not engaging or fun enough for those people to want to put in the effort it takes to get good at it.
Even that is pretty simplistic, however, because it begs the question of why people feel that PvP isn't fun, which is what I think the OP is speaking to. Far from being a 'carebear', I think the OP is saying (correctly) that Premades (or even just 'quasi-premades') stomping on PuGs is one factor that leads to people concluding that PvP isn't worth the effort.
Is it the primary factor? I don't know. Would there still be useless afkers even in a world where PvP was totally awesome? Of course. The point, I think, is to recognize that a 15-0 match where you have people going AFK, warping out, removing shields, etc is no fun for EVERYONE, and recognize that BOTH teams have some responsibility for making it better. If you are rolling the other team 7 or 8 to 0, maybe it's time to pull back from their spawn for a minute, and suggest that they get organized and use some focus fire, or maybe split your own team up into smaller groups so that you aren't just 5v1 against people as they respawn, or whatever.
Similarly, if you are in a match and your team sucks, try to get them organized, try to get them playing, and don't quit in a huff if your team gets outplayed. It happens - try to learn from it. If you are really on a hapless team, try asking the opposition to back off and let your players regroup - let them know you are TRYING to improve, and maybe they will be willing to tone it back a bit to help teach other players, etc.
Most importantly, however, both sides need to stop trying to 'punish' the other team for 'ruining' their fun. Don't just stomp a team out of spite because they 'aren't good enough' or 'aren't willing to learn', take some responsibility for your own fun, and see what you can do to make the match better. On the losing side, same thing - if you are not having fun, or thinking about warping out, think about what YOU can do to make the match better, don't just give up.
No. Premades aren't "killing pvp", they're just stifling its growth. One of the key demographics for a F2P MMO is the constant influx of new players.
A new player following their mission chains is told to go do Ker'rat at level 6, where they get stomped. It's like negative advertising - and for most people, it'll keep them away for a long, long time.
I didn't do badly, even though it was painfully obvious 2 minutes in that the other side was organized. They moved as a group, while my team split into 3 different directions. I actually managed to destroy 2 or 3 of them, and even survive tanking 3-4 at a time. We still lost horribly though (15 to 0 sounds accurate). I've been VA for a while now, and still feel zero drive to try PvP again.
Certainly, there are those who want to rise to the challenge, or want revenge. That amount will not be a major portion of the incoming F2P players, who will move on to another game if they're not having fun.
Actually, it's more that horrible intro into PvP that will drive new players away. Seriously, PvP at level 6? That's just stupid. Don't tell us "Oh, they don't have to do it yet", because we still see questions about people trying to complete "Aid the Planet" missions - which are given 1 level before they can actually do them.
I've watched PvP die. Do you know how it died? Better games kept coming out. Dedicated Pvpers left. Premades are actually a rare thing in the ques. Most nights I que up there's no premades. It's pugs. 90 percent of the time.
It also died because frankly despite the devs lies, the population for this game did not Rise what so ever when f2p launched. Because STO is still Failsauce to the larger gaming community. That thing cryptic was like "we don't need really!"
The other group could just be better players. Moving together and cross healing does not = automatic premade.
If you not noticed, people never/rarely complain about getting roflstomped by mix of players coming from known PvP fleets. They (and me too) usually complain about being roflstomped by team with 3 Pandas or 4 Critz or whoever else in them. Those 3 or 4 may get into game because of sher luck (unluck) but still are seen as premade.
Doing what? PvE even on elite is stupidly easy, PvP is either just as easy or stupidly hard. Middle ground is almost non-existing. There is no low level PvP to learn in small steps and no way to learn in any other way then to find a group of players to form a team or join a PvP oriented fleet. Not everyone wants this.
So what way a new player has to learn PvP? And what to learn he has in roflstomp? That he is a newb, a one from herd of sheeps that has to stay and be cut by few butchers?
I remember my own experience with PvP. After doing PvE content for the first time - year or so ago, several months before F2P) I tried PvP because there was nothing else to do. Of course I moved against Klingons, no fun in fighting another Fed. Got roflstomped once. Then again, again and I left the game for few months. No fun in being stomped into the ground.
I love Star Trek so I returned and after I realized that season 4 brought nothing new in PvE I turned to PvP. And I had enough luck to get into the game when low level PvP queues were still active and could level my toon through PvP only. Learned a lot before I got to the VA level and I was relatively good player - enough to have fun even if I met "premade" (not enough to win in most cases). If I had returned today I would have no such luxury, no way to learn in small steps - I would need to level via PvE and then jump into PvP to be stomped again as in the first try. And most probably I would have left and never returned to STO.
Ok, it's not fault of premades. It's Cryptic fault for making PvP into what it is now. But, frankly premades only make it worse for new players that start trying PvP and have the bad luck of meeting some premade before they learn enough to be competitive or at least hold the ground for some time.
You clearly don't get the hate tells that I do if you think people don't complain about that.
I suspect you may be mistaking a cause for an effect here - certainly, AFKers, 'failboat' captains, etc are all annoying, and contribute little to nothing of value to the PvP community, but I think it makes more sense to look at those people as the effect of the problem, not its cause.
In other words, it's worth examining for a second WHY someone might play in those ways. Generally, my assumption is that players of all types (newbs, noobs, elite pvpers, rpers, failboaters, kirk-wannabes, casuals, f2pers, p2wers, etc) share a common goal - to have fun. Certainly sitting at the spawn for 15 minutes can't be a 'fun' experience, so why on earth would someone CHOOSE that over participation? The obvious answer is that PvP is not engaging or fun enough for those people to want to put in the effort it takes to get good at it.
Even that is pretty simplistic, however, because it begs the question of why people feel that PvP isn't fun, which is what I think the OP is speaking to. Far from being a 'carebear', I think the OP is saying (correctly) that Premades (or even just 'quasi-premades') stomping on PuGs is one factor that leads to people concluding that PvP isn't worth the effort.
Is it the primary factor? I don't know. Would there still be useless afkers even in a world where PvP was totally awesome? Of course. The point, I think, is to recognize that a 15-0 match where you have people going AFK, warping out, removing shields, etc is no fun for EVERYONE, and recognize that BOTH teams have some responsibility for making it better. If you are rolling the other team 7 or 8 to 0, maybe it's time to pull back from their spawn for a minute, and suggest that they get organized and use some focus fire, or maybe split your own team up into smaller groups so that you aren't just 5v1 against people as they respawn, or whatever.
Similarly, if you are in a match and your team sucks, try to get them organized, try to get them playing, and don't quit in a huff if your team gets outplayed. It happens - try to learn from it. If you are really on a hapless team, try asking the opposition to back off and let your players regroup - let them know you are TRYING to improve, and maybe they will be willing to tone it back a bit to help teach other players, etc.
Most importantly, however, both sides need to stop trying to 'punish' the other team for 'ruining' their fun. Don't just stomp a team out of spite because they 'aren't good enough' or 'aren't willing to learn', take some responsibility for your own fun, and see what you can do to make the match better. On the losing side, same thing - if you are not having fun, or thinking about warping out, think about what YOU can do to make the match better, don't just give up.
The real solution is actually rather simple and easy to understand. Fix PvE. I should not be able to take a Delta Flyer, into ANY pve at Cap, and not only succeed but NEVER die. Seriously, a Shuttle. It has exactly 2 weapons, and 2 boff slots. Both of which are Ensigns. It's not a matter of me being total hax, it's because the pve is SO BAD it doesn't encourage any defensive strategy, nor offensive one for that matter to succeed.
And THAT is the problem.
Pve should push players as they level, so they can improve their builds as they go, particularly in a game where the devs urinate on pvp.
The thing is, when I roll in a premade in the ques and we back away from the puggees and let them regroup more often than not, they don't. When I pug and start chatting to people and showing them what to do or look out for, they don't care. Because they can't just Jim Kirk Target Dummy the issue. Pugs don't follow target keybinds, heal binds. It's Stupid. Because STO attracted the wrong kind of player by and large.
PvP is dead. Making stupid forum posts over and over in the pvp section is worthless and pointless. It's been since beta to " FIX " pvp and you people still cling to false hope.
Let me give you people some hard real life advice. " We the consumer have lost this war not battle, war ". PWE and Cryptic is just making money from you guys and PVE and that is their main focus now because the game is doing badly in order to pay for a dead horse.
I have accepted it along time ago. PvP is this game will always be dead. The only way it will be changed is when someone else buys the STO game from a different company and most importantly a GOOD company which is pretty hard to find now-a-days.
If you want to PvP in a game, try another game. If you guys still want to cling to your false hopes then your a fool.
It's Stupid. Because STO attracted the wrong kind of player by and large.
Or does it? $5.00 USD for a retrait token is a good deal... wait, why do I need to even buy that token... oh to change my build to be better... why do I need to do that again? PVE is no challenge at all save for NWS; even then, all that is is cheating AI and a great many of them. :rolleyes:
I think we are the wrong players for the game because it is very clear that they do not want us. I find it nearly incrediable that any of the developers talk to us or try and fix anything PVP related whatsoever.
Maybe they see a target market in the PVP community that is not being explored fully. IDK. But, we are not as easy to please as the Jim Kirk players because we demand quality control.
Or does it? $5.00 USD for a retrait token is a good deal... wait, why do I need to even buy that token... oh to change my build to be better... why do I need to do that again? PVE is no challenge at all save for NWS; even then, all that is is cheating AI and a great many of them. :rolleyes:
I think we are the wrong players for the game because it is very clear that they do not want us. I find it nearly incrediable that any of the developers talk to us or try and fix anything PVP related whatsoever.
Maybe they see a target market in the PVP community that is not being explored fully. IDK. But, we are not as easy to please as the Jim Kirk players because we demand quality control.
This is what I mean by that earlier statement. Cryptic went for the Basement Level Intelligence of player by and large. To keep those sub normal people playing, they alienated a much larger potential audience. So instead of say having a million or maybe 2 million gamers playing, they wound up with 100k or so morons that barely installed the game by themselves, and -maybe- 50k people of average or above average intelligence.
Proof of this of course is with the D'Derix defender. It was an NPC that could actually -heal- itself and tanked almost in a player esque fashion. The Sub Normals that play this game cried out that it was too hard, and nigh invincible (I killed one in a Shuttle mind you too. I actually had to get a Tric out with my DBB instead of just the DBB and single array that a normal npc requires).
Another shining example was the early revision of stop the signal. People whined that it was impossible to beat because the frigates kept spawning and killing npcs. I not only beat that mission in a Shuttle, at both the earliest level needed, but again at Cap. I even wrote a guide to help people through it, but the Whining and QQ continued. Infact when I posted the guide, and screen shots proving I even did it in a shuttle rather than these morons reexamining their ability at this game they claimed "great so only elite players can beat it!" I was in a God Damn Shuttle. A Shuttle. I even did it an extra hard way by toying with enemy frigates and turned their infinite spawning TRIBBLE against the dreadnought. I used their sorry TRIBBLE as Warp Core Torpedoes and killed them right ontop of that dreadnought.
The result? The Defender was removed from the game again, and the Stop The signal mission got nerfed so hard that you can literally just fly in and press Space Bar and win, rather than need any form of strategy to overcome the challenge.
I started playing this game when it went F2P..and i can tell you when i first started playing PVP (with PUG teams) i was getting absolutely smashed. I did reach out and asked for help and i recieved it from a premade. I was shown all sorts of tips and tricks and layouts to help me not getting slaughtered in seconds (Ty Bieber).
We come to now/the present..As im not in a large fleet (only 2 active) on fed side i still have to PUG que but when i come across a premade i will FIGHT on. I hate losing 0-15 like any other person but i hav a goal. Too try and be the most irrataing thorn in that premade teams side. Hopefully get a few kills (hopefully), but 1) to better myself and 2) to make friends and try to keep PVP alive. There is a 3rd but thats mainly me hoping to beat the person who helped and guided me in PVP......I.E the pupil beating his master lol.
But this game does need new content for PVP...Heck why not just make a map like kerrat with no Borg and no timer reset for people to come and go as they please and just have 1 huge Firefight...Be a place to meet ppl for for future PVP events..
But alas its friday and my PVP night and i do hate spending half of it waiting in a que, the other 40% being owned because of AFK's, not balanced sides, coming up against premades etc etc and the last 10% actually having a cracking game where a team wins by only 1 or 2 kills.
Proof of this of course is with the D'Derix defender. It was an NPC that could actually -heal- itself and tanked almost in a player esque fashion. The Sub Normals that play this game cried out that it was too hard, and nigh invincible (I killed one in a Shuttle mind you too. I actually had to get a Tric out with my DBB instead of just the DBB and single array that a normal npc requires).
I miss that D'Derix Defender! I wish they could replace AI by difficulty setting whereas players that want to fight things like the D'Derix Defender AI could by changing the difficulty setting. Instead, all changing the setting does is give the AI more HP and a damage buff. LAME!!!!
EDIT: I'm going to post something about that in the Feedback Section after I eat lunch! That isn't a bad idea imo.
I have to agree with the OP partly. I am pretty new to PvP and run already in a few premades or at least complete teams from some of the big PvP fleets. If this happens the second or third time i tend to not fight back anymore as its more a slaughter than a fight and really frustrating. They deactivate my engine, my weapons, my shields. If your are not lucky enough to have a good healer in the pug you do not survive for 30 seconds. Most times i am just flying to them, watching the buffs and debuffs they throw on me and read the combatlog to learn how a good team cooperates and what they use. Its really impressive to see this, but this is definitly no fun to fight them.
But of course i do not run into premades all the time. And just to say they should not que because pugs have no chance to fight them would kill PvP even more as they would be forced to fight themselves or just to stay on PvE. Its not as there are hundreds of players waiting for PvP in this game. So the Problem are not the premades, its the lack of PvPers...
PvP is dead. Making stupid forum posts over and over in the pvp section is worthless and pointless. It's been since beta to " FIX " pvp and you people still cling to false hope.
Let me give you people some hard real life advice. " We the consumer have lost this war not battle, war ". PWE and Cryptic is just making money from you guys and PVE and that is their main focus now because the game is doing badly in order to pay for a dead horse.
I have accepted it along time ago. PvP is this game will always be dead. The only way it will be changed is when someone else buys the STO game from a different company and most importantly a GOOD company which is pretty hard to find now-a-days.
If you want to PvP in a game, try another game. If you guys still want to cling to your false hopes then your a fool.
Well, part of me wonders if you're just trolling, but if you're being serious than I feel sad for you. Means you've given up on the game basically, and that's a very sad thing. I still think STO can get back to the glory days, but it's gonna take effort.
Look, the one thing I hope we can all agree on is that PvP is not gonna revive itself. If we just bury our heads in the sand and pretend nothing's wrong, just keep queuing up and hoping for the best, PvP is just gonna continue down its downward spiral until it dies for real.
So what's the answer? I can't say for sure, but I've seen some pretty good suggestions so far. Something as simple as holding back when you're winning 8-0, and asking your opponents to regroup. Or offer to break up the group so that it's not 5-1, but 3v3 and 2v2, or something to that effect.
Look, I'm gonna put my money where my mouth is. My handle in-game is Hunter@ProjectOctober. I'm a member of TRIBBLE. fleet, and I'm more than happy to implement any of the "solutions" we come up with. At the risk of sounding like a carebear, I really do think if we work together we can revive PvP.
So here's a shout out to anyone reading: if you're a newb, noob, failboat, I don't care. Send me a tell, I'll PuG with you and offer any advice I have. And if you're already an experienced PvPer? Let's team up! Because while getting curbstomped 15-0 against a fleet premade is one thing, but you can learn a lot if you are on the same team as a few good PvPers, as long as you're willing to watch and learn.
One thing's for sure. It's one thing to ***** and moan on a forum about this. It's another to actually do something about it. I intend to start. Who's with me?
at lest 2/5 of your premade on the other side and assuming your of a similar ability, the match will be balanced and a balanced match where you couldn't pick the winning side because it's so equal is always the best of PVP.
I still disagree that the problem is "pre-mades". As other people have said, you see good players that get dropped into the queues solo and they still roflstomp the other side, even if the other side is a true premade (5 guys same fleet, assumed voice). I'll fly with a partner, stomp the other side and still get called a hacking premade .
The problem is good builds. People with good complementary builds and pvp knowledge will decimate pugs. Every time. I don't need someone to call targets, I just use the tacscorts target. I know when to snb and keep track of the buffs on targets and the cool down on their RSPs. The only time I need voice or a target macro is if I run into a good team that requires fast switching. The only time good builds won't beat a pve built pug group is if it's 5 scorts or 5 cruisers and no spike. And "singles only" queue doesn't teach the most overpowered part of pvp. Complementary builds provide a gestalt level boost along the pvp powercurve. That scort can do MUCH more damage if he doesn't have to worry about healing as much or running away. I can do much more healing and damage if I don't have to worry about getting tac teams. The more complementary builds in a group the exponentially better that group will do. It's the single most important thing to learn how to do in pvp and singles queues don't encourage it.
This is true of Critz as well. We advertise every day for premades. Some days we get them, some days we don't. In the evening we often have between 6 and 14 active pvpers online and pewpewing. What may not be apparent is that while we normally have 5 in a group, we are very very often running a second or third group with 2 or 3 people in the queues. A lot of nights we do internal premades of 5v5. Last night we were doing internal 6 v 6 premades.
A lot of fleets also don't realize we just want to pew, period. Sure everyone wants to win, but we gladly give out players to help other fleets get to 5 so we can play. EMS does this a lot with us, they have 3 or 4 so one or two guys goes over to their TS so we can have a 5v5 good fight. Just ask in OPVP. We are happy to do this just so we can have someone decent to shoot at. No one wants to shoot bad pugs. It's as bad as pve. But not even voice and coordination can help terribad failcruiser/failscort kirk builds.
anyone who starts getting good then gets poached into the best PVP fleets
Completely disagree, although I'm sure it can seem that way. Critz has only added like 4 or 5 people in the last 5 months, and 4 of them were Coup de Grace whose fleet self destructed. Almost all the folks in Critz have been in since it's founding, and the vast majority came from Pandas. We are just very visible because we are extremely active and have a lot of different characters. Some folks have characters that swap in and out of the Critz fleet to others since we aren't uptight about starbase TRIBBLE
New players shouldn't be under any misconceptions about the harsh realities of PvP. Taking it easy on them serves no purposes but to set them up for failure later. You have to be able to see how far you must travel to plan the journey, don't you think? Taking it easy, or limiting exposure to more advanced/skilled players or teams is a self-defeating policy.
This is also why I say ego plays a part. If you can't accept that you have room to improve, then you won't. PvE in this game makes you think that you are awesome, the next best thing to Kirk. Allowing that mentality to continue in PvP accomplishes nothing but setting up a mostly underskilled player base. That makes no sense at all.
Being stomped by pre-teamed players, over and over, isn't fun. That is why I suggest doing something about it instead of allowing it to continue until you quit playing altogether.
Then maybe it's time that people in OPVP advertise the existance of the channel at the end of each match. New players going into PVP have no idea what to expect. Unless they're MMO-minded and have done PVP in other forms in the past then they'll have a massively rude awakening when PVPers fly into them. If they call hax and leave then **** them. But we have to at least give people the option of finding OPVP and asking for help in some way.
And when I say "help" I mean actual help. Not "LOL if you don't have Drivercoil then you suck!" I mean something useful.
Win-Win really, you get more people into OPVP and once there they learn how to play - More actual PVPers exist, more join fleets, more premades.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Then maybe it's time that people in OPVP advertise the existance of the channel at the end of each match. New players going into PVP have no idea what to expect. Unless they're MMO-minded and have done PVP in other forms in the past then they'll have a massively rude awakening when PVPers fly into them. If they call hax and leave then **** them. But we have to at least give people the option of finding OPVP and asking for help in some way.
And when I say "help" I mean actual help. Not "LOL if you don't have Drivercoil then you suck!" I mean something useful.
Win-Win really, you get more people into OPVP and once there they learn how to play - More actual PVPers exist, more join fleets, more premades.
That's why my Cruiser thread is bound to a hotkey. At the end or start of a match, I press C and my cruiser thread gets linked in zone chat. I'm going to do the same with my science thread.
The Sad Pandas offer help and assistance via our in-game chat channel, "Sad Panda Cubs". If you need or would like help, feel free to join that channel and ask for it. You'll get it. We also sponsor a fleet by the same name that you can join to have other players available for teaming while you learn the mechanics and strategies used in STO PvP. This is not a Panda recruiting method. Our goal is to improve the abilities of new PvPers to make them competetive on the battlefield, and to make them attractive to other PvP fleets.
We are always willing to help, but willingness to be helped is also required.
3rd time try TRIBBLE and splode, don't log out. Not that its much better but usually there are no premades in there and if there are, they need to break the team. Plus you may end up on tv lol (thissler's movies). Lately I seldom do arenas due to this pug stomp sickness.
And now you know how I feel the majority of the times I que up for pvp.
And now you also know why I'm against this idea. Because it's far too easy to roll up tough on pugs.
/agree with the OP, but premades are only a small part of the problem here as to what the community can do to help out PVP in general. Back in SWG the "premade/HAX" factor got so large the last 2 years, the only time I PVPed was putting my jedi in the group that got ROFLstomped and was complaining in general chat. But, my jedi was min/maxed to almost (key word there is almost) able to tank a full team of 8, while still able to throw decent DPS as well.
The large problem is P2W. Those with the money win. P2W consoles, weapons, (largest factor-) ships along with all the nerfs to tanking skills and the base weapons (beams). I believe I even stated this would happen when all the escort pilots were calling for large NERFS (in this forum) to crusiers/abilities/healing and I'm not all that overjoyed that what I thought would happen, did. New players, that have watched the show, see Kirk/Picard/Janeway et al fly their big ships, using BEAMS, and beams have been NERFed into obilivian in this game. They were always the bottom of the ladder but they were viable with the right builds, before, Now? Forget about the beams and go DHCs. So that really means, when you get right down to the crux of the matter, throw away that crusier/Sci and go get that escort. DPS is now king, it trumps healing, it trumps harrasment, it trumps everything. There is no "glass cannon" of STO and I really see no downside to flying an escort that runs the exact same resists as a fully decked excel does.
Ghost's Crusier thread is a great resource but it starts out with the cold, hard, fact of today's STO. Crusiers are support. You can't even min/max your way out of that anylonger or excel/sov your way out of that anylonger really, either. If you want to fly a crusier or a Sci, you are a support profession for escorts, nothing more, nothing less. And being a "healer" in an MMO is totaly different gameplay and is an acquired taiste. You don't kill anything, you don't get the glory, you get to watch others. There is a reason why "medics/healers" were/are few and far between in SWG, WoW, TOR, everything. Not everyone wants to play a support profession. In fact, most do not. That is not good for the new player who gets into a Q with a crusier/sci, and I would imagine there are more of these guys than fly escorts in PVE. How many of you cringe when you PUG even PVE/STF/Fleets and find your crusier heavy? And I already know there is no use griping in team chat, your team is just DPS gimped in a game that even PVE content relys heavily on DPS. I freely admit I do as well.
The retrain token being totaly monitized is yet another LARGE factor in PVP gameplay. So you tell that new guy his build is not optimized and then he has to go give Cryptic 5 bucks to get it straighted out. This leads to NOT min/maxing. The cost becomes the overwhelming factor and the choice becomes pay or just leave it like it is and do PVE. How many times have even the best PVPers put off that min/max retrain, where you only want to shift a couple of points due to nothing more than the cost? I've got that situation right now and I'm not going to waist what tokens I have left just to shift a couple of points. So, no PVP for me until I actualy do what I'm thinking about and can test it.
Then there's the NERFs. Constant tweaking of builds/weapons. Buff this to later come back and NERF the living junk right out of it. Solution? Head for the C-Store yet again to come up with that retrain token, more P2W ships, and consoles. Never ending battle for "truth, justice, and the Cryptic development way", I guess.
Community can kill PVP, I've seen it myself. The "IPWNDJOOOO LEET1110001111" TRIBBLE will certainly do that. But, to be honest I just haven't seen that much of this in STO. We seem to have a bit better type of gamer here than WoW, thank God. So while pre-mades may play a part, it's just a small part that a community fix will go totaly unnoticed until and IF Cryptic gets off their problems and I really doubt that happening anylonger. P2W sells and NERFs head people for the store.
/agree with the OP, but premades are only a small part of the problem here as to what the community can do to help out PVP in general. Back in SWG the "premade/HAX" factor got so large the last 2 years, the only time I PVPed was putting my jedi in the group that got ROFLstomped and was complaining in general chat. But, my jedi was min/maxed to almost (key word there is almost) able to tank a full team of 8, while still able to throw decent DPS as well.
The large problem is P2W. Those with the money win. P2W consoles, weapons, (largest factor-) ships along with all the nerfs to tanking skills and the base weapons (beams). I believe I even stated this would happen when all the escort pilots were calling for large NERFS to crusiers/abilities/healing and I'm not all that overjoyed that what I thought would happen, did. New players, that have watched the show, see Kirk/Picard/Janeway et al fly their big ships, using BEAMS, and beams have been NERFed into obilivian in this game. Theu were always the bottom of the ladder but they were viable with the right builds, before, Now? Forget about the beams and go DHCs. So that really means, when you get right down to the crux of the matter, throw away that crusier/Sci and go get that escort. DPS is now king, it trumps healing, it trumps harrasment, it trumps everything. There is no "glass cannon" of STO and I really see no downside to flying an escort that runs the exact same resists as a fully decked excel does.
Ghost's Crusier thread is a great resource but it starts with the cold, hard, fact of today's STO. Crusiers are support. You can't even min/max your way out of that anylonger or excel/sov your way out of that anylonger rally, either. If you want to fly a crusier or a Sci, you are a support profession for escorts, nothing more, nothing less. And being a "healer" in an MMO is totaly different gameplay and is an acquired taiste. You don't kill anything, you don't get the glory, you get to watch others. There is a reason why "medics/healers" were/are few and far between in SWG, WoW, TOR, everything. Not everyone wants to play a support profession. In fact, most do not. That is not good for the new player who gets into a Q with a crusier/sci, and I would imagine there are more of these guys than fly escorts in PVE. How many of you cringe when you PUG even PVE/STF/Fleet and find your crusier heavy? And i already know there is no use griping in team chat, your team is just DPS gimped in a game that even PVE content relys heavily on DSP. I know and freely admit I do as well.
The retrain token being totaly monitized is yet another LARGE factor in PVP gameplay. So you tell that new guy his build is not optimized and then he has to go give Cryptic 5 bucks to get it straighted out. This leads to NOT min/maxing. The cost becomes the overwhelming factor and the choice becomes pay or just leave it like it is and do PVE. How many times have even the best PVPers put off that min/max retrain, where you only want to shift a couple of points due to nothing more than the cost? I've got that sistuation right now and I'm not going to waist what tokens I have left just to shift a couple of points. So, no PVP for me until I actualy do what I'm thinking about and can test it.
Then there's the NERFs. Constant tweaking of builds/weapons. Buff this to later come back and NERF the living junk right out of it. Solution? Head for the C-Store yet again to come up with that retrain token, more P2W ships, and consoles. Never ending battle for "truth, justice, and the Cryptic development way", I guess.
Community can kill PVP, I've seen it myself. The "IPWNDJOOOO LEET1110001111" TRIBBLE will certainly do that. But, to be honest I just haven't seen that much of this in STO. We seem to have a bit better type of gamer here than WoW, thank God. So while pre-mades may play a part, it's just a small part that a community fix will go totaly unnoticed until and IF Cryptic gests off their problems and I really doubt that happening anylonger. P2W sells and NERFs head people for the store.
I definitely agree with the overall theme of you post, but have to say this:
Nerf to taking abilities? really? lol
Since the addition of DOFFs and the Buff to RSP, tanking in this game has become so OP it's ridiculous. I sat in Ker'rat the other night, cloaked, and watched an escort pilot tank 4 or 5 other ships while still managing to pick them off 1 by 1. It was hilariously disheartening.
Also, to address P2W. There are some universal consoles that can be annoying, but that's the limit really, annoying. They become an issue when they are stacked and chained by coordinated players. Those players are trading skill for easy I-Win buttons and are flabbergasted when they run up against skilled players who still take them down with just standard BOFF/Captain abilities. P2W is not skill, it's a crutch and those that use it will almost always fail when you force them to use real skill to beat you.
You can still build a hell of a tacxcelsior actually. Mind you it the galor and dkora are pretty much the only fed cruisers you'll see me advocating for Damage dealing.
Otherwise, you're actually better off with CC. As far as not dealing damage goes, you should watch my healer demo on youtube
Honestly as a Premade player I can safely tell you DPS has never been king in STO. Before F2p it was all Sci Power and heals from the cruiser. Infact taking one tac scort on the field was gimping yourself completely. It still isn't now. Healing if anything is stronger now than it was before thanks to the Maint and Dev Lab scientists, now instead of an 12k heal every 30 in addition to say an ASIF2 or 3 adding another 6 to 10k every 15. You now have a 12k hull heal every Fifteen seconds in the case of ET3. ASIF3 can heal for 10k on it's own so now you have 2 super heals every 15.
Also if anything it also got another stealth buff thanks to the change in EPTA and Extend Shields graphics. It's much harder to see when the Healer is Cranking heals now thanks to those two incredibly stupid changes. Which means there is alot more room in creating errors, on the tac and sci captains parts when picking targets to neutralize.
To say nothing of the boost Sci Team got at the start of f2p with the new skill tree. Now ST3 is almost a full shield heal in it's own right, and ST2 is like a 2/3s of that. That can also be fired off every 15. There's no doff in the game that boosts DPS like the doffs have boosted heal capability.
Then there are the Hazard System doffs which boost your hull damage resistance (lol), the Shield distribution officer which basically gives you Free RSP, at times when you probably should be using BFI anyway. Then there's the god forsaken Warp Core engineer, which spikes your power levels so much that EPS power transfer almost becomes just a bonus in the bag for eng captains. Seriously with that doff on, I just start handing EPS out to other ships nearby me. Because I'm going to be pegging everything even my /25 sliders anyway without it.
There is also the Damage Control Engineer. which when stacked up by 3, basically gives you your Best EPTS up 100 percent of the time if you put your other EPTX skill to say, EPTA, EPTW or EPTE1.
All DPS has gotten was one bonus console on some escorts, sci ships, cruisers, and mk 12 purple weapons (there were already Blues on the field anyway)
Now sci has been hampered quite abit (but still quite vital). Now it's all on Cruisers. Usually 4 of them on the most boring of the standard premade loadouts.
Anyway here's the healer demo. You'll notice the ship ain't exactly a slouch in damage. That kind of score is typical for me in Arena play against Skilled players as well. (though honestly my healing #s could have been -much- higher had I actually tried that match) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmaxb3dQq2A
Comments
Except for 1 problem. This is a team oriented game. It was designed to be played by teams of 5. If you don't want to find a group to fight with then you are taking your chances with PUGs. That is just the way it is. You will never get rid of "premades*", and you will never get a separate "premade" queue from Cryptic, never.
When I got tired of being ROFLstomped by better teams, I found some friends and we did something about it, when that group broke up I accepted Biebs' invite to Pandas. That's the proper way to handle the situation. Teamplay is the nature of the game, it is how it was envisioned and how it was made. Anyone who fails to, or refuses to, accept that is doing it wrong. Honestly, would you queue up for Elite STF's without finding people who knew what they were doing first? No? Then why would you PUG your way through something that is orders of magnitude more complex and difficult?
Use OPVP, find a team, kick some butt. I've been doing this a lot lately, and it works.
Yes, there are some premades out there that put it on full strength when fighting pugs with the intent of ROFLstomping them, but usually, a team of 5 from the same fleet did little more than make sure they had an escort and a subnuke. Everything else is gravy.
*I also disagree with your definition of "Premade". A premade is a group of 5 players with ships and skills designed specifically to compliment each other. It is not 3-5 random fleetmates or friends who team up because they are the only ones online.
I agree with your statement regarding STFs and that PvP is much more complex and difficult. I remember the way the original STF mission accepting windows stating "this is a 5 man special task force mission" I don't remember such a warning when being told to check out PvP queues.
plus newer players are going to learn about playing the game in their own way, no player really experiences the game the same way. after all this thread is more so about the new players first experiences with PvP and how we could gain more PvP interest in this community rather than using the queues to plow our way to dilithium heaven...
not every player will find a team before queueing and not every player wants to be roflsqueeshed in 5 mins.
me? I don't mind getting roflsqueeshed aslong as I have fun... but there is only so much "fun" in getting roflsqueeshed.
RachelJ88
New players shouldn't be under any misconceptions about the harsh realities of PvP. Taking it easy on them serves no purposes but to set them up for failure later. You have to be able to see how far you must travel to plan the journey, don't you think? Taking it easy, or limiting exposure to more advanced/skilled players or teams is a self-defeating policy.
This is also why I say ego plays a part. If you can't accept that you have room to improve, then you won't. PvE in this game makes you think that you are awesome, the next best thing to Kirk. Allowing that mentality to continue in PvP accomplishes nothing but setting up a mostly underskilled player base. That makes no sense at all.
Being stomped by pre-teamed players, over and over, isn't fun. That is why I suggest doing something about it instead of allowing it to continue until you quit playing altogether.
First, thank you for this. Before I addressed the OP and the carebear squad in here, I wanted to get that out of the way.
Now, to the Carebears and their sympathizers.
Premades aren't killing pvp. Bad/Terribad Failboat captain pugs are. Seriously, a large portion of the Pug Heroes have been playing for two years and change now and Still don't do things as basic as Balancing their own shields. Let alone taking correct builds. Some of these pug stars have been known to still come to this forum and whine about how broken the game is. Because they refuse to even handle the basics on their ships properly.
You can't help them, because they are too stupid to improve. Believe me I've tried. I was nice and everything. You can't have healthy pvp as long as the pve is so mind numbingly TRIBBLE, that you can literally win just by setting weapon power on max, and smashing the space bar. Because the 99 percent of the other gameplay in this game doesn't encourage Thinking, Strategy, or Solid Builds. So these wanna be pvpers would rather blame the game, and their opponents because clearly they are doing things right cause it works everywhere else!
Then you have Dilithium Tourists, who only que for the rewards that are stupidly equal to that of the winning team. So there is no incentive to Try what so ever vs just rolling the face 'round the keyboard and win or lose taking your rewards.
Then you have the AFKers that don't even leave the spawn when they get in. Because hey it's free dilith, and EC! You don't have to try to do anything to get rewarded after all.
Those three groups of players right there are damning enough as it is.
Then you have a fourth group, the disenfranchised pvper. The guys that left the game, because pvp has been urinated on, tea bagged, and dirty sanchezed by Cryptic, at every single opportunity cryptic has had. These guys were phenomenal pvpers, some of them were even better as teachers. They also made up the lion share of the Skilled population. So any chance at fighting Decent Premades in a pug, are by and large (outside of a specific opvp pug team) are pretty much shot down and dead. So the ones that remain, have banded together in about 4 major fleets from what I see when I look at the community. Because that's all that's really left of the Skilled population. 4 to 5 fleets worth of Skilled players. It's overly concentrated, because the Skilled players all know each other, know each others reputations.
These have all been problems, either since launch or since f2p started. And now you have a new, even more detrimental force to be reckoned with. The Star Base. No seriously, who ever was the clown that decided that star base and pvp shouldn't mix, even on a quest reward level, needs to be fired. Period. Now droves of players, who were formerly massive pvpers (even if they weren't High End Skilled) have been effectively removed from the field to go grind this abomination to good game design. There is literally no ability what so ever to improve your starbase through pvp. The best (or rather second best) ships in the game, all come from having Military upgraded Starbases. This requires, doffs, energy credits, dilithium (and pvp is far from the most efficient way to get dilith), skill points, (not an issue) and Fleet Marks. Everyone wants the Better Version of their existing ships. So they have to grind this Dumb TRIBBLE Starbase. The system is set up, so that at minimum people are just now getting their T3 Military upgrades.
These starbases also discourage team play, in that regard because it's a Pve Experience, and pve in this game means just roll the face 'round the board and watch things go boom boom. So the only people left quing are the utter diehards for pvp. The 4 to 5 group (which usually isn't even from the same fleet), and then what ever 4 to 5 combination of Tourists, and Terribad Captains are lurking about and maybe 1 to 2 Skilled players that are pugging it. They also strongly discourage people from making New Fleets because of the nigh impossible to grind and pvp nature of the dumb TRIBBLE starbase.
A Premade Que, will not address any of this. Because frankly anyone stuck with a Tourist, and Terribad captain are probably going to lose badly enough as it is, let alone when you throw mr AFKer into the mix.
What becomes the excuse when you get rolled by a Pug, consisting of say, Bieber, Aquitaine985 (Regulus), Mavairo, CaptainHorizon and some Tourist? I can tell you, you're probably going to get stomped 15 and 0 to that if you're in a typical sto pug. Easy. So what is the excuse then? None of said people had to que up together prior to that match, could just be a random team right there. They certainly aren't a true premade even if they stayed teamed all night after that match.
That's not a team you describe, but a force of nature
I can agree with your message but as a PuGer I do not fear the premades when I meet them and see them as a challenge with a chance to test me abilities. Possibly even learn a thing or two that will make me a better player.
Unfortunately until they find a good way to seperate the Premades from the PuGs in the ques, getting roflstomped as a PuG team will just be a fact that the individual player learns to live with without ego, becuase the honest truth is that hurt egoes is at the heart of why many cry foul of the Premades.
R.I.P
No. Premades aren't "killing pvp", they're just stifling its growth. One of the key demographics for a F2P MMO is the constant influx of new players.
A new player following their mission chains is told to go do Ker'rat at level 6, where they get stomped. It's like negative advertising - and for most people, it'll keep them away for a long, long time.
I didn't do badly, even though it was painfully obvious 2 minutes in that the other side was organized. They moved as a group, while my team split into 3 different directions. I actually managed to destroy 2 or 3 of them, and even survive tanking 3-4 at a time. We still lost horribly though (15 to 0 sounds accurate). I've been VA for a while now, and still feel zero drive to try PvP again.
Certainly, there are those who want to rise to the challenge, or want revenge. That amount will not be a major portion of the incoming F2P players, who will move on to another game if they're not having fun.
Actually, it's more that horrible intro into PvP that will drive new players away. Seriously, PvP at level 6? That's just stupid. Don't tell us "Oh, they don't have to do it yet", because we still see questions about people trying to complete "Aid the Planet" missions - which are given 1 level before they can actually do them.
3rd time try TRIBBLE and splode, don't log out. Not that its much better but usually there are no premades in there and if there are, they need to break the team. Plus you may end up on tv lol (thissler's movies). Lately I seldom do arenas due to this pug stomp sickness.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
If you not noticed, people never/rarely complain about getting roflstomped by mix of players coming from known PvP fleets. They (and me too) usually complain about being roflstomped by team with 3 Pandas or 4 Critz or whoever else in them. Those 3 or 4 may get into game because of sher luck (unluck) but still are seen as premade.
Doing what? PvE even on elite is stupidly easy, PvP is either just as easy or stupidly hard. Middle ground is almost non-existing. There is no low level PvP to learn in small steps and no way to learn in any other way then to find a group of players to form a team or join a PvP oriented fleet. Not everyone wants this.
So what way a new player has to learn PvP? And what to learn he has in roflstomp? That he is a newb, a one from herd of sheeps that has to stay and be cut by few butchers?
I remember my own experience with PvP. After doing PvE content for the first time - year or so ago, several months before F2P) I tried PvP because there was nothing else to do. Of course I moved against Klingons, no fun in fighting another Fed. Got roflstomped once. Then again, again and I left the game for few months. No fun in being stomped into the ground.
I love Star Trek so I returned and after I realized that season 4 brought nothing new in PvE I turned to PvP. And I had enough luck to get into the game when low level PvP queues were still active and could level my toon through PvP only. Learned a lot before I got to the VA level and I was relatively good player - enough to have fun even if I met "premade" (not enough to win in most cases). If I had returned today I would have no such luxury, no way to learn in small steps - I would need to level via PvE and then jump into PvP to be stomped again as in the first try. And most probably I would have left and never returned to STO.
Ok, it's not fault of premades. It's Cryptic fault for making PvP into what it is now. But, frankly premades only make it worse for new players that start trying PvP and have the bad luck of meeting some premade before they learn enough to be competitive or at least hold the ground for some time.
I suspect you may be mistaking a cause for an effect here - certainly, AFKers, 'failboat' captains, etc are all annoying, and contribute little to nothing of value to the PvP community, but I think it makes more sense to look at those people as the effect of the problem, not its cause.
In other words, it's worth examining for a second WHY someone might play in those ways. Generally, my assumption is that players of all types (newbs, noobs, elite pvpers, rpers, failboaters, kirk-wannabes, casuals, f2pers, p2wers, etc) share a common goal - to have fun. Certainly sitting at the spawn for 15 minutes can't be a 'fun' experience, so why on earth would someone CHOOSE that over participation? The obvious answer is that PvP is not engaging or fun enough for those people to want to put in the effort it takes to get good at it.
Even that is pretty simplistic, however, because it begs the question of why people feel that PvP isn't fun, which is what I think the OP is speaking to. Far from being a 'carebear', I think the OP is saying (correctly) that Premades (or even just 'quasi-premades') stomping on PuGs is one factor that leads to people concluding that PvP isn't worth the effort.
Is it the primary factor? I don't know. Would there still be useless afkers even in a world where PvP was totally awesome? Of course. The point, I think, is to recognize that a 15-0 match where you have people going AFK, warping out, removing shields, etc is no fun for EVERYONE, and recognize that BOTH teams have some responsibility for making it better. If you are rolling the other team 7 or 8 to 0, maybe it's time to pull back from their spawn for a minute, and suggest that they get organized and use some focus fire, or maybe split your own team up into smaller groups so that you aren't just 5v1 against people as they respawn, or whatever.
Similarly, if you are in a match and your team sucks, try to get them organized, try to get them playing, and don't quit in a huff if your team gets outplayed. It happens - try to learn from it. If you are really on a hapless team, try asking the opposition to back off and let your players regroup - let them know you are TRYING to improve, and maybe they will be willing to tone it back a bit to help teach other players, etc.
Most importantly, however, both sides need to stop trying to 'punish' the other team for 'ruining' their fun. Don't just stomp a team out of spite because they 'aren't good enough' or 'aren't willing to learn', take some responsibility for your own fun, and see what you can do to make the match better. On the losing side, same thing - if you are not having fun, or thinking about warping out, think about what YOU can do to make the match better, don't just give up.
I've watched PvP die. Do you know how it died? Better games kept coming out. Dedicated Pvpers left. Premades are actually a rare thing in the ques. Most nights I que up there's no premades. It's pugs. 90 percent of the time.
It also died because frankly despite the devs lies, the population for this game did not Rise what so ever when f2p launched. Because STO is still Failsauce to the larger gaming community. That thing cryptic was like "we don't need really!"
The other group could just be better players. Moving together and cross healing does not = automatic premade.
You clearly don't get the hate tells that I do if you think people don't complain about that.
The real solution is actually rather simple and easy to understand. Fix PvE. I should not be able to take a Delta Flyer, into ANY pve at Cap, and not only succeed but NEVER die. Seriously, a Shuttle. It has exactly 2 weapons, and 2 boff slots. Both of which are Ensigns. It's not a matter of me being total hax, it's because the pve is SO BAD it doesn't encourage any defensive strategy, nor offensive one for that matter to succeed.
And THAT is the problem.
Pve should push players as they level, so they can improve their builds as they go, particularly in a game where the devs urinate on pvp.
The thing is, when I roll in a premade in the ques and we back away from the puggees and let them regroup more often than not, they don't. When I pug and start chatting to people and showing them what to do or look out for, they don't care. Because they can't just Jim Kirk Target Dummy the issue. Pugs don't follow target keybinds, heal binds. It's Stupid. Because STO attracted the wrong kind of player by and large.
Let me give you people some hard real life advice. " We the consumer have lost this war not battle, war ". PWE and Cryptic is just making money from you guys and PVE and that is their main focus now because the game is doing badly in order to pay for a dead horse.
I have accepted it along time ago. PvP is this game will always be dead. The only way it will be changed is when someone else buys the STO game from a different company and most importantly a GOOD company which is pretty hard to find now-a-days.
If you want to PvP in a game, try another game. If you guys still want to cling to your false hopes then your a fool.
Or does it? $5.00 USD for a retrait token is a good deal... wait, why do I need to even buy that token... oh to change my build to be better... why do I need to do that again? PVE is no challenge at all save for NWS; even then, all that is is cheating AI and a great many of them. :rolleyes:
I think we are the wrong players for the game because it is very clear that they do not want us. I find it nearly incrediable that any of the developers talk to us or try and fix anything PVP related whatsoever.
Maybe they see a target market in the PVP community that is not being explored fully. IDK. But, we are not as easy to please as the Jim Kirk players because we demand quality control.
This is what I mean by that earlier statement. Cryptic went for the Basement Level Intelligence of player by and large. To keep those sub normal people playing, they alienated a much larger potential audience. So instead of say having a million or maybe 2 million gamers playing, they wound up with 100k or so morons that barely installed the game by themselves, and -maybe- 50k people of average or above average intelligence.
Proof of this of course is with the D'Derix defender. It was an NPC that could actually -heal- itself and tanked almost in a player esque fashion. The Sub Normals that play this game cried out that it was too hard, and nigh invincible (I killed one in a Shuttle mind you too. I actually had to get a Tric out with my DBB instead of just the DBB and single array that a normal npc requires).
Another shining example was the early revision of stop the signal. People whined that it was impossible to beat because the frigates kept spawning and killing npcs. I not only beat that mission in a Shuttle, at both the earliest level needed, but again at Cap. I even wrote a guide to help people through it, but the Whining and QQ continued. Infact when I posted the guide, and screen shots proving I even did it in a shuttle rather than these morons reexamining their ability at this game they claimed "great so only elite players can beat it!" I was in a God Damn Shuttle. A Shuttle. I even did it an extra hard way by toying with enemy frigates and turned their infinite spawning TRIBBLE against the dreadnought. I used their sorry TRIBBLE as Warp Core Torpedoes and killed them right ontop of that dreadnought.
The result? The Defender was removed from the game again, and the Stop The signal mission got nerfed so hard that you can literally just fly in and press Space Bar and win, rather than need any form of strategy to overcome the challenge.
We come to now/the present..As im not in a large fleet (only 2 active) on fed side i still have to PUG que but when i come across a premade i will FIGHT on. I hate losing 0-15 like any other person but i hav a goal. Too try and be the most irrataing thorn in that premade teams side. Hopefully get a few kills (hopefully), but 1) to better myself and 2) to make friends and try to keep PVP alive. There is a 3rd but thats mainly me hoping to beat the person who helped and guided me in PVP......I.E the pupil beating his master lol.
But this game does need new content for PVP...Heck why not just make a map like kerrat with no Borg and no timer reset for people to come and go as they please and just have 1 huge Firefight...Be a place to meet ppl for for future PVP events..
But alas its friday and my PVP night and i do hate spending half of it waiting in a que, the other 40% being owned because of AFK's, not balanced sides, coming up against premades etc etc and the last 10% actually having a cracking game where a team wins by only 1 or 2 kills.
See u on the Battlefield
I miss that D'Derix Defender! I wish they could replace AI by difficulty setting whereas players that want to fight things like the D'Derix Defender AI could by changing the difficulty setting. Instead, all changing the setting does is give the AI more HP and a damage buff. LAME!!!!
EDIT: I'm going to post something about that in the Feedback Section after I eat lunch! That isn't a bad idea imo.
But of course i do not run into premades all the time. And just to say they should not que because pugs have no chance to fight them would kill PvP even more as they would be forced to fight themselves or just to stay on PvE. Its not as there are hundreds of players waiting for PvP in this game. So the Problem are not the premades, its the lack of PvPers...
Well, part of me wonders if you're just trolling, but if you're being serious than I feel sad for you. Means you've given up on the game basically, and that's a very sad thing. I still think STO can get back to the glory days, but it's gonna take effort.
Look, the one thing I hope we can all agree on is that PvP is not gonna revive itself. If we just bury our heads in the sand and pretend nothing's wrong, just keep queuing up and hoping for the best, PvP is just gonna continue down its downward spiral until it dies for real.
So what's the answer? I can't say for sure, but I've seen some pretty good suggestions so far. Something as simple as holding back when you're winning 8-0, and asking your opponents to regroup. Or offer to break up the group so that it's not 5-1, but 3v3 and 2v2, or something to that effect.
Look, I'm gonna put my money where my mouth is. My handle in-game is Hunter@ProjectOctober. I'm a member of TRIBBLE. fleet, and I'm more than happy to implement any of the "solutions" we come up with. At the risk of sounding like a carebear, I really do think if we work together we can revive PvP.
So here's a shout out to anyone reading: if you're a newb, noob, failboat, I don't care. Send me a tell, I'll PuG with you and offer any advice I have. And if you're already an experienced PvPer? Let's team up! Because while getting curbstomped 15-0 against a fleet premade is one thing, but you can learn a lot if you are on the same team as a few good PvPers, as long as you're willing to watch and learn.
One thing's for sure. It's one thing to ***** and moan on a forum about this. It's another to actually do something about it. I intend to start. Who's with me?
I still disagree that the problem is "pre-mades". As other people have said, you see good players that get dropped into the queues solo and they still roflstomp the other side, even if the other side is a true premade (5 guys same fleet, assumed voice). I'll fly with a partner, stomp the other side and still get called a hacking premade
The problem is good builds. People with good complementary builds and pvp knowledge will decimate pugs. Every time. I don't need someone to call targets, I just use the tacscorts target. I know when to snb and keep track of the buffs on targets and the cool down on their RSPs. The only time I need voice or a target macro is if I run into a good team that requires fast switching. The only time good builds won't beat a pve built pug group is if it's 5 scorts or 5 cruisers and no spike. And "singles only" queue doesn't teach the most overpowered part of pvp. Complementary builds provide a gestalt level boost along the pvp powercurve. That scort can do MUCH more damage if he doesn't have to worry about healing as much or running away. I can do much more healing and damage if I don't have to worry about getting tac teams. The more complementary builds in a group the exponentially better that group will do. It's the single most important thing to learn how to do in pvp and singles queues don't encourage it.
This is true of Critz as well. We advertise every day for premades. Some days we get them, some days we don't. In the evening we often have between 6 and 14 active pvpers online and pewpewing. What may not be apparent is that while we normally have 5 in a group, we are very very often running a second or third group with 2 or 3 people in the queues. A lot of nights we do internal premades of 5v5. Last night we were doing internal 6 v 6 premades.
A lot of fleets also don't realize we just want to pew, period. Sure everyone wants to win, but we gladly give out players to help other fleets get to 5 so we can play. EMS does this a lot with us, they have 3 or 4 so one or two guys goes over to their TS so we can have a 5v5 good fight. Just ask in OPVP. We are happy to do this just so we can have someone decent to shoot at. No one wants to shoot bad pugs. It's as bad as pve. But not even voice and coordination can help terribad failcruiser/failscort kirk builds.
Completely disagree, although I'm sure it can seem that way. Critz has only added like 4 or 5 people in the last 5 months, and 4 of them were Coup de Grace whose fleet self destructed. Almost all the folks in Critz have been in since it's founding, and the vast majority came from Pandas. We are just very visible because we are extremely active and have a lot of different characters. Some folks have characters that swap in and out of the Critz fleet to others since we aren't uptight about starbase TRIBBLE
Then maybe it's time that people in OPVP advertise the existance of the channel at the end of each match. New players going into PVP have no idea what to expect. Unless they're MMO-minded and have done PVP in other forms in the past then they'll have a massively rude awakening when PVPers fly into them. If they call hax and leave then **** them. But we have to at least give people the option of finding OPVP and asking for help in some way.
And when I say "help" I mean actual help. Not "LOL if you don't have Drivercoil then you suck!" I mean something useful.
Win-Win really, you get more people into OPVP and once there they learn how to play - More actual PVPers exist, more join fleets, more premades.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
That's why my Cruiser thread is bound to a hotkey. At the end or start of a match, I press C and my cruiser thread gets linked in zone chat. I'm going to do the same with my science thread.
The Sad Pandas offer help and assistance via our in-game chat channel, "Sad Panda Cubs". If you need or would like help, feel free to join that channel and ask for it. You'll get it. We also sponsor a fleet by the same name that you can join to have other players available for teaming while you learn the mechanics and strategies used in STO PvP. This is not a Panda recruiting method. Our goal is to improve the abilities of new PvPers to make them competetive on the battlefield, and to make them attractive to other PvP fleets.
We are always willing to help, but willingness to be helped is also required.
but in C&H, it feels like I'M the premade... even if I'm soloing... the skill of most C&H players is almost at NPC level... In fact, I'm already ON TV! http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UULmXfQThrnc1HNI1hjPsNVg&v=t8ueZijypJ4&feature=player_detailpage
And now you know how I feel the majority of the times I que up for pvp.
And now you also know why I'm against this idea. Because it's far too easy to roll up tough on pugs.
The large problem is P2W. Those with the money win. P2W consoles, weapons, (largest factor-) ships along with all the nerfs to tanking skills and the base weapons (beams). I believe I even stated this would happen when all the escort pilots were calling for large NERFS (in this forum) to crusiers/abilities/healing and I'm not all that overjoyed that what I thought would happen, did. New players, that have watched the show, see Kirk/Picard/Janeway et al fly their big ships, using BEAMS, and beams have been NERFed into obilivian in this game. They were always the bottom of the ladder but they were viable with the right builds, before, Now? Forget about the beams and go DHCs. So that really means, when you get right down to the crux of the matter, throw away that crusier/Sci and go get that escort. DPS is now king, it trumps healing, it trumps harrasment, it trumps everything. There is no "glass cannon" of STO and I really see no downside to flying an escort that runs the exact same resists as a fully decked excel does.
Ghost's Crusier thread is a great resource but it starts out with the cold, hard, fact of today's STO. Crusiers are support. You can't even min/max your way out of that anylonger or excel/sov your way out of that anylonger really, either. If you want to fly a crusier or a Sci, you are a support profession for escorts, nothing more, nothing less. And being a "healer" in an MMO is totaly different gameplay and is an acquired taiste. You don't kill anything, you don't get the glory, you get to watch others. There is a reason why "medics/healers" were/are few and far between in SWG, WoW, TOR, everything. Not everyone wants to play a support profession. In fact, most do not. That is not good for the new player who gets into a Q with a crusier/sci, and I would imagine there are more of these guys than fly escorts in PVE. How many of you cringe when you PUG even PVE/STF/Fleets and find your crusier heavy? And I already know there is no use griping in team chat, your team is just DPS gimped in a game that even PVE content relys heavily on DPS. I freely admit I do as well.
The retrain token being totaly monitized is yet another LARGE factor in PVP gameplay. So you tell that new guy his build is not optimized and then he has to go give Cryptic 5 bucks to get it straighted out. This leads to NOT min/maxing. The cost becomes the overwhelming factor and the choice becomes pay or just leave it like it is and do PVE. How many times have even the best PVPers put off that min/max retrain, where you only want to shift a couple of points due to nothing more than the cost? I've got that situation right now and I'm not going to waist what tokens I have left just to shift a couple of points. So, no PVP for me until I actualy do what I'm thinking about and can test it.
Then there's the NERFs. Constant tweaking of builds/weapons. Buff this to later come back and NERF the living junk right out of it. Solution? Head for the C-Store yet again to come up with that retrain token, more P2W ships, and consoles. Never ending battle for "truth, justice, and the Cryptic development way", I guess.
Community can kill PVP, I've seen it myself. The "IPWNDJOOOO LEET1110001111" TRIBBLE will certainly do that. But, to be honest I just haven't seen that much of this in STO. We seem to have a bit better type of gamer here than WoW, thank God. So while pre-mades may play a part, it's just a small part that a community fix will go totaly unnoticed until and IF Cryptic gets off their problems and I really doubt that happening anylonger. P2W sells and NERFs head people for the store.
I definitely agree with the overall theme of you post, but have to say this:
Nerf to taking abilities? really? lol
Since the addition of DOFFs and the Buff to RSP, tanking in this game has become so OP it's ridiculous. I sat in Ker'rat the other night, cloaked, and watched an escort pilot tank 4 or 5 other ships while still managing to pick them off 1 by 1. It was hilariously disheartening.
Also, to address P2W. There are some universal consoles that can be annoying, but that's the limit really, annoying. They become an issue when they are stacked and chained by coordinated players. Those players are trading skill for easy I-Win buttons and are flabbergasted when they run up against skilled players who still take them down with just standard BOFF/Captain abilities. P2W is not skill, it's a crutch and those that use it will almost always fail when you force them to use real skill to beat you.
Otherwise, you're actually better off with CC. As far as not dealing damage goes, you should watch my healer demo on youtube
Honestly as a Premade player I can safely tell you DPS has never been king in STO. Before F2p it was all Sci Power and heals from the cruiser. Infact taking one tac scort on the field was gimping yourself completely. It still isn't now. Healing if anything is stronger now than it was before thanks to the Maint and Dev Lab scientists, now instead of an 12k heal every 30 in addition to say an ASIF2 or 3 adding another 6 to 10k every 15. You now have a 12k hull heal every Fifteen seconds in the case of ET3. ASIF3 can heal for 10k on it's own so now you have 2 super heals every 15.
Also if anything it also got another stealth buff thanks to the change in EPTA and Extend Shields graphics. It's much harder to see when the Healer is Cranking heals now thanks to those two incredibly stupid changes. Which means there is alot more room in creating errors, on the tac and sci captains parts when picking targets to neutralize.
To say nothing of the boost Sci Team got at the start of f2p with the new skill tree. Now ST3 is almost a full shield heal in it's own right, and ST2 is like a 2/3s of that. That can also be fired off every 15. There's no doff in the game that boosts DPS like the doffs have boosted heal capability.
Then there are the Hazard System doffs which boost your hull damage resistance (lol), the Shield distribution officer which basically gives you Free RSP, at times when you probably should be using BFI anyway. Then there's the god forsaken Warp Core engineer, which spikes your power levels so much that EPS power transfer almost becomes just a bonus in the bag for eng captains. Seriously with that doff on, I just start handing EPS out to other ships nearby me. Because I'm going to be pegging everything even my /25 sliders anyway without it.
There is also the Damage Control Engineer. which when stacked up by 3, basically gives you your Best EPTS up 100 percent of the time if you put your other EPTX skill to say, EPTA, EPTW or EPTE1.
All DPS has gotten was one bonus console on some escorts, sci ships, cruisers, and mk 12 purple weapons (there were already Blues on the field anyway)
Now sci has been hampered quite abit (but still quite vital). Now it's all on Cruisers. Usually 4 of them on the most boring of the standard premade loadouts.
Anyway here's the healer demo. You'll notice the ship ain't exactly a slouch in damage. That kind of score is typical for me in Arena play against Skilled players as well. (though honestly my healing #s could have been -much- higher had I actually tried that match)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmaxb3dQq2A
Delta - Recluse
Omega - Scimitar
Alpha - MVAM
Beta - Wells