test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
All us premade people...
ertihan
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Guys, guys, we really need to avoid PuGstomping. Look, I know it's fun and all, and really it is. I mean, getting on TS, forming up a full 5-man pre-made group and just utterly annihilating noobs can all be good fun, but remember that every time you're doing this, you're killing PvP!
Look, here's the thing right, we all whine and moan on this forum about how PvP seems to be dying and how Cryptic doesn't seem to care, but we don't stop to think how we're contributing to it. The only way PvP is gonna survive is if those random PuGs we like to rag on so much are willing to take a chance on a PvP queue.
Here's the problem though, let's say you're a newb. Note I said newb, NOT a noob. So you came in through free-to-play, and you've joined a friendly (but not PvP-oriented) fleet. Got yourself to VA and thought you'd give PvP a try.
You enter the queue, and you try your best. You're new to this game, so you don't know certain things. You don't know how important Tactical Team is. You don't realize Aceton Beam is a horrible skill. And you definitely don't know such advanced skills as keybinds to trigger multiple skills at once, or even just re-balancing your shields as you fire.
But you do know enough to shoot at your enemies and you hope to learn more and have fun doing it. Instead, you're up against a full fleet team of Sad Pandas, or Angry Clowns, or Show Me Your Critz, or TRIBBLE., or Nova Core, or whatever. So you get your TRIBBLE stomped. Hard.
You die horribly, again and again. And not only that, you see your teammates warp off, or take off their shields and stop trying. Let me ask you guys in those fleets I mentioned, is it any challenge, or even any fun, to fight that? On top of it all, you still try your best, but nobody on either side is giving you any pointers. Or any help at all.
So the match ends. It's 15-0, NOT in your favor, and I don't think I'm gonna have to tell you what this newb is thinking about PvP right now. Who knows? With the right training, and the right help, he might be a monster in PvP someday. But it's not gonna happen, because he's NEVER gonna queue again.
Look, all I'm saying is that maybe we should look into something a bit different. How about, 4-man or even 3-man pre-mades? That way, at least the newb can end up on the OWNING side for once, and at the end if it maybe that fleet can give him some pointers on what he might have done wrong.
I'm just saying that it's up to us, the guys who've been PvPing a while and are in good PvP fleets, to try and promote our own format. Because if we keep doing what we're doing, we're gonna end up killing PvP for sure.
Look, here's the thing right, we all whine and moan on this forum about how PvP seems to be dying and how Cryptic doesn't seem to care, but we don't stop to think how we're contributing to it. The only way PvP is gonna survive is if those random PuGs we like to rag on so much are willing to take a chance on a PvP queue.
Here's the problem though, let's say you're a newb. Note I said newb, NOT a noob. So you came in through free-to-play, and you've joined a friendly (but not PvP-oriented) fleet. Got yourself to VA and thought you'd give PvP a try.
You enter the queue, and you try your best. You're new to this game, so you don't know certain things. You don't know how important Tactical Team is. You don't realize Aceton Beam is a horrible skill. And you definitely don't know such advanced skills as keybinds to trigger multiple skills at once, or even just re-balancing your shields as you fire.
But you do know enough to shoot at your enemies and you hope to learn more and have fun doing it. Instead, you're up against a full fleet team of Sad Pandas, or Angry Clowns, or Show Me Your Critz, or TRIBBLE., or Nova Core, or whatever. So you get your TRIBBLE stomped. Hard.
You die horribly, again and again. And not only that, you see your teammates warp off, or take off their shields and stop trying. Let me ask you guys in those fleets I mentioned, is it any challenge, or even any fun, to fight that? On top of it all, you still try your best, but nobody on either side is giving you any pointers. Or any help at all.
So the match ends. It's 15-0, NOT in your favor, and I don't think I'm gonna have to tell you what this newb is thinking about PvP right now. Who knows? With the right training, and the right help, he might be a monster in PvP someday. But it's not gonna happen, because he's NEVER gonna queue again.
Look, all I'm saying is that maybe we should look into something a bit different. How about, 4-man or even 3-man pre-mades? That way, at least the newb can end up on the OWNING side for once, and at the end if it maybe that fleet can give him some pointers on what he might have done wrong.
I'm just saying that it's up to us, the guys who've been PvPing a while and are in good PvP fleets, to try and promote our own format. Because if we keep doing what we're doing, we're gonna end up killing PvP for sure.
Post edited by ertihan on
0
Comments
Edit: sometime you end up having a really good pug, you may even beat some of the fleets that are using new pilots or are not as experienced, that's why I said after 3-4 kills, you see how the pug is and act accordingly.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I think we can all do a better job of helping out the new guys. Its not hard to see who they are. I mean we see the same faces in pvp over and over, spotting the new guy isn't rocket science. I sent a new guy 3 blue shield doffs the other night and talked to him about his build... he won't be an all star tommorow but at least he knows why X and Y didn't work well... and what he needs to change and work on.
The real issue as I see it is some of the fleets that don't seem to care about fun at all. I mean do you really need to que as a 5 man and click jevonite on all your ships ? Or run ams x 5... or theta vent on mulitple ships... or run with 2-3 carriers or escort carriers and a ton of Tractor beaming pets ? The people that do that are the ones destroying pvp.
Sure we could and likely should all be going out of our way more to help bring new players up to speed. I mean more players is good for all of us. I will say that it drives me nuts to see well known fleets running teams of bs... that gives the entire community a black eye imo.
Premades don't ruin PvP. PUGs, that don't ignore their own ego long enough to realize that they are doing it wrong, ruin PvP.
Sure there's gonna be the occasional ego-driven idiot who tells me to stfu. I couldn't care less, I put him on ignore and move on. But I don't see this happening with many people. 90% of the time, they toss out a half-hearted, mostly insincere "gg" and the newb is still as much of a newb as when he went in. And THAT, imho, is what is killing PvP.
EDIT: I should mention, what I do (reaching out to the newbs) was how I was introduced to PvP. In other words, I was curbstomped in PvP, and my mentor, rather than sending a "u suk gtfo lololol" asked me if I wanted any help with my build. I'd have probably left PvP forever if he had just stayed silent, instead now I'm in a great fleet and I'm PvPing all the time. Reaching out makes a difference to newbs, whether you realize it or not. But you've gotta be willing to do it.
That's not a bad idea. I would add to have this thread sticky-ed on pve forum though, lol so ppl should get the message.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
The PvE in this game breeds bad players. You don't have to be good to spacebar your way through the story arc. Then you reach endgame, queue up for some PvP since there is nothing else interesting to do, and bam you're toast.
There are 2 ways to handle that situation.
1. Ask for help, because you know something is wrong.
2. Blame those Hax-ing Pandas or TSI or SOB... for not making it fair.
Should a player choose the 1st option, they have a chance. Most players in this game would be more than willing to offer help and advice. If you choose the 2nd option, well you end up with threads like this.
QFT, not fun at all. Hell, the Pandas rarely team up for PvP anymore. If we do, it's most certainly not our normal premade and usually occurs because we heard another fleet had a 5-man in the queus but won't accept or acknowledge a challenge.
Lately I have been sitting in esd space looking for 1v1 duels. One guy agreed, after seeing his ship I was sure it would be a close fight. Turns out it only took a couple DHC shots to defeat him. nonetheless he continued getting defeated 5 times. afterwards I offered to help him, a day lator and he is putting up a very good fight. He also recommended his friend get some tips. now both are considering joining the fleet im in. so if you see someone strugling help them, you'll be helping pvp stay alive, and possibly get more fleet members!
I fly the MVAE, and my build is decent, and maybe switching to the defiant or saving for a jem'hadar bug ship would help. but imo flying the MVAE is way more fun.
For the most part, this is true. It's not fun.
But sometimes its hard to believe when the premade hops into a relatively dead queue with 2 carriers spamming danubes with maybe an escort carrier in there too.
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
Stomping inexperienced players can't be fun for any pvper, I refuse to think there is anybody sane that likes that. It ain't different than doing pve. Still, I think that aside easiness of pve, some steps could be taken by cryptic, do some basic pvp tutorials, similar to how they introduced bortie and ody, create some 2-2, 3-3 queues for lower levels (it's not that likely to fight experienced pvpers as you level), make pve on elite harder, with npcs that use player abilities and have player like skill tree, etc. prior to pvp as level 50, introduce some hard pve missions that give decent rewards and only after completing those get access to pvp. It's not only about experienced pvpers giving advice, it's also about the pve simple mentality that's formed as you start playing the game. Brandon, you're 100% right!
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
^^
I think this more then anything has a lot to do with it... There are a few in-game Channels a Newb can go to for help or to try and get a pug made going. a lot of pvpers i know left in the game login more for the people then the game these days.. If they cant login and Play with there friends then whats the point??
Quote of the week:
Any large PVP fleets out there could hold some type of event where a large group of people gets together and does a private challenge.
lets say 10 members from the fleet join the challenge at first, 5 blue team, 5 red team. then one team heads to ESD and advertises for the large pvp event. the other team heads to ds9, or drozna, or some other area where people gather in large quantities. then they advertise for their side.
after its over, ask the experienced players for advice, offer inexperienced players help.
offer fleet invites, etc, etc.
maybe this would help grow the pvp community, while cutting down on the premades blitzkriegs in arenas
I haven't done any pvp in over a week; the no-win scenario offers a better challenge than most pvp matches.
HA, we run no win more then we pvp these days also... wanna beat the damn thing.
Quote of the week:
This sounds like a good idea, but are there any PVP fleets with 10 players left? That are all on at the same time?
& I gotta say I think the OP is somewhat correct. Is it really fun curbstomping pugs?
But ,in the premade teams defense, there is seldom more than 1 premade running at a time. & like HouseOfCritz said, I pretty much only play this game to hang out on TS with my friends.. We usually only run 2 or 3 of us together though, I can't remember the last time I ran in a full 5 man premade. Or, wanted to, to tell the truth. I'd rather try the no win scenario with a 5 man team than q up to destroy a pug in less than 5 minutes. & the few premade vs premade battles I've been in usually are so full of cheesy TRIBBLE coming from the fed side that I don't want to do them anymore. Being perma AMS'd, tractored, & sensor scrambled has kinda made me not even want to run in the "big league" PVP team fights. It's not fun. I'd be down for some KVK maybe.
dont warp out, your wasting people's time and preventing everyone from getting thier dil in a timely manner. just get killed in the most timely manner possible and don't sweat it. also, try to get better, your getting stomped because you are below the stomper's skill level. nothings stopping you from banding together in your own group as well. if you go puging, assume your going to get rolled, there is nothing stronger or more op in game then teamwork. cryptic cant nerf the people that know how to play.
i like going against premades some times, they tend to get complacent and i can get a kill off them every once and a wile. then the chase is on
Go jump in a fire.
Getting instapawned is not, and will never be a learning experience. Read the forums, post questions, yes. But pretending that a newb would be learning from roflstomps is a myth, we all know it.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
im not trying to pretend it is. its just dickish to warp out. this is the prevailing position on the subject, as you can see.
its a waist of time for everyone that waited for the que to pop, which can take a wile by its self. roll or get rolled, at least you get ec and credit for the dil daily if you stay.
there is a problemwith bad premades.
As I am in a fleet whose members don't like PvP usually PUG alone if i want to do a PvP.
I have no problem running in a Premade that kills of the team 15-0 in 4-5 minutes. Easy earned Dil at least.
The Problem is when you (as klingon) run into a Fed premade which is good enough to avoid getting killed (due to good teamwork) but simply to weak to do real damage.
Yesterday I was on PvP in a secondary toon (KDF eng, Mirror Vorcha, STf-build with Borg weapons and DHC! - usually completly useless in PvP but more than enough to stomp Fed Pugs with KDF Pugs ^^) and teamed with the worst possible combination (2 carriers, 2 other cruiser, no Escort!). Against a premade. The conbination alone told me that this should be quick.
I was wrong.
It took them over 20 min to get the 15 kills, I even managed to score 2 kills against them.
so please: no problem getting stomped. But please do it right!
I'd rather a PvP match lasting 15/20mins, even if the opposing team is winning by a huge margine. I don't mind getting rolled, just dislike getting rolled by the same team 2 or 3 times in a row? plus similar to STFs some players don't bother to look at their team chat, so sometimes my "Target : suchandsuch" doesn't get noticed
RachelJ88
I can think of a lot of sto players who, grouped together and not even on voice comms, who would be capable of dishing out twice the stomping of certain 'premades'. What's your excuse then? They might not be a premade, or on comms, or maybe even mot calling targets but still stomp the average pug. Still warp out?
You aren't warping vs a premade, you warp when it looks likyou might lose, same fleet tag is just a convenient excuse.
- I log on, planning to spend an hour or two pvping
- I que up
- I meet a premade, 5 minutes later the match is over, 0-15
- I que up again
- I meet a premade, 5 minutes later the match is over, 0-15
- I log off.
That's it. If I'm not having fun, I log.
I can't really agree here, premades DO ruin PVP, if there was a separate queue for people in groups of more then two it wouldn't be a problem. If you want to play with your friends thats not a problem, playing with friends is good, but you know how they play, you know what they use and what ship they pilot, and in most cases you're all or some at least on TS or Vent so there are so many advantages over potential PUGs. There needs to be a queue for groups any bigger then 2 so they can at least fight other groups on equal terms.
If it's just you and one other friend then join the normal ones where newer players would join alone, that way if there's 5 of you then there's a good chance you'd see at lest 2/5 of your premade on the other side and assuming your of a similar ability, the match will be balanced and a balanced match where you couldn't pick the winning side because it's so equal is always the best of PVP.
I call for two PVP Arena queues, regardless of mixing factions or not, for singles & pairs plus one for any groups numbering 3 or more. Problem solved.
The solution isn't warping out, that doesn't fix any problems, it just makes matters worse. Man up and take it on the chin like everyone else. I used to warp when it was pointless to continue, then when it started happening to groups I was in I got really annoyed about it. You can't have it both ways.
That problem would go away if there were more PVPers in the community, sadly anyone who starts getting good then gets poached into the best PVP fleets and thats that. You and others can say "Oh well we never really play anymore, nobody wants to fight us, despite how small we are!" I see Critz & Pandas all over the queues day after day, other fleets can't make meaningful premades if we don't have enough actual PVPers to do it.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
OP is right. If someone who never played PvP or played it for short time without meeting a premade and meets premade of any sort (so true premade or simply 3-5 players from same PvP fleet) he most likely will never return. Or just return as AFKer to get their dillithium.
And no, they will never learn from such fights. It's like putting a 10 years old kid who wants to learn some martial art against a master. And asking master to roflstomp the kid. Yeah, great learning method.
Ok, I get that premades want their fun. I also get that they want to play with friends. And I even get that today, in the sad state PvP is it is hard to find another premade (and one that is willing to fight). But premades (as in more then 3 players from one PvP fleet in a team) are killing PvP as much Cryptic is. Cause only an idiot will get into the fight he KNOWS he will loose.
Loosing against someone in training or challenge is one thing - you accepted it. Loosing against premade when you expected some randomly grouped team is another.
I'd rather do some PVP in Kerrat, where anything usually goes and anything can happen than join a PUG QUE and be teamed with new players against very exerienced players!
In Kerrat, when I see the Federation being beaten down at spawn, I fly around healing whoever the klingons are focus firing on. I don't even fire my weapons save for to destroy the dozens of Aceton Assimulators being spammed all over the map. Best way to deal with them is to drop my Photon Torpedo Turrets a few clicks nearby. :P