What is the B'Rel retrofit? What is the Hegh'ta? They are both Tier 5 B.O.P.s . They are listed as raiders, which are B.O.P.'s, Raptors are the escorts for the KDF.
The turn rates for STO's ships in general are already too high, I feel. If there were some other way to imbue these spacecraft with a sense of their scale, I'd be all for raising the turn rates, but as it is, I think their maneuverability is the only thing barely keeping them from feeling smaller than a breadbox.
The turn rates for STO's ships in general are already too high, I feel. If there were some other way to imbue these spacecraft with a sense of their scale, I'd be all for raising the turn rates, but as it is, I think their maneuverability is the only thing barely keeping them from feeling smaller than a breadbox.
I have to admit that one of my favorite memories of this game was when I first got into a Galaxy class and started to turn. I knew that in the long run it was going to be bad for the ship, I knew that it had a terrible terrible turn rate... but man, lol. When I saw her turn like the massive ship that it is, that was pretty awesome.
I think they can keep that feeling but change the way ships turn in the game.
Smaller ships should be able to start and finish their turns and maneuvers rapidly.
Larger ships should take more time starting their maneuvers but once they are committed to it, they are able to turn quite quickly. Kind of like a large car going into a sharp corner, they slow down to take the correct angle then power out of the turn. Sure the smaller car doesn't have to slow down as much and won't have the same power as the larger car, but they balance out in the end.
It would be like a person on rollerblades vs a person on a bike. Neither one of them suddenly cranks out a 90 degree turn. They have to ease into it. On a bike you have your mass and the mass of the bike to take into account. While on the rollerblades you really only have your own mass to be aware of. So one will naturally be able to make more rapid maneuvers.
But once the biker is committed to the turn, he can make that turn just as fast as the person on the rollerblades can. Does that make any sense?
There never going balance cruisers no matter what you guys think. They never read forums, never listen to consumers regarding to the main problems with the game.
They only thing they know how to do good is take your money and use it for creating more useless C-Store TRIBBLE to keep the game on life support. This game is dead is terms of future balancing and development.
I agree on the turn rates. My KDF character's ship is much more fun to fly due to the turn rate. Another thing that bugs me about ship movements is the ship can not do a vertical U turn, or barrel roll. It is space you should not be limited to a flat plane. There are times that a target is above or bellow me and I can not focus my cannons at it. Having a limit to how you are allowed to maneuver your ship does make some combat a bit harder.
that depends where you start to count. In general i do not count from t0...ltd ships are t1, making ltdcmdr ships t2 imho.
But i see many people here refering to starter ships as t0...making captain lvl ships t3 and only c-store ships are considered t5.
cryptic themselves calls all ships with 12 BOFF slots t5 ships actually. and so does STOWIKI
i hope that settles the confusion about tiers for good.
Base model Norgh (at start of Klink character)
Somraw raptor (boy was I glad to be out of that)-there's a BoP equivalent I can't remember the name of...
Hegh'ta.
If you count back and add the Qul'Dun (equivalent BoP to your Light Cruiser every Fed starts with), that makes four tiers-four levels of ships.
That's like saying your base-model assault cruiser (not the C-store version, the one you get at R Admiral L/H) is a Tier 5 ship.
Cause you're a Brigadier at Level 40.
The B'rel Refit's a step DOWN and to the side from that-the fancy cloak makes it a one-trick pony that will STILL get detected in plenty of time by even a half-blind Sci ship, and your hull numbers for ALL BoP classes are thinner skinned than the equivalent level Escorts, along with having fewer Console slots total-taken on the whole, the entire CLASS of Bird of Prey is one step DOWN from the equivalent Escorts, Sci Ships, or Cruisers on the other side of the line.
Battlecloak gives a 5 second damage boost that doesn't QUITE match the four tactical consoles in your typical RA level Escort or Cruiser, with a hull that's thinner than the escort, less power to run to aux and more dependence on stacking Bridge officers to make up what you can't install as equipment and...oh, yeah, your shield multiplier-less than the escort as well.
Raptors, on the other hand, combine traits of Cruisers (TRIBBLE manuevering) with weapons of Escorts. it would be a bit like taking your Constitution class, adding two weapons and an RCS console-they ARE that bad compared to FedScorts in the same ranges. a T3 Science vessel will out-turn a "tier 3/4" Raptor, and can broadside besides, with more shields and a thicker hull, plus all the neat science-ship powers that strip buffs and TRIBBLE up subsystems-a Raptor really only shines against CRUISERS-and only briefly if the Cruiser jock knows what he's got and what he's doing.
IOW the Raptor is only an "Escort" because Cryptic SAYS it is. The stats, turn/handling and such more or less resemble a gimped Sci ship or 3/4 of a Cruiser.
Captain level ships are Tier 4
Say what you will. Brigadier General and up ships are top tier (Tier 5) .
RALH and up ships are Tier 5
The Assault Cruiser is a Tier 5 ship.
As of yet, there are no Tier 6 ships.
The purchased ships are still Tier 5 (most people call them Tier 5+)
that depends where you start to count. In general i do not count from t0...ltd ships are t1, making ltdcmdr ships t2 imho.
But i see many people here refering to starter ships as t0...making captain lvl ships t3 and only c-store ships are considered t5.
cryptic themselves calls all ships with 12 BOFF slots t5 ships actually. and so does STOWIKI
i hope that settles the confusion about tiers for good.
Honestly, I don't understand people justifying the Fed Cruisers having "low turnrate" as = That's the way it should be.
In 3 years of TOS, 7 years of TNG and 10 feature films, not once did you see the Enterprise as a "flying brick". In most cases when you saw it's maneuverability up close, it was rather nimble. Just look at the Enterprise-E when it first engages the Borg in First Contact (and the massive size differential compared to the "little" Defiant).
I'd say, if you don't want to bump both Fed Cruisers and KDF Battle Cruisers equally, i'd say the very least could be a 1-pt bump across the board for Fed Cruisers, and a 2-pt bump across the board for KDF Battle Cruisers. Being that KDF are "Battle" cruisers, they should naturally be a bit more agile than their Federation counterparts.
On the other hand, in canon, a Galaxy is pretty evenly matched against a Vor'cha, with the likely outcome being that the Negh'var should be equal to a Sovereign. As is, this is far from true in STO.
One thing I like about Science ships is their innate "shield boost" giving them the best shield strengths in the game. However, Cruisers should enjoy a similar shield boost, thou not necessarily as high as the Science ships. Cruisers have a high hull value to compensate for lower shields.
I'd say, if you don't want to bump both Fed Cruisers and KDF Battle Cruisers equally, i'd say the very least could be a 1-pt bump across the board for Fed Cruisers, and a 2-pt bump across the board for KDF Battle Cruisers. Being that KDF are "Battle" cruisers, they should naturally be a bit more agile than their Federation counterparts.
Honestly, I don't understand people justifying the Fed Cruisers having "low turnrate" as = That's the way it should be.
In 3 years of TOS, 7 years of TNG and 10 feature films, not once did you see the Enterprise as a "flying brick". In most cases when you saw it's maneuverability up close, it was rather nimble. Just look at the Enterprise-E when it first engages the Borg in First Contact (and the massive size differential compared to the "little" Defiant).
I'd say, if you don't want to bump both Fed Cruisers and KDF Battle Cruisers equally, i'd say the very least could be a 1-pt bump across the board for Fed Cruisers, and a 2-pt bump across the board for KDF Battle Cruisers. Being that KDF are "Battle" cruisers, they should naturally be a bit more agile than their Federation counterparts.
On the other hand, in canon, a Galaxy is pretty evenly matched against a Vor'cha, with the likely outcome being that the Negh'var should be equal to a Sovereign. As is, this is far from true in STO.
One thing I like about Science ships is their innate "shield boost" giving them the best shield strengths in the game. However, Cruisers should enjoy a similar shield boost, thou not necessarily as high as the Science ships. Cruisers have a high hull value to compensate for lower shields.
I am not against the shield boost for cruisers. The whole way distributed power to shields works doesn't make me swoon for joy. I would argue certain classification of ships should be able to have higher than 125 power to its systems and make it worth something. Weapon, Engine and Aux power are direct reflections of the power, while shield power is only used for recovery of shields back to capacity.
Honestly, I don't understand people justifying the Fed Cruisers having "low turnrate" as = That's the way it should be.
In 3 years of TOS, 7 years of TNG and 10 feature films, not once did you see the Enterprise as a "flying brick". In most cases when you saw it's maneuverability up close, it was rather nimble. Just look at the Enterprise-E when it first engages the Borg in First Contact (and the massive size differential compared to the "little" Defiant).
I'd say, if you don't want to bump both Fed Cruisers and KDF Battle Cruisers equally, i'd say the very least could be a 1-pt bump across the board for Fed Cruisers, and a 2-pt bump across the board for KDF Battle Cruisers. Being that KDF are "Battle" cruisers, they should naturally be a bit more agile than their Federation counterparts.
On the other hand, in canon, a Galaxy is pretty evenly matched against a Vor'cha, with the likely outcome being that the Negh'var should be equal to a Sovereign. As is, this is far from true in STO.
One thing I like about Science ships is their innate "shield boost" giving them the best shield strengths in the game. However, Cruisers should enjoy a similar shield boost, thou not necessarily as high as the Science ships. Cruisers have a high hull value to compensate for lower shields.
You do understand a one point boost in turn rate wont translate as well as you think it will, the inertial differences in some ships will come into play and lower ships (unless they put more power to engines) will probably only see a minor (unnoticable) boost in thier turn rates, Galaxies and Oddy's probably wont notice the boost in gameplay (.75 - 1.5 degrees depending on engineer consoles). The lesser inertial encumbered ships will. And the +2 for Klingon cruisers (especially the Vorcha and its ilk) will have a much more noticeable effect.
It would be great for the Klingons (enough for me to get a Fleet T5 Vorcha hull, if there is one), not as great as you think for the Fed' ships.
It would be great for the Klingons (enough for me to get a Fleet T5 Vorcha hull, if there is one), not as great as you think for the Fed' ships.
Fleet Tor'Kaht Retrofit. The perfect cruiser. High hull, great console and BOff setup. Great base turn rate. Also not aesthetically displeasing. Once you step inside, you will never leave. Best part is that it only requires a Tier 2 shipyard.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
at this point if the kdf cruisers had any better turn rate, their defense score would plummet due to their inertia cutting speed and them starting to slide. this already happens on a vorcha with 2 turn consoles. the kdf need an inertia buff, and the fed cruisers need a turn buff.
You do understand a one point boost in turn rate wont translate as well as you think it will, the inertial differences in some ships will come into play and lower ships (unless they put more power to engines) will probably only see a minor (unnoticable) boost in thier turn rates, Galaxies and Oddy's probably wont notice the boost in gameplay (.75 - 1.5 degrees depending on engineer consoles). The lesser inertial encumbered ships will. And the +2 for Klingon cruisers (especially the Vorcha and its ilk) will have a much more noticeable effect.
Then perhaps it's not necessarily the "Turn Rate" that needs re-tuning, but rather the Inertia applied to every ship.
DITL.org (thou pretty much NON-Canon by most sources), seem to indicate that a Galaxy and Negh'var have a relatively similar mass. And going solely by mass values, the two should have relatively equal turn rates/inertia. On the other hand, it also says the Sovereign (Assault Cruiser), has aprox. 4 times the Combat Maneuverability than the Galaxy.
Or perhaps you have to come to terms that most MMOs have set classes that balance out different traits. The cruisers fit into the tank class. NOT doing the most damage, but taking most of the damage. This class is slow and lumbering but withstands the attacks so that nimble, lesser defended, classes deal the damage to stop the enemy.
Healer, attacker, tank. In this game it's not the tank that needs to be turned into the attacker.
That is precisely what you are requesting.
If you want the tank ability, you suffer the lumbering nature. That's how it works. It's not based on your perceived interpretation of what "canon" is. In no ST movie or show has the Enterprise been portrayed as anything but massive and slow. Look at the DS9 footage showing the Defiant in combat. You can't have that on a cruiser.
You can't turn the tank into an attacker. So stop whining and whinging about it nonstop. 22 frakking pages of this nonsense.
Or perhaps you have to come to terms that most MMOs have set classes that balance out different traits. The cruisers fit into the tank class. NOT doing the most damage, but taking most of the damage. This class is slow and lumbering but withstands the attacks so that nimble, lesser defended, classes deal the damage to stop the enemy.
Healer, attacker, tank. In this game it's not the tank that needs to be turned into the attacker.
That is precisely what you are requesting.
If you want the tank ability, you suffer the lumbering nature. That's how it works. It's not based on your perceived interpretation of what "canon" is. In no ST movie or show has the Enterprise been portrayed as anything but massive and slow. Look at the DS9 footage showing the Defiant in combat. You can't have that on a cruiser.
You can't turn the tank into an attacker. So stop whining and whinging about it nonstop. 22 frakking pages of this nonsense.
Bolded part. That's where you are wrong. Sure, the Enterprise is massive, but it's also rather nimble, for it's size. And it's been shown as such many times over.
Second, who says we need to conform to the "traditional" Tank/Healer/DPS combo? Why can't all ships have a relatively "equal" balance, with Cruisers having Higher hull, and Escorts having Higher dps? Why does it automatically have to be that the "massive ships are nothing more than lumbering bricks" ? If I were to install a V8 engine into a Model-T Ford (assuming the two are remotely compatible), the Model-T wouldn't be a "lumbering brick" anymore. Why couldn't the same idea be applied to starships? If you have a high power output, and advanced engines, both of which should be capable of compensating for the large mass. After all, in Newtonian physics, an object in motion, tends to stay in motion. Mass has very little difference in space.
LOL you haven't got a leg to stand on, either in ST semantics or in MMO setups.
Stop whining about it. You're trying to destroy the basic class setup in the game. If you make a cruiser as nimble as an escort (your end goal) nobody flies escorts anymore, nobody does anything but these new overpowered cruisers.
Second, who says we need to conform to the "traditional" Tank/Healer/DPS combo? Why can't all ships have a relatively "equal" balance, with Cruisers having Higher hull, and Escorts having Higher dps? Why does it automatically have to be that the "massive ships are nothing more than lumbering bricks" ? If I were to install a V8 engine into a Model-T Ford (assuming the two are remotely compatible), the Model-T wouldn't be a "lumbering brick" anymore. Why couldn't the same idea be applied to starships? If you have a high power output, and advanced engines, both of which should be capable of compensating for the large mass. After all, in Newtonian physics, an object in motion, tends to stay in motion. Mass has very little difference in space.
Yes, this is 100% right, Star Trek is not DPS/Healer/Tank. The problem is that not enough people oppose this set up, if this was an accurate representation then yes tacs would push more damage but cruisers and science would still be competant
Bolded part. That's where you are wrong. Sure, the Enterprise is massive, but it's also rather nimble, for it's size. And it's been shown as such many times over.
Second, who says we need to conform to the "traditional" Tank/Healer/DPS combo? Why can't all ships have a relatively "equal" balance, with Cruisers having Higher hull, and Escorts having Higher dps? Why does it automatically have to be that the "massive ships are nothing more than lumbering bricks" ? If I were to install a V8 engine into a Model-T Ford (assuming the two are remotely compatible), the Model-T wouldn't be a "lumbering brick" anymore. Why couldn't the same idea be applied to starships? If you have a high power output, and advanced engines, both of which should be capable of compensating for the large mass. After all, in Newtonian physics, an object in motion, tends to stay in motion. Mass has very little difference in space.
LOL you haven't got a leg to stand on, either in ST semantics or in MMO setups.
Stop whining about it. You're trying to destroy the basic class setup in the game. If you make a cruiser as nimble as an escort (your end goal) nobody flies escorts anymore, nobody does anything but these new overpowered cruisers.
Yes, this is 100% right, Star Trek is not DPS/Healer/Tank. The problem is that not enough people oppose this set up, if this was an accurate representation then yes tacs would push more damage but cruisers and science would still be competant
So how is any of this arguing even remotely related to the OP asking for an increase in turn rate?
Meurik, mass actually does affect what goes on in space.
Rodentmaster, we aren't asking for the mobility of escorts, just to be able to get our butts around a little more easily.
Adam... well you already know what I have to say to you lol (been in too damn many threads together XD).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I'm sure by now someone has already mention DS9, Defiant vs Lakota, mirror Defiant vs. mirror Negh'var. Thread should have ended with that. Weight is irrelevant in space, but mass and inertia are not. Cruisers are just not going to turn like escorts, period. You will never get the indestructible tank cruiser you're dreaming about that turns well enough to keep cannons trained on a smaller target, nor should you.
If your tactics as a cruiser captain involve juking and turning like you're in a dogfight, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
I'm sure by now someone has already mention DS9, Defiant vs Lakota, mirror Defiant vs. mirror Negh'var. Thread should have ended with that. Weight is irrelevant in space, but mass and inertia are not. Cruisers are just not going to turn like escorts, period. You will never get the indestructible tank cruiser you're dreaming about that turns well enough to keep cannons trained on a smaller target, nor should you.
If your tactics as a cruiser captain involve juking and turning like you're in a dogfight, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
I agree.
I have yet to see the episode or movie where the Enterprise nimbly dodges around in combat like a vessel with a quarter of its mass.
I've seen plenty where the Enterprise acted just like the big massive vessel it was and moved accordingly in combat.
Asking for a Turnrate increase is fine if all vessel all equally given a better quality of gameplay buff but the bulk of this thread is asking for the Cruiser to also be the Escort or Science vessel as well which may fit with the Scripts of the episodes but is nothing but unbalanced and fan driven drivel in the game.
I agree.
I have yet to see the episode or movie where the Enterprise nimbly dodges around in combat like a vessel with a quarter of its mass.
I've seen plenty where the Enterprise acted just like the big massive vessel it was and moved accordingly in combat.
Asking for a Turnrate increase is fine if all vessel all equally given a better quality of gameplay buff but the bulk of this thread is asking for the Cruiser to also be the Escort or Science vessel as well which may fit with the Scripts of the episodes but is nothing but unbalanced and fan driven drivel in the game.
Meh. Many of the peeps who posted in here are asking for that. But the suggestion you made earlier about giving an all around turn bonus to both fed cruisers and kdf bcs was fine by me. Give both sides a +2 to turn rate, maybe a little bit more bite with weapons (at least for fed whales), and I would be happy(er).
EDIT: Also I would like to point out that fed cruisers could never become like escorts, simply due to console layout. Too much sci and engi to get the needed tac.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Asking for a Turnrate increase is fine if all vessel all equally given a better quality of gameplay buff but the bulk of this thread is asking for the Cruiser to also be the Escort or Science vessel as well which may fit with the Scripts of the episodes but is nothing but unbalanced and fan driven drivel in the game.
your imagining things, i haven't seen a claim more outrageous then mine, asking for +2 to fed cruisers. fed cruisers with +2 more turn would still be well below escorts and science ships, and less then a match for kdf cruisers. is odysseys, galaxys, and even bortasqus turning at 8, a threat to cannon wielding escorts and kdf cruisers, or ever nimble sci ships?
how about star and assault cruisers turning at 9, merely as well as the great big negvar? oh but then there is the excelsior and fleet heavy cruiser, it would turn at 10! and be unable to exploit that trun rate half as well as even a vorcha R could for dealing damage.
there are several turn rate tiers in this game, 20+ is bop and bug territory, 17-15 is escort territory, 14-11 is sci ship territory, and 11-9 is kdf cruiser territory. oh but then at the non carrier bottom theres fed cruisers with 8-6, were no turn console can help you, no skill based multiplier can save you, and everything that deals damage can easily stay glued to a single shield faceing.
there shouldn't be such a different tier of turning between fed and kdf, there should simply be a cruiser tier. fed cruisers will continue to not be able to deal damage like a kdf cruiser, they will simply not be anti fun to fly.
your imagining things, i haven't seen a claim more outrageous then mine, asking for +2 to fed cruisers. fed cruisers with +2 more turn would still be well below escorts and science ships, and less then a match for kdf cruisers. is odysseys, galaxys, and even bortasqus turning at 8, a threat to cannon wielding escorts and kdf cruisers, or ever nimble sci ships?
how about star and assault cruisers turning at 9, merely as well as the great big negvar? oh but then there is the excelsior and fleet heavy cruiser, it would turn at 10! and be unable to exploit that trun rate half as well as even a vorcha R could for dealing damage.
there are several turn rate tiers in this game, 20+ is bop and bug territory, 17-15 is escort territory, 14-11 is sci ship territory, and 11-9 is kdf cruiser territory. oh but then at the non carrier bottom theres fed cruisers with 8-6, were no turn console can help you, no skill based multiplier can save you, and everything that deals damage can easily stay glued to a single shield faceing.
there shouldn't be such a different tier of turning between fed and kdf, there should simply be a cruiser tier. fed cruisers will continue to not be able to deal damage like a kdf cruiser, they will simply not be anti fun to fly.
I think most of us certainly could live with a change like that.
I am ok that cruisers are much slower than escorts or even slower turning as smaller Science ships, but some cruisers turn rate are just not acceptable.
Your suggestion surely wouldn't break any "balancing" issues, but it would make the game a bit less boring. Especially when flying a cruiser.
I see the Federation/Klingon Cruiser turning problem similar like you, their low level turning rate just can't be overcomed without radically diminishing their other (very little) advantages.
Once a enemy Escort has weakend one of your shield facings there is little chance to get rid of it. Of course you can run 2x Tac team, but it would leave some cruisers without ANY offensive powers at all!
Does the same apply to escorts? Do escorts have to sacrifice all of their survivability powers just to be able to generate enough attack power to servely damage an enemy?
I'm not asking to give Cruisers Dogifighting abilities, but they should be able to be maneuverable enough to present a different shield facing to their enemy by default.
I stopped doing PvP for a long time by now and as someone who prefers to play PvE missions and STFs i can say that having a Cruiser with a bit more maneuverability would be much less annoying.
Most of the time i would spend cursing and being annoyed about that "elephant on Ice".
Adding +2 to their maneuverability would make all Cruisers much more attractive and much less annoying to fly.
Thank you for reading.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Fleet Tor'Kaht Retrofit. The perfect cruiser. High hull, great console and BOff setup. Great base turn rate. Also not aesthetically displeasing. Once you step inside, you will never leave. Best part is that it only requires a Tier 2 shipyard.
Hmmmmmmmm..... ou mean that I actually have to grind my Klink now? Were still at Tier 0. :eek:
Comments
Actually the Hegh'ta is a T4, I think.
R.I.P
Just checked the Klingon Shipyard at Qo'Nos, Hegh'ta is a Brigadier General ship (Tier 5)
I have to admit that one of my favorite memories of this game was when I first got into a Galaxy class and started to turn. I knew that in the long run it was going to be bad for the ship, I knew that it had a terrible terrible turn rate... but man, lol. When I saw her turn like the massive ship that it is, that was pretty awesome.
I think they can keep that feeling but change the way ships turn in the game.
Smaller ships should be able to start and finish their turns and maneuvers rapidly.
Larger ships should take more time starting their maneuvers but once they are committed to it, they are able to turn quite quickly. Kind of like a large car going into a sharp corner, they slow down to take the correct angle then power out of the turn. Sure the smaller car doesn't have to slow down as much and won't have the same power as the larger car, but they balance out in the end.
It would be like a person on rollerblades vs a person on a bike. Neither one of them suddenly cranks out a 90 degree turn. They have to ease into it. On a bike you have your mass and the mass of the bike to take into account. While on the rollerblades you really only have your own mass to be aware of. So one will naturally be able to make more rapid maneuvers.
But once the biker is committed to the turn, he can make that turn just as fast as the person on the rollerblades can. Does that make any sense?
They only thing they know how to do good is take your money and use it for creating more useless C-Store TRIBBLE to keep the game on life support. This game is dead is terms of future balancing and development.
McCoy: STO's dead Jim.
And it always will be.
that depends where you start to count. In general i do not count from t0...ltd ships are t1, making ltdcmdr ships t2 imho.
But i see many people here refering to starter ships as t0...making captain lvl ships t3 and only c-store ships are considered t5.
cryptic themselves calls all ships with 12 BOFF slots t5 ships actually. and so does STOWIKI
i hope that settles the confusion about tiers for good.
Captain level ships are Tier 4
Say what you will. Brigadier General and up ships are top tier (Tier 5) .
RALH and up ships are Tier 5
The Hegh'Ta only has 11 BOff slots though........
R.I.P
noticed, and so does the b'rel retrofit...stowiki/cryptic still counts both as t5
PS: suddenly i can also see what the "supposed" advantage of the ning'tao is:eek:
In 3 years of TOS, 7 years of TNG and 10 feature films, not once did you see the Enterprise as a "flying brick". In most cases when you saw it's maneuverability up close, it was rather nimble. Just look at the Enterprise-E when it first engages the Borg in First Contact (and the massive size differential compared to the "little" Defiant).
I'd say, if you don't want to bump both Fed Cruisers and KDF Battle Cruisers equally, i'd say the very least could be a 1-pt bump across the board for Fed Cruisers, and a 2-pt bump across the board for KDF Battle Cruisers. Being that KDF are "Battle" cruisers, they should naturally be a bit more agile than their Federation counterparts.
On the other hand, in canon, a Galaxy is pretty evenly matched against a Vor'cha, with the likely outcome being that the Negh'var should be equal to a Sovereign. As is, this is far from true in STO.
One thing I like about Science ships is their innate "shield boost" giving them the best shield strengths in the game. However, Cruisers should enjoy a similar shield boost, thou not necessarily as high as the Science ships. Cruisers have a high hull value to compensate for lower shields.
R.I.P
I am not against the shield boost for cruisers. The whole way distributed power to shields works doesn't make me swoon for joy. I would argue certain classification of ships should be able to have higher than 125 power to its systems and make it worth something. Weapon, Engine and Aux power are direct reflections of the power, while shield power is only used for recovery of shields back to capacity.
You do understand a one point boost in turn rate wont translate as well as you think it will, the inertial differences in some ships will come into play and lower ships (unless they put more power to engines) will probably only see a minor (unnoticable) boost in thier turn rates, Galaxies and Oddy's probably wont notice the boost in gameplay (.75 - 1.5 degrees depending on engineer consoles). The lesser inertial encumbered ships will. And the +2 for Klingon cruisers (especially the Vorcha and its ilk) will have a much more noticeable effect.
It would be great for the Klingons (enough for me to get a Fleet T5 Vorcha hull, if there is one), not as great as you think for the Fed' ships.
Fleet Tor'Kaht Retrofit. The perfect cruiser. High hull, great console and BOff setup. Great base turn rate. Also not aesthetically displeasing. Once you step inside, you will never leave. Best part is that it only requires a Tier 2 shipyard.
at this point if the kdf cruisers had any better turn rate, their defense score would plummet due to their inertia cutting speed and them starting to slide. this already happens on a vorcha with 2 turn consoles. the kdf need an inertia buff, and the fed cruisers need a turn buff.
Then perhaps it's not necessarily the "Turn Rate" that needs re-tuning, but rather the Inertia applied to every ship.
DITL.org (thou pretty much NON-Canon by most sources), seem to indicate that a Galaxy and Negh'var have a relatively similar mass. And going solely by mass values, the two should have relatively equal turn rates/inertia. On the other hand, it also says the Sovereign (Assault Cruiser), has aprox. 4 times the Combat Maneuverability than the Galaxy.
Healer, attacker, tank. In this game it's not the tank that needs to be turned into the attacker.
That is precisely what you are requesting.
If you want the tank ability, you suffer the lumbering nature. That's how it works. It's not based on your perceived interpretation of what "canon" is. In no ST movie or show has the Enterprise been portrayed as anything but massive and slow. Look at the DS9 footage showing the Defiant in combat. You can't have that on a cruiser.
You can't turn the tank into an attacker. So stop whining and whinging about it nonstop. 22 frakking pages of this nonsense.
Bolded part. That's where you are wrong. Sure, the Enterprise is massive, but it's also rather nimble, for it's size. And it's been shown as such many times over.
Second, who says we need to conform to the "traditional" Tank/Healer/DPS combo? Why can't all ships have a relatively "equal" balance, with Cruisers having Higher hull, and Escorts having Higher dps? Why does it automatically have to be that the "massive ships are nothing more than lumbering bricks" ? If I were to install a V8 engine into a Model-T Ford (assuming the two are remotely compatible), the Model-T wouldn't be a "lumbering brick" anymore. Why couldn't the same idea be applied to starships? If you have a high power output, and advanced engines, both of which should be capable of compensating for the large mass. After all, in Newtonian physics, an object in motion, tends to stay in motion. Mass has very little difference in space.
Stop whining about it. You're trying to destroy the basic class setup in the game. If you make a cruiser as nimble as an escort (your end goal) nobody flies escorts anymore, nobody does anything but these new overpowered cruisers.
Yes, this is 100% right, Star Trek is not DPS/Healer/Tank. The problem is that not enough people oppose this set up, if this was an accurate representation then yes tacs would push more damage but cruisers and science would still be competant
So how is any of this arguing even remotely related to the OP asking for an increase in turn rate?
Meurik, mass actually does affect what goes on in space.
Rodentmaster, we aren't asking for the mobility of escorts, just to be able to get our butts around a little more easily.
Adam... well you already know what I have to say to you lol (been in too damn many threads together XD).
If your tactics as a cruiser captain involve juking and turning like you're in a dogfight, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
Hey, we're still asking for the same thing right? :P
I agree.
I have yet to see the episode or movie where the Enterprise nimbly dodges around in combat like a vessel with a quarter of its mass.
I've seen plenty where the Enterprise acted just like the big massive vessel it was and moved accordingly in combat.
Asking for a Turnrate increase is fine if all vessel all equally given a better quality of gameplay buff but the bulk of this thread is asking for the Cruiser to also be the Escort or Science vessel as well which may fit with the Scripts of the episodes but is nothing but unbalanced and fan driven drivel in the game.
R.I.P
Meh. Many of the peeps who posted in here are asking for that. But the suggestion you made earlier about giving an all around turn bonus to both fed cruisers and kdf bcs was fine by me. Give both sides a +2 to turn rate, maybe a little bit more bite with weapons (at least for fed whales), and I would be happy(er).
EDIT: Also I would like to point out that fed cruisers could never become like escorts, simply due to console layout. Too much sci and engi to get the needed tac.
your imagining things, i haven't seen a claim more outrageous then mine, asking for +2 to fed cruisers. fed cruisers with +2 more turn would still be well below escorts and science ships, and less then a match for kdf cruisers. is odysseys, galaxys, and even bortasqus turning at 8, a threat to cannon wielding escorts and kdf cruisers, or ever nimble sci ships?
how about star and assault cruisers turning at 9, merely as well as the great big negvar? oh but then there is the excelsior and fleet heavy cruiser, it would turn at 10! and be unable to exploit that trun rate half as well as even a vorcha R could for dealing damage.
there are several turn rate tiers in this game, 20+ is bop and bug territory, 17-15 is escort territory, 14-11 is sci ship territory, and 11-9 is kdf cruiser territory. oh but then at the non carrier bottom theres fed cruisers with 8-6, were no turn console can help you, no skill based multiplier can save you, and everything that deals damage can easily stay glued to a single shield faceing.
there shouldn't be such a different tier of turning between fed and kdf, there should simply be a cruiser tier. fed cruisers will continue to not be able to deal damage like a kdf cruiser, they will simply not be anti fun to fly.
I am ok that cruisers are much slower than escorts or even slower turning as smaller Science ships, but some cruisers turn rate are just not acceptable.
Your suggestion surely wouldn't break any "balancing" issues, but it would make the game a bit less boring. Especially when flying a cruiser.
I see the Federation/Klingon Cruiser turning problem similar like you, their low level turning rate just can't be overcomed without radically diminishing their other (very little) advantages.
Once a enemy Escort has weakend one of your shield facings there is little chance to get rid of it. Of course you can run 2x Tac team, but it would leave some cruisers without ANY offensive powers at all!
Does the same apply to escorts? Do escorts have to sacrifice all of their survivability powers just to be able to generate enough attack power to servely damage an enemy?
I'm not asking to give Cruisers Dogifighting abilities, but they should be able to be maneuverable enough to present a different shield facing to their enemy by default.
I stopped doing PvP for a long time by now and as someone who prefers to play PvE missions and STFs i can say that having a Cruiser with a bit more maneuverability would be much less annoying.
Most of the time i would spend cursing and being annoyed about that "elephant on Ice".
Adding +2 to their maneuverability would make all Cruisers much more attractive and much less annoying to fly.
Thank you for reading.
Hmmmmmmmm..... ou mean that I actually have to grind my Klink now? Were still at Tier 0. :eek: