Fyi, I have TAC on the KDF side I could abuse Sci boff abilities w/a Tac as much as the next guy if I wanted. I don't want to though ... perhaps if you'd stop trying to think for others and put words in their mouths you'd know this. If you don't think Sci Fi even more so Star Trek has inspired actually technolgy just google "star trek inspired technology" and read.
Declaring your opinion to be fact and resorting to ad hominem attacks makes you look weaker and the adolescent, fyi. Everyone can see this but you. If you'd actually like to have an adult discussion on the matter let me know.
When you make an actual argument worth debating that isn't coming straight out of an RPers TRIBBLE or Butt Hurt Sci players TRIBBLE let me know champ. Till then you get the standard "You're a ****ing moron pveer" rant.
I'll make this simple for you chump. You have No Math proving that it's overpowered, because it isn't. All you have is an argument of "feel" which is a horrendous argument when it comes to Balance Discussions. Now if Tac sci were pumping more than an Escort or KDF Cruiser? You'd have an argument. But it doesn't.
When you have an argument that consists of more than "It breaks my immersion!" I'll actually debate with you. Till then, go Rp at drozana and stay off the forums.
I do have a tac. Mai Cake, i love using her in a defiant or excelisor. good stuff right there.
whenever i say insane damage, its relative to science or engineers flying a science ship. yes i know tacticals are supposed to do more damage then either, but when the tactical can do that extra damage over the sci AND have the same control powers the sci has with no downside then theres an issue.
Maybe you should play Mai Cake more till you are on Damians, MT, Aytanhi or even my level. And then go switch him over to a Recon or Fleet Nova, then come back and whine about how OP tac sci is with a straight face.
Sure they can have the same control powers. At the horrendous expense of their damage output. A sci is not affected nearly as much by a damage drop off as a tac is. (Particularly Tac Sci) you put Graviton consoles on for TBR (which is the only way presently to get a repel worth mentioning out of it against Good Players), and the tac's contribution to the team just became Nil, while he repels people around. You put it on a sci on the other hand, and BAM there goes his defenses, after you've kicked the opponent out of heal ranges.
So in other words the Repel Use for TBR ( a power you admit you hate using), has more benefit and use to a Sci Captain than a tac. Why it's almost like there's a trade off being made between having to do dps or not. "But tac can still buff it and do more damage!" Yeah... have you seen TBRs output without At Least One Particle generator? It's Terribad. +50 percent +30 percent +25 percent of Terribad is still Bad. A tac with gravitons is doing Jack And TRIBBLE to really help is team because he's wasting his best Asset.
VM? Sure it's amazing. It's a great power. But frankly it's better suited to a sci for two fold reasons. 1: It doesn't do DPS. Literally it deals 0. Tac Buffs mean nothing for it. 2: It forces a choice to be made on average between a Sci Team or Eng Team and you carry Sub Nuke as a sci capt.
Sure a tac can use it, but again it comes at the expense of dealing damage. The literal only facet of the class.
Now what else do sci captains do better than tacs. Oh gee I don't know... they have these two abilities.... one is called Sci Fleet, perhaps you have heard of it? Did you know, when you use it the whole team gets the benefit and it's benefit is a massively op shield resist? You did? Oh and you were ignoring it? How Quaint. Oh and it gets an ability called Scattering field, which omg makes stuff harder to kill too?
mmmm maybe this means Sci can more readily give up heals than a tac can? OMG! It's like a trade off is being made! So... lets see, lower damage powers = better use on the sci than the tac. And hot damn, they make far far better healers than do tacs since they can if necessary hold sci fleet back incase they get into trouble while passing heals around.
Oh and since they have no damage boosters, they can even more readily use ships that have less tac boff slots and get more benefit for doing so. (mm Helloooo Mr Intrepid... what's that? You carry a skill called Ablative armor? It makes you all but immune to damage since PSW got nut kicked so hard no one uses it anymore? mmm yay that's more heals for my team mates!) They both frankly get equal benefit out of Warp Plasma as well. Particularly mark 1. Which coincidentally enough is mountable on several sci ships now fedside. Oh and Sci get better use out of Chron Torps/mines, and even plas torps thanks to sensor scan in the case of the latter. Let's also not forget they get better miles out of Polarized Tet beams which are the only semi viable Strip in the game.
Sci heal better, and get more benefit per dollar, for using the Repel aspects of TBR, the disable of VM, and now frankly PSW. (since it's damage Sucks). Oh, and they can heal allies alot more safely than can a tac. Oh, they also get far more mileage out of Tykens Rift 3 and doff, since Tykens damage is Craptastic even with a 20 percent or less go down fighting boosting it. Why it's almost like people are upset about a score board and forgetting completely how the tac gets those monster numbers. Because his sci buddy has completely locked down the other team, or at least one target, ripped his defenses down. and the tac times his strike to coincide with that moment.
Kai, maybe you should play with the Critz for a while instead of your dead fleet, so you can relearn the value of Sci/Sci.
... SNIP ...
That's all I think is needed to balance... the dmg numbers... Frankly Tacticals should ALWAYS do more dmg in ANY ship then the other 2 classes... they DO NOT get free heals.... or Buff Strips. The most squishy class should logicly be the strongest in terms of dps.
I agree for all Weapons and the Boff abilities where it makes sense. I also think they should get a boost to some E-War Boff abilities, in particular those relating to Sensors. I don't agree that Tacs would somehow generate a more powerfull Gravity Well or even more damaging Warp Plasma Ejection.
Just like I don't think Scis should get damage boosting Captain skills. Again, imo their abilities should focus on debuff or CC. Powerful AoE CCs should have either very long cooldowns or drawbacks like friendly fire.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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C&H Fed banter
This is especially true in PvE!!!!! It's ALL about the damage.
That's because STO has the worst PvE of any game I've played. If NPCs actually started doing damage and focus firing, healing would become important. If they used even half as many buffs as players do, then debuffs would be effective. The classes don't need to change (well, maybe eng needs a slight buff), it's fail PvE that needs to change.
I still think that tactical captain powers shouldnt boost non-weapons damage numbers.
Then you'd never want to put a tactical in a science vessel because it doesn't make sense wasting tactical buffs on the lowest DPS ship in the game.
As it is, I'm always going to take a sci/sci over a tac/sci in a premade. Having captain/ship combinations that are not viable is bad design. Every combination should be viable if you are able to build it right.
Then you'd never want to put a tactical in a science vessel because it doesn't make sense wasting tactical buffs on the lowest DPS ship in the game.
I think that's exactly what the rollers want. Tac and Sci ship to never go together. Which consequently screws the MVAM over. (as if it didn't get screwed enough by the state of most sci abilities.)
Sure they can have the same control powers. At the horrendous expense of their damage output. A sci is not affected nearly as much by a damage drop off as a tac is. (Particularly Tac Sci) you put Graviton consoles on for TBR (which is the only way presently to get a repel worth mentioning out of it against Good Players), and the tac's contribution to the team just became Nil, while he repels people around.
Ok just being nit picky... but if a tac is putting graviton units on he is doing it wrong...
Partical Generators... ZERO points in grav... and if you can handle the extra squish a deflector with no graviton (ie take of the borg)... Aux to bat to drop aux power to between zero and 5... and then you TBR with alpha up. lol
If your pushing them at all as a tac... you are doing it wrong.
Ok just being nit picky... but if a tac is putting graviton units on he is doing it wrong...
Partical Generators... ZERO points in grav... and if you can handle the extra squish a deflector with no graviton (ie take of the borg)... Aux to bat to drop aux power to between zero and 5... and then you TBR with alpha up. lol
If your pushing them at all as a tac... you are doing it wrong.
That was part of what I was pointing out. Although there are times when you need to push. Mind you, you should NEVER push as a tac to such an extent that you have graviton consoles. Max you should run is ranks in the skill. As a sci though? Graviton to the max baby. With my sci, sci and TBR2 I can on average kick people 15km away from their allies. If a friendly Escort and I can't get it done at that distance away when I have a Nuke and VM at my disposal and he has Buffs, then We're DoinitWrong.
Ok just being nit picky... but if a tac is putting graviton units on he is doing it wrong...
Partical Generators... ZERO points in grav... and if you can handle the extra squish a deflector with no graviton (ie take of the borg)... Aux to bat to drop aux power to between zero and 5... and then you TBR with alpha up. lol
If your pushing them at all as a tac... you are doing it wrong.
exactly. wile a tac sci is doing the only thing it can do well in a sci ship, its not doing the important debuffing and striping only a sci/sci can do well. what actually gets kills.
to say a tac uses a sci ship better then a sci can is laughable. its the sci captain who focuses not on damage that actually gets kills, and its the captain abilities that make a large part of that possible. the tac captain powers are only good for dealing damage, if you use a tac in a way that is the opposite of dealing damage, using graviton instead of particle, its the same thing as having a captain with no captain abilities.
When you make an actual argument worth debating that isn't coming straight out of an RPers TRIBBLE or Butt Hurt Sci players TRIBBLE let me know champ. Till then you get the standard "You're a ****ing moron pveer" rant.
I'll make this simple for you chump. You have No Math proving that it's overpowered, because it isn't. All you have is an argument of "feel" which is a horrendous argument when it comes to Balance Discussions. Now if Tac sci were pumping more than an Escort or KDF Cruiser? You'd have an argument. But it doesn't.
When you have an argument that consists of more than "It breaks my immersion!" I'll actually debate with you. Till then, go Rp at drozana and stay off the forums.
If I agreed in the "damage wizard" role even having a place in this game, then I'd need #s to change it for balance reasons. But, I'm not suggesting it be changed for balance reasons nor have I ever done so. I'm saying it has no place in a Sci-Fi Space game. If you think this nerfs them in some manner boost them in another area. I've even suggested an area that would make sense, eg the Sensor based abilities.
It's not about immersion or being an RPer (which I'm not) it's about the basic gameplay design and role assignments and not wanting a fantasy game w/spaceship skins, but instead gameplay design founded in at least in some scientific theory. Off this subject I'd much rather have a high resistance based defense w/slight repairs to the yo-yo repairs, espcially hull repairs while in combat. As it is now it's a joke how quickly a ship can go from near zero hull to full hp in a blink of an eye.
The fact is you're again putting thoughts in peoples heads instead of considering what they write. You rant and rave non sensically in an attempt to make a point and ignore when you're called out it. When all else fails it's nothing but insults.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
That's because STO has the worst PvE of any game I've played.
It's what we have, and i seriously doubt it's gonna change. Having one cookie-cutter build insanely OP compared to all other builds (for PvE that is) doesn't make it better. Neither does having one captain class superior to the others for the task at hand.
And yes, PvE is silly easy, but with the timer running, it's about who can do it fastest, and then it's no contest at all...
If I agreed in the "damage wizard" role even having a place in this game, then I'd need #s to change it for balance reasons. But, I'm not suggesting it be changed for balance reasons nor have I ever done so. I'm saying it has no place in a Sci-Fi Space game. If you think this nerfs them in some manner boost them in another area. I've even suggested an area that would make sense, eg the Sensor based abilities.
It's not about immersion or being an RPer (which I'm not) it's about the basic gameplay design and role assignments and not wanting a fantasy game w/spaceship skins, but instead gameplay design founded in at least in some scientific theory. Off this subject I'd much rather have a high resistance based defense w/slight repairs to the yo-yo repairs, espcially hull repairs while in combat. As it is now it's a joke how quickly a ship can go from near zero hull to full hp in a blink of an eye.
The fact is you're again putting thoughts in peoples heads instead of considering what they write. You rant and rave non sensically in an attempt to make a point and ignore when you're called out it. When all else fails it's nothing but insults.
Yes, you said Sensor abilities, which help their best Asset exactly None. Infact the argument can be made that Sci would make more sense in that department. You say it has no place, in a sci fi game, neither does most of the TRIBBLE that goes on in a given trek episode with Anamoly this that TRIBBLE physics, and is simply Magic with a fancy pants name assigned to it. You're in the wrong game, and in the wrong IP if you want "realism" based on any credible scientific theory. Maybe Babylon 5, or BSG would be more to your liking. I mean seriously have you ever watched Trek before? I just finished watching an episode of DS9 this morning about some gambling device that some how rewrote all the laws of probability on the station through Neutrinos. That is Magic. Hell that's one of the more tame examples I can come up with. That's not Science. Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
Yes you want boffless pvp. Which is Stupid, boring and Failsauce. That's why EVE is a niche game with less than a million players to it's credit.
You are again using the stupid "immersion" argument, and frankly again that has 0 place in a balance discussion. Which is what this is. We're talking about #s and hard math end of things here and you are coming in, wanting to change the window dressing.
The only Real Reason to change something like this, in a game that has pvp is #s and Balance Concerns. not Immersion. Given just how "fantastic" the devs have proven at doing anything, would you really trust them to make the game even half as fun or balanced as it is now, if they did a total Remove Tac from Sci, and remove spike healing and cross healing from the game?
I sure don't. Oh sure they might be able to give you your Bridge Commander game.. but frankly that would Suck Balls for the rest of us that enjoy not being able to sleep at the controls.
Your posts have no place on the pvp forum because it doesn't concern Balance, or existing gameplay. You're theorcrafting which is much more suited to the not so math inclined sections of this forum like STO Genital.
Also I find it utterly hilarious how you refuse to accept that what a Sci captain does is as much magic as a tac does. See above about the lady and protesting.
Yes, you said Sensor abilities, which help their best Asset exactly None. Infact the argument can be made that Sci would make more sense in that department. You say it has no place, in a sci fi game, neither does most of the TRIBBLE that goes on in a given trek episode with Anamoly this that TRIBBLE physics, and is simply Magic with a fancy pants name assigned to it. You're in the wrong game, and in the wrong IP if you want "realism" based on any credible scientific theory. Maybe Babylon 5, or BSG would be more to your liking. I mean seriously have you ever watched Trek before? I just finished watching an episode of DS9 this morning about some gambling device that some how rewrote all the laws of probability on the station through Neutrinos. That is Magic. Hell that's one of the more tame examples I can come up with. That's not Science. Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
Yes you want boffless pvp. Which is Stupid, boring and Failsauce. That's why EVE is a niche game with less than a million players to it's credit.
You are again using the stupid "immersion" argument, and frankly again that has 0 place in a balance discussion. Which is what this is. We're talking about #s and hard math end of things here and you are coming in, wanting to change the window dressing.
The only Real Reason to change something like this, in a game that has pvp is #s and Balance Concerns. not Immersion. Given just how "fantastic" the devs have proven at doing anything, would you really trust them to make the game even half as fun or balanced as it is now, if they did a total Remove Tac from Sci, and remove spike healing and cross healing from the game?
I sure don't. Oh sure they might be able to give you your Bridge Commander game.. but frankly that would Suck Balls for the rest of us that enjoy not being able to sleep at the controls.
Your posts have no place on the pvp forum because it doesn't concern Balance, or existing gameplay. You're theorcrafting which is much more suited to the not so math inclined sections of this forum like STO Genital.
Also I find it utterly hilarious how you refuse to accept that what a Sci captain does is as much magic as a tac does. See above about the lady and protesting.
I never said no Boffs way to make up more stuff. Btw 3 links I found in all of a minute of googling like I suggested you do earlerier:
For a fiction show it had plenty of forsite and was decent in theory. Give up the Star Trek was a fantasy show line already. For a IP that's been around for decades and outlived it's original creator it's predicted many techs, despite poetic license and incongruancies of the writers.
I never said no repairs nor no cross repairs, that's more b.s. on your part.
EvE is niche b/c it's a single shard hardcore PvP game and not just combat PvP.
So again you just declare your opinion as fact and your opinion ie "fact" is wrong.
1st a game structure needs to be in place before balance takes place. I'm saying the structure is wrong. The thread is about Sci abilities and in that context I've suggested ways to change the structure as well as adjust abilities. You're arguing apples and oranges again to say only balance based on current structure matters and thereby attempting to create a forced choice to ignore suggestions to change structural mechanics.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Please, the only thing ST has in relation to science is coincidence of sharing same names with stuff from time to time.
Again, see episode reference.
If you think that science works at all like it does in Trek you're really out of touch with reality.
Also, lol on the stealth bit.
Seriously? MES isn't even CLOSE to what stealth technology is. MES is at most similar to "silent running" in a submarine. Only this is power signatures vs sound. Ie shut off every non essential system to minimize your energy profile. That isn't even close to Stealth Tech.
Now I know you're just trying to get attention.
The only thing you've proven is how much of a die hard trekkie you are by linking tenous at best similarities to reality that Trek has. Treks solution to Everything is Technobabble ie Magic. Not Science.
You also still have fail Miserably at providing a reason for Balance concerns (the only thing that matters) as to why tacs shouldn't be able to buff sci powers, and sci should be allowed to use their abilities in an Escort.
Seriously, how on earth is being able to Generate "black holes" At will not effing magic? You want to tell me that every sci ship, has the ability to throw out enough matter to equal a collapsing star's mass? Or even emulate the effect of a planetoid? At will? That's Reality and Physics Defying in of itself. That's Magic, pure and simple.
Otherwise I can think of much better uses for the sheer amount of energy required, and matter creation involved even for a grav well as "small" as the one in STO. Like oh I don't know making your ship literally immune to all harm, and just super charging your weapons to blow them to pieces in one shot, simultaneously.
You can scream "THAT IS SCIENCE" all you want, but that doesn't make it true. Face it champ, you like sci fantasy. You don't like science fiction.
Even Mass Effect, is harder science than Trek is. I'd even go so far as to say at best Trek is as much Science oriented as Warhammer 40k on a good day. Seriously, when's the last time you watched Trek? I mean anything post TOS. (and even then the "science" is junk, and goofy at best)
Do you have a single Legitimate Balance Concern for Tac buffing sci abilities? Seriously, do you have one iota issue. Or is it strictly a "zomg my immersion" rant? If you have any balance concerns now's the time to post them, and Prove them with Math. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time with an rp trollop rant.
Please, the only thing ST has in relation to science is coincidence of sharing same names with stuff from time to time.
Again, see episode reference.
If you think that science works at all like it does in Trek you're really out of touch with reality.
Also, lol on the stealth bit.
Seriously? MES isn't even CLOSE to what stealth technology is. MES is at most similar to "silent running" in a submarine. Only this is power signatures vs sound. Ie shut off every non essential system to minimize your energy profile. That isn't even close to Stealth Tech.
Now I know you're just trying to get attention.
The only thing you've proven is how much of a die hard trekkie you are by linking tenous at best similarities to reality that Trek has. Treks solution to Everything is Technobabble ie Magic. Not Science.
You also still have fail Miserably at providing a reason for Balance concerns (the only thing that matters) as to why tacs shouldn't be able to buff sci powers, and sci should be allowed to use their abilities in an Escort.
Seriously, how on earth is being able to Generate "black holes" At will not effing magic? You want to tell me that every sci ship, has the ability to throw out enough matter to equal a collapsing star's mass? Or even emulate the effect of a planetoid? At will? That's Reality and Physics Defying in of itself. That's Magic, pure and simple.
Otherwise I can think of much better uses for the sheer amount of energy required, and matter creation involved even for a grav well as "small" as the one in STO. Like oh I don't know making your ship literally immune to all harm, and just super charging your weapons to blow them to pieces in one shot, simultaneously.
You can scream "THAT IS SCIENCE" all you want, but that doesn't make it true. Face it champ, you like sci fantasy. You don't like science fiction.
Even Mass Effect, is harder science than Trek is. I'd even go so far as to say at best Trek is as much Science oriented as Warhammer 40k on a good day. Seriously, when's the last time you watched Trek? I mean anything post TOS. (and even then the "science" is junk, and goofy at best)
Do you have a single Legitimate Balance Concern for Tac buffing sci abilities? Seriously, do you have one iota issue. Or is it strictly a "zomg my immersion" rant? If you have any balance concerns now's the time to post them, and Prove them with Math. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time with an rp trollop rant.
Read the wiki on stealth fighters. Reduction in heat signature is included w/all the other detection methods. So, yeah they're masking the energy output of the engines.
The "magic" power source is the warp core of the warp engines. It's mentioned in the show numerous times how powerful it is and is the reason the protagonist ship needs to get X lightyears away before a warp core explodes. Accepting certain unknown future techs doesn't negate the Science foundation of Science Fiction.
Don't confuse Poetic License and incongruancies of an IP which has been around for decades and has had many hands on it w/a fantasy genre. There are also limits of TV production:
"Asimov wrote a critical essay on Star Trek's scientific accuracy for TV Guide magazine. Roddenberry retorted respectfully with a personal letter explaining the limitations of accuracy when writing a weekly series. Asimov corrected himself with a follow-up essay to TV Guide claiming despite its inaccuracies, that Star Trek was a fresh and intellectually challenging science fiction television show."
So, you don't have to take my word for it. You can take the word of one of the most prolific Sci-Fi writers of the 20th Century.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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C&H Fed banter
Yeah, ok, just gonna throw this into this "discussion."
I've got an Astrophysics degree, inspired by my love of Star Trek... only to learn that most of the 'science' in Star Trek is so far off the wall, it's not even funny.
Yeah, ok, just gonna throw this into this "discussion."
I've got an Astrophysics degree, inspired by my love of Star Trek... only to learn that most of the 'science' in Star Trek is so far off the wall, it's not even funny.
i seen recently we have developed a cloaking device, a theoritcal tractor beam and warp drive may be scientifically possible.
Yeah, ok, just gonna throw this into this "discussion."
I've got an Astrophysics degree, inspired by my love of Star Trek... only to learn that most of the 'science' in Star Trek is so far off the wall, it's not even funny.
wouldn't a ship that wanted to make a FTL journey need a fuel tank about the size of jupiter? and the mass of the energy needed to do it would contently count against its ability to accelerate, making it mathematically impossible to reach those speeds without bypassing the laws of physics? which i guess is how they did it in star trek.
wouldn't a ship that wanted to make a FTL journey need a fuel tank about the size of jupiter? and the mass of the energy needed to do it would contently count against its ability to accelerate, making it mathematically impossible to reach those speeds without bypassing the laws of physics? which i guess is how they did it in star trek.
if i understood warp drive in star trek right, it made you in a bubble that made you outside of space so you weighed a fraction of what you really did or something...
i personally like the event horizons methed of travel. "fold the space to you so you dont go anywhere" engine.
agree with the buffs on sci powers that need it( most if not all) but not a nerf on tac team. that would make pvp impossible in a bop for those of us that dont use keybinds at all.
Yeah, ok, just gonna throw this into this "discussion."
I've got an Astrophysics degree, inspired by my love of Star Trek... only to learn that most of the 'science' in Star Trek is so far off the wall, it's not even funny.
if i understood warp drive in star trek right, it made you in a bubble that made you outside of space so you weighed a fraction of what you really did or something...
i personally like the event horizons methed of travel. "fold the space to you so you dont go anywhere" engine.
Which again requires such a massive amount of energy, that you couldn't possibly do it in all honesty.
Which again requires such a massive amount of energy, that you couldn't possibly do it in all honesty.
FTL is Magic. Not Science.
Everything that we dont understand is "magic" until we figure it out. Take anything and at some point it was "magic"
Read that link I posted. It's insightful. I don't think well have warp drive in any of our lifetimes but we will have it or somthing similar to it in the future.
Everything that we dont understand is "magic" until we figure it out. Take anything and at some point it was "magic"
Read that link I posted. It's insightful. I don't think well have warp drive in any of our lifetimes but we will have it or somthing similar to it in the future.
I posted a similar link (among the many I listed) which referenced:
The basic problem is he wants to play a fantasy game and is brushing all the links and even quote from a famous Sci-Fi author rather then admit the game is based on a Sci-Fi IP.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
No the basic problem is you're suffering under the delusion that ST has anything to do with science. Asking another Sci Fi author if Trek is Realistic, is like asking a drunkard what sobriety is like.
Go ask our astrophysics major in this thread how much more ST is magic than science.
We'll never have warp drive, not one that functions for people transport at any rate, due to the energy required to make it work. While it's not as Infinite as hitting the speed of light, it's up there. IIRC the figures bandied about last I had read about it were something like " the equivalent energy of a Big Bang".
Yeah. That's feasible alright. :rolleyes:
It's okay for At Will Singularity generation, it's okay for Warp Drive.
But zomg noooo tac buffing sci abilities breaks your immersion. Yeah.. I think it's less that and more butt hurt cause you went and did something stupid against a tac buffed FBP like use an Overload while it was up and it Gibbed you.
Tell you what, lets eliminate each and every non credible sci ability from the game. There goes, GW, Tykens, Tractor beams, Tractor Repulsion, Charged Particle Burst, Tachyon Beam, any Sci Healing abilities what so ever. Only sci abilities that should be in the game for "realistic science!"?
VM, Scramble Sensors, and Jam Sensors. Yeah, that game looks real fun right there.
Oh and to address your "you need to get light years away form warpcore explosions!" Funny they didn't have to do that in the Dominion war now did they. They were poppin ships like pez candy right near each other that had live cores ALL THE TIME. Seems to me their power generation capabilities, are solely base don plot convenience rather than hard and fast rules to me... mmm lets see I guess that would mean more Magic than Sci Fi. After all their potency in explosions, seems to vary along the lines of A Wizard Did It.
No the basic problem is you're suffering under the delusion that ST has anything to do with science. Asking another Sci Fi author if Trek is Realistic, is like asking a drunkard what sobriety is like.
Go ask our astrophysics major in this thread how much more ST is magic than science.
We'll never have warp drive, not one that functions for people transport at any rate, due to the energy required to make it work. While it's not as Infinite as hitting the speed of light, it's up there. IIRC the figures bandied about last I had read about it were something like " the equivalent energy of a Big Bang".
Yeah. That's feasible alright. :rolleyes:
It's okay for At Will Singularity generation, it's okay for Warp Drive.
But zomg noooo tac buffing sci abilities breaks your immersion. Yeah.. I think it's less that and more butt hurt cause you went and did something stupid against a tac buffed FBP like use an Overload while it was up and it Gibbed you.
Tell you what, lets eliminate each and every non credible sci ability from the game. There goes, GW, Tykens, Tractor beams, Tractor Repulsion, Charged Particle Burst, Tachyon Beam, any Sci Healing abilities what so ever. Only sci abilities that should be in the game for "realistic science!"?
VM, Scramble Sensors, and Jam Sensors. Yeah, that game looks real fun right there.
Oh and to address your "you need to get light years away form warpcore explosions!" Funny they didn't have to do that in the Dominion war now did they. They were poppin ships like pez candy right near each other that had live cores ALL THE TIME. Seems to me their power generation capabilities, are solely base don plot convenience rather than hard and fast rules to me... mmm lets see I guess that would mean more Magic than Sci Fi. After all their potency in explosions, seems to vary along the lines of A Wizard Did It.
where theres a will theres a way. we'll eventually find some way to bend some law to get the job done. its human nature to challenge these things.
as for the dominion war, i dont recall any of the ships being blown to bits suffering a "warp core explosion" they all seemed to be destroyed from weapons fire which leads me to think that not every kill=warp core death. they need to label this ingame so as to not be misleading and maybe actually make abandon ship cause a warp core breech?
if i understood warp drive in star trek right, it made you in a bubble that made you outside of space so you weighed a fraction of what you really did or something...
i personally like the event horizons methed of travel. "fold the space to you so you dont go anywhere" engine.
Alcubierre Drive
Something we're now coming to realize may be more feasible than previously thought.
not to mention all the little side tek- padds (ipad anyone?). communicators (bluetooth/cell phones) real working tricorders etc etc.
granted that most of the "science" terms and stuff they use is just filler, but i do like to think we'll get there someday.
Technology, yes. There's no doubt that the iPad/communicator/tricorder have helped shaped modern technology.
I'm talking more about the actual 'science' behind stuff. 'ZOMG REVERSE THE POLARITY OF THE MAGNETON FIELD BY INITIATING A THETA RADIATION BURST, AND THEN USE AN INVERSE TACHYON PULSE TO MODULATE THE PHOTON NUTATION!'
Comments
In the spirit of fairness that seems to be prevalent today, the thread starter did not start the thread about this either!
Just a listing on what could be done about individual sci boff abilities...that happened to dive into the underlying causes.
When you make an actual argument worth debating that isn't coming straight out of an RPers TRIBBLE or Butt Hurt Sci players TRIBBLE let me know champ. Till then you get the standard "You're a ****ing moron pveer" rant.
I'll make this simple for you chump. You have No Math proving that it's overpowered, because it isn't. All you have is an argument of "feel" which is a horrendous argument when it comes to Balance Discussions. Now if Tac sci were pumping more than an Escort or KDF Cruiser? You'd have an argument. But it doesn't.
When you have an argument that consists of more than "It breaks my immersion!" I'll actually debate with you. Till then, go Rp at drozana and stay off the forums.
I can't belive you get a way with saying that word so often... I did it once, and they whacked me with the rulebook... :rolleyes:
Maybe you should play Mai Cake more till you are on Damians, MT, Aytanhi or even my level. And then go switch him over to a Recon or Fleet Nova, then come back and whine about how OP tac sci is with a straight face.
Sure they can have the same control powers. At the horrendous expense of their damage output. A sci is not affected nearly as much by a damage drop off as a tac is. (Particularly Tac Sci) you put Graviton consoles on for TBR (which is the only way presently to get a repel worth mentioning out of it against Good Players), and the tac's contribution to the team just became Nil, while he repels people around. You put it on a sci on the other hand, and BAM there goes his defenses, after you've kicked the opponent out of heal ranges.
So in other words the Repel Use for TBR ( a power you admit you hate using), has more benefit and use to a Sci Captain than a tac. Why it's almost like there's a trade off being made between having to do dps or not. "But tac can still buff it and do more damage!" Yeah... have you seen TBRs output without At Least One Particle generator? It's Terribad. +50 percent +30 percent +25 percent of Terribad is still Bad. A tac with gravitons is doing Jack And TRIBBLE to really help is team because he's wasting his best Asset.
VM? Sure it's amazing. It's a great power. But frankly it's better suited to a sci for two fold reasons. 1: It doesn't do DPS. Literally it deals 0. Tac Buffs mean nothing for it. 2: It forces a choice to be made on average between a Sci Team or Eng Team and you carry Sub Nuke as a sci capt.
Sure a tac can use it, but again it comes at the expense of dealing damage. The literal only facet of the class.
Now what else do sci captains do better than tacs. Oh gee I don't know... they have these two abilities.... one is called Sci Fleet, perhaps you have heard of it? Did you know, when you use it the whole team gets the benefit and it's benefit is a massively op shield resist? You did? Oh and you were ignoring it? How Quaint. Oh and it gets an ability called Scattering field, which omg makes stuff harder to kill too?
mmmm maybe this means Sci can more readily give up heals than a tac can? OMG! It's like a trade off is being made! So... lets see, lower damage powers = better use on the sci than the tac. And hot damn, they make far far better healers than do tacs since they can if necessary hold sci fleet back incase they get into trouble while passing heals around.
Oh and since they have no damage boosters, they can even more readily use ships that have less tac boff slots and get more benefit for doing so. (mm Helloooo Mr Intrepid... what's that? You carry a skill called Ablative armor? It makes you all but immune to damage since PSW got nut kicked so hard no one uses it anymore? mmm yay that's more heals for my team mates!) They both frankly get equal benefit out of Warp Plasma as well. Particularly mark 1. Which coincidentally enough is mountable on several sci ships now fedside. Oh and Sci get better use out of Chron Torps/mines, and even plas torps thanks to sensor scan in the case of the latter. Let's also not forget they get better miles out of Polarized Tet beams which are the only semi viable Strip in the game.
Sci heal better, and get more benefit per dollar, for using the Repel aspects of TBR, the disable of VM, and now frankly PSW. (since it's damage Sucks). Oh, and they can heal allies alot more safely than can a tac. Oh, they also get far more mileage out of Tykens Rift 3 and doff, since Tykens damage is Craptastic even with a 20 percent or less go down fighting boosting it. Why it's almost like people are upset about a score board and forgetting completely how the tac gets those monster numbers. Because his sci buddy has completely locked down the other team, or at least one target, ripped his defenses down. and the tac times his strike to coincide with that moment.
Kai, maybe you should play with the Critz for a while instead of your dead fleet, so you can relearn the value of Sci/Sci.
I can't believe people are trying to use RP Arguments in Balance Discussions either. Or PVE which is nothing but Target Dummies for that matter.
I agree for all Weapons and the Boff abilities where it makes sense. I also think they should get a boost to some E-War Boff abilities, in particular those relating to Sensors. I don't agree that Tacs would somehow generate a more powerfull Gravity Well or even more damaging Warp Plasma Ejection.
Just like I don't think Scis should get damage boosting Captain skills. Again, imo their abilities should focus on debuff or CC. Powerful AoE CCs should have either very long cooldowns or drawbacks like friendly fire.
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That's because STO has the worst PvE of any game I've played. If NPCs actually started doing damage and focus firing, healing would become important. If they used even half as many buffs as players do, then debuffs would be effective. The classes don't need to change (well, maybe eng needs a slight buff), it's fail PvE that needs to change.
Then you'd never want to put a tactical in a science vessel because it doesn't make sense wasting tactical buffs on the lowest DPS ship in the game.
As it is, I'm always going to take a sci/sci over a tac/sci in a premade. Having captain/ship combinations that are not viable is bad design. Every combination should be viable if you are able to build it right.
I think that's exactly what the rollers want. Tac and Sci ship to never go together. Which consequently screws the MVAM over. (as if it didn't get screwed enough by the state of most sci abilities.)
Ok just being nit picky... but if a tac is putting graviton units on he is doing it wrong...
Partical Generators... ZERO points in grav... and if you can handle the extra squish a deflector with no graviton (ie take of the borg)... Aux to bat to drop aux power to between zero and 5... and then you TBR with alpha up. lol
If your pushing them at all as a tac... you are doing it wrong.
That was part of what I was pointing out. Although there are times when you need to push. Mind you, you should NEVER push as a tac to such an extent that you have graviton consoles. Max you should run is ranks in the skill. As a sci though? Graviton to the max baby. With my sci, sci and TBR2 I can on average kick people 15km away from their allies. If a friendly Escort and I can't get it done at that distance away when I have a Nuke and VM at my disposal and he has Buffs, then We're DoinitWrong.
exactly. wile a tac sci is doing the only thing it can do well in a sci ship, its not doing the important debuffing and striping only a sci/sci can do well. what actually gets kills.
to say a tac uses a sci ship better then a sci can is laughable. its the sci captain who focuses not on damage that actually gets kills, and its the captain abilities that make a large part of that possible. the tac captain powers are only good for dealing damage, if you use a tac in a way that is the opposite of dealing damage, using graviton instead of particle, its the same thing as having a captain with no captain abilities.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
If I agreed in the "damage wizard" role even having a place in this game, then I'd need #s to change it for balance reasons. But, I'm not suggesting it be changed for balance reasons nor have I ever done so. I'm saying it has no place in a Sci-Fi Space game. If you think this nerfs them in some manner boost them in another area. I've even suggested an area that would make sense, eg the Sensor based abilities.
It's not about immersion or being an RPer (which I'm not) it's about the basic gameplay design and role assignments and not wanting a fantasy game w/spaceship skins, but instead gameplay design founded in at least in some scientific theory. Off this subject I'd much rather have a high resistance based defense w/slight repairs to the yo-yo repairs, espcially hull repairs while in combat. As it is now it's a joke how quickly a ship can go from near zero hull to full hp in a blink of an eye.
The fact is you're again putting thoughts in peoples heads instead of considering what they write. You rant and rave non sensically in an attempt to make a point and ignore when you're called out it. When all else fails it's nothing but insults.
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It's what we have, and i seriously doubt it's gonna change. Having one cookie-cutter build insanely OP compared to all other builds (for PvE that is) doesn't make it better.
And yes, PvE is silly easy, but with the timer running, it's about who can do it fastest, and then it's no contest at all...
Yes, you said Sensor abilities, which help their best Asset exactly None. Infact the argument can be made that Sci would make more sense in that department. You say it has no place, in a sci fi game, neither does most of the TRIBBLE that goes on in a given trek episode with Anamoly this that TRIBBLE physics, and is simply Magic with a fancy pants name assigned to it. You're in the wrong game, and in the wrong IP if you want "realism" based on any credible scientific theory. Maybe Babylon 5, or BSG would be more to your liking. I mean seriously have you ever watched Trek before? I just finished watching an episode of DS9 this morning about some gambling device that some how rewrote all the laws of probability on the station through Neutrinos. That is Magic. Hell that's one of the more tame examples I can come up with. That's not Science. Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
Yes you want boffless pvp. Which is Stupid, boring and Failsauce. That's why EVE is a niche game with less than a million players to it's credit.
You are again using the stupid "immersion" argument, and frankly again that has 0 place in a balance discussion. Which is what this is. We're talking about #s and hard math end of things here and you are coming in, wanting to change the window dressing.
The only Real Reason to change something like this, in a game that has pvp is #s and Balance Concerns. not Immersion. Given just how "fantastic" the devs have proven at doing anything, would you really trust them to make the game even half as fun or balanced as it is now, if they did a total Remove Tac from Sci, and remove spike healing and cross healing from the game?
I sure don't. Oh sure they might be able to give you your Bridge Commander game.. but frankly that would Suck Balls for the rest of us that enjoy not being able to sleep at the controls.
Your posts have no place on the pvp forum because it doesn't concern Balance, or existing gameplay. You're theorcrafting which is much more suited to the not so math inclined sections of this forum like STO Genital.
Also I find it utterly hilarious how you refuse to accept that what a Sci captain does is as much magic as a tac does. See above about the lady and protesting.
I never said no Boffs way to make up more stuff. Btw 3 links I found in all of a minute of googling like I suggested you do earlerier:
http://venturebeat.com/2012/09/17/nasa-developing-warp-drive/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/13/star-trek-tricorder-science-fiction-device-spock_n_1424740.html
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/21418
For a fiction show it had plenty of forsite and was decent in theory. Give up the Star Trek was a fantasy show line already. For a IP that's been around for decades and outlived it's original creator it's predicted many techs, despite poetic license and incongruancies of the writers.
I never said no repairs nor no cross repairs, that's more b.s. on your part.
EvE is niche b/c it's a single shard hardcore PvP game and not just combat PvP.
Science in this game isn't "magic":
Gravity Wells are based on blackholes. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17980-first-black-hole-for-light-created-on-earth.html
There's sensor scrambling tech today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon <- theory behind Tachyon particles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla <- guy who worked on particle weapons b4 Star Trek, CPB has it's roots.
http://www.alan-shapiro.com/how-the-transporter-really-works/ <- Transport Theory. Sleath Fighters exist and are similar to the MES ability.
I've already listed link(s) w/Tractor Beams.
So again you just declare your opinion as fact and your opinion ie "fact" is wrong.
1st a game structure needs to be in place before balance takes place. I'm saying the structure is wrong. The thread is about Sci abilities and in that context I've suggested ways to change the structure as well as adjust abilities. You're arguing apples and oranges again to say only balance based on current structure matters and thereby attempting to create a forced choice to ignore suggestions to change structural mechanics.
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C&H Fed banter
Please, the only thing ST has in relation to science is coincidence of sharing same names with stuff from time to time.
Again, see episode reference.
If you think that science works at all like it does in Trek you're really out of touch with reality.
Also, lol on the stealth bit.
Seriously? MES isn't even CLOSE to what stealth technology is. MES is at most similar to "silent running" in a submarine. Only this is power signatures vs sound. Ie shut off every non essential system to minimize your energy profile. That isn't even close to Stealth Tech.
Now I know you're just trying to get attention.
The only thing you've proven is how much of a die hard trekkie you are by linking tenous at best similarities to reality that Trek has. Treks solution to Everything is Technobabble ie Magic. Not Science.
You also still have fail Miserably at providing a reason for Balance concerns (the only thing that matters) as to why tacs shouldn't be able to buff sci powers, and sci should be allowed to use their abilities in an Escort.
Seriously, how on earth is being able to Generate "black holes" At will not effing magic? You want to tell me that every sci ship, has the ability to throw out enough matter to equal a collapsing star's mass? Or even emulate the effect of a planetoid? At will? That's Reality and Physics Defying in of itself. That's Magic, pure and simple.
Otherwise I can think of much better uses for the sheer amount of energy required, and matter creation involved even for a grav well as "small" as the one in STO. Like oh I don't know making your ship literally immune to all harm, and just super charging your weapons to blow them to pieces in one shot, simultaneously.
You can scream "THAT IS SCIENCE" all you want, but that doesn't make it true. Face it champ, you like sci fantasy. You don't like science fiction.
Even Mass Effect, is harder science than Trek is. I'd even go so far as to say at best Trek is as much Science oriented as Warhammer 40k on a good day. Seriously, when's the last time you watched Trek? I mean anything post TOS. (and even then the "science" is junk, and goofy at best)
Do you have a single Legitimate Balance Concern for Tac buffing sci abilities? Seriously, do you have one iota issue. Or is it strictly a "zomg my immersion" rant? If you have any balance concerns now's the time to post them, and Prove them with Math. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time with an rp trollop rant.
Read the wiki on stealth fighters. Reduction in heat signature is included w/all the other detection methods. So, yeah they're masking the energy output of the engines.
The "magic" power source is the warp core of the warp engines. It's mentioned in the show numerous times how powerful it is and is the reason the protagonist ship needs to get X lightyears away before a warp core explodes. Accepting certain unknown future techs doesn't negate the Science foundation of Science Fiction.
Don't confuse Poetic License and incongruancies of an IP which has been around for decades and has had many hands on it w/a fantasy genre. There are also limits of TV production:
"Asimov wrote a critical essay on Star Trek's scientific accuracy for TV Guide magazine. Roddenberry retorted respectfully with a personal letter explaining the limitations of accuracy when writing a weekly series. Asimov corrected himself with a follow-up essay to TV Guide claiming despite its inaccuracies, that Star Trek was a fresh and intellectually challenging science fiction television show."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov
So, you don't have to take my word for it. You can take the word of one of the most prolific Sci-Fi writers of the 20th Century.
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C&H Fed banter
I've got an Astrophysics degree, inspired by my love of Star Trek... only to learn that most of the 'science' in Star Trek is so far off the wall, it's not even funny.
i seen recently we have developed a cloaking device, a theoritcal tractor beam and warp drive may be scientifically possible.
the cloaking device- http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-01/real-cloaking-device
a tractor beam- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/25/real-life-tractor-beam_n_1546482.html
warp drive- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/17/warp-drive-star-trek-feasible_n_1890679.html
not to mention all the little side tek- padds (ipad anyone?). communicators (bluetooth/cell phones) real working tricorders etc etc.
granted that most of the "science" terms and stuff they use is just filler, but i do like to think we'll get there someday.
wouldn't a ship that wanted to make a FTL journey need a fuel tank about the size of jupiter? and the mass of the energy needed to do it would contently count against its ability to accelerate, making it mathematically impossible to reach those speeds without bypassing the laws of physics? which i guess is how they did it in star trek.
if i understood warp drive in star trek right, it made you in a bubble that made you outside of space so you weighed a fraction of what you really did or something...
i personally like the event horizons methed of travel. "fold the space to you so you dont go anywhere" engine.
Thank you.
Which again requires such a massive amount of energy, that you couldn't possibly do it in all honesty.
FTL is Magic. Not Science.
Everything that we dont understand is "magic" until we figure it out. Take anything and at some point it was "magic"
Read that link I posted. It's insightful. I don't think well have warp drive in any of our lifetimes but we will have it or somthing similar to it in the future.
I posted a similar link (among the many I listed) which referenced:
http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/daydreaming-beyond-the-solar-system-with-warp-field-mechanics/
The primary source article.
The basic problem is he wants to play a fantasy game and is brushing all the links and even quote from a famous Sci-Fi author rather then admit the game is based on a Sci-Fi IP.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Go ask our astrophysics major in this thread how much more ST is magic than science.
We'll never have warp drive, not one that functions for people transport at any rate, due to the energy required to make it work. While it's not as Infinite as hitting the speed of light, it's up there. IIRC the figures bandied about last I had read about it were something like " the equivalent energy of a Big Bang".
Yeah. That's feasible alright. :rolleyes:
It's okay for At Will Singularity generation, it's okay for Warp Drive.
But zomg noooo tac buffing sci abilities breaks your immersion. Yeah.. I think it's less that and more butt hurt cause you went and did something stupid against a tac buffed FBP like use an Overload while it was up and it Gibbed you.
Tell you what, lets eliminate each and every non credible sci ability from the game. There goes, GW, Tykens, Tractor beams, Tractor Repulsion, Charged Particle Burst, Tachyon Beam, any Sci Healing abilities what so ever. Only sci abilities that should be in the game for "realistic science!"?
VM, Scramble Sensors, and Jam Sensors. Yeah, that game looks real fun right there.
Oh and to address your "you need to get light years away form warpcore explosions!" Funny they didn't have to do that in the Dominion war now did they. They were poppin ships like pez candy right near each other that had live cores ALL THE TIME. Seems to me their power generation capabilities, are solely base don plot convenience rather than hard and fast rules to me... mmm lets see I guess that would mean more Magic than Sci Fi. After all their potency in explosions, seems to vary along the lines of A Wizard Did It.
where theres a will theres a way. we'll eventually find some way to bend some law to get the job done. its human nature to challenge these things.
as for the dominion war, i dont recall any of the ships being blown to bits suffering a "warp core explosion" they all seemed to be destroyed from weapons fire which leads me to think that not every kill=warp core death. they need to label this ingame so as to not be misleading and maybe actually make abandon ship cause a warp core breech?
Alcubierre Drive
Something we're now coming to realize may be more feasible than previously thought.
Technology, yes. There's no doubt that the iPad/communicator/tricorder have helped shaped modern technology.
I'm talking more about the actual 'science' behind stuff. 'ZOMG REVERSE THE POLARITY OF THE MAGNETON FIELD BY INITIATING A THETA RADIATION BURST, AND THEN USE AN INVERSE TACHYON PULSE TO MODULATE THE PHOTON NUTATION!'