I thought the duration of the ability was 4 seconds, with -TRIBBLE drain per pulse for up to 10 pulses.
unless they changed it recently, it sould be 10 tics of drain, one tic per second, meaning the base drain could just be x10'd to see total drain. With a maxed out build before, the right traits, the best deflector, etc., you could drain a little over 6k over 10 sec.
really, it used to be a perfectly balanced mechanism, draining good amounts of shields IF you could keep arc for 10 seconds
The shield rip was always it's primary attribute. No one that's Serious about pvp fields CPB if they have any skill because it's such a worthless ability now.
QFT
Heck, within the CPB range, anyone with some points in sensors flying a sciship (that is everyone that uses CPB) can see through the cloak anyway
This one I disagree on... honestly GW is a great skill right now as it is... people don't understand it... honestly a fully speced (graviton) GW... pulls like a mother... throw in doffs to proc secondaries and this skill is honestly pretty usable... when I have built a ship for it I have been able to keep a GW out at pretty much all times with a mix of doffs.
.
I found a full specced GW3 even with full particle gens/ graviton skilled to 9, and the appropriate MK XII purple x4 consoles is still both ****ty on damage AND repel. In fact, i could easily fly out of a GW3 without much hassle, actually i didnt feel any repel or tractoring at all, and my omega wasnt up.
finally found my post with how i would re order the skill tree
its not just the skills that are bad, its the skill tree too. for the science part of the skill tree do the following
do away with subspace decompiler as it is now, and distribute the powers it effects into graviton generators and countermeasure systems. then make decompilers a shield drain resistance, let power insulators only defend your power levels. CPB and tach beam could be made dangerous, but to defend against it to the levels you can now you have to spend points in a very expensive skill. power insulates are too cheap and have too much roled into them. the skills that buff damage, flow cap and particle gen are too cheap too, and should both be at the same level. reorder the skill tree as such
tier 2 Starship Countermeasure Systems- buffs duration for confuse and placate, subsystem disables from vm and target systems Starship Shield Systems- buff shield hit points
tire3 Starship Power Insulators- resistance from any power drains Starship Inertial Dampeners- resistance from holds, repel, stuns
tier4 Starship Flow Capacitors- buffs power and shield drain Starship Particle Generators- buffs dots, and science abilities that deal kinetic damage. is also a second buff to shield drains like tach beam and CPB
tier 5 Starship Graviton Generators- buffs knock, repel, slow, holds, and improves the duration of your Holds and Disable Starship Subspace Decompiler- resistance from shield draining other then direct damage.
That's the one, and a good start it is. I also believe, at one point, that you had incorporated a replacement for "Starship Operations" that would give a boost to all sci abilities and have a buffing skill attaced to it. My memory gets a little hazy sometimes, but I remember talking about it with you, on the old forums, at some length.
That's the one, and a good start it is. I also believe, at one point, that you had incorporated a replacement for "Starship Operations" that would give a boost to all sci abilities and have a buffing skill attaced to it. My memory gets a little hazy sometimes, but I remember talking about it with you, on the old forums, at some length.
that would have replaced decompiler, which would work here as well if the shield drain resist was included back into insulators. ether way.
if an advanced operations was included, and would be an entity in its self that is a blanket boost, it could be something put on deflectors, abilities like sci team and sci fleet, and even an attack pattern nerd to replace trash like photonic fleet.
all abilities might not need an effectiveness bump, they would get a bump from whether you speced into the expensive advanced operations skill, something only a sci ship user could really justify.
this would satisfy everyone who is so dead set on sci captains using sci skills most potently, even though its a tac captains only purpose to deal most damage were what ever hes in. it would be the pull, the push, the stun, and the disable that would be boosted as well, more importantly then extra damage.
Yeah, as I've said before. Give Sci captains the ability to boost Sci abilities and Tac in sci ships will be LULZ once more.
well that's just preposterous...
Sci being the best class to fly a sci ship makes no sense at all...
Thats a great start to a much better skill tree layout dontdrunk. Anyone listening? Anyone? Well hell, even if no one is around to hear it, chop that damn tree down anyway!
Then give tacs the ability to have DHCs on their sci ship.
Because then there is no reason what so ever to field a tac sci vs a sci sci. If sci could boost their damage output, rather than just boosting debuffs.
If you can't see why having no reason to do so is a bad thing you should go back to pve.
Then give tacs the ability to have DHCs on their sci ship.
Because then there is no reason what so ever to field a tac sci vs a sci sci. If sci could boost their damage output, rather than just boosting debuffs.
If you can't see why having no reason to do so is a bad thing you should go back to pve.
I agree Sci's shouldn't boost damage of their Boff powers while in Sci ships, but imo their boff powers should by and large be CC or debuffs by nature. The only abilities, imo, that Tac's should have a chance to boost are those based on Sensors such as TSSX (which is a Tac Boff power normally) and Scrambles/Jams. Others just feel out of place being boosted by Tacs.
I don't buy Tac's should be viable damage "wizards" in Sci ships. It's unneeded since Tac's can do other things well in a variety of ships (raiders, escorts, cruisers, even karfi carrier) and have options to dabble in Sci abilities w/Raiders, Karfi, and MVAEs. It also makes no sense that a Tac captain would be better at generating a more powerful GW ie blackhole than a Sci Captain as an example.
I'd rather see Engineer captains have a option of being more viable in Sci ships such as Weaver or Ods. for their repair, CC, debuff capabilities. It would be a nice alternative to pressure dps and repair of most cruisers. Further, most Eng scorts are TRIBBLE compared to Sci or Tac scorts, imo it'd be ok of most Tac's are TRIBBLE in sci boats and most Sci's are TRIBBLE in Cruisers.
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I agree Sci's shouldn't boost damage of their Boff powers while in Sci ships, but imo their boff powers should by and large be CC or debuffs by nature. The only abilities, imo, that Tac's should have a chance to boost are those based on Sensors such as TSSX (which is a Tac Boff power normally) and Scrambles/Jams. Others just feel out of place being boosted by Tacs.
I don't buy Tac's should be viable damage "wizards" in Sci ships. It's unneeded since Tac's can do other things well in a variety of ships (raiders, escorts, cruisers, even karfi carrier) and have options to dabble in Sci abilities w/Raiders, Karfi, and MVAEs. It also makes no sense that a Tac captain would be better at generating a more powerful GW ie blackhole than a Sci Captain as an example.
I'd rather see Engineer captains have a option of being more viable in Sci ships such as Weaver or Ods. for their repair, CC, debuff capabilities. It would be a nice alternative to pressure dps and repair of most cruisers. Further, most Eng scorts are TRIBBLE compared to Sci or Tac scorts, imo it'd be ok of most Tac's are TRIBBLE in sci boats and most Sci's are TRIBBLE in Cruisers.
Then sci shouldn't be allowed to use Sub Nuke, or Sci Fleet in Escorts. Because they are viable in Escorts, and Cruisers too for those two reasons.
Sure it does. The sci captain is better at generating the repel than the captain.
And here's why the tac captains does more damage. The tac sci captain spent all his time in academy, learning the Best Application with those given abilities to do as much damage as physically possible. The "no sense" argument should never be used for balance discussions, because frankly the "no sense" argument never holds water.
As it is right now the Sci is a better debuff captain than the Tactical captain is. The tac is the better damage captain. The only problem right now is TBR, VM (with doffs) and Tykens 3 (with Doff) are the only working debuff powers.
Then sci shouldn't be allowed to use Sub Nuke, or Sci Fleet in Escorts. Because they are viable in Escorts, and Cruisers too for those two reasons.
Sure it does. The sci captain is better at generating the repel than the captain.
And here's why the tac captains does more damage. The tac sci captain spent all his time in academy, learning the Best Application with those given abilities to do as much damage as physically possible. The "no sense" argument should never be used for balance discussions, because frankly the "no sense" argument never holds water.
As it is right now the Sci is a better debuff captain than the Tactical captain is. The tac is the better damage captain. The only problem right now is TBR, VM (with doffs) and Tykens 3 (with Doff) are the only working debuff powers.
Your comparison in your 1st paragraph is not apples to apples. A Tac captain can still use his abilities to boost weapons damage regardless of ship. This is why Sci Capatians can use their powers regardless of ship. The question is what should the Tac Captain powers effect in terms of Boff abilities. If it were me w/few exceptions Sci powers would have little to no damage so Tac's boosting them would be moot.
Sci's aren't nearly as viable in Cruisers as they are in Sci ships or Escorts b/c most Cruisers turn like TRIBBLE and most of the best Sci abilities including the Captain Sci abilitity SNB requires a 90 degree forward arc.
You can't learn to make a best application of a blackhole. At best you improve it's gravitational force which is something for Science or perhaps Engineer not Tac. Tacs would know how to improve/apply target subsystems, scramble sensors, or jam sensors better ie use them for a better tactical advantage.
TBR is a CC w/damage not a debuff unless you're counting the Engine drain doff. TB is a working debuff though.
In the end I'd rather there be more a more Science foundation in the Sci-Fi game than have the fanatsy nature applied to space ships that you would like. I'd rather see things like GW and EWP and Tyken's Rift apply to all ships regardless if friend or foe. I'd like things to be congruant in terms of what damage would be boosted by a Tac Officer. I'd also like to see non-damage skills related to sensors potentionally boosted by a Tac Officer.
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Your comparison in your 1st paragraph is not apples to apples. A Tac captain can still use his abilities to boost weapons damage regardless of ship. This is why Sci Capatians can use their powers regardless of ship. The question is what should the Tac Captain powers effect in terms of Boff abilities. If it were me w/few exceptions Sci powers would have little to no damage so Tac's boosting them would be moot.
Sci's aren't nearly as viable in Cruisers as they are in Sci ships or Escorts b/c most Cruisers turn like TRIBBLE and most of the best Sci abilities including the Captain Sci abilitity SNB requires a 90 degree forward arc.
You can't learn to make a best application of a blackhole. At best you improve it's gravitational force which is something for Science or perhaps Engineer not Tac. Tacs would know how to improve/apply target subsystems, scramble sensors, or jam sensors better ie use them for a better tactical advantage.
TBR is a CC w/damage not a debuff unless you're counting the Engine drain doff. TB is a working debuff though.
In the end I'd rather there be more a more Science foundation in the Sci-Fi game than have the fanatsy nature applied to space ships that you would like. I'd rather see things like GW and EWP and Tyken's Rift apply to all ships regardless if friend or foe. I'd like things to be congruant in terms of what damage would be boosted by a Tac Officer. I'd also like to see non-damage skills related to sensors potentionally boosted by a Tac Officer.
Oh please, you don't take a sci ship on the field for it's weapons and you know it. A Sci ships weapons are it's boff powers. What part of without Tac Buff sci powers, the combo would be completely useless do you not get? Seriously, you act like the weapons on a sci ship will some how be enough for the tac to do anything resembling damage. I hate to break this to you, but they don't. The weapons on a sci ship don't even come close to doing anything resembling damage. If you're taking a tac sci, and taking the non tac buffed sci skills on it, and expecting your weapons to make you a contributing member of your team you are either A Functionally TRIBBLE, or B completely inexperienced with the game, or C trolling your team mates by fielding as worthless as a combination as physically possible.
No but they know how to apply it the best. And frankly, using your "realism" logic (which I see we've now fallen back to another Rp Reason), GW should suck everyone in friend or foe and kill them all mercilessly once it hits the field.
Sci captain is more viable in a cruiser than a tac is in a cruiser fedside outside of the Excelsior and you know it, because of how immobile those said ships are. A tac you have to be capable of moving 24.7 where as with a Sci you only need to be on target once every minute 30, if you can't manage that, just uninstall your game now.
Good thing you aren't in charge then. Because that would make for a horrible game dynamic. There's a reason no one not even Cryptic does friendly fire AOEs in pvp.
You're talking about applying Realism, in a genre which Sodomizes the laws of physics, just to get from point A to Point B. Quit. Furthermore Realism has no place in a balance discussion. And if Tac sci were "game breaking" you'd see every tom **** and harry tack putting away their Bugs, Defiants, MVAMs, Excelsiors, and Fleet Vorchas and running straight to the sci ship because it's doing more damage.
Here's a hint. It's not doing more. Infact it's only situation dependent in Premade level play.
Oh please, you don't take a sci ship on the field for it's weapons and you know it. A Sci ships weapons are it's boff powers. What part of without Tac Buff sci powers, the combo would be completely useless do you not get? Seriously, you act like the weapons on a sci ship will some how be enough for the tac to do anything resembling damage. I hate to break this to you, but they don't. The weapons on a sci ship don't even come close to doing anything resembling damage. If you're taking a tac sci, and taking the non tac buffed sci skills on it, and expecting your weapons to make you a contributing member of your team you are either A Functionally TRIBBLE, or B completely inexperienced with the game, or C trolling your team mates by fielding as worthless as a combination as physically possible.
No but they know how to apply it the best. And frankly, using your "realism" logic (which I see we've now fallen back to another Rp Reason), GW should suck everyone in friend or foe and kill them all mercilessly once it hits the field.
Sci captain is more viable in a cruiser than a tac is in a cruiser fedside outside of the Excelsior and you know it, because of how immobile those said ships are. A tac you have to be capable of moving 24.7 where as with a Sci you only need to be on target once every minute 30, if you can't manage that, just uninstall your game now.
Good thing you aren't in charge then. Because that would make for a horrible game dynamic. There's a reason no one not even Cryptic does friendly fire AOEs in pvp.
You're talking about applying Realism, in a genre which Sodomizes the laws of physics, just to get from point A to Point B. Quit. Furthermore Realism has no place in a balance discussion. And if Tac sci were "game breaking" you'd see every tom **** and harry tack putting away their Bugs, Defiants, MVAMs, Excelsiors, and Fleet Vorchas and running straight to the sci ship because it's doing more damage.
Here's a hint. It's not doing more. Infact it's only situation dependent in Premade level play.
You're arguing against points I've never made. You made an argument that if Tacs don't boost Sci boff abilities' damage than Sci Captain abilities shouldn't work on an Escort. I repsonded it's not an apples to apples comparison. Then you go off on my reply to the foundation of your argument making assumptions and claims I never wrote. You did that in the other thread and I just dropped it. But you have a very bad habit of doing this.
In fact I've always been on the side that Tacs shouldn't be boosting damage for Sci Boffs, quite frankly I'd add EWP to that as well. DEM on the otherhand makes sense.
Further for the 3rd time I've listed Sensor abilities as something should boost, they could tag a buff onto FOMM to make it easy. I say this to point out I'm not anti Tac nor think they're OP.
You're the one whining about needing a fantasy "damage wizard" in a Science Fiction Space MMO. Quite frankly it's far too narrow minded. Tell me what ship in EvE is the "damage wizard"? Build the game around it's genre and IP not some generic fantasy formula.
You're wrong on the GW. The size of the GW matters. Much like we can heat matter to temperature greater than the surface of the sun w/o burning the planet down, it's feasible to make a blackwhole w/limited gravitational force effects. Yes there is the fiction element of Science Fiction, but often particularly to this IP it was grounded in the Scientific theories of the day.
Way to ignore Lockbox Cruisers and KDF Cruisers in your Tac Cruiser argument ... . There are far more decent Cruiser builds available for Tac's than Sci's. Btw, crappy movement really does hurt Sci's. What happen's when someone calls for a VM or SNB and you're stuck in a boat w/a turn base of 5 or 6?
There's an element of friendly fire already in the game w/HY tric anomalies. No one complains about those. There's also friendly fire generally in the form of Scrambles and AMS confusion. I see nothing wrong w/boosting GW holds for the cost of friendly fire. It'd add more thought than just spamming willy nilly an ability that doesn't work well or would be too OP if it only effected 1 side.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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Yes it is. It's the exact same thing only your wanna be sci TRIBBLE is too butt hurt over #s on a score board to see it.
You don't want tacs in sci ships, Fine. You don't get to play in Escorts or cruisers as a sci either. Deal with it chump. You don't get it both ways. After all it's not like an Escort or cruiser is going to have the necessary facilities to create a subnucleonic beam that's nearly as effective as what a sci ship can, you know the ship that Specializes in TRIBBLE the laws of physics in the first place harder than anything else.
Oh yes... sensor abilities... such as loljam sensors. or lolscramble.. And why do they get that exactly? After all sci are the ones with sensor scan.
Might as well chuck that out the list too cause of Rp reasons.
Oh yes you're going to create a spatial anamoly that differentiates between friend or foe, but not be able to increase it's potency.
Also who gives a flying **** about Eve. maybe you are in the wrong genre of game if you want Realism. Go play Bridge Commander. There is nothing realistic about Star Trash as an IP. It's as much sci fantasy, as star wars is if not more so.
We should eliminate each and everything in the game that violates the laws of physics. Welp there goes STO period. Energy shields that stop kinetic weapons, transporters, any and all "science" based abilities. Maybe that would make the experience more enjoyable for your rper self.
Actually people do complain about Trics. That's why no one in their right mind uses them anymore. Same deal with plas torps. They went from Seldom used to almost Never used, over night because of that Friendly Fire effect.
I said Fed Cruisers. For a reason dip ****. Because the KDF don't actually have Sci Ships in the first place. Thus this is the only place the Tac Sci argument comes up, and it comes up from weaksauce fail tards that can't pvp their way out of a wet paper bag. As far as what happens goes? At least you aren't sitting their with your thumb up your backside because you are unable to utilize the only thing your class is good for, which is mobility and damage.
If some chump flies infront of you, you only have to hit the button Once. And poof there go all of his defenses.
Target Subs is a bad idea for tacs, as are Non Damage based abilities such as scramble. Know why? I'll give you a hint. It involves the only thing tacs are good for, and pissing that straight down the toilet. Go faceroll yourself.
This is the arguement Period: "zomg it's not fair tacs do more damage than we do zomg! we should nerf them!"
Or "Zomg not realistic, and they do more damage than we do zomg zomg end of the world! It doesn't matter that it's still an inferior overall choice to a tac being in an Escort, or specialty cruiser zomg zogm nerf nerf nerf! It also doesn't matter that we can completely and utterly shut down a tacs alpha with contemptous ease or rip away his defenses or anyone elses either nerf tac zomg zogm zgom"
Anyone with a lick of sense on the other hand looks at Sci ship weapons, and how woefully inadequate they are for dealing DPS. And goes "oh well okay then maybe they should get the ability to boost their out put through sci abilities. Because otherwise there is literally no point in fielding this ship and captain class combo"
Seriously guys, even Gecko knows this.
The response from the kick tac sci in the nuts and make it so it never works again ever crowd is "I don't care zomg zomg they should never be allowed to fly sci ships anyway cause they also work in Escorts! zomg zomg!" While completely ignoring the fact that Sci also work in Escorts.
So if we took the so called "logic" of your camp, pitiful as it is, that means that if you wanted things to really be Balanced (which you don't), you'd kick sci scorts in the Nuts too. But you don't advocate it.
No no. Instead you do the classic whine and rage of a 12 year old girl that didn't get her wish at a birthday party, and scream "Scissors is OP! Nerf Scissors! Rock is fine though!" - Signed Paper.
Sorry if I'm being harsh to you but I'm sick and tired of reading arguments by people that know better. Who think they can pull the wool over their peers eyes anyway. Especially when they are as stupid as this.
I still think that tactical captain powers shouldnt boost non-weapons damage numbers.
You seem to keep saying the "poor science guy only worries about damage numbers" yet thats the same argument you keep using to say why tacticals should be able to out damage science with their own science powers.
Maybe all science powers just need to be changed to damage types that arnt boosted by tactical powers, that way tacticals wont boost them.
science ships in general do lower dps then any other ship in the game. Im totally fine with that, even with the added damage of the science abilities it isnt gonna win with sheer dps. itll win with tricks.
stick a tactical in there and it doesnt need the tricks. itll just do the insane dps with the science powers.
that isnt how the science ship is supposed to be, if the tactical wants to use a science ship for dps then he should rely on its weapons, and then use powers appropriate to low aux (since he'll more then likely be running high weapons power) so he can get the best bang for his buck. good dps and whatever science abilities he picks.
however as it stands now, he has no need to run high weapons power because the damage done by the tac boosted science powers are just too high. why bother shooting the target when you can just push him to death?
thats not what science ships, or tacitcal officers were intended to be imo.
All this arguing is pointless.
the first thing that needs to be done BEFORE anything else is "balanced" in this game is to rewrite the science skill tree.
thats the root cause of all the problems. thats the cancer thats causing all the pain. its what needs to be treated.
anything else thats fixed is just putting a bandaid on severed head. it wont do TRIBBLE.
I still think that tactical captain powers shouldnt boost non-weapons damage numbers.
You seem to keep saying the "poor science guy only worries about damage numbers" yet thats the same argument you keep using to say why tacticals should be able to out damage science with their own science powers.
Maybe all science powers just need to be changed to damage types that arnt boosted by tactical powers, that way tacticals wont boost them.
science ships in general do lower dps then any other ship in the game. Im totally fine with that, even with the added damage of the science abilities it isnt gonna win with sheer dps. itll win with tricks.
stick a tactical in there and it doesnt need the tricks. itll just do the insane dps with the science powers.
that isnt how the science ship is supposed to be, if the tactical wants to use a science ship for dps then he should rely on its weapons, and then use powers appropriate to low aux (since he'll more then likely be running high weapons power) so he can get the best bang for his buck. good dps and whatever science abilities he picks.
however as it stands now, he has no need to run high weapons power because the damage done by the tac boosted science powers are just too high. why bother shooting the target when you can just push him to death?
thats not what science ships, or tacitcal officers were intended to be imo.
All this arguing is pointless.
the first thing that needs to be done BEFORE anything else is "balanced" in this game is to rewrite the science skill tree.
thats the root cause of all the problems. thats the cancer thats causing all the pain. its what needs to be treated.
anything else thats fixed is just putting a bandaid on severed head. it wont do TRIBBLE.
Because unlike a Sci. A tac only brings damage to the field. the Tac's job regardless of ship type is the same. Bring as much pain as physically possible to the field in as short of time possible. Maybe you should play one some time. It might be rather enlightening.
Insane damage? Really? Then what exactly do you call Escort Damage? Because Tac Sci DPS is no where even close to what a good tac scort can pump, and it can't pump it nearly as consistently.
Again maybe you should go play a tac for a while. You seem to be confused as to the class role.
Actually you -better- run high weapon power as a Tac sci. Because you need the overload spikes, and weapon batteries afterwards. If you are cranking aux and using TBR as a tac barring special circumstances, You are Doing It Wrong and actually will deal considerably less damage.
Also, tell me just what do you think this great Kick To The Nuts is going to do for the MVAM? I'll give you a hint. It's not anything Good.
Also the whole "tac sci zomg!" thing? Yeah. Tac sci died the same day PSW3 did. You can't crank enough burst now as a sci ship to make the ordeal worth it. The only 2 skills left for tacs is TBR and FBP. Both of which need tac boosting, because otherwise the mvam? Will Suck Donkey Nuts.
Yes it is. It's the exact same thing only your wanna be sci TRIBBLE is too butt hurt over #s on a score board to see it.
You don't want tacs in sci ships, Fine. You don't get to play in Escorts or cruisers as a sci either. Deal with it chump. You don't get it both ways. After all it's not like an Escort or cruiser is going to have the necessary facilities to create a subnucleonic beam that's nearly as effective as what a sci ship can, you know the ship that Specializes in TRIBBLE the laws of physics in the first place harder than anything else.
Oh yes... sensor abilities... such as loljam sensors. or lolscramble.. And why do they get that exactly? After all sci are the ones with sensor scan.
Might as well chuck that out the list too cause of Rp reasons.
Oh yes you're going to create a spatial anamoly that differentiates between friend or foe, but not be able to increase it's potency.
Also who gives a flying **** about Eve. maybe you are in the wrong genre of game if you want Realism. Go play Bridge Commander. There is nothing realistic about Star Trash as an IP. It's as much sci fantasy, as star wars is if not more so.
We should eliminate each and everything in the game that violates the laws of physics. Welp there goes STO period. Energy shields that stop kinetic weapons, transporters, any and all "science" based abilities. Maybe that would make the experience more enjoyable for your rper self.
Actually people do complain about Trics. That's why no one in their right mind uses them anymore. Same deal with plas torps. They went from Seldom used to almost Never used, over night because of that Friendly Fire effect.
I said Fed Cruisers. For a reason dip ****. Because the KDF don't actually have Sci Ships in the first place. Thus this is the only place the Tac Sci argument comes up, and it comes up from weaksauce fail tards that can't pvp their way out of a wet paper bag. As far as what happens goes? At least you aren't sitting their with your thumb up your backside because you are unable to utilize the only thing your class is good for, which is mobility and damage.
If some chump flies infront of you, you only have to hit the button Once. And poof there go all of his defenses.
Target Subs is a bad idea for tacs, as are Non Damage based abilities such as scramble. Know why? I'll give you a hint. It involves the only thing tacs are good for, and pissing that straight down the toilet. Go faceroll yourself.
This is the arguement Period: "zomg it's not fair tacs do more damage than we do zomg! we should nerf them!"
Or "Zomg not realistic, and they do more damage than we do zomg zomg end of the world! It doesn't matter that it's still an inferior overall choice to a tac being in an Escort, or specialty cruiser zomg zogm nerf nerf nerf! It also doesn't matter that we can completely and utterly shut down a tacs alpha with contemptous ease or rip away his defenses or anyone elses either nerf tac zomg zogm zgom"
Anyone with a lick of sense on the other hand looks at Sci ship weapons, and how woefully inadequate they are for dealing DPS. And goes "oh well okay then maybe they should get the ability to boost their out put through sci abilities. Because otherwise there is literally no point in fielding this ship and captain class combo"
Seriously guys, even Gecko knows this.
The response from the kick tac sci in the nuts and make it so it never works again ever crowd is "I don't care zomg zomg they should never be allowed to fly sci ships anyway cause they also work in Escorts! zomg zomg!" While completely ignoring the fact that Sci also work in Escorts.
So if we took the so called "logic" of your camp, pitiful as it is, that means that if you wanted things to really be Balanced (which you don't), you'd kick sci scorts in the Nuts too. But you don't advocate it.
No no. Instead you do the classic whine and rage of a 12 year old girl that didn't get her wish at a birthday party, and scream "Scissors is OP! Nerf Scissors! Rock is fine though!" - Signed Paper.
Sorry if I'm being harsh to you but I'm sick and tired of reading arguments by people that know better. Who think they can pull the wool over their peers eyes anyway. Especially when they are as stupid as this.
Fyi, I have TAC on the KDF side I could abuse Sci boff abilities w/a Tac as much as the next guy if I wanted. I don't want to though ... perhaps if you'd stop trying to think for others and put words in their mouths you'd know this. If you don't think Sci Fi even more so Star Trek has inspired actually technolgy just google "star trek inspired technology" and read.
Declaring your opinion to be fact and resorting to ad hominem attacks makes you look weaker and the adolescent, fyi. Everyone can see this but you. If you'd actually like to have an adult discussion on the matter let me know.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Because unlike a Sci. A tac only brings damage to the field. the Tac's job regardless of ship type is the same. Bring as much pain as physically possible to the field in as short of time possible. Maybe you should play one some time. It might be rather enlightening.
Insane damage? Really? Then what exactly do you call Escort Damage? Because Tac Sci DPS is no where even close to what a good tac scort can pump, and it can't pump it nearly as consistently.
Again maybe you should go play a tac for a while. You seem to be confused as to the class role.
Actually you -better- run high weapon power as a Tac sci. Because you need the overload spikes, and weapon batteries afterwards. If you are cranking aux and using TBR as a tac barring special circumstances, You are Doing It Wrong and actually will deal considerably less damage.
Also, tell me just what do you think this great Kick To The Nuts is going to do for the MVAM? I'll give you a hint. It's not anything Good.
Also the whole "tac sci zomg!" thing? Yeah. Tac sci died the same day PSW3 did. You can't crank enough burst now as a sci ship to make the ordeal worth it. The only 2 skills left for tacs is TBR and FBP. Both of which need tac boosting, because otherwise the mvam? Will Suck Donkey Nuts.
I do have a tac. Mai Cake, i love using her in a defiant or excelisor. good stuff right there.
whenever i say insane damage, its relative to science or engineers flying a science ship. yes i know tacticals are supposed to do more damage then either, but when the tactical can do that extra damage over the sci AND have the same control powers the sci has with no downside then theres an issue.
I still think that tactical captain powers shouldnt boost non-weapons damage numbers.
You seem to keep saying the "poor science guy only worries about damage numbers" yet thats the same argument you keep using to say why tacticals should be able to out damage science with their own science powers.
Your crusade doesn't have a lot of support there... tactical captains should boost ALL dmg period. Last I checked SNB was just as effective in an escort... perhaps it should only strip half of peoples buffs if your in anything other then a sci ship.
I would advocate for a boost to a sci captain skill to make up the difference... how about a buff to sensor scan so that on top of what it does... it gave a 30s self buff that boosted particle generators by 300 or something... that would put it on par with Alpha for what it does for Tacs in sci.... That would have support .... instead of knocking another class down, why not buff the sci class up in a smart way.
Your crusade doesn't have a lot of support there... tactical captains should boost ALL dmg period. Last I checked SNB was just as effective in an escort... perhaps it should only strip half of peoples buffs if your in anything other then a sci ship.
I would advocate for a boost to a sci captain skill to make up the difference... how about a buff to sensor scan so that on top of what it does... it gave a 30s self buff that boosted particle generators by 300 or something... that would put it on par with Alpha for what it does for Tacs in sci.... That would have support .... instead of knocking another class down, why not buff the sci class up in a smart way.
Which in a game where the devs actually make smart choices id totally agree. However that isn't this game.
The skill tree needs adjusting before any captains or bo powers are touched. Then the no powers then the captain powers. In that order, for any semblance of balance to be created.
Then any future consoles need to be fit into the balance and just made powerful because it looks cool.
Seeing as neither of those things will happen though...
What Sci/Sci really cares about damage anyway? I might finish a match with credit for 2 or 3 kills. Does that mean I didn't do anything significant to help my team get the other 12 or 13? The only number that means anything to a good sci/sci captain is the final score.
Tacs have always boosted sci powers, and always should. There is nothing wrong with that. The only reason it's even a debate right now is because Sci/Sci captains have lost the tools to perform their jobs adequately. Those being boff skills that aren't shrugged off by any player with a borg deflector, and a skill tree that makes sense.
Which in a game where the devs actually make smart choices id totally agree. However that isn't this game.
The skill tree needs adjusting before any captains or bo powers are touched. Then the no powers then the captain powers. In that order, for any semblance of balance to be created.
Then any future consoles need to be fit into the balance and just made powerful because it looks cool.
Seeing as neither of those things will happen though...
Seeing as neither of those will happen... then they should change a tactical Captain skill... really not following your logic...
If they are going to change a captain skill which IS WHAT you are talking about with your nerf tac talk... then why not just buff sci again ?
In STO damage is king. How easy or fast you can kill someone is determined by your damage output. (this may not be true when it comes to pvp premades, but we can't really balance the game round these 50 people)
This is especially true in PvE!!!!! It's ALL about the damage.
Using the "tacs should do more damage" rule, Tacs will be superior to other classes. In pug-pvp, and in pve.
IMO, the only way to balance the classes, short of redoing the whole PvE system and other game mechanics, is to give scis and engis the ability to deal more damage.
I would picture something like (top of my head suggestion):
Tac: Leave as it is.
Sci: Give sci captains the ability to deal more damage with either sci-skills or torpedos (or both). Replace scatter field and sci fleet with "Advanced Projectiles" and "Sci pattern Alpha", bootsting sci and projectile damage.
Engi: To help engis, the drain mechanics should be adressed. Make every weapon after 5 drain exponentially more, making it unviable to run more than 5 enegy weapons unless you have good engi power buffs. Add to this a significantly shorter CD of nadion, and also a "drain reduction" to EPS transfer, and the classic beamboat, or the 4dhc+3turret escort will be a good engi choise.
In STO damage is king. How easy or fast you can kill someone is determined by your damage output. (this may not be true when it comes to pvp premades, but we can't really balance the game round these 50 people)
This is especially true in PvE!!!!! It's ALL about the damage.
Using the "tacs should do more damage" rule, Tacs will be superior to other classes. In pug-pvp, and in pve.
IMO, the only way to balance the classes, short of redoing the whole PvE system and other game mechanics, is to give scis and engis the ability to deal more damage.
I would picture something like (top of my head suggestion):
Tac: Leave as it is.
Sci: Give sci captains the ability to deal more damage with either sci-skills or torpedos (or both). Replace scatter field and sci fleet with "Advanced Projectiles" and "Sci pattern Alpha", bootsting sci and projectile damage.
Engi: To help engis, the drain mechanics should be adressed. Make every weapon after 5 drain exponentially more, making it unviable to run more than 5 enegy weapons unless you have good engi power buffs. Add to this a significantly shorter CD of nadion, and also a "drain reduction" to EPS transfer, and the classic beamboat, or the 4dhc+3turret escort will be a good engi choise.
actually healing is king, befuddling is queen, and damage is a red headed step child around people that know how to play.
it should absolutely be 'balanced' for us 50 people, the people that use their ships to as close to 100% of their potential as possible. in pve and pugs were there is no coordination and super healers, it can seem like damage is all that maters, but if they balance for that the game is broken. they would have to do away with cross healing in its entirety for that to work. balancing it not for us would be the same thing as gutting the teamwork portion of this game. it would be kirk online, were the only class worth using is tac.
because the pve is so absolutely pathetic, all you do is apply space bar over a period of time and your done. you are also rewarded over and over for having a terrible build and using less then 10% of your ships potential. then you try to pvp and its everyone else who is the problem :rolleyes: of course a tac is the only thing you should bother pveing in, the only thing that maters in pve is the only thing you do well. no player base in any game in the history of gaming has needed to L2P as badly as the vast majority of sto's players. and devs. it has a lot to do with pve teaching you how to play wrong
for quite literally the hundredth time, the damage a sci deals is irreverent. IRREVERENT. their abilitys could deal 0 damage, yet have their other effects and it would change nothing. those other effects arent as strong as they should be, thats the only problem with sci abilities right now. it does not mater if tacs can cause those science abilities to deal a fair bit of damage, wile doing that they arent doing what a sci does to set up a kill for his team mates. so a kill is not gotten. any attack patern science should buff the non damage effect, that would be 100 times more useful then buffed damage. for pve, it wouldn't hurt if npc's were more vulnerable to sci's effect, so it would be at least somewhat playable in pve.
to fix eng they should double the up time of nadion, make EPS power transfer the same thing as a team battery, and RSF and MW should be cast able. eng would be a beast, a must have healer. tac could no longer basically do its job wile dealing hilariously more damage.
actually healing is king, befuddling is queen, and damage is a red headed step child around people that know how to play.
it should absolutely be 'balanced' for us 50 people, the people that use their ships to as close to 100% of their potential as possible. in pve and pugs were there is no coordination and super healers, it can seem like damage is all that maters, but if they balance for that the game is broken. they would have to do away with cross healing in its entirety for that to work. balancing it not for us would be the same thing as gutting the teamwork portion of this game. it would be kirk online, were the only class worth using is tac.
because the pve is so absolutely pathetic, all you do is apply space bar over a period of time and your done. you are also rewarded over and over for having a terrible build and using less then 10% of your ships potential. then you try to pvp and its everyone else who is the problem :rolleyes: of course a tac is the only thing you should bother pveing in, the only thing that maters in pve is the only thing you do well. no player base in any game in the history of gaming has needed to L2P as badly as the vast majority of sto's players. and devs. it has a lot to do with pve teaching you how to play wrong
for quite literally the hundredth time, the damage a sci deals is irreverent. IRREVERENT. their abilitys could deal 0 damage, yet have their other effects and it would change nothing. those other effects arent as strong as they should be, thats the only problem with sci abilities right now. it does not mater if tacs can cause those science abilities to deal a fair bit of damage, wile doing that they arent doing what a sci does to set up a kill for his team mates. so a kill is not gotten. any attack patern science should buff the non damage effect, that would be 100 times more useful then buffed damage. for pve, it wouldn't hurt if npc's were more vulnerable to sci's effect, so it would be at least somewhat playable in pve.
to fix eng they should double the up time of nadion, make EPS power transfer the same thing as a team battery, and RSF and MW should be cast able. eng would be a beast, a must have healer. tac could no longer basically do its job wile dealing hilariously more damage.
Healing is king is only true for premades. Even in "elite" stfs you see team healing only when someone forgot so switch of "target of target casting". Sci abilities besides dealing damage are useless. Let's face it, the main objective in sto is to burn through those 500k hp of a tac cube as fast as possible. The only sci skill contributing to this at all is SS, and this does not affect the npc heavy damage dealers as they are immune. The devs have neither the wish nor the ability to make this a dynamic pvp game, because to do this they would have to completely redo PvE.
I'm all for balance. PvP is the way to measure balance, but with the aim to make PvE more balanced. And PvE is mainly about 1 thing. DPS. Staying alive in an escort in a STF is no problem (one-shotting excepted), even for a tac captain, so heals and damage negating is irrelevant. Zone control can only buy (=waste) time. FBP is useless, because even if you deal back 10 times the damage you receive you will die first because of the HP difference.
Sure, I'm writing this in the PvP forum, but "PvP is not an island". The other classes has to become relevant not only in PvP, but in PvE. Just look to groundplay: Here they more or less solved it, by allowing engis to drop extremely strong bombs, and by allowing scis to strip shields with tachyon harmonics. On ground, there IS a reason to field other classes.
In STO damage is king. How easy or fast you can kill someone is determined by your damage output. This is especially true in PvE!!!!! It's ALL about the damage.
I would picture something like (top of my head suggestion):
Tac: Leave as it is.
Sci: Give sci captains the ability to deal more damage with either sci-skills or torpedos (or both). Replace scatter field and sci fleet with "Advanced Projectiles" and "Sci pattern Alpha", bootsting sci and projectile damage.
Engi: To help engis, the drain mechanics should be adressed. Make every weapon after 5 drain exponentially more, making it unviable to run more than 5 enegy weapons unless you have good engi power buffs. Add to this a significantly shorter CD of nadion, and also a "drain reduction" to EPS transfer, and the classic beamboat, or the 4dhc+3turret escort will be a good engi choise.
actually healing is king, befuddling is queen, and damage is a red headed step child around people that know how to play.
it should absolutely be 'balanced' for us 50 people, the people that use their ships to as close to 100% of their potential as possible.
... balancing it not for us would be the same thing as gutting the teamwork portion of this game. it would be kirk online, were the only class worth using is tac.
because the pve is so absolutely pathetic, all you do is apply space bar over a period of time and your done. ...
for quite literally the hundredth time, the damage a sci deals is irreverent. IRREVERENT. their abilitys could deal 0 damage, yet have their other effects and it would change nothing. those other effects arent as strong as they should be, thats the only problem with sci abilities right now. ....
to fix eng they should double the up time of nadion, make EPS power transfer the same thing as a team battery, and RSF and MW should be cast able. eng would be a beast, a must have healer. tac could no longer basically do its job wile dealing hilariously more damage.
Just to be clear, there is too much healing in this game, however that healing doesn't come from Engs, which are the healing class. So healing being KING doesn't mean anything for class balance.
We have Kirk online at the moment, and i really doubt that balance took pvp premades into account....ever. Tac are the most viable option, its what we're going up against.
If healing were king, then premades would field more then one eng, which they have never done, we are now at the point that bringing even one eng is debatable.
If healing were king in PvE, 5 men eng/cruisers, would be the wtg in STFs and NWS ( which with the input of the pandas was designed to include a healing element.) The truth is though, 5 engs in escorts are better in both scenarios then in healboats.The best team combos for both completely ignore engs, as it is right now. How is healing king in pve?
Neither the 50 ppl, nor the masses can achieve anything with fielding more healing. Furthermore, PvP balance without PvE will never happen in this game. We need to make healing King, by reducing the amount of healing available, and maybe decreasing the effectiveness of yo-yo healing and make it rely on a healer class to be delivered.
While tacs are viable in all ship classes (except carriers) sci and engs have become second grade choices in everything.
This has nothing to do with only tac having the smarts to use their ship effectively. The ship classes are out of whack because sci ships are bad, and engs are not the best cruisers pilots anymore.
Healing does not generate kills, ever. The pressure DPS you gain, is negated by stuff like borg procs, BFI doffs, and other no skill events in PvP. In PvE the timer opt timers will simply run out, or the transporter explode, so dedicated healing has become marginalized.
If an escort can pop HE3 at 125 aux with nearly full uptime, what point is there in bringing a dedicated high aux cruisers or sci ship? none, of the sci cpt skills or eng cpt skills will make that HE3 at 125 aux be more potent then when a tac pops it.
Tac are out of whack, the only thing that counts in PvE and PvP is indeed burst dmg, and they deliver that best, as they should. CC lacks effectiveness to compensate lack of burst due to high resists in pvp, and a dedicated healer means a lock of burst dmg, or of snb so he becomes a burden as well.
In PvE, cc is a bit more effective, so sci ships help to reach missions objectives, but without any burst, not much gain here either. Engs and healers again are superflous. You keep the transport alive and reach wave 9 without em. Just look at CUSE, do you put a healing beam boat on the Kang with hugh aux to keep it alive, or an Tac/scort to blow up bops, which one reaches the optional more reliably in your view?
I agree completely that Engi and Sci could use a dmg boost....
My point was Mais crusade is silly... he would rather go play another game then take the 4 hours to level a new tac. ;P
Honesty Yes sci need a dmg boost... and if it revolved around sci ships that would be even better cause frankly if scis did 90% if the dmg of a tac there would be zero reason to ever run a tac scort... why not run a sci take the 10% dmg reduction and pick up a snb.
Scis need a self buff in the range of 30s... tied to something... think sensor scan would make the most sense to me... it finds the enemy weak points... and if it self buffed a +300 or so to particle gen... the same logic could apply to there sci magik.
Engis could also use a buff, in dmg... but again same reasoning they can't be made to be 90% of a tac or a gain why not run the an engi for all the freebie heals. Having said that I think something like nadion... could add an added, DEM like effect as well as the power drain resistance... giving them some extra spike... but on a longer cool down then either of the other 2 captain types.
That's all I think is needed to balance... the dmg numebrs... Frankly Tacticals should ALWAYS do more dmg in ANY ship then the other 2 classes... they DO NOT get free heals.... or Buff Strips. The most squishy class should logicly be the strongest in terms of dps.
I agree completely that Engi and Sci could use a dmg boost....
My point was Mais crusade is silly... he would rather go play another game then take the 4 hours to level a new tac. ;P
Honesty Yes sci need a dmg boost... and if it revolved around sci ships that would be even better cause frankly if scis did 90% if the dmg of a tac there would be zero reason to ever run a tac scort... why not run a sci take the 10% dmg reduction and pick up a snb.
Scis need a self buff in the range of 30s... tied to something... think sensor scan would make the most sense to me... it finds the enemy weak points... and if it self buffed a +300 or so to particle gen... the same logic could apply to there sci magik.
Engis could also use a buff, in dmg... but again same reasoning they can't be made to be 90% of a tac or a gain why not run the an engi for all the freebie heals. Having said that I think something like nadion... could add an added, DEM like effect as well as the power drain resistance... giving them some extra spike... but on a longer cool down then either of the other 2 captain types.
That's all I think is needed to balance... the dmg numebrs... Frankly Tacticals should ALWAYS do more dmg in ANY ship then the other 2 classes... they DO NOT get free heals.... or Buff Strips. The most squishy class should logicly be the strongest in terms of dps.
We seem to agree that escorts should be squishy, which they really aren't right now. But lets take this one step further, from a design perspective there seem to be two trends in this thread.
a) return some of the native boost of sticking with your ship class. Sci should be best in sci boats, Tac in escorts, Eng in cruisers.
b) make it so, that each class brings something unique (and viable, aka not sophie unique) to every ship class.
For a) all we need is to better synergize high level BO powers with cpt powers. I think this could work well, and be much easier, however, we need to keep the new escorts in mind.
for b) something along dassem's post would be the way to go. Eng were at some point design to be the only viable class for beam boat, why not make them viable for all cannon escorts. Buff High level Torps BO skills, which are after all a burst weapon. we would actually get a lot more diversity in the game.
I was thinking maybe make the Fleet skills, ship class dependent and replace them with new skills on the players. Want sci fleet, better field a sci ship, ....
To me this seems to be a lot more work, but it would result in a more intricate system, with more diversity, and the huge bonus, that players can fly the combos they want.
We need to come to a point, where there are specific sci scorts, sci cuirser and sci/sci that make sense. The current effectiveness of Tac/Fleet Vorcha, Tac/bug, and Tac/RSV shoud be the measuring stick. Where is my Eng/scort, Eng/cruiser, Eng/sci combo that rivals the tac options in usefullness, they don't exist imv
On a side note: Actually Tacs should always do the most dmg is relative to me. Tac should do the most effective dmg, which is burst. An eng sticking around for the whole match, should rival the tac's total dps and probably go slightly above it applied over time. Tac still is the killer, because of the burst that comes from his class. But I'm not sure tacs have to be better in DoT and in Burst.
On a side note: Actually Tacs should always do the most dmg is relative to me. Tac should do the most effective dmg, which is burst. An eng sticking around for the whole match, should rival the tac's total dps and probably go slightly above it applied over time. Tac still is the killer, because of the burst that comes from his class. But I'm not sure tacs have to be better in DoT and in Burst.
aha! this is an idea I really like!
a) sustained DPS: should require more power reserves, and be the engis speciality. Engis should be able to do more actual DPS.
b) spike DPS: should be less frequent and be the tacs specialty. Tacs should be able to deliver insane bursts, but less DPS over time.
c) torpedos and mines: should be the choise of a sci. And the sci should become good enough at dropping shields to negate the lack of power to weapons.
a and b could be acheived by tweaking drain mechanics and engi captain abilities, like i explained earlier.
c could be acheived by fixing Tacy/CPB, and by giving sci captains a way to boost their sci skills. Change Scatterfield to "Sci Proficiency". 15 second uptime, 45 second CD. +50 to all offensive sci skills.
I agree completely that Engi and Sci could use a dmg boost....
My point was Mais crusade is silly... he would rather go play another game then take the 4 hours to level a new tac. ;P
Honesty Yes sci need a dmg boost... and if it revolved around sci ships that would be even better cause frankly if scis did 90% if the dmg of a tac there would be zero reason to ever run a tac scort... why not run a sci take the 10% dmg reduction and pick up a snb.
Scis need a self buff in the range of 30s... tied to something... think sensor scan would make the most sense to me... it finds the enemy weak points... and if it self buffed a +300 or so to particle gen... the same logic could apply to there sci magik.
Engis could also use a buff, in dmg... but again same reasoning they can't be made to be 90% of a tac or a gain why not run the an engi for all the freebie heals. Having said that I think something like nadion... could add an added, DEM like effect as well as the power drain resistance... giving them some extra spike... but on a longer cool down then either of the other 2 captain types.
That's all I think is needed to balance... the dmg numebrs... Frankly Tacticals should ALWAYS do more dmg in ANY ship then the other 2 classes... they DO NOT get free heals.... or Buff Strips. The most squishy class should logicly be the strongest in terms of dps.
hey to be fair i didnt start this thread! all i did was state my opinions. and before id have the tac captain adjusted id redo the skill tree, then the science bo powers, then the science captain powers, then the tactical captains powers. in that order.
ive only ever pointed out that cryptic tends to take the path of laziness. the laziest option presented to them right now would be to nerf tactical captains. so going on history here, that's probably what'll happen.
Comments
unless they changed it recently, it sould be 10 tics of drain, one tic per second, meaning the base drain could just be x10'd to see total drain. With a maxed out build before, the right traits, the best deflector, etc., you could drain a little over 6k over 10 sec.
really, it used to be a perfectly balanced mechanism, draining good amounts of shields IF you could keep arc for 10 seconds
QFT
Heck, within the CPB range, anyone with some points in sensors flying a sciship (that is everyone that uses CPB) can see through the cloak anyway
I found a full specced GW3 even with full particle gens/ graviton skilled to 9, and the appropriate MK XII purple x4 consoles is still both ****ty on damage AND repel. In fact, i could easily fly out of a GW3 without much hassle, actually i didnt feel any repel or tractoring at all, and my omega wasnt up.
Should be buffed.
That's the one, and a good start it is. I also believe, at one point, that you had incorporated a replacement for "Starship Operations" that would give a boost to all sci abilities and have a buffing skill attaced to it. My memory gets a little hazy sometimes, but I remember talking about it with you, on the old forums, at some length.
that would have replaced decompiler, which would work here as well if the shield drain resist was included back into insulators. ether way.
if an advanced operations was included, and would be an entity in its self that is a blanket boost, it could be something put on deflectors, abilities like sci team and sci fleet, and even an attack pattern nerd to replace trash like photonic fleet.
all abilities might not need an effectiveness bump, they would get a bump from whether you speced into the expensive advanced operations skill, something only a sci ship user could really justify.
this would satisfy everyone who is so dead set on sci captains using sci skills most potently, even though its a tac captains only purpose to deal most damage were what ever hes in. it would be the pull, the push, the stun, and the disable that would be boosted as well, more importantly then extra damage.
well that's just preposterous...
Sci being the best class to fly a sci ship makes no sense at all...
Thats a great start to a much better skill tree layout dontdrunk. Anyone listening? Anyone? Well hell, even if no one is around to hear it, chop that damn tree down anyway!
Because then there is no reason what so ever to field a tac sci vs a sci sci. If sci could boost their damage output, rather than just boosting debuffs.
If you can't see why having no reason to do so is a bad thing you should go back to pve.
I agree Sci's shouldn't boost damage of their Boff powers while in Sci ships, but imo their boff powers should by and large be CC or debuffs by nature. The only abilities, imo, that Tac's should have a chance to boost are those based on Sensors such as TSSX (which is a Tac Boff power normally) and Scrambles/Jams. Others just feel out of place being boosted by Tacs.
I don't buy Tac's should be viable damage "wizards" in Sci ships. It's unneeded since Tac's can do other things well in a variety of ships (raiders, escorts, cruisers, even karfi carrier) and have options to dabble in Sci abilities w/Raiders, Karfi, and MVAEs. It also makes no sense that a Tac captain would be better at generating a more powerful GW ie blackhole than a Sci Captain as an example.
I'd rather see Engineer captains have a option of being more viable in Sci ships such as Weaver or Ods. for their repair, CC, debuff capabilities. It would be a nice alternative to pressure dps and repair of most cruisers. Further, most Eng scorts are TRIBBLE compared to Sci or Tac scorts, imo it'd be ok of most Tac's are TRIBBLE in sci boats and most Sci's are TRIBBLE in Cruisers.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Then sci shouldn't be allowed to use Sub Nuke, or Sci Fleet in Escorts. Because they are viable in Escorts, and Cruisers too for those two reasons.
Sure it does. The sci captain is better at generating the repel than the captain.
And here's why the tac captains does more damage. The tac sci captain spent all his time in academy, learning the Best Application with those given abilities to do as much damage as physically possible. The "no sense" argument should never be used for balance discussions, because frankly the "no sense" argument never holds water.
As it is right now the Sci is a better debuff captain than the Tactical captain is. The tac is the better damage captain. The only problem right now is TBR, VM (with doffs) and Tykens 3 (with Doff) are the only working debuff powers.
Your comparison in your 1st paragraph is not apples to apples. A Tac captain can still use his abilities to boost weapons damage regardless of ship. This is why Sci Capatians can use their powers regardless of ship. The question is what should the Tac Captain powers effect in terms of Boff abilities. If it were me w/few exceptions Sci powers would have little to no damage so Tac's boosting them would be moot.
Sci's aren't nearly as viable in Cruisers as they are in Sci ships or Escorts b/c most Cruisers turn like TRIBBLE and most of the best Sci abilities including the Captain Sci abilitity SNB requires a 90 degree forward arc.
You can't learn to make a best application of a blackhole. At best you improve it's gravitational force which is something for Science or perhaps Engineer not Tac. Tacs would know how to improve/apply target subsystems, scramble sensors, or jam sensors better ie use them for a better tactical advantage.
TBR is a CC w/damage not a debuff unless you're counting the Engine drain doff. TB is a working debuff though.
In the end I'd rather there be more a more Science foundation in the Sci-Fi game than have the fanatsy nature applied to space ships that you would like. I'd rather see things like GW and EWP and Tyken's Rift apply to all ships regardless if friend or foe. I'd like things to be congruant in terms of what damage would be boosted by a Tac Officer. I'd also like to see non-damage skills related to sensors potentionally boosted by a Tac Officer.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Oh please, you don't take a sci ship on the field for it's weapons and you know it. A Sci ships weapons are it's boff powers. What part of without Tac Buff sci powers, the combo would be completely useless do you not get? Seriously, you act like the weapons on a sci ship will some how be enough for the tac to do anything resembling damage. I hate to break this to you, but they don't. The weapons on a sci ship don't even come close to doing anything resembling damage. If you're taking a tac sci, and taking the non tac buffed sci skills on it, and expecting your weapons to make you a contributing member of your team you are either A Functionally TRIBBLE, or B completely inexperienced with the game, or C trolling your team mates by fielding as worthless as a combination as physically possible.
No but they know how to apply it the best. And frankly, using your "realism" logic (which I see we've now fallen back to another Rp Reason), GW should suck everyone in friend or foe and kill them all mercilessly once it hits the field.
Sci captain is more viable in a cruiser than a tac is in a cruiser fedside outside of the Excelsior and you know it, because of how immobile those said ships are. A tac you have to be capable of moving 24.7 where as with a Sci you only need to be on target once every minute 30, if you can't manage that, just uninstall your game now.
Good thing you aren't in charge then. Because that would make for a horrible game dynamic. There's a reason no one not even Cryptic does friendly fire AOEs in pvp.
You're talking about applying Realism, in a genre which Sodomizes the laws of physics, just to get from point A to Point B. Quit. Furthermore Realism has no place in a balance discussion. And if Tac sci were "game breaking" you'd see every tom **** and harry tack putting away their Bugs, Defiants, MVAMs, Excelsiors, and Fleet Vorchas and running straight to the sci ship because it's doing more damage.
Here's a hint. It's not doing more. Infact it's only situation dependent in Premade level play.
You're arguing against points I've never made. You made an argument that if Tacs don't boost Sci boff abilities' damage than Sci Captain abilities shouldn't work on an Escort. I repsonded it's not an apples to apples comparison. Then you go off on my reply to the foundation of your argument making assumptions and claims I never wrote. You did that in the other thread and I just dropped it. But you have a very bad habit of doing this.
In fact I've always been on the side that Tacs shouldn't be boosting damage for Sci Boffs, quite frankly I'd add EWP to that as well. DEM on the otherhand makes sense.
Further for the 3rd time I've listed Sensor abilities as something should boost, they could tag a buff onto FOMM to make it easy. I say this to point out I'm not anti Tac nor think they're OP.
You're the one whining about needing a fantasy "damage wizard" in a Science Fiction Space MMO. Quite frankly it's far too narrow minded. Tell me what ship in EvE is the "damage wizard"? Build the game around it's genre and IP not some generic fantasy formula.
You're wrong on the GW. The size of the GW matters. Much like we can heat matter to temperature greater than the surface of the sun w/o burning the planet down, it's feasible to make a blackwhole w/limited gravitational force effects. Yes there is the fiction element of Science Fiction, but often particularly to this IP it was grounded in the Scientific theories of the day.
Way to ignore Lockbox Cruisers and KDF Cruisers in your Tac Cruiser argument ... . There are far more decent Cruiser builds available for Tac's than Sci's. Btw, crappy movement really does hurt Sci's. What happen's when someone calls for a VM or SNB and you're stuck in a boat w/a turn base of 5 or 6?
There's an element of friendly fire already in the game w/HY tric anomalies. No one complains about those. There's also friendly fire generally in the form of Scrambles and AMS confusion. I see nothing wrong w/boosting GW holds for the cost of friendly fire. It'd add more thought than just spamming willy nilly an ability that doesn't work well or would be too OP if it only effected 1 side.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You don't want tacs in sci ships, Fine. You don't get to play in Escorts or cruisers as a sci either. Deal with it chump. You don't get it both ways. After all it's not like an Escort or cruiser is going to have the necessary facilities to create a subnucleonic beam that's nearly as effective as what a sci ship can, you know the ship that Specializes in TRIBBLE the laws of physics in the first place harder than anything else.
Oh yes... sensor abilities... such as loljam sensors. or lolscramble.. And why do they get that exactly? After all sci are the ones with sensor scan.
Might as well chuck that out the list too cause of Rp reasons.
Oh yes you're going to create a spatial anamoly that differentiates between friend or foe, but not be able to increase it's potency.
Also who gives a flying **** about Eve. maybe you are in the wrong genre of game if you want Realism. Go play Bridge Commander. There is nothing realistic about Star Trash as an IP. It's as much sci fantasy, as star wars is if not more so.
We should eliminate each and everything in the game that violates the laws of physics. Welp there goes STO period. Energy shields that stop kinetic weapons, transporters, any and all "science" based abilities. Maybe that would make the experience more enjoyable for your rper self.
Actually people do complain about Trics. That's why no one in their right mind uses them anymore. Same deal with plas torps. They went from Seldom used to almost Never used, over night because of that Friendly Fire effect.
I said Fed Cruisers. For a reason dip ****. Because the KDF don't actually have Sci Ships in the first place. Thus this is the only place the Tac Sci argument comes up, and it comes up from weaksauce fail tards that can't pvp their way out of a wet paper bag. As far as what happens goes? At least you aren't sitting their with your thumb up your backside because you are unable to utilize the only thing your class is good for, which is mobility and damage.
If some chump flies infront of you, you only have to hit the button Once. And poof there go all of his defenses.
Target Subs is a bad idea for tacs, as are Non Damage based abilities such as scramble. Know why? I'll give you a hint. It involves the only thing tacs are good for, and pissing that straight down the toilet. Go faceroll yourself.
This is the arguement Period: "zomg it's not fair tacs do more damage than we do zomg! we should nerf them!"
Or "Zomg not realistic, and they do more damage than we do zomg zomg end of the world! It doesn't matter that it's still an inferior overall choice to a tac being in an Escort, or specialty cruiser zomg zogm nerf nerf nerf! It also doesn't matter that we can completely and utterly shut down a tacs alpha with contemptous ease or rip away his defenses or anyone elses either nerf tac zomg zogm zgom"
Anyone with a lick of sense on the other hand looks at Sci ship weapons, and how woefully inadequate they are for dealing DPS. And goes "oh well okay then maybe they should get the ability to boost their out put through sci abilities. Because otherwise there is literally no point in fielding this ship and captain class combo"
Seriously guys, even Gecko knows this.
The response from the kick tac sci in the nuts and make it so it never works again ever crowd is "I don't care zomg zomg they should never be allowed to fly sci ships anyway cause they also work in Escorts! zomg zomg!" While completely ignoring the fact that Sci also work in Escorts.
So if we took the so called "logic" of your camp, pitiful as it is, that means that if you wanted things to really be Balanced (which you don't), you'd kick sci scorts in the Nuts too. But you don't advocate it.
No no. Instead you do the classic whine and rage of a 12 year old girl that didn't get her wish at a birthday party, and scream "Scissors is OP! Nerf Scissors! Rock is fine though!" - Signed Paper.
Sorry if I'm being harsh to you but I'm sick and tired of reading arguments by people that know better. Who think they can pull the wool over their peers eyes anyway. Especially when they are as stupid as this.
You seem to keep saying the "poor science guy only worries about damage numbers" yet thats the same argument you keep using to say why tacticals should be able to out damage science with their own science powers.
Maybe all science powers just need to be changed to damage types that arnt boosted by tactical powers, that way tacticals wont boost them.
science ships in general do lower dps then any other ship in the game. Im totally fine with that, even with the added damage of the science abilities it isnt gonna win with sheer dps. itll win with tricks.
stick a tactical in there and it doesnt need the tricks. itll just do the insane dps with the science powers.
that isnt how the science ship is supposed to be, if the tactical wants to use a science ship for dps then he should rely on its weapons, and then use powers appropriate to low aux (since he'll more then likely be running high weapons power) so he can get the best bang for his buck. good dps and whatever science abilities he picks.
however as it stands now, he has no need to run high weapons power because the damage done by the tac boosted science powers are just too high. why bother shooting the target when you can just push him to death?
thats not what science ships, or tacitcal officers were intended to be imo.
All this arguing is pointless.
the first thing that needs to be done BEFORE anything else is "balanced" in this game is to rewrite the science skill tree.
thats the root cause of all the problems. thats the cancer thats causing all the pain. its what needs to be treated.
anything else thats fixed is just putting a bandaid on severed head. it wont do TRIBBLE.
Because unlike a Sci. A tac only brings damage to the field. the Tac's job regardless of ship type is the same. Bring as much pain as physically possible to the field in as short of time possible. Maybe you should play one some time. It might be rather enlightening.
Insane damage? Really? Then what exactly do you call Escort Damage? Because Tac Sci DPS is no where even close to what a good tac scort can pump, and it can't pump it nearly as consistently.
Again maybe you should go play a tac for a while. You seem to be confused as to the class role.
Actually you -better- run high weapon power as a Tac sci. Because you need the overload spikes, and weapon batteries afterwards. If you are cranking aux and using TBR as a tac barring special circumstances, You are Doing It Wrong and actually will deal considerably less damage.
Also, tell me just what do you think this great Kick To The Nuts is going to do for the MVAM? I'll give you a hint. It's not anything Good.
Also the whole "tac sci zomg!" thing? Yeah. Tac sci died the same day PSW3 did. You can't crank enough burst now as a sci ship to make the ordeal worth it. The only 2 skills left for tacs is TBR and FBP. Both of which need tac boosting, because otherwise the mvam? Will Suck Donkey Nuts.
Fyi, I have TAC on the KDF side I could abuse Sci boff abilities w/a Tac as much as the next guy if I wanted. I don't want to though ... perhaps if you'd stop trying to think for others and put words in their mouths you'd know this. If you don't think Sci Fi even more so Star Trek has inspired actually technolgy just google "star trek inspired technology" and read.
Declaring your opinion to be fact and resorting to ad hominem attacks makes you look weaker and the adolescent, fyi. Everyone can see this but you. If you'd actually like to have an adult discussion on the matter let me know.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I do have a tac. Mai Cake, i love using her in a defiant or excelisor. good stuff right there.
whenever i say insane damage, its relative to science or engineers flying a science ship. yes i know tacticals are supposed to do more damage then either, but when the tactical can do that extra damage over the sci AND have the same control powers the sci has with no downside then theres an issue.
Your crusade doesn't have a lot of support there... tactical captains should boost ALL dmg period. Last I checked SNB was just as effective in an escort... perhaps it should only strip half of peoples buffs if your in anything other then a sci ship.
I would advocate for a boost to a sci captain skill to make up the difference... how about a buff to sensor scan so that on top of what it does... it gave a 30s self buff that boosted particle generators by 300 or something... that would put it on par with Alpha for what it does for Tacs in sci.... That would have support .... instead of knocking another class down, why not buff the sci class up in a smart way.
Which in a game where the devs actually make smart choices id totally agree. However that isn't this game.
The skill tree needs adjusting before any captains or bo powers are touched. Then the no powers then the captain powers. In that order, for any semblance of balance to be created.
Then any future consoles need to be fit into the balance and just made powerful because it looks cool.
Seeing as neither of those things will happen though...
Tacs have always boosted sci powers, and always should. There is nothing wrong with that. The only reason it's even a debate right now is because Sci/Sci captains have lost the tools to perform their jobs adequately. Those being boff skills that aren't shrugged off by any player with a borg deflector, and a skill tree that makes sense.
Seeing as neither of those will happen... then they should change a tactical Captain skill... really not following your logic...
If they are going to change a captain skill which IS WHAT you are talking about with your nerf tac talk... then why not just buff sci again ?
I have an issue with this...
In STO damage is king. How easy or fast you can kill someone is determined by your damage output. (this may not be true when it comes to pvp premades, but we can't really balance the game round these 50 people)
This is especially true in PvE!!!!! It's ALL about the damage.
Using the "tacs should do more damage" rule, Tacs will be superior to other classes. In pug-pvp, and in pve.
IMO, the only way to balance the classes, short of redoing the whole PvE system and other game mechanics, is to give scis and engis the ability to deal more damage.
I would picture something like (top of my head suggestion):
Tac: Leave as it is.
Sci: Give sci captains the ability to deal more damage with either sci-skills or torpedos (or both). Replace scatter field and sci fleet with "Advanced Projectiles" and "Sci pattern Alpha", bootsting sci and projectile damage.
Engi: To help engis, the drain mechanics should be adressed. Make every weapon after 5 drain exponentially more, making it unviable to run more than 5 enegy weapons unless you have good engi power buffs. Add to this a significantly shorter CD of nadion, and also a "drain reduction" to EPS transfer, and the classic beamboat, or the 4dhc+3turret escort will be a good engi choise.
actually healing is king, befuddling is queen, and damage is a red headed step child around people that know how to play.
it should absolutely be 'balanced' for us 50 people, the people that use their ships to as close to 100% of their potential as possible. in pve and pugs were there is no coordination and super healers, it can seem like damage is all that maters, but if they balance for that the game is broken. they would have to do away with cross healing in its entirety for that to work. balancing it not for us would be the same thing as gutting the teamwork portion of this game. it would be kirk online, were the only class worth using is tac.
because the pve is so absolutely pathetic, all you do is apply space bar over a period of time and your done. you are also rewarded over and over for having a terrible build and using less then 10% of your ships potential. then you try to pvp and its everyone else who is the problem :rolleyes: of course a tac is the only thing you should bother pveing in, the only thing that maters in pve is the only thing you do well. no player base in any game in the history of gaming has needed to L2P as badly as the vast majority of sto's players. and devs. it has a lot to do with pve teaching you how to play wrong
for quite literally the hundredth time, the damage a sci deals is irreverent. IRREVERENT. their abilitys could deal 0 damage, yet have their other effects and it would change nothing. those other effects arent as strong as they should be, thats the only problem with sci abilities right now. it does not mater if tacs can cause those science abilities to deal a fair bit of damage, wile doing that they arent doing what a sci does to set up a kill for his team mates. so a kill is not gotten. any attack patern science should buff the non damage effect, that would be 100 times more useful then buffed damage. for pve, it wouldn't hurt if npc's were more vulnerable to sci's effect, so it would be at least somewhat playable in pve.
to fix eng they should double the up time of nadion, make EPS power transfer the same thing as a team battery, and RSF and MW should be cast able. eng would be a beast, a must have healer. tac could no longer basically do its job wile dealing hilariously more damage.
Healing is king is only true for premades. Even in "elite" stfs you see team healing only when someone forgot so switch of "target of target casting". Sci abilities besides dealing damage are useless. Let's face it, the main objective in sto is to burn through those 500k hp of a tac cube as fast as possible. The only sci skill contributing to this at all is SS, and this does not affect the npc heavy damage dealers as they are immune. The devs have neither the wish nor the ability to make this a dynamic pvp game, because to do this they would have to completely redo PvE.
I'm all for balance. PvP is the way to measure balance, but with the aim to make PvE more balanced. And PvE is mainly about 1 thing. DPS. Staying alive in an escort in a STF is no problem (one-shotting excepted), even for a tac captain, so heals and damage negating is irrelevant. Zone control can only buy (=waste) time. FBP is useless, because even if you deal back 10 times the damage you receive you will die first because of the HP difference.
Sure, I'm writing this in the PvP forum, but "PvP is not an island". The other classes has to become relevant not only in PvP, but in PvE. Just look to groundplay: Here they more or less solved it, by allowing engis to drop extremely strong bombs, and by allowing scis to strip shields with tachyon harmonics. On ground, there IS a reason to field other classes.
I like your ideas.
Just to be clear, there is too much healing in this game, however that healing doesn't come from Engs, which are the healing class. So healing being KING doesn't mean anything for class balance.
We have Kirk online at the moment, and i really doubt that balance took pvp premades into account....ever. Tac are the most viable option, its what we're going up against.
If healing were king, then premades would field more then one eng, which they have never done, we are now at the point that bringing even one eng is debatable.
If healing were king in PvE, 5 men eng/cruisers, would be the wtg in STFs and NWS ( which with the input of the pandas was designed to include a healing element.) The truth is though, 5 engs in escorts are better in both scenarios then in healboats.The best team combos for both completely ignore engs, as it is right now. How is healing king in pve?
Neither the 50 ppl, nor the masses can achieve anything with fielding more healing. Furthermore, PvP balance without PvE will never happen in this game. We need to make healing King, by reducing the amount of healing available, and maybe decreasing the effectiveness of yo-yo healing and make it rely on a healer class to be delivered.
While tacs are viable in all ship classes (except carriers) sci and engs have become second grade choices in everything.
This has nothing to do with only tac having the smarts to use their ship effectively. The ship classes are out of whack because sci ships are bad, and engs are not the best cruisers pilots anymore.
Healing does not generate kills, ever. The pressure DPS you gain, is negated by stuff like borg procs, BFI doffs, and other no skill events in PvP. In PvE the timer opt timers will simply run out, or the transporter explode, so dedicated healing has become marginalized.
If an escort can pop HE3 at 125 aux with nearly full uptime, what point is there in bringing a dedicated high aux cruisers or sci ship? none, of the sci cpt skills or eng cpt skills will make that HE3 at 125 aux be more potent then when a tac pops it.
Tac are out of whack, the only thing that counts in PvE and PvP is indeed burst dmg, and they deliver that best, as they should. CC lacks effectiveness to compensate lack of burst due to high resists in pvp, and a dedicated healer means a lock of burst dmg, or of snb so he becomes a burden as well.
In PvE, cc is a bit more effective, so sci ships help to reach missions objectives, but without any burst, not much gain here either. Engs and healers again are superflous. You keep the transport alive and reach wave 9 without em. Just look at CUSE, do you put a healing beam boat on the Kang with hugh aux to keep it alive, or an Tac/scort to blow up bops, which one reaches the optional more reliably in your view?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
My point was Mais crusade is silly... he would rather go play another game then take the 4 hours to level a new tac. ;P
Honesty Yes sci need a dmg boost... and if it revolved around sci ships that would be even better cause frankly if scis did 90% if the dmg of a tac there would be zero reason to ever run a tac scort... why not run a sci take the 10% dmg reduction and pick up a snb.
Scis need a self buff in the range of 30s... tied to something... think sensor scan would make the most sense to me... it finds the enemy weak points... and if it self buffed a +300 or so to particle gen... the same logic could apply to there sci magik.
Engis could also use a buff, in dmg... but again same reasoning they can't be made to be 90% of a tac or a gain why not run the an engi for all the freebie heals. Having said that I think something like nadion... could add an added, DEM like effect as well as the power drain resistance... giving them some extra spike... but on a longer cool down then either of the other 2 captain types.
That's all I think is needed to balance... the dmg numebrs... Frankly Tacticals should ALWAYS do more dmg in ANY ship then the other 2 classes... they DO NOT get free heals.... or Buff Strips. The most squishy class should logicly be the strongest in terms of dps.
We seem to agree that escorts should be squishy, which they really aren't right now. But lets take this one step further, from a design perspective there seem to be two trends in this thread.
a) return some of the native boost of sticking with your ship class. Sci should be best in sci boats, Tac in escorts, Eng in cruisers.
b) make it so, that each class brings something unique (and viable, aka not sophie unique) to every ship class.
For a) all we need is to better synergize high level BO powers with cpt powers. I think this could work well, and be much easier, however, we need to keep the new escorts in mind.
for b) something along dassem's post would be the way to go. Eng were at some point design to be the only viable class for beam boat, why not make them viable for all cannon escorts. Buff High level Torps BO skills, which are after all a burst weapon. we would actually get a lot more diversity in the game.
I was thinking maybe make the Fleet skills, ship class dependent and replace them with new skills on the players. Want sci fleet, better field a sci ship, ....
To me this seems to be a lot more work, but it would result in a more intricate system, with more diversity, and the huge bonus, that players can fly the combos they want.
We need to come to a point, where there are specific sci scorts, sci cuirser and sci/sci that make sense. The current effectiveness of Tac/Fleet Vorcha, Tac/bug, and Tac/RSV shoud be the measuring stick. Where is my Eng/scort, Eng/cruiser, Eng/sci combo that rivals the tac options in usefullness, they don't exist imv
On a side note: Actually Tacs should always do the most dmg is relative to me. Tac should do the most effective dmg, which is burst. An eng sticking around for the whole match, should rival the tac's total dps and probably go slightly above it applied over time. Tac still is the killer, because of the burst that comes from his class. But I'm not sure tacs have to be better in DoT and in Burst.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
aha! this is an idea I really like!
a) sustained DPS: should require more power reserves, and be the engis speciality. Engis should be able to do more actual DPS.
b) spike DPS: should be less frequent and be the tacs specialty. Tacs should be able to deliver insane bursts, but less DPS over time.
c) torpedos and mines: should be the choise of a sci. And the sci should become good enough at dropping shields to negate the lack of power to weapons.
a and b could be acheived by tweaking drain mechanics and engi captain abilities, like i explained earlier.
c could be acheived by fixing Tacy/CPB, and by giving sci captains a way to boost their sci skills. Change Scatterfield to "Sci Proficiency". 15 second uptime, 45 second CD. +50 to all offensive sci skills.
hey to be fair i didnt start this thread! all i did was state my opinions. and before id have the tac captain adjusted id redo the skill tree, then the science bo powers, then the science captain powers, then the tactical captains powers. in that order.
ive only ever pointed out that cryptic tends to take the path of laziness. the laziest option presented to them right now would be to nerf tactical captains. so going on history here, that's probably what'll happen.