The transporter's generally not used in combat because you have to drop your own shields. Otherwise, you could disable an enemy's shield, and then beam their bridge and engineering staff straight to your brig and take control of their ship.
Although knowing Trek there are probably a couple of occassions where that restriction is ignored.
Fair point. But the 'beaming through raised shields' thing cropped up in a TOS ep. I only saw it recently (been watching the sets at 2-3 eps per night), but I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head.
Then again it was good ol' Jim Kirk, and apparently he was capable of anything.
Fair point. But the 'beaming through raised shields' thing cropped up in a TOS ep. I only saw it recently (been watching the sets at 2-3 eps per night), but I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head.
Then again it was good ol' Jim Kirk, and apparently he was capable of anything.
Anything. That includes winning the No-Win Scenario.
Fair point. But the 'beaming through raised shields' thing cropped up in a TOS ep. I only saw it recently (been watching the sets at 2-3 eps per night), but I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head.
Then again it was good ol' Jim Kirk, and apparently he was capable of anything.
In 'Relics', Geordie and Scotty beam through the Jenolan's sheild while it's being used to prop open the big door, allowing the Enterprise to escape.
It actually was a pretty cool episode. It's unfortuante that the producers decided to rework the antagonists into the Borg and dropped that race entirely.
You can beam through a shield if you can match the frequency of the shield harmonic. That doesn't work in combat because the shield harmonics get thrown off by weapons fire.
it's sad that in the TNG feature film era, we only had one out of four that was halfway decent, and didn't feel like a long tv episode.
I have to disagree, ok First Contact is easily the best Trek film but the other TNG films are also good in their own way, in my opinion. Generations is great, the only thing that's any good and has Kirk in it and it kills him twice , Insurrection does feel somewhat like a TNG TV movie, but the TNG 2-parters are fairly enjoyable. Nemesis should have had Sela and not that random Picard clone but I like real (ridged) Romulans so I can let it slide. A D'deridex would also have been nice too but hey.
Also, while I'm here, Voyager is my 2nd favourite Trek series after DS9.
I think it's sad there's only 4 even halfway decent Trek films out of 11.
You can beam through a shield if you can match the frequency of the shield harmonic. That doesn't work in combat because the shield harmonics get thrown off by weapons fire.
You can do anything in Trek - even the impossible - if the writers said so.
Stating something is impossible or possible based on trek-universe rules is pointless. As soon as the writers boxed themselves into a corner, the impossible would magically become possible.
Hero ship against impossible odds? Writer waves pen - Hero ship wins.
Impossible to beam thru shields? Writer waves pen - possible to beam thru shields.
"The Changing Face of Evil":
The Breen come along with their God-mode weapon, use it to destroy an entire fleet, and whilst they're all floating around helplessy in escape pods the Female Changling decides to let them all live. Because it'll be demoralising. Dead officers are less use than demoralised ones, and it only takes one person to deliver the message that they're all screwed anyway. I appreciate the series heroes cannot die, so why put them in a situation that they can only escape from because the series baddie is an idiot?
in the interests of fairness, what the changeling did made perfect sense. while you can kill the people in the escape pods easily, its more valuable to use them to demoralize personnel on their side. never underestimate the value of psychological warfare
"I...am...KIROK!", anyone?
is anyone else amaze that that never turned into an internet meme? it could be right up there with the hitler downfall clips
Oh, and I totally forgot the TOS episode where Kirk is being ridden like a horse by a midget and Spock is Flaminco dancing. Really. It happened. True story
when you say it that way.....hmm...yeah thats just wrong. I mean really...what were they smoking when they came up with THAT one
That was, despite the cornball, one of the better TOS eps. The concept of what a civilization would be like if everyone had telekinetic powers was awesome.
so....your idea of an awesome society is.....riding people around like horses? well it would solve the greenhouse gas problem at least. rush hour might be interesting though
it was an insult to Greece (one of many)
at least they didn't have some alien plato riding kirk like a horse
1: I see no reason to believe they didn't know what Ferengi looked like
nor do I. they mentioned them in the first episode as well
It worked for the Axis, the Allies were too afird to attack on land the Germans for years after the British Troops evacuated from Dunkirk and were too much in shock years later that they could not come up with a plan to free Europe.
no. such inaction had nothing to do with fear of the germans. it had everything to do with a lack of manpower, resources and equipment to mount any kind of sizable attack, and frankly no idea of how to win the war. the reality is, in 1940 nobody actually expected the allies to win the war. it took four full years just to assemble the resources and manpower to do what they did on d-day, and even that was at best a longshot
For a villain of the week, Armus was actually a kinda cool idea
indeed. though for some reason he always reminds me of some kind of smoking addiction incarnate ('rawr i'm going to fill up your lungs with my black gooeyness if you keep smoking rawr')
Speaking of the JJ ship, lets not forget the million watt lighting on the bridge
maybe starfleet was bought by apple :eek: though that does remind me of that deleted scene from alien resurrection that says that walmart bought out rilpeys old company. I guess nobody would be stealing from them anymore when they saw that a xenomorph was the official walmart greeter
Scottie is king though, there is nothing he cannot do
except stay sober in engineering apparently. explains why everything is rigged up in a weird way whenever someone else looks at it
no. such inaction had nothing to do with fear of the germans. it had everything to do with a lack of manpower, resources and equipment to mount any kind of sizable attack, and frankly no idea of how to win the war. the reality is, in 1940 nobody actually expected the allies to win the war. it took four full years just to assemble the resources and manpower to do what they did on d-day, and even that was at best a longshot
Actually, the Allies had their first victory over a Axis Army in 1942. Peeved Hitler enough that he moved units destined for the Western Front into the Balkans so that Italy's Army could be spared a total defeat.
Still there were many things leading up to D-Day, the massive bombing campaigns, the Dieppe Raid although a "failure", was the turning point when they realized as long as a the Army, Navy and Air Forces worked together in any kind of invasion, there is a strong posibility of it being successful.
Eventually a plan came together, and it worked. But only because Germany could not fight a two sided war, which is why the landings were kept off till the Russians started their own offesives.
Okay this always bugged me where were the lazy people I mean come on take Earth full weather control, replicators, pretty liberal laws, universal health care and it appears to me a pretty much we won't let our people die in the streets attitude. Right. So why the hell would you want a JOB I mean you could swim, read books and old movies and if you needed an excuse say you just don't want to work and YOU want me to starve and all fine I'll starve to death right at Federation HQ making you look bad.
I mean not everyone would sit around and do nothing but I'm sure some subculture would just remember the one where they looked for Eden, where were the hippies.
And anyone else think McCoy reimplanting Spocks Brain was a bit much?
Okay this always bugged me where were the lazy people I mean come on take Earth full weather control, replicators, pretty liberal laws, universal health care and it appears to me a pretty much we won't let our people die in the streets attitude. Right. So why the hell would you want a JOB I mean you could swim, read books and old movies and if you needed an excuse say you just don't want to work and YOU want me to starve and all fine I'll starve to death right at Federation HQ making you look bad.
In the Trek universe, you don't need a job - at least not as we know them. The question is, what would a world without the profit motive/need to earn to pay for food really be like (though in theory, we could already feed a global population of 15 billion, annually, if we eliminated want and waste, so the current 7 billion would be more than well catered for; we simply choose not to)?
Some people always assume that, without the need to work, no one would work at all. Tbh, I have always thought that this says more about them than it does about human nature and what shape a future moneyless society might take. And make no mistake, a moneyless society must eventually happen. Constant economic growth is impossible to sustain, if for no other reason than, one day, we WILL run out of resources. At that point, existing technologies will be cannibalised down to a final working model, and when that ceased to function, there will be no more commodities with which to build replacement parts. Equally, future tech might hold answers, but it would remain theoretical - the resources needed to make the equipment would have already been used long ago.
So we can manage the transition, or we can let it whack us on the head at some future point (at which point, conflict leading to our extinction would be inevitable - the signs are already there).
But the main argument against the line 'Without need we would do nothing' is simply this: there are people in the world who do perform tasks for no payment, and where there is no need.
In the Trek future, people do what they do because they want to do it, be it seeking knowledge via forms of research, exploring the galaxy, and so on.
We'd also still need certain skills. Anyone can cook, but there is a great variance in skill and people would generally rather eat a good meal than burnt offerings. People like to cook even now; if someone in the future was so minded, they could easily run a restaurant/cafe/bistro (like Sisko's dad in DS9).
Future folks would choose to work, and choose the work they did. Ultimately, you'd still have a lifetime to fill. We do that with work and so cherish lazy days. If you had a lifetime of lazy days, you'd eventually get so bored that you'd find something to do (not that people of that time would think that way and do things only out of boredom).
But, in Trek, what is stupid about that is that the Federation (or at least, Earth) has no need of money...and yet elsewhere there is still a need for gold-pressed latinum. Which is currency. And you can't really run both systems.
Why would you pay Quark for a drink when you could just whistle one up from a replicator (which is pretty much what Quark does anyway)? Yet that is what happens.
Why pay him to use the holosuites when you could get a team of Starfleet engineers in to make free holodecks? Yet this is what happens.
so....your idea of an awesome society is.....riding people around like horses? well it would solve the greenhouse gas problem at least. rush hour might be interesting though
no..... I was saying the writers did an awesome job imagining what a despotic state would be like if it was run by a guy who enforced his totalitarian regime with his telekinetic powers...
It's always felt kinda hollow to me the idea that the Federation doesn't use any sort of money... It makes more sense that the average person doesn't need money...
Seeing the Undine blasting the heck out of multiple cubes in a few seconds, but what happens when they blast Voyager? It's knocked around instead of being destroyed.
Seeing the Undine blasting the heck out of multiple cubes in a few seconds, but what happens when they blast Voyager? It's knocked around instead of being destroyed.
yeah when I saw that scene I was like WTF????? That made no sense whatsoever. I decided to treat it as figurative and NOT the actual speed with which the Borg were destroyed.
in the interests of fairness, what the changeling did made perfect sense. while you can kill the people in the escape pods easily, its more valuable to use them to demoralize personnel on their side. never underestimate the value of psychological warfare
Supporting this point...
If they killed all the survivors, then there would not be any fear of the super weapon.
If they killed some of the helpless survivors, then they would harden resolve against them.
By leaving them alone, they got a "They casually wiped us out, and ignored us like we didn't matter!"
Worf Fights: I thought Worf was Awesome, but every time he got into a fight..he lost, and not just lost..he lost always in quite a pitiful way. Oh no crates..
Security Teams: Your a security guy you have a phaser, and someones being mauled by a huge 7 foot monster with muscles bigger then your head...so what do you do..you run at them and try to hit/grab them good job...
Wesley Crusher: Enough said.
The holodeck episode on Voyager when stuck in beowulf
Scotty sees Kirk die in the movie, yet Mr. Scott believes Kirk is alive later in "Relics".
When Q introduces the Borg he claims they are unisex (without gender)... I wonder if he never met Seven?
In the "Naked Now" Data is infected by the water molecule...
In the movie "First Contact" phasers and such quickly become useless as the Borg adapt, but the Captain blows one away with a Tommy Gun on the holodeck. So why weren't these replicated and passed out to the crew?
I never cared much for the Voyager series. The whole replicator rationing made no sense what-so-ever. Here you have a machine that can take atoms from organic and inorganic material and shuffle it like a deck of cards. Yet they needed to ration the use of the machines.
Don't even get me started on the 2001 Enterprise series. :P
Scotty sees Kirk die in the movie, yet Mr. Scott believes Kirk is alive later in "Relics".
When Q introduces the Borg he claims they are unisex (without gender)... I wonder if he never met Seven?
Yeah because an 80 year old man's mind doesn't wander at all, especialy after so long in disassembled bits.
The drones are, not the organic hosts they have.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Scotty sees Kirk die in the movie, yet Mr. Scott believes Kirk is alive later in "Relics".
Your getting your time line mixed up, TNG Relics happened in 2369. Generations happened (when Kirk dies) is 2371.
He saw Kirk get thrown into that energy wave at the start of Generations, which Scotty knew, like many others, that the refugees they rescued didn't die going into it, so why would he believe that Kirk was dead?
Your getting your time line mixed up, TNG Relics happened in 2369. Generations happened (when Kirk dies) is 2371.
He saw Kirk get thrown into that energy wave at the start of Generations, which Scotty knew, like many others, that the refugees they rescued didn't die going into it, so why would he believe that Kirk was dead?
Actually...
At the start of Generations (TOS crew), Scotty sees Kirk 'die' (2293)
At some later date, Scotty ends up trapped in the transporter for ca. 70 years (so around 2294-2299, since he can hardly end up in the buffer first AND see Kirk 'die').
2369: TNG "Relics".
2371: TNG portion of Generations, in which the energy wave's nature is revealed, Kirk is discovered alive, and so on.
So Scotty should have believed Kirk to be dead. In that case, the only plausible 'in-universe' explanation is that he'd forgotten due to a combination of age and info/energy degradation whilst in the transporter system.
(Of course, the real explanation is that the writers dropped the ball, probably during a rewrite.)
At the start of Generations (TOS crew), Scotty sees Kirk 'die' (2293)
No they see the energy wave hit the ship, tear out a piece of the hull, with Kirk supposedly being in there, and vanished without a trace. At that point in the movie they assumed he was dead.
However, to the refugees it was well known that entering the energy wave was not a death sentence, and after discussing with them what happened (aka debriefing), it would have been known that Kirk might not be dead.
At the start of Generations (TOS crew), Scotty sees Kirk 'die' (2293)
At some later date, Scotty ends up trapped in the transporter for ca. 70 years (so around 2294-2299, since he can hardly end up in the buffer first AND see Kirk 'die').
2369: TNG "Relics".
2371: TNG portion of Generations, in which the energy wave's nature is revealed, Kirk is discovered alive, and so on.
So Scotty should have believed Kirk to be dead. In that case, the only plausible 'in-universe' explanation is that he'd forgotten due to a combination of age and info/energy degradation whilst in the transporter system.
(Of course, the real explanation is that the writers dropped the ball, probably during a rewrite.)
no.... the only plausible explanation is that Scotty didn't beleive Kirk was dead. Let's face it, how many other times did Scotty see Kirk cheat death? Scotty was waiting for Kirk to show up alive even years later. KIA status be d---ed! Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to act like that IRL, why is it hard to beleive Scotty did?
Comments
Fair point. But the 'beaming through raised shields' thing cropped up in a TOS ep. I only saw it recently (been watching the sets at 2-3 eps per night), but I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head.
Then again it was good ol' Jim Kirk, and apparently he was capable of anything.
Anything. That includes winning the No-Win Scenario.
In 'Relics', Geordie and Scotty beam through the Jenolan's sheild while it's being used to prop open the big door, allowing the Enterprise to escape.
It actually was a pretty cool episode. It's unfortuante that the producers decided to rework the antagonists into the Borg and dropped that race entirely.
My character Tsin'xing
Scottie is king though, there is nothing he cannot do.
Jim
My character Tsin'xing
I have to disagree, ok First Contact is easily the best Trek film but the other TNG films are also good in their own way, in my opinion. Generations is great, the only thing that's any good and has Kirk in it and it kills him twice
Also, while I'm here, Voyager is my 2nd favourite Trek series after DS9.
I think it's sad there's only 4 even halfway decent Trek films out of 11.
Plato
Frame of Mind is an incredible episode! One of my favorite from TNG!!
You can do anything in Trek - even the impossible - if the writers said so.
Stating something is impossible or possible based on trek-universe rules is pointless. As soon as the writers boxed themselves into a corner, the impossible would magically become possible.
Hero ship against impossible odds? Writer waves pen - Hero ship wins.
Impossible to beam thru shields? Writer waves pen - possible to beam thru shields.
and the list goes on and on...
I've not used a pen in years! (Not to actually write-write with. Jot notes, yeah...)
in the interests of fairness, what the changeling did made perfect sense. while you can kill the people in the escape pods easily, its more valuable to use them to demoralize personnel on their side. never underestimate the value of psychological warfare
is anyone else amaze that that never turned into an internet meme? it could be right up there with the hitler downfall clips
when you say it that way.....hmm...yeah thats just wrong. I mean really...what were they smoking when they came up with THAT one
so....your idea of an awesome society is.....riding people around like horses? well it would solve the greenhouse gas problem at least. rush hour might be interesting though
at least they didn't have some alien plato riding kirk like a horse
nor do I. they mentioned them in the first episode as well
no. such inaction had nothing to do with fear of the germans. it had everything to do with a lack of manpower, resources and equipment to mount any kind of sizable attack, and frankly no idea of how to win the war. the reality is, in 1940 nobody actually expected the allies to win the war. it took four full years just to assemble the resources and manpower to do what they did on d-day, and even that was at best a longshot
indeed. though for some reason he always reminds me of some kind of smoking addiction incarnate ('rawr i'm going to fill up your lungs with my black gooeyness if you keep smoking rawr')
maybe starfleet was bought by apple :eek: though that does remind me of that deleted scene from alien resurrection that says that walmart bought out rilpeys old company. I guess nobody would be stealing from them anymore when they saw that a xenomorph was the official walmart greeter
except stay sober in engineering apparently. explains why everything is rigged up in a weird way whenever someone else looks at it
Actually, the Allies had their first victory over a Axis Army in 1942. Peeved Hitler enough that he moved units destined for the Western Front into the Balkans so that Italy's Army could be spared a total defeat.
Still there were many things leading up to D-Day, the massive bombing campaigns, the Dieppe Raid although a "failure", was the turning point when they realized as long as a the Army, Navy and Air Forces worked together in any kind of invasion, there is a strong posibility of it being successful.
Eventually a plan came together, and it worked. But only because Germany could not fight a two sided war, which is why the landings were kept off till the Russians started their own offesives.
Funny enough, Scotty was the one doing the least amount of visible drinking while on TV or in the movies.
Jim
I mean not everyone would sit around and do nothing but I'm sure some subculture would just remember the one where they looked for Eden, where were the hippies.
And anyone else think McCoy reimplanting Spocks Brain was a bit much?
Mary Sue would not exist without fans,
Neither would simple arguments, like money or space boots to help you camp before you see god..
If you know how Trek works, well here's your badge......
In the Trek universe, you don't need a job - at least not as we know them. The question is, what would a world without the profit motive/need to earn to pay for food really be like (though in theory, we could already feed a global population of 15 billion, annually, if we eliminated want and waste, so the current 7 billion would be more than well catered for; we simply choose not to)?
Some people always assume that, without the need to work, no one would work at all. Tbh, I have always thought that this says more about them than it does about human nature and what shape a future moneyless society might take. And make no mistake, a moneyless society must eventually happen. Constant economic growth is impossible to sustain, if for no other reason than, one day, we WILL run out of resources. At that point, existing technologies will be cannibalised down to a final working model, and when that ceased to function, there will be no more commodities with which to build replacement parts. Equally, future tech might hold answers, but it would remain theoretical - the resources needed to make the equipment would have already been used long ago.
So we can manage the transition, or we can let it whack us on the head at some future point (at which point, conflict leading to our extinction would be inevitable - the signs are already there).
But the main argument against the line 'Without need we would do nothing' is simply this: there are people in the world who do perform tasks for no payment, and where there is no need.
In the Trek future, people do what they do because they want to do it, be it seeking knowledge via forms of research, exploring the galaxy, and so on.
We'd also still need certain skills. Anyone can cook, but there is a great variance in skill and people would generally rather eat a good meal than burnt offerings. People like to cook even now; if someone in the future was so minded, they could easily run a restaurant/cafe/bistro (like Sisko's dad in DS9).
Future folks would choose to work, and choose the work they did. Ultimately, you'd still have a lifetime to fill. We do that with work and so cherish lazy days. If you had a lifetime of lazy days, you'd eventually get so bored that you'd find something to do (not that people of that time would think that way and do things only out of boredom).
But, in Trek, what is stupid about that is that the Federation (or at least, Earth) has no need of money...and yet elsewhere there is still a need for gold-pressed latinum. Which is currency. And you can't really run both systems.
Why would you pay Quark for a drink when you could just whistle one up from a replicator (which is pretty much what Quark does anyway)? Yet that is what happens.
Why pay him to use the holosuites when you could get a team of Starfleet engineers in to make free holodecks? Yet this is what happens.
It's always felt kinda hollow to me the idea that the Federation doesn't use any sort of money... It makes more sense that the average person doesn't need money...
My character Tsin'xing
No wonder he got kicked to CE.
My character Tsin'xing
If they killed all the survivors, then there would not be any fear of the super weapon.
If they killed some of the helpless survivors, then they would harden resolve against them.
By leaving them alone, they got a "They casually wiped us out, and ignored us like we didn't matter!"
Cue Morn running into the Bajoran shrine naked and crying to the Prophets...
Worf Fights: I thought Worf was Awesome, but every time he got into a fight..he lost, and not just lost..he lost always in quite a pitiful way. Oh no crates..
Security Teams: Your a security guy you have a phaser, and someones being mauled by a huge 7 foot monster with muscles bigger then your head...so what do you do..you run at them and try to hit/grab them good job...
Wesley Crusher: Enough said.
The holodeck episode on Voyager when stuck in beowulf
Scotty sees Kirk die in the movie, yet Mr. Scott believes Kirk is alive later in "Relics".
When Q introduces the Borg he claims they are unisex (without gender)... I wonder if he never met Seven?
In the "Naked Now" Data is infected by the water molecule...
In the movie "First Contact" phasers and such quickly become useless as the Borg adapt, but the Captain blows one away with a Tommy Gun on the holodeck. So why weren't these replicated and passed out to the crew?
I never cared much for the Voyager series. The whole replicator rationing made no sense what-so-ever. Here you have a machine that can take atoms from organic and inorganic material and shuffle it like a deck of cards. Yet they needed to ration the use of the machines.
Don't even get me started on the 2001 Enterprise series. :P
Yeah because an 80 year old man's mind doesn't wander at all, especialy after so long in disassembled bits.
The drones are, not the organic hosts they have.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Your getting your time line mixed up, TNG Relics happened in 2369. Generations happened (when Kirk dies) is 2371.
He saw Kirk get thrown into that energy wave at the start of Generations, which Scotty knew, like many others, that the refugees they rescued didn't die going into it, so why would he believe that Kirk was dead?
Jim
Actually...
At the start of Generations (TOS crew), Scotty sees Kirk 'die' (2293)
At some later date, Scotty ends up trapped in the transporter for ca. 70 years (so around 2294-2299, since he can hardly end up in the buffer first AND see Kirk 'die').
2369: TNG "Relics".
2371: TNG portion of Generations, in which the energy wave's nature is revealed, Kirk is discovered alive, and so on.
So Scotty should have believed Kirk to be dead. In that case, the only plausible 'in-universe' explanation is that he'd forgotten due to a combination of age and info/energy degradation whilst in the transporter system.
(Of course, the real explanation is that the writers dropped the ball, probably during a rewrite.)
No they see the energy wave hit the ship, tear out a piece of the hull, with Kirk supposedly being in there, and vanished without a trace. At that point in the movie they assumed he was dead.
However, to the refugees it was well known that entering the energy wave was not a death sentence, and after discussing with them what happened (aka debriefing), it would have been known that Kirk might not be dead.
Jim
My character Tsin'xing