When I parse data I check numbers and percents. I can confirm that the KCB does LESS damage over time than a turret with CSV 3 and 1. The only time the KCB does more damage is when the turret is not being affected by a cannon special (which on my ship is almost never, in fact any escort cycling cannon specials with the EWO doff will only have about 25% specials downtime)
So if youre using the doff for energy weapon cannon special cds, you really should use a third turret.
The assimilated 2 piece would be the only real loss, and it doesnt do much.
But the difference between them is very very minimal, about 30 dps all told. So the KCB is a viable piece of equipment, just a hardcore minmaxer like me might look to other options, as I have.
One plus to the KCB I can say is for more novice pilots, it does make a good laser sight, since the red line always points at your target, lol.
If you use the borg three piece (i elect for 2 piece with an elite fleet shield) you might want to use KCB for the TB damage boost, but again thats situational. The tractor beam is such a long cooldown comparatively (in a typical stf run you may only use it 3 or 4 total times, actually) that it doesnt really add to your overall damage very much vs multiple opponents. Single target burst its pretty nice though.
See this is why I try to put out the idea that there is more than one option when I have no scientific proof that one is better than the other. There was a previous post in response to my OP (about 2-3 pages back) stating the following.
"IMHO, the above combo of KCB + Assimilated Module (= Omega Weapon Amplifier) way overshadows any meagre benefit that single turret you gave up would get from your CRF/CSV"
While people may think they know something, it may not be true. There is a lot of this in this game and in these forums. People are so sure that they know something and will be passive-aggressive and dismissive to those who disagree. (that post for example), when there is no real evidence supporting it.
That is one of the things that I like about this thread. For the most part people seem to be open to different theories and seeing which one works best for them. That is how I wrote the original post. I found what worked best for me and what worked well for a large number of people that I helped, and shared that information.
I personally subscribe to the theory that you lose A LOT of DPS in STF's when you're dead, especially with the increasing re-spawn timer, which is why I tend to go with a decent amount of healing abilities.
A good number of others subscribe to the theory that escorts are going to die, so do as much damage as you can in a short period of time.
I would say that both are valid, and both likely have comparable success. These are the things that are hard to prove either way due to so many variables. This part of it really comes down to how you like to play. It is a game after all.
Hopefully we can continue to learn by asking questions, and sharing information as we have been.
I very rarely die in an ESTF. The fleet advanced escort is chock full of healing capability and I do all I can to maximize that (TT + doffs, TSS3, TSS1, HE2, RSP 1, EPTS1). In PUGs I am usually the tank as well as the main DPS (just because i am fleet/rep geared out and usually end up taking aggro unintentionally anyway o.o oops).
Deaths tend to be memorable, and I usually know exactly why I died versus it being some OMG BORG HIT HARD moment. (like trying to go too long without popping RSP or a battery or something, trying to play hero and tank the tac cube and the gateway at the same time cause that one blasted nanite sphere got stuck and i am tunnel visioning to kill it etcetc)
So you could say I subscribe to the same mentality as far as healing oneself and staying alive goes.
To those who mention the cannon doff doesnt push the specials under global: Yes I am aware of that, but also note on my build I have CSV3 and CSV1. The doff ensures CSV3 is up more often than every 30 seconds (whenever tactical initiative is off, that makes CSV3 come up more often especially when I am switching targets and can afford the extra few seconds)
I can still chain normally, but there is a better chance I will have the harder hitting one up as well (iirc its a difference of about 10 seconds). I dont use it all the time however, I like to toss in some other hocus pocus from time to time, that fifth doff changes almost every day.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Debuffing is the key in STFs. Not just for you but also for the whole team. CSV3 gives you just +10 for your own canon attacks. Beta3 a -20 debuff increase. Beta stacking ftw.
[CrtD]x3 > [Dmg]x3 [CrtD] > [Acc]x2 [Dmg]x2
Critical severity outperforms any other weapon mod in PvE. Unless you aren't using romulan BOs, Zeropoint or other equipment that improves your crit hit rate ([CrtD] [CrtH]x2 would be you choice).
See this is why I try to put out the idea that there is more than one option when I have no scientific proof that one is better than the other. There was a previous post in response to my OP (about 2-3 pages back) stating the following.
"IMHO, the above combo of KCB + Assimilated Module (= Omega Weapon Amplifier) way overshadows any meagre benefit that single turret you gave up would get from your CRF/CSV"
While people may think they know something, it may not be true. There is a lot of this in this game and in these forums. People are so sure that they know something and will be passive-aggressive and dismissive to those who disagree. (that post for example), when there is no real evidence supporting it.
You did not prove me wrong at all, LOL. The problem here, no offense, is your short-sightedness: you *want* to see single turret be better than KCB + Assimilated Module, so you eagerly jump on the opportunity to get all gloaty when someone 'proves' it to you. So, yeah, your 'shopping' for evidence does not impress me.
I said 'short-sightedness' for good reason, because how do you fully measure the effects of Omega Weapon Amplifier?! How does one truly measure the overall benefits of +10 Current Weapon Power, +500 Current Weapon Power Resistance Rating for 3 sec, and +500 Maximum Weapon Power Resistance Rating for 3 sec?! (Similarly, how does one accurately measure the effect of the power drain stoppage by Marion?) See, it's not just your little turret you need to look at: it's your system performance as a whole.
There's only one way to be sure: setting up a ceteris paribus comparative type test, in which the only condition changing would be your turret vs. KCB + Assimilated Module. Such a test is not really possible within STO. Measuring the effects of +0.92% Critical Chance +9.2% Critical Severity is relatively easier, but it remains difficult setting up 'otherwise equal' conditions.
So, what remains is common sense and personal experience. And those, for me, are highly in favor of KCB + Assimilated Module vs. single turret + CSV.
That is one of the things that I like about this thread. For the most part people seem to be open to different theories...
You did not prove me wrong at all, LOL. The problem here, no offense, is your short-sightedness: you *want* to see single turret be better than KCB + Assimilated Module, so you eagerly jump on the opportunity to get all gloaty when someone 'proves' it to you. So, yeah, your 'shopping' for evidence does not impress me.
I said 'short-sightedness' for good reason, because how do you fully measure the effects of Omega Weapon Amplifier?! How does one truly measure the overall benefits of +10 Current Weapon Power, +500 Current Weapon Power Resistance Rating for 3 sec, and +500 Maximum Weapon Power Resistance Rating for 3 sec?! (Similarly, how does one accurately measure the effect of the power drain stoppage by Marion?) See, it's not just your little turret you need to look at: it's your system performance as a whole.
There's only one way to be sure: setting up a ceteris paribus comparative type test, in which the only condition changing would be your turret vs. KCB + Assimilated Module. Such a test is not really possible within STO. Measuring the effects of +0.92% Critical Chance +9.2% Critical Severity is relatively easier, but it remains difficult setting up 'otherwise equal' conditions.
So, what remains is common sense and personal experience. And those, for me, are highly in favor of KCB + Assimilated Module vs. single turret + CSV.
Yeah, except you yourself, it seems. :P
Do you read things? Who said anythign about proving anyone wrong? The entire point is that there is no scientific proof either way in many situations, which is why in some situations it comes down to how someone wants to play, especially when there are extremely small differences. The "!'s", and "LOL's" are extremely immature and are signatures of the troll. They discredit yourself which is disappointing because some of the information you provided does have merit and deserves to be looked into.
signed, if you see multiple high apb on a target you know that this will be fast
I agree. I've went back and forth between APB3 and CSV3 a bit. Some people find it somewhat boring, while others prefer as it is overall more efficient. That is why I included the "Attack Pattern Setup" in the OP as well as the simple setup. I think the seimple setup is best for those first starting off, while the APB setup is a bit more refined and obviously benefits from teamwork. What does suck, is going with a pug group and wasting your APB3 on a target that others arent taking advantage of it.
The "!'s", and "LOL's" are extremely immature and are signatures of the troll. They discredit yourself which is disappointing because some of the information you provided does have merit and deserves to be looked into.
Why do you turn everything into a personal attack?! Should I now call 'troll' too, and call you 'immature' as well?! So pointless.
You love your turret + CSV. Fine. And I simply said "IMHO, the above combo of KCB + Assimilated Module (= Omega Weapon Amplifier) way overshadows any meagre benefit that single turret you gave up would get from your CRF/CSV." And primarily so because you're only looking at the DPS of your single turret, and even throw it in my face -- along with a fatherly lecture -- when you found someone who said his turret did more DPS than the KCB. Whereas is it quite obvious to me that dismissing the overall benefits of Omega Weapon Amplifier is, well, odd.
The entire point is that there is no scientific proof either way in many situations, which is why in some situations it comes down to how someone wants to play, especially when there are extremely small differences.
On that we can agree, and I even said so. Thinking of proper tests to compare things is pretty hard. In most cases, as good as impossible, really. There's so many indirect effects. Like what will weapons drain resist do in combination with [Amp] Warp cores keeping that one system above 75% too? Only a dev/gamemaster could tell us the precise, cumulative effects (our logs simply aren't detailed enough).
Whereas is it quite obvious to me that dismissing the overall benefits of Omega Weapon Amplifier is, well, odd.
Since its me (at least my logic in the two piece bonus dismissal) youre referring to here, id like to add that i have never seen omega weapon amplifier put out anything significant. Either the parser cannot read it properly, or it really does amount to less than 1 percent of total damage output.
That is the main reason I dismiss it so readily. By all means point me to harder figures if those are inaccurate.
I am always tweaking builds, and have no problem switching things around if I can find cause to, know what I mean? I can only go by what i have seen/experienced.
its not like I chucked my kcb in the trash or anything, its on one of my other ships XD
Recent hard data regarding KCB vs CSV Turret (fleet antiproton accx2 dmgx2):
KCB as a fraction of total DPS was 10.1%
Turret as a fraction of total dps was 9.3% (divide by 3, 3.1% each)
Turret CSV 1 as fraction was 8.6% (divide by 3 , 2.86% each) <--- this number astounded me, youd expect it to be higher?
Turret CSV 3 as fraction was 12.3% (divide by 3, 4.1% each)
So on turret = 3.1 + 2.86 + 4.1 = 10.06
My most recent test, rounded to the nearest tenth of a percent has them tied at 10.1 (as a fraction of total DPS output over the course of two ISEs, one with KCB, one with the turret installed. Everything else remained unchanged as far as my setup went.)
So everyone is right I guess?
Im tempted to test in a more controlled environment now, say happy farmer map 1 for one, map 2 for the other.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Since its me (at least my logic in the two piece bonus dismissal) youre referring to here, id like to add that i have never seen omega weapon amplifier put out anything significant. Either the parser cannot read it properly, or it really does amount to less than 1 percent of total damage output.
Measuring the effects of Omega Weapon Amplifier, as I said elsewhere, is like trying to measure the effect of Marion: there's nothing for your parser to read properly, as its proc can only be deduced on a rather vague, global level (you were dipping less; thus, presumably, did more overall DPS).
As Omega Weapon Amplifier procs 2.5%, it stands to reason to conclude that, on average, 5 out of 200 shots fired will yield its 3 secs proc (severe Weapon Power Resistance and +10 Current Weapon Power). How that translates precisely into extra DPS will be hard to measure. A lot also depends on the rest of your build. Plasmonic Leech, for instance, will mitigate the positive effects of Omega Weapon Amplifier; and, overall, something with burst-DPS in it will likely benefit more. The benefits, however, of +0.92% Critical Chance +9.2% Critical Severity, that come with the Assimilated Module, appear rather evident to me. I am not a Rom; so, giving up that extra bit of CrtH, small as it may seem, is a big deal to me.
I can only go by what i have seen/experienced.
Me too. I usually fly a BFAW beam boats. To me, I feel a significant benefit from KCB + Assimilated Module (if, for nothing else, it helps to have a bif of Kinetic dmg handy too).
Same 25 ships, bare hulls, going all out (sitting still, as thats what happy farmer does)
Total combined DPS of three turrets (including scatter volleys 1 and 3): 1505
Total combined DPS of two turrets (including scatter volleys 1 and 3): 1086
Expected DPS needed to surmount 3rd turret (difference of the two): 418.8
Actual DPS of cutting beam: 970.48
On bare hull there is no debate, at least standing still shooting hulls the KCB is a beast. Previously claimed data was on moving targets and many with shields, I wonder how much difference there really is there. Might be worth switching back for STFs. Id still go with the turrets for PvP since youre almost never shooting bare hull there, but eh. A spade is a spade.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
One little FYI thing I'd like to note about the KCB: If you have Embassy Consoles with the [Pla] tag, the KCB gains a chance to proc a plasma fire.
I was doing some testing in one of the Tau Dewa patrols. I removed all my weapons except the KCB. I had three [pla] consoles. The KCB's tool tip displayed the 2.5% Plasma Fire proc three times.
Throughout my testing, the plasma burn flag was applied several times. Any given KCB shot might apply between one to three plasma burn stacks.
So while the KCB doesn't have it's own proc chance, it can gain some benefit from the Embassy Consoles.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Hint: get rid of that Omega Grav Amplifier. And CSV3.
For PvP: turrets drain energy and reduce your DHCs damage. 2 mines and a KCB work quite well.
And something about plasma fire... the contribution to your overall DPS is neglectable, using embassy consoles on escorts is not a good idea. Zeropoint, Plasmo, Borg, Tachyokinetic, Elachi Bioneuraland maybe a Neutronium [Turn] are the ones to choose from. Kill your enemies before they shoot back.
After reading the whole Weapon Power Resistance and +10 Current Weapon Power all I can think about is the whole argument of eps flow regulator and how they boosted dps based on recharge time of drawn weapons power. In the end it came down to the weapons instantly returning the drawn power and only during excessive draws ok power with dbb and bo3 did it make any difference.
Since most escorts run cannons which have a 1 second firing cycle and instant return of weapons power the Weapon Power Resistance will have less impact. Also when we look at the marion doff and it power resists with dem we notice that it really only prevents it from dropping past 100. Since cannons return power instantly dropping below 100 is still not really an issue. not to mention the proc happens after the shot it fired and the power is already drained.
On an aux2bat cruiser this proc, Omega Weapon Amplifier, make more of a difference when you have up to 8 beam arrays that fires a 4 second salvo each. just like the marion doff the power drain issues are reduced.
Since most power drain issues are from beam overload since it does not instant rechange and a salvo from a beam array is 4 seconds and the Omega Weapon Amplifier only lasts for 3 seconds it makes timing for beam overload almost impossible to time.
If you are like me and are using a torp up front at the moment the beam overload power issues is not there as well.
Hint: get rid of that Omega Grav Amplifier. And CSV3.
For PvP: turrets drain energy and reduce your DHCs damage. 2 mines and a KCB work quite well.
And something about plasma fire... the contribution to your overall DPS is neglectable, using embassy consoles on escorts is not a good idea. Zeropoint, Plasmo, Borg, Tachyokinetic, Elachi Bioneuraland maybe a Neutronium [Turn] are the ones to choose from. Kill your enemies before they shoot back.
I dont use plasma on that ship. I use antiproton.
Is my build not showing up properly? My console layout is:
2x Neutronium Mk XI fleet (turn)
Tachyokinetic, Assimilated, Leech
5x Ap mag regs
O_o
By the way, the KCB is very diminished vs a shielded target. It only affects bare hull well (its basically a photon torpedo turret). Tell me how exactly that translates well to PvP? You dont see many people rolling around without shield facings up.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Since its me (at least my logic in the two piece bonus dismissal) youre referring to here, id like to add that i have never seen omega weapon amplifier put out anything significant. Either the parser cannot read it properly, or it really does amount to less than 1 percent of total damage output.
That is the main reason I dismiss it so readily. By all means point me to harder figures if those are inaccurate.
I am always tweaking builds, and have no problem switching things around if I can find cause to, know what I mean? I can only go by what i have seen/experienced.
its not like I chucked my kcb in the trash or anything, its on one of my other ships XD
Recent hard data regarding KCB vs CSV Turret (fleet antiproton accx2 dmgx2):
KCB as a fraction of total DPS was 10.1%
Turret as a fraction of total dps was 9.3% (divide by 3, 3.1% each)
Turret CSV 1 as fraction was 8.6% (divide by 3 , 2.86% each) <--- this number astounded me, youd expect it to be higher?
Turret CSV 3 as fraction was 12.3% (divide by 3, 4.1% each)
So on turret = 3.1 + 2.86 + 4.1 = 10.06
My most recent test, rounded to the nearest tenth of a percent has them tied at 10.1 (as a fraction of total DPS output over the course of two ISEs, one with KCB, one with the turret installed. Everything else remained unchanged as far as my setup went.)
So everyone is right I guess?
Im tempted to test in a more controlled environment now, say happy farmer map 1 for one, map 2 for the other.
I would like to work with someone with foundry skills in order to make a test map with as controlled of an environment as possible. For the purposes of this thread, perhaps it would be possible to have borg enemies that don't fire back. I'm not sure if it's possible to put in a gate like in ISE.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are some quirks that result in varied results. I'm sure if such a map was created, there are plenty of people (myself included) that would test different builds/ships and parse the results. Anyone here experienced with the foundry?
Actually most guys from DPS-11000 or Kirks_Protege channel use Plasma or Disruptor weapons btw.
Yeah I'm personally a fan of the Romulan Plasma(/disruptor hybrid). Taking advantage of the damage bonus from the romulan reputation set is nice. Ho0wever on my escort, all of my MK XII [Borg] weapons are anti-proton.
I'm curious to see the results of some of the new weapon types in a controlled environment.
i.e. Elachi crescent, nanite disruptor, romulan plasma and piercing Tetryon.
I would like to work with someone with foundry skills in order to make a test map with as controlled of an environment as possible. For the purposes of this thread, perhaps it would be possible to have borg enemies that don't fire back. I'm not sure if it's possible to put in a gate like in ISE.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are some quirks that result in varied results. I'm sure if such a map was created, there are plenty of people (myself included) that would test different builds/ships and parse the results. Anyone here experienced with the foundry?
Actually, I'd love to see such a test! And I'm enthusiastic about someone knowledgeable who could set up a faux Foundry mission (if that's possible) to set up such an 'otherwise equal' test-bed mission.
And if it turns out your turret + CSV wins to my KCB + Assilated Module, then I'll be the first to say I was wrong.
I think it could go either way, which is why I'd like to see such a test. There were a lot of people saying that the KCB does a lot more damage than a 3rd turret, but I'm skeptical of that. However I can't say anything either way as there is no scientific proof either way.
I started a thread in the foundry section of the forums asking for assistance in creating a controlled STF-like environment. If anyone had ideas or requests that would assist in experimenting with this, the link is below. http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=12479951#post12479951
- Tactical consoles are only 26.2s, working on 30.0s
- Blue RSP Doff to be upgraded to purple.
- Considering a switch to Romulan Plasma weapons or Advanced Fleet Disruptors. Will test when resources permit.
Unlisted technical details:
Power settings standing still and unbuffed are 125/84/58/58 (bases of 125/50/25/25).
14.9% crit chance base
81.8 crit severity base
43.0 turn rate at max speed (not full impulse)
29.18 Impulse speed
48,220 Hull, 8,033 Shields
209% Power transfer (10.5/sec)
This build uses lobi store batteries. When they are used and your doffs (see below) proc, you will have power levels of 125/130/125/130 for 18.4 seconds. (The shield one is dependent on the proc however, and could drop down to 110 or so after a few seconds.)
Captain has all of the standard space traits except astrophysics. Has helmsman and inspirational leader,
Boffs are 3x romulan superior operatives (blue tactical embassy), 2 humans with leadership (sci and eng)
Doffs are 2x purple conn TT cd redux (Kuroni and Glar), 1x purple shield distrib (Vog), 1x purple Energy Weapons officer 5% chance to 20 shield power when firing energy weapons (Dicrok), 1x blue RSP duration increase (Vrolak)
The extra ensign tactical slots have beam weapon specials that are totally unneeded for this weapon configuration. (I use the same 3 boffs for PvP and just slot them differently for BO. You can however still cycle the specials, even though they do nothing for damage, since it will contribute to inspirational leader proc chance.)
This build has 30,000 burst DPS spikes, and sustained over time of nearly 10,000. It has clocked an ISE run at 9,845 DPS while doing 6.3 million total damage output.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
User "twoofnine1" said that the foundry seems to have made it so that when borg ships will only stay passive until they are attacked, which was a countermeasure to the farming missions.
He said he will see if there's something that he can put together as he originally started playing with the foundry in order to test different builds.
In the meantime, perhaps we could come to some sort of standard regarding parsing damage output data. I believe there are two popular programs for this. These being...
At any rate, I think we can just agree to pick one, any one, as long as it is being used for all tests.
N.B. While I'm at it, slightly OT, I saw an ACT screensrab posted once, wich had columns for energy drain. Mine doesn't do that. Anyone knows which plugin that is?
Comments
See this is why I try to put out the idea that there is more than one option when I have no scientific proof that one is better than the other. There was a previous post in response to my OP (about 2-3 pages back) stating the following.
"IMHO, the above combo of KCB + Assimilated Module (= Omega Weapon Amplifier) way overshadows any meagre benefit that single turret you gave up would get from your CRF/CSV"
While people may think they know something, it may not be true. There is a lot of this in this game and in these forums. People are so sure that they know something and will be passive-aggressive and dismissive to those who disagree. (that post for example), when there is no real evidence supporting it.
That is one of the things that I like about this thread. For the most part people seem to be open to different theories and seeing which one works best for them. That is how I wrote the original post. I found what worked best for me and what worked well for a large number of people that I helped, and shared that information.
I personally subscribe to the theory that you lose A LOT of DPS in STF's when you're dead, especially with the increasing re-spawn timer, which is why I tend to go with a decent amount of healing abilities.
A good number of others subscribe to the theory that escorts are going to die, so do as much damage as you can in a short period of time.
I would say that both are valid, and both likely have comparable success. These are the things that are hard to prove either way due to so many variables. This part of it really comes down to how you like to play. It is a game after all.
Hopefully we can continue to learn by asking questions, and sharing information as we have been.
Deaths tend to be memorable, and I usually know exactly why I died versus it being some OMG BORG HIT HARD moment. (like trying to go too long without popping RSP or a battery or something, trying to play hero and tank the tac cube and the gateway at the same time cause that one blasted nanite sphere got stuck and i am tunnel visioning to kill it etcetc)
So you could say I subscribe to the same mentality as far as healing oneself and staying alive goes.
To those who mention the cannon doff doesnt push the specials under global: Yes I am aware of that, but also note on my build I have CSV3 and CSV1. The doff ensures CSV3 is up more often than every 30 seconds (whenever tactical initiative is off, that makes CSV3 come up more often especially when I am switching targets and can afford the extra few seconds)
I can still chain normally, but there is a better chance I will have the harder hitting one up as well (iirc its a difference of about 10 seconds). I dont use it all the time however, I like to toss in some other hocus pocus from time to time, that fifth doff changes almost every day.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Debuffing is the key in STFs. Not just for you but also for the whole team. CSV3 gives you just +10 for your own canon attacks. Beta3 a -20 debuff increase. Beta stacking ftw.
[CrtD]x3 > [Dmg]x3 [CrtD] > [Acc]x2 [Dmg]x2
Critical severity outperforms any other weapon mod in PvE. Unless you aren't using romulan BOs, Zeropoint or other equipment that improves your crit hit rate ([CrtD] [CrtH]x2 would be you choice).
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You did not prove me wrong at all, LOL. The problem here, no offense, is your short-sightedness: you *want* to see single turret be better than KCB + Assimilated Module, so you eagerly jump on the opportunity to get all gloaty when someone 'proves' it to you. So, yeah, your 'shopping' for evidence does not impress me.
I said 'short-sightedness' for good reason, because how do you fully measure the effects of Omega Weapon Amplifier?! How does one truly measure the overall benefits of +10 Current Weapon Power, +500 Current Weapon Power Resistance Rating for 3 sec, and +500 Maximum Weapon Power Resistance Rating for 3 sec?! (Similarly, how does one accurately measure the effect of the power drain stoppage by Marion?) See, it's not just your little turret you need to look at: it's your system performance as a whole.
There's only one way to be sure: setting up a ceteris paribus comparative type test, in which the only condition changing would be your turret vs. KCB + Assimilated Module. Such a test is not really possible within STO. Measuring the effects of +0.92% Critical Chance +9.2% Critical Severity is relatively easier, but it remains difficult setting up 'otherwise equal' conditions.
So, what remains is common sense and personal experience. And those, for me, are highly in favor of KCB + Assimilated Module vs. single turret + CSV.
Yeah, except you yourself, it seems. :P
Do you read things? Who said anythign about proving anyone wrong? The entire point is that there is no scientific proof either way in many situations, which is why in some situations it comes down to how someone wants to play, especially when there are extremely small differences. The "!'s", and "LOL's" are extremely immature and are signatures of the troll. They discredit yourself which is disappointing because some of the information you provided does have merit and deserves to be looked into.
I agree. I've went back and forth between APB3 and CSV3 a bit. Some people find it somewhat boring, while others prefer as it is overall more efficient. That is why I included the "Attack Pattern Setup" in the OP as well as the simple setup. I think the seimple setup is best for those first starting off, while the APB setup is a bit more refined and obviously benefits from teamwork. What does suck, is going with a pug group and wasting your APB3 on a target that others arent taking advantage of it.
Why do you turn everything into a personal attack?! Should I now call 'troll' too, and call you 'immature' as well?! So pointless.
You love your turret + CSV. Fine. And I simply said "IMHO, the above combo of KCB + Assimilated Module (= Omega Weapon Amplifier) way overshadows any meagre benefit that single turret you gave up would get from your CRF/CSV." And primarily so because you're only looking at the DPS of your single turret, and even throw it in my face -- along with a fatherly lecture -- when you found someone who said his turret did more DPS than the KCB. Whereas is it quite obvious to me that dismissing the overall benefits of Omega Weapon Amplifier is, well, odd.
On that we can agree, and I even said so. Thinking of proper tests to compare things is pretty hard. In most cases, as good as impossible, really. There's so many indirect effects. Like what will weapons drain resist do in combination with [Amp] Warp cores keeping that one system above 75% too? Only a dev/gamemaster could tell us the precise, cumulative effects (our logs simply aren't detailed enough).
Since its me (at least my logic in the two piece bonus dismissal) youre referring to here, id like to add that i have never seen omega weapon amplifier put out anything significant. Either the parser cannot read it properly, or it really does amount to less than 1 percent of total damage output.
That is the main reason I dismiss it so readily. By all means point me to harder figures if those are inaccurate.
I am always tweaking builds, and have no problem switching things around if I can find cause to, know what I mean? I can only go by what i have seen/experienced.
its not like I chucked my kcb in the trash or anything, its on one of my other ships XD
Recent hard data regarding KCB vs CSV Turret (fleet antiproton accx2 dmgx2):
KCB as a fraction of total DPS was 10.1%
Turret as a fraction of total dps was 9.3% (divide by 3, 3.1% each)
Turret CSV 1 as fraction was 8.6% (divide by 3 , 2.86% each) <--- this number astounded me, youd expect it to be higher?
Turret CSV 3 as fraction was 12.3% (divide by 3, 4.1% each)
So on turret = 3.1 + 2.86 + 4.1 = 10.06
My most recent test, rounded to the nearest tenth of a percent has them tied at 10.1 (as a fraction of total DPS output over the course of two ISEs, one with KCB, one with the turret installed. Everything else remained unchanged as far as my setup went.)
So everyone is right I guess?
Im tempted to test in a more controlled environment now, say happy farmer map 1 for one, map 2 for the other.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Measuring the effects of Omega Weapon Amplifier, as I said elsewhere, is like trying to measure the effect of Marion: there's nothing for your parser to read properly, as its proc can only be deduced on a rather vague, global level (you were dipping less; thus, presumably, did more overall DPS).
As Omega Weapon Amplifier procs 2.5%, it stands to reason to conclude that, on average, 5 out of 200 shots fired will yield its 3 secs proc (severe Weapon Power Resistance and +10 Current Weapon Power). How that translates precisely into extra DPS will be hard to measure. A lot also depends on the rest of your build. Plasmonic Leech, for instance, will mitigate the positive effects of Omega Weapon Amplifier; and, overall, something with burst-DPS in it will likely benefit more. The benefits, however, of +0.92% Critical Chance +9.2% Critical Severity, that come with the Assimilated Module, appear rather evident to me. I am not a Rom; so, giving up that extra bit of CrtH, small as it may seem, is a big deal to me.
Me too.
With Turret:
http://i.imgur.com/jWdXP9J.jpg
With KCB:
http://i.imgur.com/0PcqQK7.jpg
Same 25 ships, bare hulls, going all out (sitting still, as thats what happy farmer does)
Total combined DPS of three turrets (including scatter volleys 1 and 3): 1505
Total combined DPS of two turrets (including scatter volleys 1 and 3): 1086
Expected DPS needed to surmount 3rd turret (difference of the two): 418.8
Actual DPS of cutting beam: 970.48
On bare hull there is no debate, at least standing still shooting hulls the KCB is a beast. Previously claimed data was on moving targets and many with shields, I wonder how much difference there really is there. Might be worth switching back for STFs. Id still go with the turrets for PvP since youre almost never shooting bare hull there, but eh. A spade is a spade.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I was doing some testing in one of the Tau Dewa patrols. I removed all my weapons except the KCB. I had three [pla] consoles. The KCB's tool tip displayed the 2.5% Plasma Fire proc three times.
Throughout my testing, the plasma burn flag was applied several times. Any given KCB shot might apply between one to three plasma burn stacks.
So while the KCB doesn't have it's own proc chance, it can gain some benefit from the Embassy Consoles.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Still more DPS with the KCB than without...
Hint: get rid of that Omega Grav Amplifier. And CSV3.
For PvP: turrets drain energy and reduce your DHCs damage. 2 mines and a KCB work quite well.
And something about plasma fire... the contribution to your overall DPS is neglectable, using embassy consoles on escorts is not a good idea. Zeropoint, Plasmo, Borg, Tachyokinetic, Elachi Bioneuraland maybe a Neutronium [Turn] are the ones to choose from. Kill your enemies before they shoot back.
STO-League.com | Weapon Damage Calculator | DPS Web Tools | STO-Center Forums
Since most escorts run cannons which have a 1 second firing cycle and instant return of weapons power the Weapon Power Resistance will have less impact. Also when we look at the marion doff and it power resists with dem we notice that it really only prevents it from dropping past 100. Since cannons return power instantly dropping below 100 is still not really an issue. not to mention the proc happens after the shot it fired and the power is already drained.
On an aux2bat cruiser this proc, Omega Weapon Amplifier, make more of a difference when you have up to 8 beam arrays that fires a 4 second salvo each. just like the marion doff the power drain issues are reduced.
Since most power drain issues are from beam overload since it does not instant rechange and a salvo from a beam array is 4 seconds and the Omega Weapon Amplifier only lasts for 3 seconds it makes timing for beam overload almost impossible to time.
If you are like me and are using a torp up front at the moment the beam overload power issues is not there as well.
I dont use plasma on that ship. I use antiproton.
Is my build not showing up properly? My console layout is:
2x Neutronium Mk XI fleet (turn)
Tachyokinetic, Assimilated, Leech
5x Ap mag regs
O_o
By the way, the KCB is very diminished vs a shielded target. It only affects bare hull well (its basically a photon torpedo turret). Tell me how exactly that translates well to PvP? You dont see many people rolling around without shield facings up.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
My remark was a reply to lordhavelock's comment about embassy consoles. You may have read it, it was right under your last post.
I know that you're using Fleet APs, hence my comment on weapon mods.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiNqwqQEVhNdHVlX3QtaGFteGZQbmVWNEZmdVVOUnc#gid=1 is a nice calculator for mods.
Actually most guys from DPS-11000 or Kirks_Protege channel use Plasma or Disruptor weapons btw.
STO-League.com | Weapon Damage Calculator | DPS Web Tools | STO-Center Forums
I would like to work with someone with foundry skills in order to make a test map with as controlled of an environment as possible. For the purposes of this thread, perhaps it would be possible to have borg enemies that don't fire back. I'm not sure if it's possible to put in a gate like in ISE.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are some quirks that result in varied results. I'm sure if such a map was created, there are plenty of people (myself included) that would test different builds/ships and parse the results. Anyone here experienced with the foundry?
Yeah I'm personally a fan of the Romulan Plasma(/disruptor hybrid). Taking advantage of the damage bonus from the romulan reputation set is nice. Ho0wever on my escort, all of my MK XII [Borg] weapons are anti-proton.
I'm curious to see the results of some of the new weapon types in a controlled environment.
i.e. Elachi crescent, nanite disruptor, romulan plasma and piercing Tetryon.
Actually, I'd love to see such a test! And I'm enthusiastic about someone knowledgeable who could set up a faux Foundry mission (if that's possible) to set up such an 'otherwise equal' test-bed mission.
And if it turns out your turret + CSV wins to my KCB + Assilated Module, then I'll be the first to say I was wrong.
I started a thread in the foundry section of the forums asking for assistance in creating a controlled STF-like environment. If anyone had ideas or requests that would assist in experimenting with this, the link is below.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=12479951#post12479951
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=dntomegaxpve_3868
Planned future changes/upgrades:
- Tactical consoles are only 26.2s, working on 30.0s
- Blue RSP Doff to be upgraded to purple.
- Considering a switch to Romulan Plasma weapons or Advanced Fleet Disruptors. Will test when resources permit.
Unlisted technical details:
Power settings standing still and unbuffed are 125/84/58/58 (bases of 125/50/25/25).
14.9% crit chance base
81.8 crit severity base
43.0 turn rate at max speed (not full impulse)
29.18 Impulse speed
48,220 Hull, 8,033 Shields
209% Power transfer (10.5/sec)
This build uses lobi store batteries. When they are used and your doffs (see below) proc, you will have power levels of 125/130/125/130 for 18.4 seconds. (The shield one is dependent on the proc however, and could drop down to 110 or so after a few seconds.)
Captain has all of the standard space traits except astrophysics. Has helmsman and inspirational leader,
Boffs are 3x romulan superior operatives (blue tactical embassy), 2 humans with leadership (sci and eng)
Doffs are 2x purple conn TT cd redux (Kuroni and Glar), 1x purple shield distrib (Vog), 1x purple Energy Weapons officer 5% chance to 20 shield power when firing energy weapons (Dicrok), 1x blue RSP duration increase (Vrolak)
The extra ensign tactical slots have beam weapon specials that are totally unneeded for this weapon configuration. (I use the same 3 boffs for PvP and just slot them differently for BO. You can however still cycle the specials, even though they do nothing for damage, since it will contribute to inspirational leader proc chance.)
This build has 30,000 burst DPS spikes, and sustained over time of nearly 10,000. It has clocked an ISE run at 9,845 DPS while doing 6.3 million total damage output.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
He said he will see if there's something that he can put together as he originally started playing with the foundry in order to test different builds.
In the meantime, perhaps we could come to some sort of standard regarding parsing damage output data. I believe there are two popular programs for this. These being...
STOICS
Advanced Combat Tracker
With STO Plugin
I also found another lesser known one that has been removed from sourceforge.
STO Combat Log Parser
It would be best to figure out which of these better suits our purposes and decide on a standard going forward.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
^^ This. Definitely. Let's ACT then!
Here's the ones from the Hilbert Guide
http://hilbertguide.com/ACT.html
Now here's a forum thread from a few months ago that shows 2 more plugins.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=584871
This is his plugin
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4u1FDN-A5MtSW9GZDgxV0J4dWM/edit?usp=sharing
Here is the "Arias" plugin
https://raw.github.com/Abydos1/act-sto-plugin/master/sto.cs
I seem to be using STO_ACT.cs (double-checked).
At any rate, I think we can just agree to pick one, any one, as long as it is being used for all tests.
N.B. While I'm at it, slightly OT, I saw an ACT screensrab posted once, wich had columns for energy drain. Mine doesn't do that. Anyone knows which plugin that is?
shawnpwe - I'm glad it is able to help.