OK a Compromise
make available (from a vendor NEVER as a drop)
a nice simple "shoot me " console
if its fitted your ship generates a high multiple of threat
if its NOT nothing changes
we could call it a "Sensor baffle" and it could work in the same way as the "ghost" weapons scanned on DS9 by the cardassians
But meanwhile I will tell you this in simple terms
IF you make sci and engineers into you personal bodyguards then they are going to start dropping mines and AOE stuff all over your Elite STF's in a desperate effort to survive
Not posted in here as it seemed to be a pretty heated topic but I had an idea spring to mind.
What if cruisers (boff power, innate ability?) had an ability that worked somewhat similar to extend shields but instead of a shield buff was a type of masking ability that reduces threat of the target ally. The idea being to lower the threat of that target and the cruiser using it would essentially draw agro from that ship. This would allow a cruiser to aid a smaller vessal by diverting attention away from it.
The power would do nothing in pvp as it's only agro managment but in pve could help keep fire of our more fragile escort cousins while they bring the pain.
Command and control does not mean you are the "boss" it means you are acting as a command node
now either stop insulting people or declare yourself as what you are
what you REALLY are
someone who has no respect for others freedoms views or feelings
I have proposed several alternate ways to increase threat that would be at the option of the Captain saving your sorry hide
not at the option of someone else
i would like to list the pros and cons of the proposed ideas here now, feel free to add anything that you feel is wrong or is missing.
Threat modifier PRO: flexability in order to switch between tanking role and support role or DD, you can switch ships without having a rudimentory skill, that basically is useless in any other class but cruiser.
CONTRA: you gimp your dmg, you need to collect another sepperate set of weapons [PVP weapons, BORG]
BOFF abilities that generate threat PRO: due to the higher tier (LtdCmdr and Cmdr) of those abilities (like aceton beam, vent warp plasma, extend shields, energy modulation) only cruiser captains would have access to them.
CONTRA: You need to sacrifice some higher tier defensive abilities, especially on cruisers with limited engi slots.
Taunt like, aggro abilitiy for any class PRO: Not interfering with any other ability or system. Would give the the grp the possibility to temporarely take aggro off the tank if he is in trouble.
Can be used in synergy with feedback pulse, and attack pattern delta...
CONTRA: Can be abused to annoy people by constantly pulling aggro away from them.
A threat generating buff with longer duration PRO: The guy with most tanky ship can activate it, has guarenteed aggro, the rest just deactivate it. If another one in the grp feels that he would be a better tank, he can just activate it, and out tank the first guy.
CONTRA: People forgetting to deactivate the ability, giving the tank a hard time pulling aggro. Resulting in the same problem we have now.
If you need to add something or correct anything, just copy the paragraph and add your comment in RED
Sollvax, you proposed this:
how about this
Engineer threat value 1
Sci threat value 1
Tac threat value 2
player is on Normal threat value -1
player is on Elite threat value +5
Rank
Ensign-lt com no modifier
commander or captain +2
RA +5
VA +10
but doesnt that mean that tactical captains would get the most aggro? meaning that the ship they are in is irrelevant. And what is normal thread value an elite thread value? I really wanted to add it to my list above, but i don't understand it. If it means that "elitist" tactical captains at VA level have a threat modifier that increases their threat by a factor of 17, then your proposal makes really no sense, and is ment as sarcasm. Is it?
Command and control does not mean you are the "boss" it means you are acting as a command node
now either stop insulting people or declare yourself as what you are
what you REALLY are
someone who has no respect for others freedoms views or feelings
I have proposed several alternate ways to increase threat that would be at the option of the Captain saving your sorry hide
not at the option of someone else
whoever said i was disputing the "command and control" (by the way its common term in mmos is crowd controll) term? im laughing at teh assumption of the cruiser part.
just because i do not fly a cruiser does not mean i cannot empathize with those that wish to fulfill a tanking role. just like how just because you fly a cruiser does not make you a noble captain worthy of your commission. honestly, "i do not want to lay my life in the service of the federation"? pathetic.
I tend to avoid face to face meetings with 13 year olds
you don't need to spend your life staring avoiding staring at mirrors yknow.
@Baudl : i think the threat values refer to difficulty setting. you like how the situation is just for normal and elite, as if threat control only applies to stfs? and how less threat is there for the lower difficulty?
I have proposed several alternate ways to increase threat that would be at the option of the Captain saving your sorry hide
not at the option of someone else
no, you did not! You proposed one thing, and i can't even make sense of it. If you could stop negging around like a child, and elaborate your idea you had before.
Otherwise, plz leave, again. You are not contributing, only discriminating.
and captains are not drones
to "lay down their lives in the service of the federation" on the orders of an elitist
If NO ONE "tanks" no one needs to get blown up
co-operate co-ordinate control the situation and keep the enemy controlled
and "crowd control" is a police term
the old (probably before you were born) MMO term was "be the monkey"
Another term was "Drawing fire"
and another was "meat shield"
none of these terms is starfleet
you want me to be a redshirt to your blue
but we are BOTH cruiser captains
so anything that makes ME a threat magnet is going to mess up your science cruiser as well
no, you did not! You proposed one thing, and i can't even make sense of it. If you could stop negging around like a child, and elaborate your idea you had before.
Otherwise, plz leave, again. You are not contributing, only discriminating.
I proposed several alternates
1 A console that acts as a threat magnet
2 threat generation by speciality rank and skill setting so a Tactical VA on Elite settings draws more fire than an engineer Captain on normal or a Sci captain on elite
3 Toggled threat control (threat plus or threat minus)
these people only want to propose things that make the life of the cruiser harder
And its not discrimination to say I DON'T Want this
and all i or you get is one vote each
But we do have a right to survive and that means not being the monkey all the time
and captains are not drones
to "lay down their lives in the service of the federation" on the orders of an elitist
If NO ONE "tanks" no one needs to get blown up
co-operate co-ordinate control the situation and keep the enemy controlled
and "crowd control" is a police term
the old (probably before you were born) MMO term was "be the monkey"
Another term was "Drawing fire"
and another was "meat shield"
none of these terms is starfleet
you want me to be a redshirt to your blue
but we are BOTH cruiser captains
so anything that makes ME a threat magnet is going to mess up your science cruiser as well
This is a GAME, we use GAMING TERMS.
Sorry we don't use the starfleet dictionary on tactical warfare in space...
And stop being so proud about your age, it's not exactly an achievement to get "old"
i play MMO's since nearly 15 years...ultima online that was, and never heard the term "be the monkey"
And 15 years is more or less the maximum of MMO games age, since there wasn't much massive multiplaying going on before UO. (over 1000 people online simultaniously i mean by that)
If you don't like our ideas, have an educated argument about it, presenting your own ideas, or just leave the topic.
2 threat generation by speciality rank and skill setting so a Tactical VA on Elite settings draws more fire than an engineer Captain on normal or a Sci captain on elite
but that would just force the Tactical VA into a tanking role, regardless of his ship. Thats exactly the thing you said you wouldn't want for you as a cruiser captain to be forced into the tanking role.
The console is an idea, but that would also mean you sacrifice another more valuable console for it, or you add [threat] to an existing console...what did you have in mind, elaborate, plz!
the threat toggle i listed, and actually i would be in favour of that too, since it is a choice left to the individual without any downside regarding his setup and ship.
This is a GAME, we use GAMING TERMS.
Sorry we don't use the starfleet dictionary on tactical warfare in space...
yes you use gaming terms that do not belong here
And stop being so proud about your age, it's not exactly an achievement to get "old"
actually it is
many of my generation didn't manage it
i play MMO's since nearly 15 years...ultima online that was, and never heard the term "be the monkey"
yes you would be ablout 12 years late for that
And 15 years is more or less the maximum of MMO games age, since there wasn't much massive multiplaying going on before UO. (over 1000 people online simultaniously i mean by that)
but multiplayer games started with "two guys on a ZX spectrum"
If you don't like our ideas, have an educated argument about it, presenting your own ideas, or just leave the topic.
So now im preparing to take alternate action (like rallying support from other cruisers for a mass fly out of STF missions if we are asked to "tank " or "suicide"
So now im preparing to take alternate action (like rallying support from other cruisers for a mass fly out of STF missions if we are asked to "tank " or "suicide"
you have either a horrid definition of the tanking role or you have flown with horrible people that claim to tank things. in mmos the tank is the guy that weathers the blows so that others don't have to. while its true that they almost always have to have the cleric's undivided attention, they are not in any way shape or form expected to just "suicide". to do so is the exact opposite of what a tank does.
Not posted in here as it seemed to be a pretty heated topic but I had an idea spring to mind.
What if cruisers (boff power, innate ability?) had an ability that worked somewhat similar to extend shields but instead of a shield buff was a type of masking ability that reduces threat of the target ally. The idea being to lower the threat of that target and the cruiser using it would essentially draw agro from that ship. This would allow a cruiser to aid a smaller vessal by diverting attention away from it.
The power would do nothing in pvp as it's only agro managment but in pve could help keep fire of our more fragile escort cousins while they bring the pain.
I like this as an ability, but actually would like to see this as a science ability. This would emulate the concept of a science vessel as a scout or electronics vessel... essentially a higher order version of jam sensors.
This way a science vessel could facilitate tanking by increasing a cruiser's agro or reducing that of an escort.
As for the risk of such abilities being used for griefing, it is not like there is any shortage of griefing options already existing, including simply doing nothing or leaving the instance.
It could be an engineering ability, or it could be a science boff ability (which would mean it could be used on any class of ship).
just because you played games with your friend 27 years ago, and made words up to describe certain situations, doesn't mean they are valid descriptions now.
and your constant braging about your advanced age, and the emphasis you put in it makes you ignorant.
Fact is, that Tank, crowd control, area of effect, damage dealer, supperter, healer, etc are all terms the community across any game is familiar.
Your own terms may be selfexplanatory in most cases, and i can follow what you mean, but why do you insist so much on them, why can't you just use the terms 99% of the community uses?
The trinity of RPG's is in this game...softened up a little, but still the most effective way to play this game. Is that so hard to accept?
Nobody forces you to play a tank, but don't tell others that just want to do that, that they can't, because it is not the moral code of starleet or some other BS.
And if those people want to discuss a way to improve tanking, why do you even care about it?
fact is, all ideas brought up here are ignored by cryptic...they have a system that functions for the most part...they won't change it.
They didn't listen to the community when they rewamped the skilltree...they won't listen in the future.
you have either a horrid definition of the tanking role or you have flown with horrible people that claim to tank things. in mmos the tank is the guy that weathers the blows so that others don't have to. while its true that they almost always have to have the cleric's undivided attention, they are not in any way shape or form expected to just "suicide". to do so is the exact opposite of what a tank does.
We tend to find that its one cruiser one carrier and 3 escorts ALL demanding we take the punishment
there is nothing we can do to repair that level of damage in the time available in most cases
tanking IS suicide with many groups
and if Anyone is going to suicide it should be the TAC escort because an escorts job is protect slower vessels
not the other way round
The Guy who takes the hits is the "Fighter" the "tac" the "warrior"
My TACTICAL captains take the hits and spread the fire about to draw it off the science and engineer guys who aren't as potent in a hard toe to toe
My favourite Tac Kailoth a klingon is experimenting with the carrier at the moment
but he can still protect and serve if he needs to
however the second someone starts to order me about I simply recall my Bops and move away from them
Because im Still getting the hang of the Carrier and it turns like a cow (or an oddy)
My Engineer captains tend to be achieving the mission objectives or keeping other people alive
and my science captains fill in as needed
but ALL of me can multi role and almost all of me fly cruisers for that purpose
but that would just force the Tactical VA into a tanking role, regardless of his ship. Thats exactly the thing you said you wouldn't want for you as a cruiser captain to be forced into the tanking role.
Id rather not force anyone into anything but if anyone is better able to tank its a tac at VA in a battle cruiser
The console is an idea, but that would also mean you sacrifice another more valuable console for it, or you add [threat] to an existing console...what did you have in mind, elaborate, plz!
I would add a console power (probably science) And maybe make it not take up a console slot (perhaps a device slot )
or Add the power to some of the other consoles (countermeasures boosts seem likely) as it would create a False threat image making your ship seem more dangerous (you could also turn it off)
This idea is still very much in the idea stage
the threat toggle i listed, and actually i would be in favour of that too, since it is a choice left to the individual without any downside regarding his setup and ship
just because you played games with your friend 27 years ago, and made words up to describe certain situations, doesn't mean they are valid descriptions now.
Wasn't me
Was some American college student I think
and your constant braging about your advanced age, and the emphasis you put in it makes you ignorant.
not advanced merely age
Fact is, that Tank, crowd control, area of effect, damage dealer, supperter, healer, etc are all terms the community across any game is familiar.
but they are not accurate or valid here
Engineers Repair
Tacs Fight
and Science THINKS
Your own terms may be selfexplanatory in most cases, and i can follow what you mean, but why do you insist so much on them, why can't you just use the terms 99% of the community uses?
because the other half (your 99% is wrong I think) are the Trekies not the gamers and mostly can't understand a word you guys are saying
The trinity of RPG's is in this game...softened up a little, but still the most effective way to play this game. Is that so hard to accept?
it never worked in the games that birthed this one and it still doesn't work now
funny thing is most of it comes from Dungeons and Dragons
The fighter , the Cleric the mage
Except here everyone thinks the cleric (engineer) should be the riot control / riot shield
which seems rather daft to me
Nobody forces you to play a tank, but don't tell others that just want to do that, that they can't, because it is not the moral code of starleet or some other BS.
this whole thread is about FORCING people to tank
I have proposed a number of options that would allow ANY type to tank if they really want
to
And if those people want to discuss a way to improve tanking, why do you even care about it?
Because Most of the suggestions are aimed at making any and all of us who command cruisers with beams into threat magnets
based on giving EVERY weapon a threat value and beams much higher than cannons
fact is, all ideas brought up here are ignored by cryptic...they have a system that functions for the most part...they won't change it.
I pray you are right
They didn't listen to the community when they rewamped the skilltree...they won't listen in the future.
i still think threat control should control threat (in both directions)
not attract it
We tend to find that its one cruiser one carrier and 3 escorts ALL demanding we take the punishment
there is nothing we can do to repair that level of damage in the time available in most cases
tanking IS suicide with many groups
and if Anyone is going to suicide it should be the TAC escort because an escorts job is protect slower vessels
not the other way round
The Guy who takes the hits is the "Fighter" the "tac" the "warrior"
My TACTICAL captains take the hits and spread the fire about to draw it off the science and engineer guys who aren't as potent in a hard toe to toe
My favourite Tac Kailoth a klingon is experimenting with the carrier at the moment
but he can still protect and serve if he needs to
however the second someone starts to order me about I simply recall my Bops and move away from them
Because im Still getting the hang of the Carrier and it turns like a cow (or an oddy)
My Engineer captains tend to be achieving the mission objectives or keeping other people alive
and my science captains fill in as needed
but ALL of me can multi role and almost all of me fly cruisers for that purpose
what are you smoking? the captain's ability is a lot less in the equation as much as the ship is. a tactical captain in an escort is not the tank, and definitely not the stereotypical warrior role. fact of the matter is, a tactical captain, being in the ship with the highest dps potential as well as maneuverability, is more in line with the thief/rogue class in other mmos. they get in, do their damage, then get out. heck, the added fragility of the escort ship in comparison to the other ship types would make them more in line with the offensive mage archetype were it not for the maneuverability.
Id rather not force anyone into anything but if anyone is better able to tank its a tac at VA in a battle cruiser
yeah sure, an engi in a cruiser can't tank better? rsf and mw on top of engineer and certain science boff skills would like to disagree with that. hell, throw in eps power transfer too, since using that gives an engy in a cruiser both maneuverability defensive bonuses as well as shield power.
The trinity of RPG's is in this game...softened up a little, but still the most effective way to play this game. Is that so hard to accept?.
Actually it is hard to accept because while it may seem like a given to you, it may not to everyone else. case in point, those who suggest that cruisers and science vessels are under-powered, or at least that the additional dps of an escort would be more useful.
This may shock you but there are RPGs where the trinity does not apply. In City of Heroes, healers are as rare as they are in comics. DPS classes are supported by powerful debuffers as well as crowd control. Tanking is likewise less common. Healers and tanks are useful, but are not necessary.
In Dungeons and Dragons online, healing is primarily vial potions or other expendables. Clerics are often in dps or crowd control roles rather than in healing roles. This emulates the original PnP game where priests have limited heals per day and thus healing is much more situational than a constant role.
Moreover, Cruisers in STO can be tanks or they can be healers, but neither role really fits the IP well so such roles are likely resisted at least in part.
Saying 'three classes therefore traditional trinity' doesn't really follow, nor does it need to. As it stands, the whole suggestion is ironic, in that Escorts in STO are completely misnamed. They don't escort anything. They are being escorted by cruisers.
And science vessels are left with a lot of abilities we saw cruisers perform all the time in the IP... pretty much everything in the 'sleezy trick' category... which of course are kept relatively weak since they are very difficult abilities to balance without breaking the game.
Sorry for the rant... it is a bit of a sore subject for me....
If additional agro generation (or reduction) is a boff ability, it would give players more flexibility to find a path that best suits what they want to do with the ship, regardless of their class or the ship's class.
those two paragraphs are so ridiculously contradictory it almost hurts. you say that you are perfectly fine with the threat control skill because players can opt to not get them, yet you say you dislike the notion of having another modifier added to the pool of available modifiers weapons can get. these said weapons, by the way, can be ignored and all in all just not be used by people that do not want them.
Yes, I am perfectly fine with Starship Threat Control.
The only reason I said I didn't like the modifier was because they'd be cheap on the exchange, and people who have no business using them would use them because they would be so inexpensive. Heck, people already spec into threat who have no business doing so, lol
make available (from a vendor NEVER as a drop)
a nice simple "shoot me " console
Building on that, mustrumridcully0 mentioned a small resistance buff if the weapons are used, similar to the skill itself. It would have to be a very small buff, but might make it more worthwhile for a tank to use them Vs other stats.
Those two ideas together would resolve any reservations I had about the [threat] stat on weapons. (exchange prices and effectively becoming blue (rare) quality).
you make it sound like someone will hold a person at gunpoint to buy these weapons when we both know that isn't true.
I actually said nothing of the sort. What I said was "I'd be worried rookie captains would buy them, just cause they're the cheapest. Even on escorts."
That in no way insinuates force, much less "at gunpoint".
I'm well aware that, those who don't want to use them wouldn't have to.
Now that I've clarified that, I'm off to bed.
Night.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
Id rather not force anyone into anything but if anyone is better able to tank its a tac at VA in a battle cruiser
wow...you do realise that this is painfully wrong...a tactical captain has no defensive abilities, while an engineer has mostly defensive abilities. That makes the engi the ideal tank captain.
and at VA comes without question...no reason to discuss low level gameplay.
wow, you really know nothing about this game. and battle cruiser is not a description i can relate any ship to currently ingame. Any cruiser the klingons have is a battle cruiser...
there are assault cruiser, star cruiser, galaxy r and x, oddy. Use the correct terms plz.
and by pure numbers...the oddy is the best tank, the sci version in my opinion.
the answer you gave, is a perfect example how your argumentation is flawed so far at every subject.
You think that something is right, when infact it's utterly nonsense. And ontop you use words that only you understand, and is hard to follow for others.
If you genuinly think a tactical captain is the best tanking class ingame, you really need to start to listen to others and throw your ideas overboard.
what are you smoking? the captain's ability is a lot less in the equation as much as the ship is. a tactical captain in an escort is not the tank, and definitely not the stereotypical warrior role
no he is the Fighter pilot (an expendible Resource of the Fleet) the Escort ESCORTS
.
fact of the matter is, a tactical captain, being in the ship with the highest dps potential as well as maneuverability, is more in line with the thief/rogue class in other mmos. they get in, do their damage, then get out.
A tactical captain in a decently armed cruiser can do both jobs if he wishes
heck, the added fragility of the escort ship in comparison to the other ship types would make them more in line with the offensive mage archetype were it not for the maneuverability.
You have a good point
this is why escorts should be only flown by low ranked officers and treated as a mobile strike wing
once you hit captain you should get something with a bit of sustainability
rather not force anyone into anything but if anyone is better able to tank its a tac at VA in a battle cruiser
yeah sure, an engi in a cruiser can't tank better? rsf and mw on top of engineer and certain science boff skills would like to disagree with that. hell, throw in eps power transfer too, since using that gives an engy in a cruiser both maneuverability defensive bonuses as well as shield power.
Maybe you are playing tacs differently to me
the Tacs Duty / Role in my view is the protect the others
The same ship with the same boffs and rig can crewed by a tac force strike (what you call alpha strike) sustain fire (what you call tanking) And fly rings if need be
Or by an engineer it can multi role nearly as well (its not so good on the force strikes)
A sci captain can mess people up pretty badly as well
an escort with the same rig can be flown by any captain (I know a sci who flys escorts and has a tactic of flying in hard cannons blazing then dropping a gravity well behind him)
wow...you do realise that this is painfully wrong...a tactical captain has no defensive abilities, while an engineer has mostly defensive abilities. That makes the engi the ideal tank captain.
and at VA comes without question...no reason to discuss low level gameplay.
your bridge officers ARE your defences
a Battle cruiser (example the larger Klingon ships) equipped with the right Engineering officers and a tac captain can take a LOT of punishment and survive a long long time
wow, you really know nothing about this game. and battle cruiser is not a description i can relate any ship to currently ingame. Any cruiser the klingons have is a battle cruiser...
there are assault cruiser, star cruiser, galaxy r and x, oddy. Use the correct terms plz.
and by pure numbers...the oddy is the best tank, the sci version in my opinion.
The Klingons use the term battle cruiser
And any vessel designated a battle cruiser should be a Tac choice first
the answer you gave, is a perfect example how your argumentation is flawed so far at every subject.
You think that something is right, when infact it's utterly nonsense. And ontop you use words that only you understand, and is hard to follow for others.
so do you
Look the nebula is a Cruiser
and some people here don't know that
A tac in a big powerful cruiser (terms for the gamer here )"big shooty ship"
can handle the job better than his Engineer friend
If you genuinly think a tactical captain is the best tanking class ingame, you really need to start to listen to others and throw your ideas overboard.
It can be in some roles
always "IN SOME ROLES"
Escorts are however glass jawed giant fighters
and frankly should only EVER operate in support of cruisers or carriers
Actually it is hard to accept because while it may seem like a given to you, it may not to everyone else. case in point, those who suggest that cruisers and science vessels are under-powered, or at least that the additional dps of an escort would be more useful.
This may shock you but there are RPGs where the trinity does not apply. In City of Heroes, healers are as rare as they are in comics. DPS classes are supported by powerful debuffers as well as crowd control. Tanking is likewise less common. Healers and tanks are useful, but are not necessary.
In Dungeons and Dragons online, healing is primarily vial potions or other expendables. Clerics are often in dps or crowd control roles rather than in healing roles. This emulates the original PnP game where priests have limited heals per day and thus healing is much more situational than a constant role.
Moreover, Cruisers in STO can be tanks or they can be healers, but neither role really fits the IP well so such roles are likely resisted at least in part.
Saying 'three classes therefore traditional trinity' doesn't really follow, nor does it need to. As it stands, the whole suggestion is ironic, in that Escorts in STO are completely misnamed. They don't escort anything. They are being escorted by cruisers.
And science vessels are left with a lot of abilities we saw cruisers perform all the time in the IP... pretty much everything in the 'sleezy trick' category... which of course are kept relatively weak since they are very difficult abilities to balance without breaking the game.
Sorry for the rant... it is a bit of a sore subject for me....
If additional agro generation (or reduction) is a boff ability, it would give players more flexibility to find a path that best suits what they want to do with the ship, regardless of their class or the ship's class.
A console would work similarly.
that is correct of course, and thats why i added, "softed up"
but i just happen to have played my cleric 3 month ago in DDO, and they really turned it around since launch. before healing was mainly flasks and potion, but now the cleric was made the healer of a grp, and the content added in the meantime demands one person to be the healer and one to be the tank. Alos several additional heals were added per day.
So for gameplay reasons it was shifted towards a trinity system even in DDO.
also the 3 classes are designed for trinity...if you look at the abilities each class has. It is just a little distorted, since the healer is the best tank in ground combat, and the tank is the better healer in space combat...combined into one.
the choice of ship kind of determines what role you take more than your class, but thats just blurring the borders of the classes, not equalizing them.
an example: a sci in an escort, loses much of his support abilities he woud have in a sci vessel, but gains much more dmg output, while still having his inherent sci abilities to support the grp.
the trinity exists in STO, but not in a traditional way...it is blured, but still destinct enough to call it a trinity.
another example for an RPG that abandoned the trinity system is Vindictus. while there are some that have healing and tanking abilities, none of them are direct or force them into your gameplay.
Maybe you are playing tacs differently to me
the Tacs Duty / Role in my view is the protect the others
The same ship with the same boffs and rig can crewed by a tac force strike (what you call alpha strike) sustain fire (what you call tanking) And fly rings if need be
Or by an engineer it can multi role nearly as well (its not so good on the force strikes)
A sci captain can mess people up pretty badly as well
an escort with the same rig can be flown by any captain (I know a sci who flys escorts and has a tactic of flying in hard cannons blazing then dropping a gravity well behind him)
yeah no. this game isn't based on your views though. as such the roles are more in line with what cryptic has designed. given how ALL the skills they gave tactical captains and hell, even tactical boffs are all geared towards inflicting damage, it is a far FAR cry from your view of "protect the others". face it, the only way they would end up "protecting others" is if they shoot the bad guys before the bad guys shot these so-called others.
also, nice lie there at the end by the way. everyone know's that a gravity well is a forward facing attack. the only ways to "drop a gravity well behind him" is if he were to turn around and fire it or to cast it as he does his approach run. in either case its not really dropping it behind him is it?
another example for an RPG that abandoned the trinity system is Vindictus. while there are some that have healing and tanking abilities, none of them are direct or force them into your gameplay.
a man after my own heart. while the trinity isn't always easy to pull off, it is very true in that game. no other class can heal other party members, only Evie can. Lann's slipdashing, invincibility frames, and overall output in "spin2win" mode puts him directly in the thief/rogue archetype, and Fiona's blocking abilities and Karoks clash distinctly put them in the tanking roles. it's not quite easy to tank in that game due to how aggro gets generated, but there are ways to do so. for example, mashing sit causes the larger bosses to aggro on you. certain bosses end up aggroing instantly the moment you start building a campfire, and even more still, some like Titan rage on someone that is spamming phoenix feathers. so tanking and pulling aggro is doable, its maintaining it that makes it hard to distinctly point out the existance of a trinity in that game.
Comments
make available (from a vendor NEVER as a drop)
a nice simple "shoot me " console
if its fitted your ship generates a high multiple of threat
if its NOT nothing changes
we could call it a "Sensor baffle" and it could work in the same way as the "ghost" weapons scanned on DS9 by the cardassians
But meanwhile I will tell you this in simple terms
IF you make sci and engineers into you personal bodyguards then they are going to start dropping mines and AOE stuff all over your Elite STF's in a desperate effort to survive
and you will NEVER get an optional again in a PUG
A toggle or push-button power would be more useful to people that like to switch ship types.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
What if cruisers (boff power, innate ability?) had an ability that worked somewhat similar to extend shields but instead of a shield buff was a type of masking ability that reduces threat of the target ally. The idea being to lower the threat of that target and the cruiser using it would essentially draw agro from that ship. This would allow a cruiser to aid a smaller vessal by diverting attention away from it.
The power would do nothing in pvp as it's only agro managment but in pve could help keep fire of our more fragile escort cousins while they bring the pain.
defalus
nice of you to assume that i am a "command and control cruiser" when i'm a science captain that flies a nebula.
again, keep making stupid assumptions. all it does is make an TRIBBLE out of YOU, not ME.
Command and control does not mean you are the "boss" it means you are acting as a command node
now either stop insulting people or declare yourself as what you are
what you REALLY are
someone who has no respect for others freedoms views or feelings
I have proposed several alternate ways to increase threat that would be at the option of the Captain saving your sorry hide
not at the option of someone else
Threat modifier PRO: flexability in order to switch between tanking role and support role or DD, you can switch ships without having a rudimentory skill, that basically is useless in any other class but cruiser.
CONTRA: you gimp your dmg, you need to collect another sepperate set of weapons [PVP weapons, BORG]
BOFF abilities that generate threat PRO: due to the higher tier (LtdCmdr and Cmdr) of those abilities (like aceton beam, vent warp plasma, extend shields, energy modulation) only cruiser captains would have access to them.
CONTRA: You need to sacrifice some higher tier defensive abilities, especially on cruisers with limited engi slots.
Taunt like, aggro abilitiy for any class PRO: Not interfering with any other ability or system. Would give the the grp the possibility to temporarely take aggro off the tank if he is in trouble.
Can be used in synergy with feedback pulse, and attack pattern delta...
CONTRA: Can be abused to annoy people by constantly pulling aggro away from them.
A threat generating buff with longer duration PRO: The guy with most tanky ship can activate it, has guarenteed aggro, the rest just deactivate it. If another one in the grp feels that he would be a better tank, he can just activate it, and out tank the first guy.
CONTRA: People forgetting to deactivate the ability, giving the tank a hard time pulling aggro. Resulting in the same problem we have now.
If you need to add something or correct anything, just copy the paragraph and add your comment in RED
Sollvax, you proposed this:
but doesnt that mean that tactical captains would get the most aggro? meaning that the ship they are in is irrelevant. And what is normal thread value an elite thread value? I really wanted to add it to my list above, but i don't understand it. If it means that "elitist" tactical captains at VA level have a threat modifier that increases their threat by a factor of 17, then your proposal makes really no sense, and is ment as sarcasm. Is it?
Y'all want to just get a room and spare the rest of us?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
whoever said i was disputing the "command and control" (by the way its common term in mmos is crowd controll) term? im laughing at teh assumption of the cruiser part.
just because i do not fly a cruiser does not mean i cannot empathize with those that wish to fulfill a tanking role. just like how just because you fly a cruiser does not make you a noble captain worthy of your commission. honestly, "i do not want to lay my life in the service of the federation"? pathetic.
you don't need to spend your life staring avoiding staring at mirrors yknow.
@Baudl : i think the threat values refer to difficulty setting. you like how the situation is just for normal and elite, as if threat control only applies to stfs? and how less threat is there for the lower difficulty?
no, you did not! You proposed one thing, and i can't even make sense of it. If you could stop negging around like a child, and elaborate your idea you had before.
Otherwise, plz leave, again. You are not contributing, only discriminating.
and captains are not drones
to "lay down their lives in the service of the federation" on the orders of an elitist
If NO ONE "tanks" no one needs to get blown up
co-operate co-ordinate control the situation and keep the enemy controlled
and "crowd control" is a police term
the old (probably before you were born) MMO term was "be the monkey"
Another term was "Drawing fire"
and another was "meat shield"
none of these terms is starfleet
you want me to be a redshirt to your blue
but we are BOTH cruiser captains
so anything that makes ME a threat magnet is going to mess up your science cruiser as well
I proposed several alternates
1 A console that acts as a threat magnet
2 threat generation by speciality rank and skill setting so a Tactical VA on Elite settings draws more fire than an engineer Captain on normal or a Sci captain on elite
3 Toggled threat control (threat plus or threat minus)
these people only want to propose things that make the life of the cruiser harder
And its not discrimination to say I DON'T Want this
and all i or you get is one vote each
But we do have a right to survive and that means not being the monkey all the time
This is a GAME, we use GAMING TERMS.
Sorry we don't use the starfleet dictionary on tactical warfare in space...
And stop being so proud about your age, it's not exactly an achievement to get "old"
i play MMO's since nearly 15 years...ultima online that was, and never heard the term "be the monkey"
And 15 years is more or less the maximum of MMO games age, since there wasn't much massive multiplaying going on before UO. (over 1000 people online simultaniously i mean by that)
If you don't like our ideas, have an educated argument about it, presenting your own ideas, or just leave the topic.
funny then that the nebula is listed under science vessels.
but that would just force the Tactical VA into a tanking role, regardless of his ship. Thats exactly the thing you said you wouldn't want for you as a cruiser captain to be forced into the tanking role.
The console is an idea, but that would also mean you sacrifice another more valuable console for it, or you add [threat] to an existing console...what did you have in mind, elaborate, plz!
the threat toggle i listed, and actually i would be in favour of that too, since it is a choice left to the individual without any downside regarding his setup and ship.
yes you use gaming terms that do not belong here
actually it is
many of my generation didn't manage it
yes you would be ablout 12 years late for that
but multiplayer games started with "two guys on a ZX spectrum"
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
So now im preparing to take alternate action (like rallying support from other cruisers for a mass fly out of STF missions if we are asked to "tank " or "suicide"
you have either a horrid definition of the tanking role or you have flown with horrible people that claim to tank things. in mmos the tank is the guy that weathers the blows so that others don't have to. while its true that they almost always have to have the cleric's undivided attention, they are not in any way shape or form expected to just "suicide". to do so is the exact opposite of what a tank does.
I like this as an ability, but actually would like to see this as a science ability. This would emulate the concept of a science vessel as a scout or electronics vessel... essentially a higher order version of jam sensors.
This way a science vessel could facilitate tanking by increasing a cruiser's agro or reducing that of an escort.
As for the risk of such abilities being used for griefing, it is not like there is any shortage of griefing options already existing, including simply doing nothing or leaving the instance.
It could be an engineering ability, or it could be a science boff ability (which would mean it could be used on any class of ship).
and your constant braging about your advanced age, and the emphasis you put in it makes you ignorant.
Fact is, that Tank, crowd control, area of effect, damage dealer, supperter, healer, etc are all terms the community across any game is familiar.
Your own terms may be selfexplanatory in most cases, and i can follow what you mean, but why do you insist so much on them, why can't you just use the terms 99% of the community uses?
The trinity of RPG's is in this game...softened up a little, but still the most effective way to play this game. Is that so hard to accept?
Nobody forces you to play a tank, but don't tell others that just want to do that, that they can't, because it is not the moral code of starleet or some other BS.
And if those people want to discuss a way to improve tanking, why do you even care about it?
fact is, all ideas brought up here are ignored by cryptic...they have a system that functions for the most part...they won't change it.
They didn't listen to the community when they rewamped the skilltree...they won't listen in the future.
We tend to find that its one cruiser one carrier and 3 escorts ALL demanding we take the punishment
there is nothing we can do to repair that level of damage in the time available in most cases
tanking IS suicide with many groups
and if Anyone is going to suicide it should be the TAC escort because an escorts job is protect slower vessels
not the other way round
The Guy who takes the hits is the "Fighter" the "tac" the "warrior"
My TACTICAL captains take the hits and spread the fire about to draw it off the science and engineer guys who aren't as potent in a hard toe to toe
My favourite Tac Kailoth a klingon is experimenting with the carrier at the moment
but he can still protect and serve if he needs to
however the second someone starts to order me about I simply recall my Bops and move away from them
Because im Still getting the hang of the Carrier and it turns like a cow (or an oddy)
My Engineer captains tend to be achieving the mission objectives or keeping other people alive
and my science captains fill in as needed
but ALL of me can multi role and almost all of me fly cruisers for that purpose
Id rather not force anyone into anything but if anyone is better able to tank its a tac at VA in a battle cruiser
I would add a console power (probably science) And maybe make it not take up a console slot (perhaps a device slot )
or Add the power to some of the other consoles (countermeasures boosts seem likely) as it would create a False threat image making your ship seem more dangerous (you could also turn it off)
This idea is still very much in the idea stage
its one of the better ideas I think
Wasn't me
Was some American college student I think
not advanced merely age
but they are not accurate or valid here
Engineers Repair
Tacs Fight
and Science THINKS
because the other half (your 99% is wrong I think) are the Trekies not the gamers and mostly can't understand a word you guys are saying
it never worked in the games that birthed this one and it still doesn't work now
funny thing is most of it comes from Dungeons and Dragons
The fighter , the Cleric the mage
Except here everyone thinks the cleric (engineer) should be the riot control / riot shield
which seems rather daft to me
this whole thread is about FORCING people to tank
I have proposed a number of options that would allow ANY type to tank if they really want
to
Because Most of the suggestions are aimed at making any and all of us who command cruisers with beams into threat magnets
based on giving EVERY weapon a threat value and beams much higher than cannons
I pray you are right
i still think threat control should control threat (in both directions)
not attract it
what are you smoking? the captain's ability is a lot less in the equation as much as the ship is. a tactical captain in an escort is not the tank, and definitely not the stereotypical warrior role. fact of the matter is, a tactical captain, being in the ship with the highest dps potential as well as maneuverability, is more in line with the thief/rogue class in other mmos. they get in, do their damage, then get out. heck, the added fragility of the escort ship in comparison to the other ship types would make them more in line with the offensive mage archetype were it not for the maneuverability.
also
yeah sure, an engi in a cruiser can't tank better? rsf and mw on top of engineer and certain science boff skills would like to disagree with that. hell, throw in eps power transfer too, since using that gives an engy in a cruiser both maneuverability defensive bonuses as well as shield power.
Actually it is hard to accept because while it may seem like a given to you, it may not to everyone else. case in point, those who suggest that cruisers and science vessels are under-powered, or at least that the additional dps of an escort would be more useful.
This may shock you but there are RPGs where the trinity does not apply. In City of Heroes, healers are as rare as they are in comics. DPS classes are supported by powerful debuffers as well as crowd control. Tanking is likewise less common. Healers and tanks are useful, but are not necessary.
In Dungeons and Dragons online, healing is primarily vial potions or other expendables. Clerics are often in dps or crowd control roles rather than in healing roles. This emulates the original PnP game where priests have limited heals per day and thus healing is much more situational than a constant role.
Moreover, Cruisers in STO can be tanks or they can be healers, but neither role really fits the IP well so such roles are likely resisted at least in part.
Saying 'three classes therefore traditional trinity' doesn't really follow, nor does it need to. As it stands, the whole suggestion is ironic, in that Escorts in STO are completely misnamed. They don't escort anything. They are being escorted by cruisers.
And science vessels are left with a lot of abilities we saw cruisers perform all the time in the IP... pretty much everything in the 'sleezy trick' category... which of course are kept relatively weak since they are very difficult abilities to balance without breaking the game.
Sorry for the rant... it is a bit of a sore subject for me....
If additional agro generation (or reduction) is a boff ability, it would give players more flexibility to find a path that best suits what they want to do with the ship, regardless of their class or the ship's class.
A console would work similarly.
Yes, I am perfectly fine with Starship Threat Control.
The only reason I said I didn't like the modifier was because they'd be cheap on the exchange, and people who have no business using them would use them because they would be so inexpensive. Heck, people already spec into threat who have no business doing so, lol
This would effectively solve that issue:
Building on that, mustrumridcully0 mentioned a small resistance buff if the weapons are used, similar to the skill itself. It would have to be a very small buff, but might make it more worthwhile for a tank to use them Vs other stats.
Those two ideas together would resolve any reservations I had about the [threat] stat on weapons. (exchange prices and effectively becoming blue (rare) quality).
I actually said nothing of the sort. What I said was "I'd be worried rookie captains would buy them, just cause they're the cheapest. Even on escorts."
That in no way insinuates force, much less "at gunpoint".
I'm well aware that, those who don't want to use them wouldn't have to.
Now that I've clarified that, I'm off to bed.
Night.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
wow...you do realise that this is painfully wrong...a tactical captain has no defensive abilities, while an engineer has mostly defensive abilities. That makes the engi the ideal tank captain.
and at VA comes without question...no reason to discuss low level gameplay.
wow, you really know nothing about this game. and battle cruiser is not a description i can relate any ship to currently ingame. Any cruiser the klingons have is a battle cruiser...
there are assault cruiser, star cruiser, galaxy r and x, oddy. Use the correct terms plz.
and by pure numbers...the oddy is the best tank, the sci version in my opinion.
the answer you gave, is a perfect example how your argumentation is flawed so far at every subject.
You think that something is right, when infact it's utterly nonsense. And ontop you use words that only you understand, and is hard to follow for others.
If you genuinly think a tactical captain is the best tanking class ingame, you really need to start to listen to others and throw your ideas overboard.
no he is the Fighter pilot (an expendible Resource of the Fleet) the Escort ESCORTS
.
A tactical captain in a decently armed cruiser can do both jobs if he wishes
You have a good point
this is why escorts should be only flown by low ranked officers and treated as a mobile strike wing
once you hit captain you should get something with a bit of sustainability
Maybe you are playing tacs differently to me
the Tacs Duty / Role in my view is the protect the others
The same ship with the same boffs and rig can crewed by a tac force strike (what you call alpha strike) sustain fire (what you call tanking) And fly rings if need be
Or by an engineer it can multi role nearly as well (its not so good on the force strikes)
A sci captain can mess people up pretty badly as well
an escort with the same rig can be flown by any captain (I know a sci who flys escorts and has a tactic of flying in hard cannons blazing then dropping a gravity well behind him)
your bridge officers ARE your defences
a Battle cruiser (example the larger Klingon ships) equipped with the right Engineering officers and a tac captain can take a LOT of punishment and survive a long long time
The Klingons use the term battle cruiser
And any vessel designated a battle cruiser should be a Tac choice first
so do you
Look the nebula is a Cruiser
and some people here don't know that
A tac in a big powerful cruiser (terms for the gamer here )"big shooty ship"
can handle the job better than his Engineer friend
It can be in some roles
always "IN SOME ROLES"
Escorts are however glass jawed giant fighters
and frankly should only EVER operate in support of cruisers or carriers
that is correct of course, and thats why i added, "softed up"
but i just happen to have played my cleric 3 month ago in DDO, and they really turned it around since launch. before healing was mainly flasks and potion, but now the cleric was made the healer of a grp, and the content added in the meantime demands one person to be the healer and one to be the tank. Alos several additional heals were added per day.
So for gameplay reasons it was shifted towards a trinity system even in DDO.
also the 3 classes are designed for trinity...if you look at the abilities each class has. It is just a little distorted, since the healer is the best tank in ground combat, and the tank is the better healer in space combat...combined into one.
the choice of ship kind of determines what role you take more than your class, but thats just blurring the borders of the classes, not equalizing them.
an example: a sci in an escort, loses much of his support abilities he woud have in a sci vessel, but gains much more dmg output, while still having his inherent sci abilities to support the grp.
the trinity exists in STO, but not in a traditional way...it is blured, but still destinct enough to call it a trinity.
another example for an RPG that abandoned the trinity system is Vindictus. while there are some that have healing and tanking abilities, none of them are direct or force them into your gameplay.
yeah no. this game isn't based on your views though. as such the roles are more in line with what cryptic has designed. given how ALL the skills they gave tactical captains and hell, even tactical boffs are all geared towards inflicting damage, it is a far FAR cry from your view of "protect the others". face it, the only way they would end up "protecting others" is if they shoot the bad guys before the bad guys shot these so-called others.
also, nice lie there at the end by the way. everyone know's that a gravity well is a forward facing attack. the only ways to "drop a gravity well behind him" is if he were to turn around and fire it or to cast it as he does his approach run. in either case its not really dropping it behind him is it?
also
a man after my own heart. while the trinity isn't always easy to pull off, it is very true in that game. no other class can heal other party members, only Evie can. Lann's slipdashing, invincibility frames, and overall output in "spin2win" mode puts him directly in the thief/rogue archetype, and Fiona's blocking abilities and Karoks clash distinctly put them in the tanking roles. it's not quite easy to tank in that game due to how aggro gets generated, but there are ways to do so. for example, mashing sit causes the larger bosses to aggro on you. certain bosses end up aggroing instantly the moment you start building a campfire, and even more still, some like Titan rage on someone that is spamming phoenix feathers. so tanking and pulling aggro is doable, its maintaining it that makes it hard to distinctly point out the existance of a trinity in that game.