Seriously, Sollvax trolls in all threads s/he's in, ignore.
Back to the topic at hand: I've argued the same in the past, though I think the Threat Mod should be tied to ship type*, not weapon.
It's a bit too restrictive to tie it to weapon - what of non-Cruisers using Arrays? Or Cruiser builds that use few to no arrays?
They might be rare or niche, but no need to punish those builds if they can work.
*or even specific ships; for instance the offensive Cruisers could have a lower Threat Mod than the tanky tank of tankiness Cruisers.
Here, tentative list for T5 Threat mods (formula derived from BOFF layout and max Hull):
This mod would apply multiplicatively to any action generating Threat.
Bonus effect: gives a niche back to the Galaxy-R: having the most Threat Generation.
The only thing that proves this is parsing your combat logs.
And I've run a lot of logs.
OK, I suppose I walked into that / deserved that kind of a response with my wording. I am quite aware that there's a context to it that's gonna leave escorts far ahead and more offensive-able setups a step ahead -- given non-dumb players, of course. 'cause yeah I PuG enough to see some of the worst.
I suppose, realistically, all I should mean is that I don't feel like bringing a cruiser to do some DPS instead of my escort is a waste in ESTFs, especially since I do like to support in a cruiser as well. The latter is not so easy with escort/BoP layouts.
While I am sure running a log parser would be quite humbling, I merely based that off of observations, especially relative to other ships in STFs alongside me and how they appeared to be doing. So the scientist in me is angry at myself for speaking anecdotally, but the gamer in me doesn't care and was just making conversation :P.
Sheesh and now I feel like I'm coming across as if I'm trying to impress you or make sure you're OK with what I'm posting, and wow that's silly.
I think the point is that I'm more or less on the same page as you.
that's neat and all, though that deters from those that want nothing to do with tanking. i never thought to restrict a modifier to specific weapons, just restrict it to weapons in general. that means everything energy and even projectile can have [thrt] put on it, making people choose if they value damage or accuracy or critical severity over generating agro.
this way if a cruiser captain wants to be a tank and finds a hard time pulling agro from escorts that appear all too fragile, he can just pile on and equip 8 weapons with threat modifiers and actually be able to draw and keep enemy fire on himself.
Seriously, Sollvax trolls in all threads s/he's in, ignore.
Back to the topic at hand: I've argued the same in the past, though I think the Threat Mod should be tied to ship type*, not weapon.
It's a bit too restrictive to tie it to weapon - what of non-Cruisers using Arrays? Or Cruiser builds that use few to no arrays?
They might be rare or niche, but no need to punish those builds if they can work.
*or even specific ships; for instance the offensive Cruisers could have a lower Threat Mod than the tanky tank of tankiness Cruisers.
Here, tentative list for T5 Threat mods (formula derived from BOFF layout and max Hull):
This mod would apply multiplicatively to any action generating Threat.
Bonus effect: gives a niche back to the Galaxy-R: having the most Threat Generation.
Now who is trolling
how about this
Engineer threat value 1
Sci threat value 1
Tac threat value 2
player is on Normal threat value -1
player is on Elite threat value +5
Rank
Ensign-lt com no modifier
commander or captain +2
RA +5
VA +10
you dare call people trolls after the abuse and TRIBBLE you and others dish out to the rest of us??
that's neat and all, though that deters from those that want nothing to do with tanking. i never thought to restrict a modifier to specific weapons, just restrict it to weapons in general. that means everything energy and even projectile can have [thrt] put on it, making people choose if they value damage or accuracy or critical severity over generating agro.
this way if a cruiser captain wants to be a tank and finds a hard time pulling agro from escorts that appear all too fragile, he can just pile on and equip 8 weapons with threat modifiers and actually be able to draw and keep enemy fire on himself.
And if he wants to survive and actually complete the mission??
you put it on weapons im betting you weight it against cruisers and in favour of escorts right??
Ideally, imo, anyone wanting to tank could slot a skill or a passive or something that would boost threat. By choice, not by ship type or weapon type alone.
And if he wants to survive and actually complete the mission??
you put it on weapons im betting you weight it against cruisers and in favour of escorts right??
no you dolt. i put it in favor of weapons and not much else. if an escort and a cruiser with all weapons having threat control were to have an agro competition, you know who will win? the cruiser, merely by the fact that it has one more weapon slot on it. thats the ONLY reason the cruiser will outdo the escort. not because the cruiser weapons somehow magically generate more agro than the escort ones.
as for the player that wants to survive and complete the mission, then thats simple as all hell too. don't equip weapons with [thrt] on it. you'll generate less agro than those that do.
any other stupid questions? no? then sit on your hands and let grown ups talk.
Ideally, imo, anyone wanting to tank could slot a skill or a passive or something that would boost threat. By choice, not by ship type or weapon type alone.
i'm in favour of that...tie it to some high ranking engi abilities, so only cruisers can use them.
how about this
Engineer threat value 1
Sci threat value 1
Tac threat value 2
player is on Normal threat value -1
player is on Elite threat value +5
Rank
Ensign-lt com no modifier
commander or captain +2
RA +5
VA +10
i can't follow this, wouldn't that mean that a tactical captain had the highest threat potential?
And what is normal threat value and what is elite threat value?
i don't get what the hubbub is with all the ones against the idea. from what i read off the original post, the guy wants a new modifier added to the game, which is to help with increased threat control. if its added on the gear, guess what chumpalotamus, no one is forcing you to get the gear with [thrt] tacked on to it. if you grab it, ITS ALL ON YOU.
honestly, you all whine about the notion of adding a [thrt] modifier as if all weapons in game always have all the modifiers going for them. where's the mk xii antiproton dual heavy cannon [acc][dmg][crtd][crth][borg] weaponry? oh right, they don't exist because the modifiers are always just a combination of 3 attributes.
to the original poster, i support the idea of adding a threat modifier for weaponry. it allows for other vessels to take on the tanking role if they so choose to (like say a cruiser or a science vessel if they are so inclined). and in by making it a modifier, people have to decide wether that modifier is worth it or if its better off as [acc] or [dmg] or the ones for crit.
If it is only on very specific gear, then you have a different problem, namely having to obtain [thrt] gear, which would likely just dilute the already existing drops. Futhermore, if weapons are 'all combinations of up to 3 attributes,' [thrt] would be taking the place of something else on the gear it is found on.
Ideally, imo, anyone wanting to tank could slot a skill or a passive or something that would boost threat. By choice, not by ship type or weapon type alone.
This might work too, but would still effectively be a toggle...
no you dolt. i put it in favor of weapons and not much else. if an escort and a cruiser with all weapons having threat control were to have an agro competition, you know who will win? the cruiser, merely by the fact that it has one more weapon slot on it. thats the ONLY reason the cruiser will outdo the escort. not because the cruiser weapons somehow magically generate more agro than the escort ones.
as for the player that wants to survive and complete the mission, then thats simple as all hell too. don't equip weapons with [thrt] on it. you'll generate less agro than those that do.
any other stupid questions? no? then sit on your hands and let grown ups talk.
You aren't reading what people are saying
now either do so or resign your commission before you get your crew killed
he wants to put threat on EVERY weapon and weight it against cruisers
and to not hyper generate threat you would have to either run a quaker rig or an escort
also don't use words you don't understand
it makes you look ignorant
If it is only on very specific gear, then you have a different problem, namely having to obtain [thrt] gear, which would likely just dilute the already existing drops. Futhermore, if weapons are 'all combinations of up to 3 attributes,' [thrt] would be taking the place of something else on the gear it is found on.
It isn't as easy a thing as you suggest.
whats not easy to understand about that? its all about choice. and having the thing take up a slot of something is exactly and perfectly viable. you look at two weapons and think to yourself, do you choose to use a mk xii disruptor beam array [acc][dmgx2] or do you want to use a mk xii disruptor beam array [acc] [dmg] [thrt]. people nowadays already choose modifiers on their weapons as it is, adding [thrt] as a modifier doesn't change that. it only opens up the selection to people that want to fulfill the role of tank.
So I've been thinking lately about how Cruisers could be assisted with being able to generate and hold aggro better than their smaller escort cousins. These massive dps beasts tend to tear away aggro from even some of the best cruiser jockies.
Then it hits me, why is there no Threat Control modifier on ANY weapon in this game? Many games out there have procs or bonuses for aggro management, but STO does not. So why not create a new modifier that directly affects Threat Control on beam arrays? Would be relatively simple to do/code and could give cruisers the edge they need to be able to lock down aggro on single/multiple mobs.
Thoughts?
note in the second paragraph how he wants a threat control modifier for weapons. he wanted it specifically for beam arrays but i took that a step further by suggesting the modifier be for ANY weapon. and if you had ANY inkling of intelligence, putting it on weapons will obviously give cruisers an edge by merit of having the most weapon slots going on for them. its not because cruisers can magically make the threat modifier multiply a thousandfold, it really is just because the cruiser has 8 slots as opposed to an escort that has 7 or a science vessel that has 6.
you really should sit on your hands now. the more you yap the more you make it clear you're an idiot.
whats not easy to understand about that? its all about choice. and having the thing take up a slot of something is exactly and perfectly viable. you look at two weapons and think to yourself, do you choose to use a mk xii disruptor beam array [acc][dmgx2] or do you want to use a mk xii disruptor beam array [acc] [dmg] [thrt]. people nowadays already choose modifiers on their weapons as it is, adding [thrt] as a modifier doesn't change that. it only opens up the selection to people that want to fulfill the role of tank.
essentially you sacrifice DPS to generate more threat. Possible, and valid idea...but i would rather have an ability that generates threat or acts as a taunt. A BOFF ability in that case.
In that case i can tank without sacrificing Dmg output of my weapons.
also an ability for each career, lets call it "taking command of the fleet"...generate 100% more threat with each point of dmg dealt for 3600 sec.
you can activate it if you like...or just leave it if you are in a team that has already a tank. Or play aggro ping pong.
i'm more in favour of a taunt anyway...that way you have the ability to save another ship if an enemy is shooting at it.
my response is in regards to what the original poster was saying, or do you have brain trauma as a critical injury?
here, lemme post what the guy said :
note in the second paragraph how he wants a threat control modifier for weapons. he wanted it specifically for beam arrays but i took that a step further by suggesting the modifier be for ANY weapon. and if you had ANY inkling of intelligence, putting it on weapons will obviously give cruisers an edge by merit of having the most weapon slots going on for them. its not because cruisers can magically make the threat modifier multiply a thousandfold, it really is just because the cruiser has 8 slots as opposed to an escort that has 7 or a science vessel that has 6.
you really should sit on your hands now. the more you yap the more you make it clear you're an idiot.
so you didn't read ANY of it
we don't want to be targets for everything in the sector
now sit on your hands for a while
We Cruiser captains do not want to die for your tactical advantage
we can do our job better ALIVE
I bet the first thing you do in a STF is start smashing cubes isn't it?
and in mirror universe you trip all four sats then wait for your team to do the work??
Adding a few more tools for aggro management particularly in STFs may be interesting. Threat Control as skill is one element, but probably more is required.
Yes, you need to be quite aggressive and also try and get close to the targets.
I generally run a copy of FAW + Threat control and either a second copy of FAW or APD.
I think most people aren't aggressive enough, and don't have the intention to hold aggro. I think they also tend to fly around in huge circles instead of getting as close to the borg as possible (I'm pretty sure distance affects threat, but by how much is anyone's guess).
I think a fundamental problem i nthis game is that many values are all over the place. You cannot really predict how much modifier to a threat you'd need to give to have a 7-8 beam broadside draw the same aggro as a DHC rapidly firing.
Agreed.
I can say that even in the free ody, my Eng with 9 ranks in threat and 8x beams holds aggro without issue.
The only things that will strip aggro from him are Sci/Tac captains that also have threat or if a ship gets to an enemy long before I do (ex: half team splits to fight final Tac Cube other half takes the gate - it will be exceedingly difficult to pull aggro from which ever side I don't go to if my half of the team finishes faster).
Im ok with that, at least someone is taking it and then I can support them with my heals since I dont need them for myself. Its rare though.
we don't want to be targets for everything in the sector
now sit on your hands for a while
We Cruiser captains do not want to die for your tactical advantage
we can do our job better ALIVE
I bet the first thing you do in a STF is start smashing cubes isn't it?
and in mirror universe you trip all four sats then wait for your team to do the work??
lol. WE?
who is this WE stuff you talk about?
YOU are a vocal minority. there have been other posters on this very thread that are cruiser captains who have expressed THE EXACT OPPOSITE of your feelings on the matter.
Ok, you have full on crossed the threshold into purposefully derailing the thread for no reason.
I play a Cruiser, on Elite STFs. I tank for teams because Cruisers are built for tanking and support.
I'm sorry if you think this is not the case, but this is exactly what they were designed to do and for the vast majority of all content - they do this exceptionally well.
I'm really not sure what the issue is with you, or why you are having a rage fit in this thread.
The OP is looking for advice, either provide or move on.
I personally believe cruisers should have a built in snap aggro ability as well, not only the Threat Modifier that I originally provided as an idea. Taunt button (Single or AoE) screams to mind when it comes to tanking, and that's another thing Cruisers do not have at their disposal. Relying only on a single passive skill is making your tanks kinda gimpy in my opinion.
yeah totally agree. it should come with a build in taunt, if you chose a cruiser. If you like to play your cruiser as a supporter/healer or even DD, just don't use the taunt.
what i proposed earlier in the thread, that certain abilities could act a s a taunt would mean that you lose a defensive ability in order to have a taunt...and that is in many cases not very preferable.
But still, high tier engi abilities like aceton beam and energie modulation could be modified to act as taunts and aggro buffs.
and here's a third guy.
as for your silly questions, here's what i do in STFs :
infected : tank the cube, engage the 2 spheres at the beginning, tank the cube above the transformers, help with taking all 4 generators down to a significant amount, pop em when theyre all low. if the nanite probes seem like they could even get close to the generator, i evasive with full engines and tractor repulse them back. after that i help with mop up via a well placed gravity well + graviton pulse on the lot and send a tricobalt spread their way. rinse and repeat at the other side, then i tank the tac cube while the team decides to either kill the gate or the cube.
cure : i position myself to have a firing solution on 4 nanite probes at a time as well as bops. once thats done i engage either the raptor or negh var and take them out of the picture.
KA : tank the tac cube, if theres gate guards then i go in and take down transformers + generator + cube, otherwise i play gate guard and feed tricobalt spreads to gravity welled probes. in the unlikely event that they survive, i push em back with a repulsor and repeat the process (35 second cooldown on gravity well is boss).
as for mirror event, i haven't done that in ages but when i did, i'd tell one person to flip a satellite while i go in and gravity well + tricobalt spread ships.]
try to not be a generalizing and assuming TRIBBLE next time. also, no one died and made you representative speaker of all cruisers captains. so next time, voice out opinions for yourself and stop claiming to speak for everyone.
we don't want to be targets for everything in the sector
now sit on your hands for a while
We Cruiser captains do not want to die for your tactical advantage
we can do our job better ALIVE
I bet the first thing you do in a STF is start smashing cubes isn't it?
and in mirror universe you trip all four sats then wait for your team to do the work??
What do you do in STFs then? For the record I used to love to fly the galaxy R butit is just not doing its job compared to other ships...
NERF CANNONS - THEY NEED A 50% NERF
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
whats not easy to understand about that? its all about choice. and having the thing take up a slot of something is exactly and perfectly viable. you look at two weapons and think to yourself, do you choose to use a mk xii disruptor beam array [acc][dmgx2] or do you want to use a mk xii disruptor beam array [acc] [dmg] [thrt]. people nowadays already choose modifiers on their weapons as it is, adding [thrt] as a modifier doesn't change that. it only opens up the selection to people that want to fulfill the role of tank.
What part about my post suggested I didn't understand the proposal?
How many people would be thrilled to get a purple only to find [thrt] on it, meaning it is only a blue to anyone who doesn't want to build a tanking vessel?
And if cruisers are taking a dps hit to tank effectively, wouldn't that make them even more shunned in STFs than they already are? I didn't get the impression that lack of ability to grab agro was the main criticism of cruisers from escort captains
What part about my post suggested I didn't understand the proposal?
How many people would be thrilled to get a purple only to find [thrt] on it, meaning it is only a blue to anyone who doesn't want to build a tanking vessel?
And if cruisers are taking a dps hit to tank effectively, wouldn't that make them even more shunned in STFs than they already are? I didn't get the impression that lack of ability to grab agro was the main criticism of cruisers from escort captains
in regards to your first.... sentence, that just means that if they don't like it, put it up on the exchange and maybe someone that wants to run a tanking ship will pick it up. people don't have to always equip gear they find on missions yknow.
in regards to taking a dps hit, thats on the assumption that somehow having [thrt] magically invalidates getting [dam] or [crtd] somehow. but given the current modifiers we have, i doubt that will be the case. in regards to the criticism from escort captains, given the original post, it isn't from escort captains, its from a cruiser captain unto himself. and he IS right. even with a build and layout made for tanking and pulling attention onto ones self, situations still arise where you can not peel aggro off an escort. the only time you do is when said escort is a smoldering ruin in space.
in regards to your first.... sentence, that just means that if they don't like it, put it up on the exchange and maybe someone that wants to run a tanking ship will pick it up. people don't have to always equip gear they find on missions yknow.
in regards to taking a dps hit, thats on the assumption that somehow having [thrt] magically invalidates getting [dam] or [crtd] somehow. but given the current modifiers we have, i doubt that will be the case. in regards to the criticism from escort captains, given the original post, it isn't from escort captains, its from a cruiser captain unto himself. and he IS right. even with a build and layout made for tanking and pulling attention onto ones self, situations still arise where you can not peel aggro off an escort. the only time you do is when said escort is a smoldering ruin in space.
as an occasional tank, and mainly escort captain, i couldn't care less about the moron in his escort pulling aggro from me (even though it happens rarely, and only if said captain had maxed threat)
If he dies and i get aggro after him, thats just fine.
I think kimmera just wants to point out, that a threat modifier would only devalue said weapon, making it less preferable for the majority of players.
And to have a set of weapons, only for grp play...and maybe use it instead of [BORG] weapons in an STF is even less preferable. To me atleast.
i think there should be another form of threat generating than the skill in the skilltree...since it makes my captain bound to a cruiser. And it is a wasted skill in PVP and single PVE.
PS: actually i wouldn't mind if they got rid of the skilltree alltogether and instead buff your abilities directly with consoles. Would add way more versatility if i could switch my BOFF abilities and just add the coresponding console into my ship.
For ground combat the kits could be enhanced with certain abilities.
that's neat and all, though that deters from those that want nothing to do with tanking. i never thought to restrict a modifier to specific weapons, just restrict it to weapons in general. that means everything energy and even projectile can have [thrt] put on it, making people choose if they value damage or accuracy or critical severity over generating agro.
this way if a cruiser captain wants to be a tank and finds a hard time pulling agro from escorts that appear all too fragile, he can just pile on and equip 8 weapons with threat modifiers and actually be able to draw and keep enemy fire on himself.
Yes, it would appear I misunderstood the suggestion.
I thought you meant for Arrays to generate more threat innately, not a weapon mod.
The problem with a weapon mod is that opportunity cost comes into play. If [THRT] has a +5% Threat Bonus but deals 5% less DPS than [ACC] for instance, its user generates the same Threat but does less damage in the process.
And indeed, in STFs, it's hard to pass up [BORG] weapons, which obviously don't have that weapon mod.
But anyway, those that don't want anything to do with tanking just shouldn't be in tanking Ships.
It's completely lopsided that in this game, a tank can get away with contributing only (comparatively poor) DPS while the BoP with half the Hull tanks to the best of its ability.
Try that in most other MMOs and you'll soon be the laughingstock of the server, same as someone that decides he's going to play main heal on a DD class that barely has heals in the first place.
And seriously, everyone, just ignore Sollvax. We're talking about someone who derailled a thread about the Galaxy-X into whether Battleships or Carriers were obsolete in today's navies (and tried to redefine words when everyone said his/her claims were wrong), someone that repeatedly argued the market value of an item should be whatever s/he wants rather than what supply and demand dictates.
I would imagine that most players create an Engineer with Cruisers and Tanking in mind. Can they perform well in Escorts and Science vessels, sure they can, but not nearly as well as science and tacticals.
Engineer Cruisers are my hands down favorite thing in STO. I spec for endurance and threat. I load up on TS, HE, ES, ASIF, and TT so I can rescue as much as I can survive. Damage is important in this game, maybe a bit too important, but if I got a couple escorts with me then I only worry about maintaining threat(I keep 9 in threat control and toggle power settings frequently based on my present needs)and I let the escorts worry about damage.
Would I like some more, Engineer based threat, sure. But I think it would be better if it keyed off Engineer Captian skills than on weapons. Attach a huge threat magnet to Nadion Inversion or Rotate Shield Frequencies.
we don't want to be targets for everything in the sector
now sit on your hands for a while
We Cruiser captains do not want to die for your tactical advantage
we can do our job better ALIVE
I bet the first thing you do in a STF is start smashing cubes isn't it?
and in mirror universe you trip all four sats then wait for your team to do the work??
Who is this we you keep referring to? Do you have a tapeworm? As a Cruiser Captain, I feel that being to actually use my massive space whale to soak up damage instead of sitting there firing a few phasers/single cannons would really help in my viability in end game PVE. I can still do plenty of other things yes, but giving cruisers a better way to generate threat would add to my capabilities. I'm already an invincible can of awesome in STF's, I should be able to put that invincibility to good use.
I don't think a threat modifier for weapons would work though, maybe have a console type that does the same thing as the Threat Control Skill (ex. grants you a small passive damage resistance bonus, to help compensate for the additional threat) or a consumable that generates a massive burst of threat from your ship?
If you dont want to be a target for everything in the sector i suggest getting a desk job at Star Fleet academy.
All my ships (12 toons) have the innate aggro magent skill maxxed out.
I stand here telling you now that I do not die very often...even a sci capt in a squishy sci vessel....it allows me to control the mobs quite well through aggro ...drawing mobs off the weaker escorts or ships under heavy attack....
It seems there is a lot of anger here that needs to be dropped......it is a game.
there is room for players who are not hardcore and wanna fly arounf and be leisure and nothing special...to those who are serious players and like to take control of the game by the horns....
I still laugh when cruiser captains stop their movement and broadside a tac cube only to pop 2 seconds later......and they cry the game is op.
Sorry was slightly off topic there but the game allows for pretty much all playstyles....learn your skill trees and use it wisely. get the best gear you can
Today we fight the GAULS......monstrous and HAIRY beyond reason.
Adding [threat] to weapons, I think, is not a good idea.
As said, it will devalue the weapons, effectively, to Blues (rares).
Only people who WANT threat will get them... from my own observations, even the majority of cruiser captains don't. They'd be dirt-cheap on the exchange, and I'd be worried rookie captains would buy them, just cause they're the cheapest. Even on escorts.
I like the Starship Threat Control skill. It's not forced upon captains, yet gives those who want it, that choice. It seems to work well, but I wouldn't mind a taunt to pull aggro immediately off a teammate in trouble. If it were made in a way so only those in cruisers could use it, cool. As long as it's not on EVERYONE who flys a cruiser.
I'm all about more options, but never anything forced on others.
My mains of both factions are Eng who fly cruisers.
(atm, a Gal-R and a Bortas).
I tank. I know I can take much more damage than the other ships and survive.
And if I do my job, and try to keep the the escorts and sci ships from dying by holding aggro and tossing out heals, then they can continue to do their job. Tanking is a valid job, and on a cruiser, basically makes up for the fact that our damage is widely considered sub-par (to put it nicely).
By my job, I am referring to my skill point loadout, assigned doffs, and boff loadout. All laid out with tanking in mind, not damage dealing. Not the fact that I'm an Eng in a cruiser.
I don't feel like I'm forced to tank by flying a cruiser. Expected to? As an Engineer, yeah, kinda. I wouldn't expect a Tac in a cruiser to though. (most tacs in cruisers I've seen are laughably bad at tanking AND dps anyway). Tanks are probably the most underappreciated "role". In an STF, A tank can hold all the aggro, dish out heals, prevent any deaths at all and nobody notices. If I have one gripe, that's it. If you have a good tank, thank him/her. Make them feel good about a job nobody seems to want
While I like tanking, I respect that others may not. To each their own. If someone doesn't like the thought of being a meat shield for the jocks, then I have to respect that, and wouldn't expect them to be forced into it, nor would I advocate for it.
A [threat] stat doesn't do that. (I have a hard time thinking they'd put it on ALL weapons).
A stat that inherently puts cruisers at higher threat would. And I don't support that.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
Adding [threat] to weapons, I think, is not a good idea.
As said, it will devalue the weapons, effectively, to Blues (rares).
Only people who WANT threat will get them... from my own observations, even the majority of cruiser captains don't. They'd be dirt-cheap on the exchange, and I'd be worried rookie captains would buy them, just cause they're the cheapest. Even on escorts.
I like the Starship Threat Control skill. It's not forced upon captains, yet gives those who want it, that choice. It seems to work well, but I wouldn't mind a taunt to pull aggro immediately off a teammate in trouble. If it were made in a way so only those in cruisers could use it, cool. As long as it's not on EVERYONE who flys a cruiser.
I'm all about more options, but never anything forced on others.
those two paragraphs are so ridiculously contradictory it almost hurts. you say that you are perfectly fine with the threat control skill because players can opt to not get them, yet you say you dislike the notion of having another modifier added to the pool of available modifiers weapons can get. these said weapons, by the way, can be ignored and all in all just not be used by people that do not want them. you make it sound like someone will hold a person at gunpoint to buy these weapons when we both know that isn't true.
we don't want to be targets for everything in the sector
So don't take the abilities that increase your aggro/threat control.
Everyone is happy - people that want to play NPC punching bag, and those who rather not do so.
The only one not happy are those that don't like other people playing punching bags and want Escorts to take all the heat. Too bad for them, not wanting others to have fun is not something we need to support.
Mustrum "I wonder if anyone will start to grief tanks by loading threat mods on his Escort" Ridcully
PS:
I recommend everyone to not let yourself lure into insulting sollvax or something similar. It will only backfire on you. If he bothers you too much, there is an ignore function - or just self discipline.
PPS: Reading on the problem with [THREAT] weapons of less value for non-tanks. That may be, but if you ask a PvPer, the only mod worth having is [ACC] usually, so it's not a new thing. IIRC, Threat Control also gives you some damage resistance, so if [THREAT] weapons would do the same, they may be worth it again. ANd if you're worried that people don't like a genuine tank cruiser because they don't bring the DPS, then you're worried that people don't like Cruisers, full stop. Because if DPS is really everything, everyone should fly an Escort. And maybe Science Vessels get a pass because they can have Tractor Beam Repulsors or Gravity Well. Giving the existing DPS differences in player builds, I don't think that is something to worry about. The real risks to a STF is someone not knowing the rules and having a terrible build for any purpose, or the inabilty to use his build. The necessary DPS will invariable come if you know what you're doing.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
YOU are a vocal minority. there have been other posters on this very thread that are cruiser captains who have expressed THE EXACT OPPOSITE of your feelings on the matter
.
we the non kamikazi cruiser users
there's one there
there's another
BOTH these guys are escort or carrier guys I believe
and here's a third guy.
as for your silly questions, here's what i do in STFs :
infected : tank the cube, engage the 2 spheres at the beginning, tank the cube above the transformers, help with taking all 4 generators down to a significant amount, pop em when theyre all low. if the nanite probes seem like they could even get close to the generator, i evasive with full engines and tractor repulse them back. after that i help with mop up via a well placed gravity well + graviton pulse on the lot and send a tricobalt spread their way. rinse and repeat at the other side, then i tank the tac cube while the team decides to either kill the gate or the cube.
so you MULTI role
and you don't Tank you act as a command and control cruiser
cure : i position myself to have a firing solution on 4 nanite probes at a time as well as bops. once thats done i engage either the raptor or negh var and take them out of the picture.
KA : tank the tac cube, if theres gate guards then i go in and take down transformers + generator + cube, otherwise i play gate guard and feed tricobalt spreads to gravity welled probes. in the unlikely event that they survive, i push em back with a repulsor and repeat the process (35 second cooldown on gravity well is boss).
again you are not tanking you are acting as a command and control cruiser
as for mirror event, i haven't done that in ages but when i did, i'd tell one person to flip a satellite while i go in and gravity well + tricobalt spread ships.]
i bet you zero half your team don't ya
try to not be a generalizing and assuming TRIBBLE next time. also, no one died and made you representative speaker of all cruisers captains. so next time, voice out opinions for yourself and stop claiming to speak for everyone.
actually a lot of cruiser captains died so that escort captains could live ALREADY
and I don't want to be one of them
Comments
Back to the topic at hand: I've argued the same in the past, though I think the Threat Mod should be tied to ship type*, not weapon.
It's a bit too restrictive to tie it to weapon - what of non-Cruisers using Arrays? Or Cruiser builds that use few to no arrays?
They might be rare or niche, but no need to punish those builds if they can work.
*or even specific ships; for instance the offensive Cruisers could have a lower Threat Mod than the tanky tank of tankiness Cruisers.
Here, tentative list for T5 Threat mods (formula derived from BOFF layout and max Hull):
Cruisers:
Vanguard 1.25
Sovereign 1.23
Excelsior 1.22
Galaxy-R 1.3
Galaxy-X 1.25
Odyssey 1.14
Odyssey Ops 1.11
Odyssey Sci 1.11
Odyssey Tac 1.11
Negh'Var 1.28
Vor'cha-R 1.18
Bortas 1.18
Bortasqu' War 1.13
Bortasqu' Tac 1.13
Bortasqu' Command 1.13
Galor 1.07
D'Kora 1.15
Marauder 1.25
Science Vessels:
Luna .9
Trident .97
D'Kyr 1
Nebula-R 1.07
Intrepid-X .92
Varanus .97
Escorts:
Hermes .85
Prometheus .82
Prometheus-R .83
Defiant-R .8
Akira-R .86
Qin .85
Guramba .87
Jem'Hadar .95
BoPs:
Hegh'ta .78
B'rel-R .73
Carriers:
Atrox 1.16
Vo'quv 1.16
Kar'fi .96
This mod would apply multiplicatively to any action generating Threat.
Bonus effect: gives a niche back to the Galaxy-R: having the most Threat Generation.
OK, I suppose I walked into that / deserved that kind of a response with my wording. I am quite aware that there's a context to it that's gonna leave escorts far ahead and more offensive-able setups a step ahead -- given non-dumb players, of course. 'cause yeah I PuG enough to see some of the worst.
I suppose, realistically, all I should mean is that I don't feel like bringing a cruiser to do some DPS instead of my escort is a waste in ESTFs, especially since I do like to support in a cruiser as well. The latter is not so easy with escort/BoP layouts.
While I am sure running a log parser would be quite humbling, I merely based that off of observations, especially relative to other ships in STFs alongside me and how they appeared to be doing. So the scientist in me is angry at myself for speaking anecdotally, but the gamer in me doesn't care and was just making conversation :P.
Sheesh and now I feel like I'm coming across as if I'm trying to impress you or make sure you're OK with what I'm posting, and wow that's silly.
I think the point is that I'm more or less on the same page as you.
equal parts cynical and helpful
this way if a cruiser captain wants to be a tank and finds a hard time pulling agro from escorts that appear all too fragile, he can just pile on and equip 8 weapons with threat modifiers and actually be able to draw and keep enemy fire on himself.
Now who is trolling
how about this
Engineer threat value 1
Sci threat value 1
Tac threat value 2
player is on Normal threat value -1
player is on Elite threat value +5
Rank
Ensign-lt com no modifier
commander or captain +2
RA +5
VA +10
you dare call people trolls after the abuse and TRIBBLE you and others dish out to the rest of us??
And if he wants to survive and actually complete the mission??
you put it on weapons im betting you weight it against cruisers and in favour of escorts right??
equal parts cynical and helpful
no you dolt. i put it in favor of weapons and not much else. if an escort and a cruiser with all weapons having threat control were to have an agro competition, you know who will win? the cruiser, merely by the fact that it has one more weapon slot on it. thats the ONLY reason the cruiser will outdo the escort. not because the cruiser weapons somehow magically generate more agro than the escort ones.
as for the player that wants to survive and complete the mission, then thats simple as all hell too. don't equip weapons with [thrt] on it. you'll generate less agro than those that do.
any other stupid questions? no? then sit on your hands and let grown ups talk.
i'm in favour of that...tie it to some high ranking engi abilities, so only cruisers can use them.
i can't follow this, wouldn't that mean that a tactical captain had the highest threat potential?
And what is normal threat value and what is elite threat value?
If it is only on very specific gear, then you have a different problem, namely having to obtain [thrt] gear, which would likely just dilute the already existing drops. Futhermore, if weapons are 'all combinations of up to 3 attributes,' [thrt] would be taking the place of something else on the gear it is found on.
It isn't as easy a thing as you suggest.
This might work too, but would still effectively be a toggle...
You aren't reading what people are saying
now either do so or resign your commission before you get your crew killed
he wants to put threat on EVERY weapon and weight it against cruisers
and to not hyper generate threat you would have to either run a quaker rig or an escort
also don't use words you don't understand
it makes you look ignorant
whats not easy to understand about that? its all about choice. and having the thing take up a slot of something is exactly and perfectly viable. you look at two weapons and think to yourself, do you choose to use a mk xii disruptor beam array [acc][dmgx2] or do you want to use a mk xii disruptor beam array [acc] [dmg] [thrt]. people nowadays already choose modifiers on their weapons as it is, adding [thrt] as a modifier doesn't change that. it only opens up the selection to people that want to fulfill the role of tank.
my response is in regards to what the original poster was saying, or do you have brain trauma as a critical injury?
here, lemme post what the guy said :
note in the second paragraph how he wants a threat control modifier for weapons. he wanted it specifically for beam arrays but i took that a step further by suggesting the modifier be for ANY weapon. and if you had ANY inkling of intelligence, putting it on weapons will obviously give cruisers an edge by merit of having the most weapon slots going on for them. its not because cruisers can magically make the threat modifier multiply a thousandfold, it really is just because the cruiser has 8 slots as opposed to an escort that has 7 or a science vessel that has 6.
you really should sit on your hands now. the more you yap the more you make it clear you're an idiot.
essentially you sacrifice DPS to generate more threat. Possible, and valid idea...but i would rather have an ability that generates threat or acts as a taunt. A BOFF ability in that case.
In that case i can tank without sacrificing Dmg output of my weapons.
also an ability for each career, lets call it "taking command of the fleet"...generate 100% more threat with each point of dmg dealt for 3600 sec.
you can activate it if you like...or just leave it if you are in a team that has already a tank. Or play aggro ping pong.
i'm more in favour of a taunt anyway...that way you have the ability to save another ship if an enemy is shooting at it.
so you didn't read ANY of it
we don't want to be targets for everything in the sector
now sit on your hands for a while
We Cruiser captains do not want to die for your tactical advantage
we can do our job better ALIVE
I bet the first thing you do in a STF is start smashing cubes isn't it?
and in mirror universe you trip all four sats then wait for your team to do the work??
Yes, you need to be quite aggressive and also try and get close to the targets.
I generally run a copy of FAW + Threat control and either a second copy of FAW or APD.
I think most people aren't aggressive enough, and don't have the intention to hold aggro. I think they also tend to fly around in huge circles instead of getting as close to the borg as possible (I'm pretty sure distance affects threat, but by how much is anyone's guess).
Agreed.
I can say that even in the free ody, my Eng with 9 ranks in threat and 8x beams holds aggro without issue.
The only things that will strip aggro from him are Sci/Tac captains that also have threat or if a ship gets to an enemy long before I do (ex: half team splits to fight final Tac Cube other half takes the gate - it will be exceedingly difficult to pull aggro from which ever side I don't go to if my half of the team finishes faster).
Im ok with that, at least someone is taking it and then I can support them with my heals since I dont need them for myself. Its rare though.
lol. WE?
who is this WE stuff you talk about?
YOU are a vocal minority. there have been other posters on this very thread that are cruiser captains who have expressed THE EXACT OPPOSITE of your feelings on the matter.
there's one there
there's another
and here's a third guy.
as for your silly questions, here's what i do in STFs :
infected : tank the cube, engage the 2 spheres at the beginning, tank the cube above the transformers, help with taking all 4 generators down to a significant amount, pop em when theyre all low. if the nanite probes seem like they could even get close to the generator, i evasive with full engines and tractor repulse them back. after that i help with mop up via a well placed gravity well + graviton pulse on the lot and send a tricobalt spread their way. rinse and repeat at the other side, then i tank the tac cube while the team decides to either kill the gate or the cube.
cure : i position myself to have a firing solution on 4 nanite probes at a time as well as bops. once thats done i engage either the raptor or negh var and take them out of the picture.
KA : tank the tac cube, if theres gate guards then i go in and take down transformers + generator + cube, otherwise i play gate guard and feed tricobalt spreads to gravity welled probes. in the unlikely event that they survive, i push em back with a repulsor and repeat the process (35 second cooldown on gravity well is boss).
as for mirror event, i haven't done that in ages but when i did, i'd tell one person to flip a satellite while i go in and gravity well + tricobalt spread ships.]
try to not be a generalizing and assuming TRIBBLE next time. also, no one died and made you representative speaker of all cruisers captains. so next time, voice out opinions for yourself and stop claiming to speak for everyone.
now go sit on your hands.
so what is your job exactly then? where do you think lies the goal of a cruiser in this game...what is a good cruiser build in your opinion?
What do you do in STFs then? For the record I used to love to fly the galaxy R butit is just not doing its job compared to other ships...
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
What part about my post suggested I didn't understand the proposal?
How many people would be thrilled to get a purple only to find [thrt] on it, meaning it is only a blue to anyone who doesn't want to build a tanking vessel?
And if cruisers are taking a dps hit to tank effectively, wouldn't that make them even more shunned in STFs than they already are? I didn't get the impression that lack of ability to grab agro was the main criticism of cruisers from escort captains
in regards to your first.... sentence, that just means that if they don't like it, put it up on the exchange and maybe someone that wants to run a tanking ship will pick it up. people don't have to always equip gear they find on missions yknow.
in regards to taking a dps hit, thats on the assumption that somehow having [thrt] magically invalidates getting [dam] or [crtd] somehow. but given the current modifiers we have, i doubt that will be the case. in regards to the criticism from escort captains, given the original post, it isn't from escort captains, its from a cruiser captain unto himself. and he IS right. even with a build and layout made for tanking and pulling attention onto ones self, situations still arise where you can not peel aggro off an escort. the only time you do is when said escort is a smoldering ruin in space.
as an occasional tank, and mainly escort captain, i couldn't care less about the moron in his escort pulling aggro from me (even though it happens rarely, and only if said captain had maxed threat)
If he dies and i get aggro after him, thats just fine.
I think kimmera just wants to point out, that a threat modifier would only devalue said weapon, making it less preferable for the majority of players.
And to have a set of weapons, only for grp play...and maybe use it instead of [BORG] weapons in an STF is even less preferable. To me atleast.
i think there should be another form of threat generating than the skill in the skilltree...since it makes my captain bound to a cruiser. And it is a wasted skill in PVP and single PVE.
PS: actually i wouldn't mind if they got rid of the skilltree alltogether and instead buff your abilities directly with consoles. Would add way more versatility if i could switch my BOFF abilities and just add the coresponding console into my ship.
For ground combat the kits could be enhanced with certain abilities.
Yes, it would appear I misunderstood the suggestion.
I thought you meant for Arrays to generate more threat innately, not a weapon mod.
The problem with a weapon mod is that opportunity cost comes into play. If [THRT] has a +5% Threat Bonus but deals 5% less DPS than [ACC] for instance, its user generates the same Threat but does less damage in the process.
And indeed, in STFs, it's hard to pass up [BORG] weapons, which obviously don't have that weapon mod.
But anyway, those that don't want anything to do with tanking just shouldn't be in tanking Ships.
It's completely lopsided that in this game, a tank can get away with contributing only (comparatively poor) DPS while the BoP with half the Hull tanks to the best of its ability.
Try that in most other MMOs and you'll soon be the laughingstock of the server, same as someone that decides he's going to play main heal on a DD class that barely has heals in the first place.
And seriously, everyone, just ignore Sollvax. We're talking about someone who derailled a thread about the Galaxy-X into whether Battleships or Carriers were obsolete in today's navies (and tried to redefine words when everyone said his/her claims were wrong), someone that repeatedly argued the market value of an item should be whatever s/he wants rather than what supply and demand dictates.
Engineer Cruisers are my hands down favorite thing in STO. I spec for endurance and threat. I load up on TS, HE, ES, ASIF, and TT so I can rescue as much as I can survive. Damage is important in this game, maybe a bit too important, but if I got a couple escorts with me then I only worry about maintaining threat(I keep 9 in threat control and toggle power settings frequently based on my present needs)and I let the escorts worry about damage.
Would I like some more, Engineer based threat, sure. But I think it would be better if it keyed off Engineer Captian skills than on weapons. Attach a huge threat magnet to Nadion Inversion or Rotate Shield Frequencies.
Who is this we you keep referring to? Do you have a tapeworm? As a Cruiser Captain, I feel that being to actually use my massive space whale to soak up damage instead of sitting there firing a few phasers/single cannons would really help in my viability in end game PVE. I can still do plenty of other things yes, but giving cruisers a better way to generate threat would add to my capabilities. I'm already an invincible can of awesome in STF's, I should be able to put that invincibility to good use.
I don't think a threat modifier for weapons would work though, maybe have a console type that does the same thing as the Threat Control Skill (ex. grants you a small passive damage resistance bonus, to help compensate for the additional threat) or a consumable that generates a massive burst of threat from your ship?
All my ships (12 toons) have the innate aggro magent skill maxxed out.
I stand here telling you now that I do not die very often...even a sci capt in a squishy sci vessel....it allows me to control the mobs quite well through aggro ...drawing mobs off the weaker escorts or ships under heavy attack....
It seems there is a lot of anger here that needs to be dropped......it is a game.
there is room for players who are not hardcore and wanna fly arounf and be leisure and nothing special...to those who are serious players and like to take control of the game by the horns....
I still laugh when cruiser captains stop their movement and broadside a tac cube only to pop 2 seconds later......and they cry the game is op.
Sorry was slightly off topic there but the game allows for pretty much all playstyles....learn your skill trees and use it wisely. get the best gear you can
As said, it will devalue the weapons, effectively, to Blues (rares).
Only people who WANT threat will get them... from my own observations, even the majority of cruiser captains don't. They'd be dirt-cheap on the exchange, and I'd be worried rookie captains would buy them, just cause they're the cheapest. Even on escorts.
I like the Starship Threat Control skill. It's not forced upon captains, yet gives those who want it, that choice. It seems to work well, but I wouldn't mind a taunt to pull aggro immediately off a teammate in trouble. If it were made in a way so only those in cruisers could use it, cool. As long as it's not on EVERYONE who flys a cruiser.
I'm all about more options, but never anything forced on others.
My mains of both factions are Eng who fly cruisers.
(atm, a Gal-R and a Bortas).
I tank. I know I can take much more damage than the other ships and survive.
And if I do my job, and try to keep the the escorts and sci ships from dying by holding aggro and tossing out heals, then they can continue to do their job. Tanking is a valid job, and on a cruiser, basically makes up for the fact that our damage is widely considered sub-par (to put it nicely).
By my job, I am referring to my skill point loadout, assigned doffs, and boff loadout. All laid out with tanking in mind, not damage dealing. Not the fact that I'm an Eng in a cruiser.
I don't feel like I'm forced to tank by flying a cruiser. Expected to? As an Engineer, yeah, kinda. I wouldn't expect a Tac in a cruiser to though. (most tacs in cruisers I've seen are laughably bad at tanking AND dps anyway). Tanks are probably the most underappreciated "role". In an STF, A tank can hold all the aggro, dish out heals, prevent any deaths at all and nobody notices. If I have one gripe, that's it. If you have a good tank, thank him/her. Make them feel good about a job nobody seems to want
While I like tanking, I respect that others may not. To each their own. If someone doesn't like the thought of being a meat shield for the jocks, then I have to respect that, and wouldn't expect them to be forced into it, nor would I advocate for it.
A [threat] stat doesn't do that. (I have a hard time thinking they'd put it on ALL weapons).
A stat that inherently puts cruisers at higher threat would. And I don't support that.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
those two paragraphs are so ridiculously contradictory it almost hurts. you say that you are perfectly fine with the threat control skill because players can opt to not get them, yet you say you dislike the notion of having another modifier added to the pool of available modifiers weapons can get. these said weapons, by the way, can be ignored and all in all just not be used by people that do not want them. you make it sound like someone will hold a person at gunpoint to buy these weapons when we both know that isn't true.
So don't take the abilities that increase your aggro/threat control.
Everyone is happy - people that want to play NPC punching bag, and those who rather not do so.
The only one not happy are those that don't like other people playing punching bags and want Escorts to take all the heat. Too bad for them, not wanting others to have fun is not something we need to support.
Mustrum "I wonder if anyone will start to grief tanks by loading threat mods on his Escort" Ridcully
PS:
I recommend everyone to not let yourself lure into insulting sollvax or something similar. It will only backfire on you. If he bothers you too much, there is an ignore function - or just self discipline.
PPS: Reading on the problem with [THREAT] weapons of less value for non-tanks. That may be, but if you ask a PvPer, the only mod worth having is [ACC] usually, so it's not a new thing. IIRC, Threat Control also gives you some damage resistance, so if [THREAT] weapons would do the same, they may be worth it again. ANd if you're worried that people don't like a genuine tank cruiser because they don't bring the DPS, then you're worried that people don't like Cruisers, full stop. Because if DPS is really everything, everyone should fly an Escort. And maybe Science Vessels get a pass because they can have Tractor Beam Repulsors or Gravity Well. Giving the existing DPS differences in player builds, I don't think that is something to worry about. The real risks to a STF is someone not knowing the rules and having a terrible build for any purpose, or the inabilty to use his build. The necessary DPS will invariable come if you know what you're doing.
Go boil your boxer shorts