This has nothing to do with Threat Control, stop trying to derail the topic.
I don't think Cruisers should be shoehorned into being tanks, and tanks only, and I don't think adding an optional threat modifier would change this either, as if it's an entirely optional addition you could still theoretically ignore it. I do think an addition to the skill is needed however in order to better let the tanks draw aggro, especially when you have to deal with Glass Cannons that have picked up the skill. Yes they shouldn't have, but given the outrageous cost of respec tokens, and the tendency for people to still see the skill tree as split for tacs, engs, and sci's when they do their first playthrough, it should be taken into account. Plus adding the ability to allow a tank to have threat modifiers also allows it to access the damage resistance passive that goes along with it making them a more effective tank overall.
Threat has to be directed TOWARDS escorts not away from them
they are warships
the rest of us are not
a Smart NPC should identify the escort and fire on it first second and last
until its debris
If npcs acted entirely intelligently, we wouldn't have a chance. Agro tools can be consistent with canon, namely tricking sensors, making some targets seem more opportunistic and/or others less.
And by the way, weren't you arguing cruisers are warships? If they are not, what do you consider them? Freighters?
If they are not combat vessels, why would they be on the battlefield at all, tanking or otherwise?
The escort guys insist that they are warships and my (much more effective overall) cruiser is merely "a riot shield"
well if they are so powerful then the npcs should target them ALL the time right??
or are they prepared to admit that a cruiser is tougher BETTER and more capable in variant ops??
Agreeed. I only bring my cruiser into STF's so I can transport punch and pie to the other ships at the end of the battle. That's what the replicator is for -- it gives us non-fighting-ships something useful to do during combat. While the escorts are making with their MAXIMUM PEWPEW, I'm best to just stay out of the way and crank out jambalaya and synthale.
The dev's need to give us the option instead of starfleet or fleet logos to have a catering company logo.
__________________________________________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
If npcs acted entirely intelligently, we wouldn't have a chance. Agro tools can be consistent with canon, namely tricking sensors, making some targets seem more opportunistic and/or others less.
And by the way, weren't you arguing cruisers are warships? If they are not, what do you consider them? Freighters?
If they are not combat vessels, why would they be on the battlefield at all, tanking or otherwise?
In-Universe:
Starfleet doesn't like the term warship. That's a political thing. Fact is everything but the Oberth seemed to be quite capable of holding its own in a firefight.
But none of these ships have their primary purpose in warfare. They are meant as multi-role vessels that can handle battles, yes, but are also for exploration, transportation and several other non-military roles. Escorts are the only thing that are different - their only purpose is combat. Except Starfleet didn't really want to come out and say that, so they named them Escort.
All these names are mis-leading in the end. Most Federation Cruisers are warships, e.g. in a war, they'll be send and quite capable to fight. Escorts aren't (phaser) bullet-catching body-guards, they are specialized ships that are only meant for combat. They have little use outside of war.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Either the escort is a WARSHIP in which case it can take its own hits
or its a sissy little support vessel in which case its useless
theres no middle ground
are you a fighting ship (in which case stop whining for the cruiser to soak your damage)
or are you a support ship (in which case you stay close and protect OUR vessels and we will keep you in one piece)
Either way the term Elite is misunderstood
the band of Thebes were an Elite (they rarely survived a battle)
Elite means "disposable" in the original meaning
frontline
first to die
Shield wall
Either the escort is a WARSHIP in which case it can take its own hits
or its a sissy little support vessel in which case its useless
theres no middle ground
are you a fighting ship (in which case stop whining for the cruiser to soak your damage)
or are you a support ship (in which case you stay close and protect OUR vessels and we will keep you in one piece)
Either way the term Elite is misunderstood
the band of Thebes were an Elite (they rarely survived a battle)
Elite means "disposable" in the original meaning
frontline
first to die
Shield wall
Or MAYBE, and I'm just spitballing here, they are all different types of warships that specialize in different roles on the battlefield. The fact that you have a need to rationalize all ships in the game as being a 'warship' or a 'sissy support ship' tells me your opinion isn't likely to change, and that you don't really care about the larger topic of threat, your just here to start semantic arguments like this is a youtube comments section or something.
Starfleet doesn't like the term warship. That's a political thing. Fact is everything but the Oberth seemed to be quite capable of holding its own in a firefight.
But none of these ships have their primary purpose in warfare. They are meant as multi-role vessels that can handle battles, yes, but are also for exploration, transportation and several other non-military roles. Escorts are the only thing that are different - their only purpose is combat. Except Starfleet didn't really want to come out and say that, so they named them Escort.
All these names are mis-leading in the end. Most Federation Cruisers are warships, e.g. in a war, they'll be send and quite capable to fight. Escorts aren't (phaser) bullet-catching body-guards, they are specialized ships that are only meant for combat. They have little use outside of war.
I'd argue that late generations cruisers (such as the Sovereign class) were primarily warships. The Federation had been through the Dominion war and were still fighting the Borg.
We get a skewed viewpoint, though, in that we saw the Defiant before we saw the Sovereign, and on top of that, we never really get to see the Sovereign fight. The Lakota gets trumped up as a 'modern warship' because it holds its own against the Defiant, but we never got to see how the Defiant would have managed against a contemporary ship such as the Sovereign, or even against a Galaxy.
Modern RL warships perform non-military roles, too, but that doesn't mean they aren't primarily warships.
Either the escort is a WARSHIP in which case it can take its own hits
or its a sissy little support vessel in which case its useless
theres no middle ground
are you a fighting ship (in which case stop whining for the cruiser to soak your damage)
or are you a support ship (in which case you stay close and protect OUR vessels and we will keep you in one piece)
Either way the term Elite is misunderstood
the band of Thebes were an Elite (they rarely survived a battle)
Elite means "disposable" in the original meaning
frontline
first to die
Shield wall
That's like saying a frigate isn't a warship because it can't take the kind of hits a battleship can.
All warships are not created equal. They have different roles and purposes. Again, you know this.
The threat to make my ship attract fire like an England captain to protect escorts (regardless of MY views)
makes this a matter of line in the sand
We have to stand AGAINST suggestions to make a whole class of ships into targets just because another class feels its underweight
if you don't want to be broken don't fly a glass hammer
A solid team (with no one tanking or being a glory boy) can complete MOST missions without loss of a vessel
if they cooperate and communicate
this means when damaged pull away and call for assistance
not comm"you cruiser boy TANK for me you scum"
I can tank tact cubes in my akira without popping my warp core wad all over deep space. However, would you not agree sollvax that cruisers are far more capable of taking this pounding than my little akira, or someone's intrepid?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Im sick of the elite telling everyone else how to live
I'm an escort pilot, but I have also played cruiser eng, there is nothing wrong with cruisers, you must be doing it wrong. A experienced cruiser player is fully capable of taking down an escort.
oh plz a moderator should close this threat! 15 pages of troll feeding is enough.
post actually concerning the topic fill only a third of it, plz somebody stop this insanity.
I can tank tact cubes in my akira without popping my warp core wad all over deep space. However, would you not agree sollvax that cruisers are far more capable of taking this pounding than my little akira, or someone's intrepid?
Not to pick sides or anything, but isn't there something wrong with an escort being able to "tank" a boss?
I always thought so too.
I mean, that's what the tanks are for.
if you managed to get enough threat, you could manage to tank a tactical cube in a shuttle...since you just need to stay out of 10 km from it...it will still target you though, thus you are tanking it.
tanking is supported in STF's and encouriged, but since the threat control skill is the only thing that is related to threat generating, the system itself is not well designed. It works, but not very elegant in my opinion.
and thats basically what some people in this threat tried to discuss: ways to improve tank abilities.
a toggle just sounds weird for the very reasons someone has posted earlier on. it has the con of people potentially forgetting to turn theirs off, as well as griefing with it by playing around and toggling it on and off, playing aggro tug of war.
also, sollvax' posts are just getting more pathetic lol. all captains helmed cruisers? captain janeway's intrepid is classified as a science vessel. kirk was never a tactical officer? theres a difference between tactical officer and tactical station, just because it didn't have one doesn't invalidate the position (after all, there's no "historian station" on the enterprise yet the girl that fell for khan was a historian). escorts are the only warships? you must have missed the briefing in sto lore where it flat out says that due to these dire times (romulan civil war, klingon expansion, dominion threats, and the borg) starfleet has been forced to retrofit all their vessels for wartime, in effect making all the ships into warships.
This topic has come up with multiple ways to better tanking, without forcing you to. Cruisers as they are in-game would be ideal tanking platforms however given that they have more hull strength and can fit more armor slots, and many engineer abilities are oriented towards healing or buffing your starship. Side question: How do we report people now?
Comments
This has nothing to do with Threat Control, stop trying to derail the topic.
I don't think Cruisers should be shoehorned into being tanks, and tanks only, and I don't think adding an optional threat modifier would change this either, as if it's an entirely optional addition you could still theoretically ignore it. I do think an addition to the skill is needed however in order to better let the tanks draw aggro, especially when you have to deal with Glass Cannons that have picked up the skill. Yes they shouldn't have, but given the outrageous cost of respec tokens, and the tendency for people to still see the skill tree as split for tacs, engs, and sci's when they do their first playthrough, it should be taken into account. Plus adding the ability to allow a tank to have threat modifiers also allows it to access the damage resistance passive that goes along with it making them a more effective tank overall.
they are warships
the rest of us are not
a Smart NPC should identify the escort and fire on it first second and last
until its debris
If npcs acted entirely intelligently, we wouldn't have a chance. Agro tools can be consistent with canon, namely tricking sensors, making some targets seem more opportunistic and/or others less.
And by the way, weren't you arguing cruisers are warships? If they are not, what do you consider them? Freighters?
If they are not combat vessels, why would they be on the battlefield at all, tanking or otherwise?
well if they are so powerful then the npcs should target them ALL the time right??
or are they prepared to admit that a cruiser is tougher BETTER and more capable in variant ops??
Yes. The glass cannons need more aggro!
Agreeed. I only bring my cruiser into STF's so I can transport punch and pie to the other ships at the end of the battle. That's what the replicator is for -- it gives us non-fighting-ships something useful to do during combat. While the escorts are making with their MAXIMUM PEWPEW, I'm best to just stay out of the way and crank out jambalaya and synthale.
The dev's need to give us the option instead of starfleet or fleet logos to have a catering company logo.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
In-Universe:
Starfleet doesn't like the term warship. That's a political thing. Fact is everything but the Oberth seemed to be quite capable of holding its own in a firefight.
But none of these ships have their primary purpose in warfare. They are meant as multi-role vessels that can handle battles, yes, but are also for exploration, transportation and several other non-military roles. Escorts are the only thing that are different - their only purpose is combat. Except Starfleet didn't really want to come out and say that, so they named them Escort.
All these names are mis-leading in the end. Most Federation Cruisers are warships, e.g. in a war, they'll be send and quite capable to fight. Escorts aren't (phaser) bullet-catching body-guards, they are specialized ships that are only meant for combat. They have little use outside of war.
or its a sissy little support vessel in which case its useless
theres no middle ground
are you a fighting ship (in which case stop whining for the cruiser to soak your damage)
or are you a support ship (in which case you stay close and protect OUR vessels and we will keep you in one piece)
Either way the term Elite is misunderstood
the band of Thebes were an Elite (they rarely survived a battle)
Elite means "disposable" in the original meaning
frontline
first to die
Shield wall
I'd argue that late generations cruisers (such as the Sovereign class) were primarily warships. The Federation had been through the Dominion war and were still fighting the Borg.
We get a skewed viewpoint, though, in that we saw the Defiant before we saw the Sovereign, and on top of that, we never really get to see the Sovereign fight. The Lakota gets trumped up as a 'modern warship' because it holds its own against the Defiant, but we never got to see how the Defiant would have managed against a contemporary ship such as the Sovereign, or even against a Galaxy.
Modern RL warships perform non-military roles, too, but that doesn't mean they aren't primarily warships.
That's like saying a frigate isn't a warship because it can't take the kind of hits a battleship can.
All warships are not created equal. They have different roles and purposes. Again, you know this.
makes this a matter of line in the sand
We have to stand AGAINST suggestions to make a whole class of ships into targets just because another class feels its underweight
if you don't want to be broken don't fly a glass hammer
Why?
I consider it a challenge to see exactly how much I can take before my Fed-Whale goes all 'splodey.
Need to grind more STF's so I can get them-there MACO shields that are all the rage, though.
Silly me spent my EDC's on tetryon's that I quit using in favor of disruptors o.O
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
Well, it's not like I just drop shields just to watch the pretty explosion. Sometimes those "every man for himself" PUG'd STFs go horribly awry.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
if they cooperate and communicate
this means when damaged pull away and call for assistance
not comm"you cruiser boy TANK for me you scum"
I can tank tact cubes in my akira without popping my warp core wad all over deep space. However, would you not agree sollvax that cruisers are far more capable of taking this pounding than my little akira, or someone's intrepid?
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
do you not get that we (some of us Cruiser jocks) are sick of people trying to mess our ships up>?>?
WE PAID FOR OURS TOO
and yes a cruiser can take a pounding
but thats not a reason for it to be forced to every time
nerf the escorts
give them triple hull and a second shield generator
give them invisible purple angel wings and a go faster stripe
but leave the Cruiser alone
as to the Darwin awards
the man was wrong
ALWAYS wrong
he thinks man decends from monkeys
he has it backwards
I'm an escort pilot, but I have also played cruiser eng, there is nothing wrong with cruisers, you must be doing it wrong. A experienced cruiser player is fully capable of taking down an escort.
post actually concerning the topic fill only a third of it, plz somebody stop this insanity.
Not to pick sides or anything, but isn't there something wrong with an escort being able to "tank" a boss?
I always thought so too.
I mean, that's what the tanks are for.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
if you managed to get enough threat, you could manage to tank a tactical cube in a shuttle...since you just need to stay out of 10 km from it...it will still target you though, thus you are tanking it.
tanking is supported in STF's and encouriged, but since the threat control skill is the only thing that is related to threat generating, the system itself is not well designed. It works, but not very elegant in my opinion.
and thats basically what some people in this threat tried to discuss: ways to improve tank abilities.
But it got diverted over 15 pages now.
also, sollvax' posts are just getting more pathetic lol. all captains helmed cruisers? captain janeway's intrepid is classified as a science vessel. kirk was never a tactical officer? theres a difference between tactical officer and tactical station, just because it didn't have one doesn't invalidate the position (after all, there's no "historian station" on the enterprise yet the girl that fell for khan was a historian). escorts are the only warships? you must have missed the briefing in sto lore where it flat out says that due to these dire times (romulan civil war, klingon expansion, dominion threats, and the borg) starfleet has been forced to retrofit all their vessels for wartime, in effect making all the ships into warships.
and you leave cruisers alone and ill leave your escorts alone
we do not WANT to be forced to tank for you
However, us cruiser captains always be standing by as mobile restaurants.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I weary of the chase. Wait for me. I shall be merciful and quick."
the only "trolls" round here would be the people wanting to change OTHER peoples ships into threat magnets
So go about doing what you want and leave everyone else alone.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF
No it's not
It's a science vessel
This topic has come up with multiple ways to better tanking, without forcing you to. Cruisers as they are in-game would be ideal tanking platforms however given that they have more hull strength and can fit more armor slots, and many engineer abilities are oriented towards healing or buffing your starship. Side question: How do we report people now?